[speaker001:] Introduce Brenda who's going to speak to us on Make do and Mend and she's asked me to say that she'd be very pleased if people break in or erm sort of form some sort of dialogue with her as she goes along. If they've got anything that they wish to say or any personal reminiscences. So don't be afraid to interrupt her. And erm I'd also like to introduce Keith Mardell [LAUGHTER] from the Longman spoken corpus who's going to be recording our meeting. erm and if you this is for the Longman spokus spoken corpus project. And he will if you'd like to come along and speak to him individually afterwards he will tell you something about that. Right so I'd like to introduce Brenda, [cough] ladies and gentleman. And er she's [crashing] Oh sorry.
[speaker002:] Sorry, I thought I'd disturb [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Anyway Brenda
[speaker003:] Yes, sure. And I'm going to talk about, and make do and mend in the [banging] second world war. erm and as you'll be able to see from my introduction make do and mend wasn't something that suddenly happened in nineteen thirty nine there were sections of society in which make do and mend was a permanent and not not particularly erm welcome fact of life. [reading] Although the period between nineteen thirty nine and forty five seems to me and people of my generation to have been only yesterday. We are actually talking of events which happened over half a century ago. [] Doesn't it make us feel terribly old when we think of that. [reading] We tend to think nostalgically of John Betjeman's pre-war metroland of happy suburban families, of rosy cheeked farmer's wives with a plentiful supply of freshly baked bread, new laid eggs, strawberry jam and clotted cream.... Of the comfortable paternalism of large estates providing long and useful employment for their servants.... And an industrious and thrifty working working class supporting and supported by an extended family network. It was in fact a time when even just prior to the war many families had neither gas nor electricity to heat and light their homes, or basic public services such as running water for drinking and other purposes. There was in many urban and rural areas extreme poverty due to unemployment, bad working conditions, poor housing, inadequate diet, and chronic ill health. And for many people, make do and mend was always a harsh reality. [] Well if you remember that the Jarrow marches and the general strike weren't very many years erm you know be behind the preparations that were going on for the second world war. [reading] Even in the more affluent homes, labour saving devices we take for granted today either didn't exist or were an expensive luxury. Routine household chores like washing cleaning cooking sewing and mending were often done by women and girls employed as resident domestic servants. Or outworkers who were expected to know how to perform them to very exacting standards for very low wages. [] In in in my own family my mum and my aunt went into service you know when they were about thirteen and they used to do the most abysmal jobs for next to nothing.
[speaker004:] We used we used to have someone who we used to know who'd been in one of the big houses. And erm she you know she found it and she really enjoyed it.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Because I think she probably depended what sort of house household you were in.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And what I, from what I gather the bigger the household that people were in the more they enjoyed it cos the jobs were shared out more. But often the- when they were in small houses where they had to do everything, erm they tended to find that they were they were expected to sort of skivvy much more.
[speaker003:] Well I I was in the east end and of course where my mum and my aunt worked it was mostly sort of cleaning and scrubbing and charring and turning mangles in the back garden and all sorts of things.
[speaker004:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] [reading] War was officially declared on the third of September nineteen thirty nine, although preparations for it had begun as earlem
[speaker005:] I worked for a photographic company
[speaker003:] Yes?
[speaker005:] at that time and erm, we had a lot of German shutters and cameras in museum before September the third on September the fourth when I got to work they were all out.
[speaker003:] You had to put them all away!
[speaker005:] They were all being no they were all being taken apart
[speaker003:] Oh!
[speaker005:] and studied and er so that we could copy their
[speaker003:] Oh I see
[speaker005:] their which of course had er ceased to exist.
[speaker003:] [reading] In the shops things were much as usual because wholesalers and suppliers were still using existing stocks. To the majority of women, the fact that the famous Parisian fashion houses had closed, that silk stockings and imported luxury goods were more expensive and more difficult to obtain meant very little. The major impact was the break up of the family unit. Apart from worry about the safety of their nearest and dearest, what concerned them most was was that with the main breadwinner away, children still had to be fed and clothed and household expenses met. Worry was considered by Woman's magazine to be the main cause of an unattractive appearance. And in November nineteen thirty nine the editor wrote, anxiety is a dreadful ravager of loveliness. No man wants to come home from the war to a wife or sweetheart who shows in her face how much she has worried about him. Wash away traces of tears with warm weak tea. [LAUGHTER] A secret which saw our mothers through many a crisis. [] Well erm this anxiety neurosis erm dominated much of the printed material in women's magazines. erm, you can see in these particularly you can look at them later on. [reading] No off days now, now she must carry on. erm winning the war of freedom, winning the war with freedom, nervous strain wore out, worn out with war worry []. So th- people were most concerned that women's morale should be kept up and that one should shouldn't worry too much. And there were and erm I hope this isn't too embarrassing for the male members of the audience. erm lots of advertisements produced by Tampax, erm about worry and off days and this was because during that time menstruation was one of these taboo subjects that people didn't talk about. And many women actually did take to their beds when they were menstruating and erm sort of retired from active life and this wasn't possible then because so many women had been called up you know and they had had to be in the army or they had to work in factories and it wasn't possible for them to be absent. And so there was this sort of propaganda campaign that was done through advertising to insist that women shouldn't have off days any more. And erm Tampax were involved for another reason which I will explain later. erm the advertisements themselves called a great caused a great furore because erm Tampax was a fairly new invention and because of the sexual and social mores of the time they weren't considered very nice. And erm so that the campaign was working on two levels one to persuade women that they didn't have to take time off from working in factories, at certain times of the month and another to persuade women to use erm internal sanitary protection and as I said I will explain why later it comes into another section.... [reading] By the first months of nineteen forty one, there were ten thousand women in the armed services. And all single or childless women between twenty and thirty were liable to be directed to essential war work of some kind [] as we can see here erm com coming to the factories erm there's a woman there driving a tank another one on er a gu a gun sight. erm some in the armed forces, working in factories A R P. So I don't know if any of you are old enough to have worked in factories or have been in any in the services?
[speaker006:] Well I was an A R P warden during the war. At the age of sixteen, cos there was hardly anybody else at the place where I lived so it went down to sixteen year olds.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker007:] And my sister in law who erm my eldest brother was a lot older than me. I was six when the war started. And she actually took me on this war work. And and took me away.
[speaker003:] Yes?
[speaker007:] And erm... that was considered.
[speaker003:] Yes if you looked after a child.
[speaker007:] Yes a child.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker007:] And then when she came back and I was returned she actually went into a factory then.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker007:] But she was a dressmaker by profession. Er but then she worked went to work in a munitions factory in Kilburn and she had a marvellous time. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [reading] By the end of nineteen forty two, nearly three million married women or widows were so employed. Looking cheerful and attractive was no longer a domestic issue but a matter of vital national importance. It was a duty and [] I just have to take this one down. You'll have to excuse this... picking up and putting down of, papers.... Here we see an advertisement for Eyesilmar make up. [reading] Beauty is your duty, No Surrender [] by Yardley.... erm [reading] figure precautions [] by Berlei, manufacturers of corsets. And erm [reading] fire-fighting but her manicure is perfect [] [LAUGHTER] [reading] Home front hands can still be charming, tangee lipstick for beauty on duty... Now foundation garments were considered to be an essential part of the trim active image which it was every woman's duty to project []. So you mustn't, not only mustn't you worry you've got to be perfectly made up and have a super figure you know while you're making tanks or or whatever. erm A Berlei bulletin and I've got a this is one of the Berlei di
[speaker008:] Don't you think that a lot of the advertisements are just like advertising today, wanting to sell the garments
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker008:] rather I don't think the advertising industry had such a strong sense of duty but I assume
[speaker003:] Oh no, no, they were
[speaker008:] They just wanted to sell their stuff
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker008:] I think.
[speaker003:] But also of course there was this propaganda from from the government you know that erm they'd just got to keep up morale and this was one one way as you will see in a minute of how they did it. [reading] Even the government realized the importance of cosmetics in keeping up morale amongst women workers. Propaganda posters instructed them to, put your best face forward. And in August nineteen forty two the Ministry of Supply issued Royal Ordnance factory workers a special supply of high grade make up, and a booklet entitled Look to your Looks. Women's magazines were full of ideas on how to make the best of one's appearance in spite of the meagre supplies of make up available in the shops. Woman's Own, March the seventh nineteen forty wrote, do remember that when he in capital letters, comes back, he will want to kiss the hands that have worked for him and all our brave men. It will be easy enough to bleach them with some Milk of Magnesia the night before he comes home. [LAUGHTER]... Lipstick stubs were mixed with oil or cream to extend their life or to make creme rouge. Black boot polish was used instead of mascara, Sore eyes and tired skin refreshed with cucumber skins and of course plenty of raw fruit and vegetables for inner cleanliness []. Once they'd done with our, figures and our faces then we'd got to look for our innards and so we had had to have inner cleanliness. [reading] In nineteen forty one the use of silk stockings was banned, and by nineteen forty two all hosiery was rationed to members of the public. Advise was given on how to colour the legs with substances such as cold tea, coffee, gravy browning, cocoa powder etcetera with the seams drawn in with pencil, crayon or burnt wood or cork []. I remember having to do that for my mum. She stood on a chair and I used to have to draw the lines round the back of her legs with a pencil. And there's an advertisement here for Cyclax stocking cream for people who could afford it. There it is in a beautiful presentation box.... [reading] As the war progressed beauty products became virtually unobtainable and a healthy mind and body were considered to be more of an asset to the war office, to the war effort, than a pretty face and soft skin. Women and Beauty in April nineteen forty three wrote -there is a special kind of beauty preparation that can't be bought in a single shop in the world because you must make it yourself from spirit, heart and simple courage and you make it fresh each day. War time health propaganda from the Ministry of Food told women through an article in Woman's Own nineteen forty one, you've got to look lovely for his leave. Do eat for beauty. Liver is your meat. It isn't rationed either []. Oh now we come to some... advertisements about food.... erm somebody's got some books here that er... we can look at. We were we were instructed to dig for victory and so we've got er erm a gardening guide... And a book that I've also got called We'll eat Again which is full of war time recipes. And you might like to look at these later, these later. And erm some immediately post-war recipe books and I'm sure you know if you'd like to look at them after I've finished talking you might even remember some of the er... the er
[speaker009:] My wife still uses the [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] So, so do I! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] You referred to the fact of erm, er items that weren't on the, on the rations such as liver.
[speaker003:] Yes?
[speaker009:] Of course you had to get them.
[speaker003:] Yes of course.
[speaker009:] And we had a during the periods you mentioned we had er lived in a village, and we had a very very honest er grocer. Who one day we thought well about time we had something so I think we said to him er about these things off the ration can't can't get, what happens to them? Well we have them he said [LAUGHTER]. And I think that that shows that er you know the distribution of er non rationed food was not quite what
[speaker010:] Well it was the black market as well wasn't there?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker011:] I was going to say there was a flourishing black market wasn't
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker009:] Yes.
[speaker010:] Yes I I can remember as a child my grandmother's erm, family all lived in the east end and I can remember that the you know on the occasions that they used to come down and see us there was always tins of fruit and all sorts of
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker010:] goodies that they'd got because they all worked in the docks! [LAUGHTER]. We used to look forward to them coming.
[speaker003:] Fell off a crate did it?
[speaker012:] Certainly all over rural Essex everybody was killing pigs and everything surreptitiously.
[speaker003:] Yeah well you were you were allowed actually later on to
[speaker012:] you could kill a pig if you kept, you kept half of it and gave
[speaker003:] That's right, yes.
[speaker012:] for your own consumption but there was a lot of people doing it as, as erm illicitly.
[speaker003:] Illicitly. Yeah. Well food rationing began in January nineteen forty and I'm sure you're all familiar with with ration books. I'll pass them round. You can give them back to me
[speaker013:] I've got one nineteen eighteen.
[speaker003:] Oh, ooh. [LAUGHTER] Er you can give them back to me afterwards.... Have you ever seen a ration book?
[speaker014:] No...
[speaker015:] Did they have blue ones for children?
[speaker016:] Yes.
[speaker015:] Or green
[speaker003:] Can't can't remember what colour mine was. I don't think I ever saw it.... [reading] Well by nineteen forty two rationing had been extended to include most foodstuffs except fresh fruit and vegetables. Rationing or quota systems were later to extend to include soap and soap products, fuel, clothing, and most dress and furnishing fabric. Furniture and bedding was supplied on a docket application system. Nineteen forty one was the poorest year for food production. The nation could no longer support the expense of feeding livestock. And farmers had to grow more cereal and vegetable crops. Everyone who had even the tiniest piece of spare ground was encouraged to grow salads, vegetables and fruit and to dig for victory. It was to the Women's Institutes that the government turned to organize communal preservation of home grown produce throughout the land. This was backed up by articles in magazines and newspapers showing the housewife how to preserve fruit, salt beans, make pickles, chutneys, vinegars and sauces. Store root vegetables in sand and dry fruits such as apples and pears []. I remember my mother having erm pieces of wood with apples rings on that used to be dried in the oven. [reading] Surplus eggs could be pickled in borax or water glass. In their December nineteen forty one issue of Home and Country magazine, the Institute reported that two thousand six hundred and fifty preserving centres had been opened. And over one thousand pounds of fruit had been saved. And the demand for jam jars had been so great that even salvage dumps and cemeteries had been searched for extra supplies []. I can just imagine Women's Institute ladies creeping out in the night to pinch jam jars from from graveyards.
[speaker017:] One of the things that was popular was that the smaller things like rabbit clubs when people could then get food for them officially if they did that.
[speaker003:] Erm Yes
[speaker017:] I remember one of my aunts was belonged to one. And didn't really know anything about rabbits and I know my aunt it's a sort of family story that she took her doe to the buck and the buck had babies. [LAUGHTER].. That's the sort of thing that the government encouraged.
[speaker003:] That's right. Yes, groups, yes. [reading] Women who made their own preserves were able to obtain extra sugar in lieu of their jam ration. And those who couldn't obtain fresh fruit substituted vegetables producing carrot marmalade, marrow and ginger jam. Jellies flavoured with beetroot or mint and parsley honey []. We we've got most of those recipes here erm in my book. [reading] There was even a recipe for lemon curd using vegetable marrow but no eggs or lemons []. Goodness know what that tasted like!.
[speaker018:] We used to do erm we used to have erm a girl at school, when I was at school in east east London Stepney erm who used to bring mock banana sandwiches and that was made with mashed, parsnip and erm some sort of erm banana essence.
[speaker003:] Yeah?
[speaker018:] And erm... they tasted I mean we all used to have a taste of it and it tasted quite nice!
[speaker003:] Well I I
[speaker018:] With marge
[speaker003:] Yes well in in the east end you bananas probably weren't very plentiful and that was the poorer people anyway.
[speaker019:] nobody had bananas, first bananas came in about forty five.
[speaker020:] Came a long way didn't they?
[speaker019:] one of these ships docked isn't it? Cos one of them brought bananas in.
[speaker003:] So we have erm recipes here for bottling without sugar. Oatmeal sausages. Walton pie, the infamous Walton pie. erm... carrot cookies, potato cakes lots of potato recipes. Eggless sponge, eggless fatless sponge.... [reading] The government issued food bulletins in newspapers and magazines and on radio to teach the rudiments of food nutrition []. And as, as we said before, erm, many of the, erm people who lived in the poorer parts of erm the country, whether in urban or rural En erm England didn't really know about basic nutrition and and health I mean you just ate what was available but you didn't know why and so the government started this campaign to introduce you know knowledge about diet and how important it was. [reading] Housent
[speaker021:] There was a little poem, I don't know why I remember it but it was, if you have the will to win, cook potatoes in their skin. For the very sight of peelings deeply hurts Lord Walton's feelings. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] There's just there's a Potato Pete poem up there somewhere actually. [reading] Potatoes became the basis of practically every meal. They were grated, and used to lighten puddings, batters and pastry and potato water thickened soups and stews. Carrots and saccharin were substituted for sugar. Posters showing pot-, Potato Pete and his companion Clara Carrot became household icons []. erm... there's there's Potato Pete and there's Clara Carrot, and there's Potato Pete again. Oh yes here's the song of Potato Pete [reading] potatoes new, potatoes old, potatoes in a salad cold, potatoes baked or mashed or fried, potatoes whole potatoes pied. Enjoy them all including chips, remembering spuds don't come on ships.... Flour for domestic use was home produced and much heavier in texture than that milled from imported Canadian me- wheat which was banned in nineteen forty two. It needed more liquid, a strong raising agent and longer cooking. Nevertheless recipes abounded for eggless, sugarless, fatless, fruitless cakes, sweet and savory pastries, puddings and biscuits. The national loaf was rather an unappetizing grey colour [] I don't know if anybody remember the national loaf. [reading] And it was coarse textured. People complained that it crumbled badly and couldn't be cut into thin slices, so Woman's Own recommended that the bread knife should be dipped in boiling water in between cutting each slice. Unfortunately, a diet high in carbohydrates meant that some women not only put on weight but also stopped wearing their corsets []. Which caused a, a lot of trouble, particularly in the Lady magazine. And Woman's Own. They were strongly reprimanded by Woman's Own whose editor made the strange assumption that large hips were synonymous with big feet, and she said [reading] the well corsetted woman has a good figure that will last her for life, and feet many times smaller than those of the uncontrolled [] [LAUGHTER]. Well that put you in your place if you ate too many potatoes. [reading] With America's entry int o the war some foods were imported under the lease lend agreement. These included soya products, dried haricot beans, baked beans, dried eggs which were very popular and tinned pressed meats of vague origins branded Spam, Prem and Tang [] somebody's grinning there, do you remember those [reading] which could be eaten cold or cooked in various ways []. Spam fritters, yes. And mashed spam and baked bean sandwiches were another favourite.
[speaker022:] In our erm canteen at work until quite recently used to do spam fritters.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker022:] I mean they're not they haven't sort of died out
[speaker003:] No, no
[speaker022:] They were very great favourites at school dinners weren't they?
[speaker003:] That's right. [reading] One of their most useful features was the thick layer of pure white fat with which they were coated [] when you took it out of the tin there was this layer of fat round the edge. [reading] It could be scraped off and used for frying and baking. And dried egg was very versatile. One tablespoon full of powder mixed with two of water was the equivalent of one average sized whole egg []. Well I've recently seen that they've started selling it in Sainsbury's again. I haven't I haven't bought it but I've seen it. I think it was since the salmonella scare some time ago. [reading] To eke out the small meat ration, people formed pig clubs [] which is what you were talking about. [reading] They would group together to buy a pig to feed, fatten and slaughter. They were allowed to keep the head, trotters, offal and a proportion of the meat. The rest was retained by the Ministry of Food. Pig bins were provided in each road in urban areas for household waste and these would be collected usually by a pig woman with a horse and cart. The pig feeding scheme was so successful that even with rationing, the amount of bacon consumed in nineteen forty one was greater than the annual pre-war consumption per head. It was expensive, however, and a cheaper substitute was available called Macon made from pressed, sliced mutton. Sea food became scarce as fishing was hazardous and most of the beaches were mined. Icelandic salt cod was cheap, but transport and storage facilities were so unreliable that it was often rotten by the time it reached the housewife. Tinned pilchards were only obtainable on the points system. Some Canadian tinned salmon did reach the shops but it was very expensive. Fresh salmon and freshwater fish were not rationed but were price fixed and like game and poultry, usually became part of the black economy. Preparing good nourishing family meals was made even more difficult when in nineteen forty housewives were asked to contribute cooking utensils for the "saucepans into Spitfire s" campaign. In nineteen forty three the Board of Trade produced the kettlepan []. The kettlepan was erm a sauce- a thing like a saucepan with a a kettle that fitted on to the top so that you could boil your vegetables in the saucepan and boil the kettle at the same time. The lid the lid of the saucepan became the kettle. [reading] But resourceful housewives already had a far superior version. A stew was put to cook in a saucepan, on top of which was a colander where a pudding, wrapped in a cloth, was steamed. This was covered by a biscuit tin lid on top of which was a kettle filled with water for an after dinner cup of tea and the washing up. One woman wrote to Woman's Own describing how she fitted her garden sieve, lined with a piece of clean rag, into the top of her copper. And she was able to steam a complete meal while the washing was boiling. [LAUGHTER].... In nineteen forty one on June the first clothes rationing began, and for that year twenty coupons were issued. The amount of coupons needed for each garment depended on the amount of material and labour involved in its manufacture. In nineteen forty two the Board of Trade introduced utility clothes, recognized by the symbol cc forty one []. Here we are.... I'm still using tablecloths with that mark on!
[speaker013:] I've still got a raincoat.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. Not from the first world war!
[speaker013:] No, not from
[speaker003:] [reading] This trademark nicknamed the two cheeses was an acronym for civil clothes nineteen forty one. Eight top designers were asked to submit designs for four basic items. A coat, suit, winter dress and cotton house-dress. Each garment had to conform to regulations on yardage and use of approved materials. Restrictions were placed on the number of pleats and buttons on new garments. The width of seams, the depths of hems. Decorative attachments were banned, and the utility range was later extended to include clothing for men and children []. These are... two of the utility garments. This was a sort of a battle, can you see?, a battledress jacket.... And a plain skirt and a coat and a siren suit.... And um, if you'd like to have a look at this book, Utility Furniture and Fashion, later you can see some more utility clothes.... [reading] On the fifth of September nineteen thirty nine a control of timber ordered was made by the Ministry of Supply, followed by controls on all raw materials used by the furniture industry and allied trades. Furniture manufacturers could only operate under licence to the government and most of their products were designated for the defence of the realm. By July nineteen forty timber supplies for the home market were withdrawn completely []. And that ma of course erm posed problems for people just getting married or setting up home or people who had lost their homes due to bombing. [reading] After the blitz on London in September nineteen forty, the government introduced a scheme whereby payments for damage to the furniture of persons earning less than four hundred pounds a year would be made, up to one hundred percent of the damage []. Four hundred pounds a year then was quite a lot of money. [reading] The result was an unprecedented demand for second hand furniture, the price of which quickly rose to exorbitant levels on the black market. By the end of the year the government was forced to change the situation and announced it would produce a range of standard emergency furniture for bombed persons. Basically it resembled that issued to hospitals, canteens and similar institutions. Once again women's magazines offered advice. Shorten the legs of that ugly iron bedstead, hack off the top and bottom rails and send them for salvage []. You'd still got to look beautiful and have your corsets on and not look worried while you're doing all this hacking. [reading] The result will be a low, modern, divan. And they also said that astonishingly pretty results can be attained with whitewood furniture when painted in pastel colours. In nineteen forty two, a range of utility furniture was produced comprising twenty two articles in two qualities and three designs, each conforming to predetermined criteria []. There are some utility furniture designs up here. In fact I think you can probably still pick them up in antique shops and second hand shops and probably a lot of people have still got some.... [reading] In the beginning priority was given to those setting up home for the first time, families with young children, and people who had lost their homes and furniture through enemy action. The furniture was well designed and proved very popular. Other ranges and designs were introduced to cope with even heavier demands and with minor amendments, utility furniture was still being produced at the time of the festival of Britain in nineteen fifty one. Utility furnishing and upholstery fabrics were also produced to complement the furniture []. These are two... designs I you probably all recognized them when you see them, they were very popular.... Can you all see?... Yes it was it was a very coarse fabric and if you'd got animals they te it tended to claw.... [reading] The designs had to be small to avoid wastage in matching. And only four colours or combinations of four colours, rust blue green and natural were allowed. Good Housekeeping gave advice on home decorating. You must keep to light, plain colours. Parchment, light blue or green or pale ochre. Very sound advice because these were the only colours available anyway. It wasn't possible to buy wallpaper, but very decorative effects were achieved with government issue distemper by using bi-colour techniques of stippling, ragging, combing and stencilling, which are now popular again [].
[speaker023:] I remember curtains erm muslin curtains my mother made. And she died them pink and she, I can't remember what I think it was some sort of, erm cooking net that she bought. It wasn't real muslin but she made it out of this material. And she made a frill and she died them pink.
[speaker003:] Possibly it was the erm the muslin that that cows and things came in to the butchers.
[speaker023:] Yes, yes, I think it was.
[speaker003:] Sort of long tubular bits.
[speaker023:] Yes.
[speaker013:] One of the snags with the colours you mentioned, er was it red, er blue and green or reddish colour?
[speaker003:] Yes, rusty red.
[speaker013:] Yeah, rusty red. What happened was that I mean you made curtains er the rusty red was affected by light, so eventually you got a curtain where where the red spots had been there were holes. Remember that.
[speaker003:] Was that, was that so?
[speaker013:] Yes.
[speaker003:] It affected the fabric, I didn't know that.
[speaker013:] Yes, the red colour was always er and er this, so that the curtain had to be scrapped.
[speaker023:] kitchen curtains
[speaker013:] Yeah you had kitchen curtains
[speaker023:] that's right and all the red went into little holes.
[speaker003:] All the red went in holes. Oh that, that's strange.
[speaker024:] Our dining room chairs were covered in Rexine too. Back seat and backing
[speaker003:] That's right. Yes. And you could, you could push, push the seats up. Right so that's oh these are some erm designs for erm... scarves and erm other accessories produced in the utility room. This is the victory design. And it's got victory written in small letters all over it and of course the v for victory and this this particular design here has got items of clothing and the number of coupons required for each item scattered over.... And now we're coming on to your actual make do and mend. [reading] Women were encouraged by the Board of Trade to join make do and mend clubs []. This is one of the government posters. And there was this awful woman, Mrs so and so, that was always telling women what to do and, she she wasn't very popular because some of the things that she suggested that women did to make do and mend were so tedious and time consuming. And they were encouraged to erm form make do and mend clubs where basic sewing skills and repair techniques were taught. As well as how to unpick a faded coat or dress and sew it up again inside out, that was one of the things mrs so and so suggested. [reading] Worn parts of old dresses were replaced with contrasting fabric and unfashionable outer and under garments were unpicked and remade in more fashionable styles. Children's clothes were made from remnants, old garments which could not be otherwise adapted. Sheets were turned sides to middle and worn blankets cut up to make sleeping bags for children. Housewives were advised to turn pillows over every morning when making the beds and the pillowcases would then last twice as long. All resources such as needles which were scarce, sewing machines, thread etcetera were shared. And buttons, zips, hooks and eyes, press studs etcetera were carefully sorted and retained. When unpicking a garment the lengths of thread or cotton were saved for mending and tacking. And scraps of thick woollen material were knotted into sacking to make split mats or hearth rugs. Magazines gave hints on how to m ake pretty collars and cuffs from scraps of unwanted material because we still had to look pretty. And trimmings using beads from broken necklaces, coloured pipe cleaners, sea shells, acorn cob nut and beech nut cups. Following the example of her majesty the queen, old felt hats were remodelled and leftover pieces mounted on cardboard to make buttons, or cut into interesting shapes for trimming belts and handbags knitted or crocheted in dish cloth cotton which was unrationed. Instructions were also given on making pretty matching covers for ones ration book and identity card and gas masks so you had a complete ensemble these are these are the belts and erm [break in recording] wore blouses and dresses again. [] And here is a petticoat made from parachute nylon.
[speaker024:] So did you get extra coupons if you were getting married or were you just expected to make do?
[speaker003:] Er you made do. You you had cur you wore curtains or parachute nylon or borrowed something.
[speaker025:] Parachute silk was a sort
[speaker026:] We think you did have extra coupons when you got married.
[speaker003:] I don't I can't well I don't know I I don't think you did.
[speaker013:] No see the material all people used was the nightdress nightdress material. The wedding dress.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker027:] Have you got anything about children's toys, cos they were in terrible short supply
[speaker003:] Umm yes I do have I haven't brought it with me but I do have a book at home that that erm in that showed you know the pieces of fabric that you had left over from doing all this, erm I've got a pattern that my mother actually used to make things that were very are now very unpopular for my children. She used to make golliwogs out of old black stockings. And it showed you how to make things like that.
[speaker027:] Some toys you could get, the German prisoners used to make didn't they?
[speaker003:] I don't know, is that true?
[speaker027:] Yes, locally a lot of people got you know the, off the German prisoners of war used to make toys. And although they weren't allowed to sell them for money, people could give them objects, could give them things like coffee and things like that
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker027:] in exchange and they used to do quite a trade in, cos a lot of them were quite skilled at making toys. I mean they were on farms all round here and erm people used to, they used to do a lot of toys. People used to get them for their children and
[speaker003:] Like the French prisoners in the Napoleonic wars, used to do exactly the same thing. [reading] The manufacture of silk stockings was banned in December nineteen forty because silk was needed for parachutes. The only stockings available to buy were a thick brown lisle. These were not popular and as most women wore trousers or dungarees for the war work, hand knitted long socks or ankle socks were more comfortable and convenient. Those who were still fortunate enough to own a pair of silk stockings were given tips on how to make them last as long as possible. They should be kept in an airtight jar, and rinsed in methylated spirits before wearing. Colourless nail varnish should be applied to the suspender points and toe join as well as ladders or snags [] so that if you got a little ladder or a snag you put colourless nail varnish on it. [reading] Protective footlets could be made from the feet of old stockings. Odd ones could be died, bleached and died in tea or coffee to make a new matching pair. Stockings that were past repair were used as a base for the new victory roll hairstyle. After the suspender belt, suspender welt and foot had been cut off, the stocking was tied round the head and the hair rolled over and tucked into a v shape. And this style lent itself very well to uniform hats and caps. Pre-war underwear was available from high class shops but was far too expensive for most women. Utility underwear was strong and serviceable but totally lacking in glamour. And restrictions on yardage in use of elastic also applied. Cami knickers and french knickers became popular because they didn't take much material and were economic in coupons. Magazines gave instructions on how to make a pair of knickers from two silk chiffon scarves. Lightweight silky curtains reappeared as pyjamas, nightgowns, underwear and even wedding dresses [] which answers your question about wedding dresses. [reading] Patterns of knitted underwear for all the family were also available. In the immediate post-war years, supp lies of white or yellow nylon parachute material were released to the public. It was sold coupon free in eleven foot long triangular panels. Special patterns were produced in magazines and newspapers and instead of quoting the width and yardage needed for a garment, they stated the number of parachute panels you needed. The W V S and other voluntary services ran exchange centres where unwanted clothes, household utensils and small pieces of furniture were allocated a sliding scale of points which could be exchanged for other goods of equal value. Making do with footwear was a problem, especially for mothers of young children. Wear on leather soled shoes was saved by sticking on over soles made from pieces of old tyre inner tubes. In nineteen forty three wooden soled, wedge heeled shoes were introduced in the utility range and the Lady magazine gave hints on how to walk in them. If you find yourself walking a bit duck footed, concentrate on placing your toes in a pigeon-toed position and you will find that your muscles will soon cooperate []. Well I think we have to stop there for a little while because it's nine o'clock, and I've just got erm a few more pictures to show you later on so if we have a short break now, I think the coffee ladies are ready. And erm you can come and have a look at my books or talk amongst yourselves and we'll resume later.... [talk in background]

[speaker001:] Ladies and gentlemen, we just before we get on with the second part of the meeting when erm, meeting erm I think I ought to tell you that erm one of our committee members died a very short while back. I don't know how many of you knew him. And that was Arthur Platon who died, died very suddenly. And the erm committee was represented at the funeral. And he'd been on our committee for I think it was about about three years was that right? And erm he'd er contributed quite a lot and so we were very s, it's a very sad loss. And erm, anyway, I'm, I'm sorry to have to tell you that but erm now we'll get on with the second half of the meeting. So Brenda.
[speaker002:] Thank you.... Well some of you have brought some erm interesting items along. Haven't had time to look at them all. erm I'm not going to keep you very long because I've nearly finished talking so erm when I've finished perhaps you would like to bring some of your things up and put them on the table and we can all have a look at them.... And let's make do and mend. [reading] Knitters unpicked old jumpers, washed or seamed the unravelled wool and reknitted it. The tops of knitted socks with warm toes and heels were unpicked and reknitted with stripes of contrasting wool. The wool saved was used to knit new toes and heels. The seams of badly fitting or misshapen woollens were unpicked and the garment washed and reblocked. Sleeves wearing thin at the elbows were shortened. Any spare balls of wool were pooled to make children's clothes or squares for patchwork blankets. Best way patterns produced some interesting variations on the knitted square []. erm I found recently found a Bestway pattern book and this is one of the pa the war time patterns they produced which is sort of shell shaped squares for patchwork and it really looks very effective. I've I've got a knitting machine and I worked out how to do it on my knitting machine and made a cot blanket for my newest grandchild and it does really look very effective. So if anybody does patchwork knitting or makes blankets or anything for charity and they'd like to give me a ring any time, I could give you the pattern.... [reading] Woollens that were too worn or felted to be unpicked were cut up to make hats, body warmers and bed socks to wear in the shelter. Patterns also appeared for snoods... snoods, turbans, and berets. Anyone who could hold a pair of knitting needles was expected to knit socks, balaclava helmets and scarves for the fighting men []. And here we have some of the erm patterns that appeared, patterns for women in the services, patterns for men and women, there's the balaclava helmet.... And this is a child's and bonnet to make out of an old felted woolly. I think it looks rather revolting. Sort of thing my mum used to make me and I hated.
[speaker003:] At the age of nine we, the whole class, knitted gloves for themselves. And I can still remember the pattern. I know how to do the same pattern. I remember a little boy, I've got on a picture with me he was a very very poor child and he made the best gloves in the class and it was a real sort of accolade for him.
[speaker002:] Well we, we, I remember about your age and... having to knit sea boot stockings with very very thick, white wool. And knitting needles that to my little fingers were like rolling pins you know and they were long and they got under my arms and I always used to have a tummy ache on knitting day cos I didn't want to go to school....
[speaker004:] So that that was make do and mend knitting....
[speaker005:] [reading] The winter of nineteen forty was extremely bad, in fact most people say that it was the worst winter of the war. People sleeping in shelters and cellars found them damp, dark and cold. Blitz tips in a December issue of Woman's Own suggested lighting a candle inside an inverted flower pot and standing an enamel jug mug of water on the top. This would take the chill off the shelter and provide hot water for a cup of tea in the morning. Other suggestions included using hot bricks as feet warmers and sewing newspaper inside your corsets. Between September nineteen forty one and June nineteen forty two, nearly two and a half million homes had been damaged or destroyed. Sixty percent of the population of London alone were made homeless and during the war there were sixty million changes of address. At the height of the B one and B two attacks in nineteen forty four, more than two hundred thousand homes per day were made unfit for habitation []. erm this little map here... shows a very small area of West Ham where I lived. And all these little spots... denote some kind of bomb or landmine. And that is only within about... two miles you know an area of about two miles square. So if you multiply that by the area of London plus all the other big cities that were damaged and the coastline.
[speaker006:] They still find them quite frequently don't they?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] building si building developers and they sort of stop because they've found another unexploded bomb.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker007:] I went to my old school in West Ham recently to talk to the children there and er the master to me that they've got a bomb trail. And that's part of the geography...
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker007:] their course. They walk round from the school and they've got a map of the places where the bombs dropped so
[speaker002:] Wh which school was that?
[speaker007:] This was Home Road School now Cumberland School. But it's been demolished this year. That's in Plaistow. And er... erm they saw me on the you know television programme and they asked me to go go to the school and
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[speaker007:] talk to them about er pre-war period there and er I very much enjoyed it. I got a lot of letters from the children there and which was very gratifying. The only difference they were very well written but they were signed you know Mohammed and [LAUGHTER] which were names I used to go there. I started nineteen eighteen
[speaker002:] Yes it's the s same school in West Ham that I went to too
[speaker007:] I don't know whether other other places have have erm kept that as a part of the I don't know if it's in the national curriculum.
[speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER]. Any, well you'll be interested in there I've got my own personal bombs on there. The one that damaged the house in which we lived.... [reading] between erm oh by the end of the war one in every three dwellings had been demolished. Millions of people throughout the country lived in buildings which were either due for demolition because they were unsafe, or had received only emergency repairs. Heating then was difficult owing to fuel rationing and erratic supplies of gas, electricity and water. Washing and cleaning also caused major problems as soap was rationed, scouring powder in short supply, and dusters, dishcloths and tablecloths were no longer being manufactured. Crushed eggshells were mixed with scouring agents to make them go further and pot scour scourers were made from old silk stockings crocheted into squares. A mixture of stale tea leaves and vinegar was used for washing floors and paintwork. Scraps of soap were saved, grated, moistened with a little oil and water and pressed into a block []. And I had a catalogue the other day from a, an environmental erm agency it wasn't Greenpeace it was something like that [cough] that were ac actually now offering these soap savers that we used to have in the war to press your bits of soap into... [reading] Magazines were full of tips for saving fuel. Lightbulbs would give out more light if they were washed every week in soapy water. Water tanks and pipes should be lagged with whatever material was available. Coal dust should be collected up into strong brown bags, dampened down and used as coal. Tin cans filled with a mixture of old tea leaves and coal dust gave a lovely glow and plenty of heat. Further economies could be made by using as few rooms as possible. Single people or couples living alone were encouraged to join a cookery pool, saving fuel by pooling rations and take it in turns to cook meals for other people in the group. Only five inches of water was allowed for baths. In nineteen forty two The Lady proudly announced that the president of the Board of Trade had cut his large bath towels in half and he hoped his sacrifice would be repeated all over the country [].
[speaker006:] Wasn't much fun either. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] What about the British restaurant Brenda?
[speaker002:] Yes that was, that was right erm... there was a limit to how much you could spend as well wasn't there? Five shillings wasn't it that you could, no meals allowed if you ate out, you weren't allowed to spend more than five shillings. And the British restaurant was one, one and six wasn't it? You could have a complete meal for one and sixpence.
[speaker005:] And that wasn't on rations was it?
[speaker002:] No, no. You had to have what they gave you and it was pretty revolting from what I remember.
[speaker006:] Do you remember Tommy Hanley's though, er comment. He goes into a restaurant and he says oh the waiter erm let me see the menu and he looks at the menu and said right, he said. The waiter said no all off oh send me the usual toast. Which is what often happened. All you could get would be toast
[speaker002:] Well I, I remember once going into er a British restaurant... because it was my birthday and there was trifle... on the menu and trifle was some sort of weird jelly thing that was thi instead of sponge it was stale bread... and I think it was sort of stewed apple and mock cream but the fact that it it was my birthday and it was trifle you know I just sort of sat there like a queen but I think I'm sure that it tasted quite revolting. It looked horrible. And there used to be sort of a mush made from haricot beans too... that people said were baked beans and they weren't it was just sort of white mushy erm white haricot beans with a sort of red colouring poured over the top. But I think you could you could have whatever you could eat for one and sixpence in the, in the British restaurant. Excuse me I've got... not exactly hay-fever but I think I'm going to be sneezing for a few minutes. [noseblow]
[speaker006:] Going back to the, the blitz when we were bombed out we erm had to during the day we lived in my aunt's house mother and father and me. So we had the dining room and a lounge. And at night our bedroom was the grandstand of Walthamstow dogs st stadium. Underneath the grandstand.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker006:] So I've often wondered how safe that was! I I don't think it was full. But it felt good. I mean there was a lot of concrete in it.
[speaker002:] Oh we went I remember
[speaker008:] So we all walked down the corner there we all had our beds round there everything was laid out.
[speaker002:] Buildings. People used the underground and of course there were the, there were the erm Morrison shelters weren't there that you you had indoors.
[speaker007:] Well if anybody wants to see one I've still got my my Morrison shelter.... Well it's got all the basic structure and half the top so if anyone's interested in seeing shelter I've got
[speaker006:] Where've you got that?
[speaker007:] In my garage [LAUGHTER]. It's it's a marvellous work bench cos it's very
[speaker003:] Oh is that what you use it for?
[speaker007:] We have used it in anger oh yes. It was used in anger because we were living near Sevenoaks when the V one was over the doodlebugs and er they positioned er one of these barrage balloons just near our house you see. And er... one or two got caught up occasionally now and then so we did erm have to go underneath because I was earning too much to get a free one it cost me seven pounds ten and I've got the receipt for it. It is really my own it wasn't given by the government I paid for it. So I justify that one. I think
[speaker002:] [reading] Britain directed more of her resources towards the war effort than any other nation including Germany. Recycling of waste was essential and it was the housewives' job another job for her to salvage from her home such things as paper, bones, tin cans, old gramophone records, photographs and negatives, jam jars, rubber and rags. Each category had to be put in a different container and taken to a collection centre [].... And here we've got the pig club and the pig bin with its pig food.
[speaker007:] Have you heard of the Tottenham pudding? Tottenham pudding. There was a campaign after the war to bring back Tottenham puddings they had somebody in Harlow who was
[speaker002:] Well what was, what, what was Tottenham pudding then.
[speaker007:] Tottenham pudding was a er a mixture, to, for feeding animals
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker007:] which was collected and
[speaker003:] pigs particularly wasn't it?
[speaker007:] Pigs, yes. And er the... it was a sort of for, I remember erm only a few years ago in Harlow we had a discussion group there was somebody there and I I think I've still got the piece about that. They erm wanted to bring it back cos they thought that this was excellent all this erm purpose erm nowadays
[speaker002:] Yes, well l think, I think so too
[speaker003:] That's how Biss Brothers started out wasn't it? They used to collect the Tottenham pudding. Well they my parents used to have it you see cos they kept pigs
[speaker007:] That's it.
[speaker003:] and it was Bisses who used to bring round Tottenham pudding. Used to get deliveries of it for the pigs that's how they started up. They used to bring it round in metal things
[speaker007:] bring back Tottenham puddings
[speaker003:] and my dad had you know the stuff he used to find in it cutlery all the tea towels and plates and everything else. It was, it was used used to be stuff from these restaurants and they weren't particular what they threw in it was all these knives and things [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But we used to have these, these bins at the end of each road and we used to have to put any scrap or unwanted food in. And then we had this pig woman who, who erm who wore men's clothes and a big cap and she had a horse and cart. And she used to come round at night and collect this stuff. And it used to smell revolting.
[speaker006:] I think probably that was probably London but in the north I lived on the north east coast in a very small town and some of I mean my memories are quite different in a way. I mean I remember the waste paper which was organized by the girl guides and the boy scouts in the town. erm... very much that was the whole Sunday
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah well as I say I I lived in the east end of London and that that's how it was done there but I dare say that other places organized it
[speaker006:] It probably wasn't economic in the very small town you know probably you know I don't, I don't remember people keeping pigs but if it was collected it probably was collected by the bin at the back door.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Well it was understood that Bisses got most of theirs from restaurants, and all restaurants I think had to sort of hand over all their waste for the war or something.
[speaker005:] That's what my, I say my father bred er pigs and supplied the Ministry of Food and I can remember that he had a contract to collect all the erm waste from schools in the area. But erm they say that he had used to go and collect it and that was what was fed to the pigs.
[speaker002:] So as regards waste material [reading] fifteen tons of scrap metal would make one medium sized tank or two bombers. From nineteen forty a compulsory campaign deprived public parks, gardens and squares of their ornamental railings and private homes of their front gates and fences. All aluminium saucepans including those from Buckingham Palace here collected in July nineteen forty but unfortunately it was not of the right grade and so housewives then suffered for the rest of the war and having to cook with inferior pans. After Japan's entry into the war all imports of rubber from the far east were suspended. Woman's Own produced a rubber rhyme which sounds rather vulgar to encourage its readers to part with their old rubber corsets []. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the sort of rubber corsets that were worn in those days. erm those of you who had mothers who were young in the twenties will probably recall seeing them because they were rather tubular almost like a rubber tube, with small holes punched in for circulation. And they were the sort of corsets that gave you the the straight boyish look that was necessary for the clothes of the twenties and the early thirties which were cut on the cross. And so a lot of women continued to wear these erm rubber garments. In fact on erm on one of the erm sheets that I've brought up there's a notice of how to repair them with bits of cycle inner tube. [LAUGHTER].... So the erm Woman's Own rubber rhyme erm begins [reading] Aahs for the runs and I modestly blush, aahs for the runs in your girdle. May I suggest if the thing is worn out it will help us to jump the last hurdle.... Paper was collected in every form. It was desperately needed. In the first months of the war Herbert Morrison had requisitioned thousands of papier mache coffins for emergency use in bombing raids on London alone. One hundred tons of paper was needed in the planning and construction of a battle ship. Magazines and newspapers reduced the size and number of their pages, cinema, theatre, bus, tram and train tickets became small and flimsy. Used envelopes were recycled using stick on economy labels. Bank statements, cheque book stubs and private receipts could be returned to banks for shredding. And interesting but only interesting novels could be taken to the post office for distribution to the armed forces. Non fiction books and sheet music went for salvage. Very little wrapping paper or other packaging was allowed and paper bags and clean newspapers were carefully saved for shopping trips. Newspapers were also cut into squares and used for toilet paper. Butter and margarine papers were kept for greasing and lining cake tins etcetera [] and I still do it. And I still fold up my paper bags.... [reading] Rags were more difficult to collect as housewives were putting scrap material to so many other uses. We're wearing them, one housewife remarked []. This comment was not entirely facetious and this brings us back to the remarks I made earlier about erm the use of Tampax and the government trying to persuade women to erm use internal sanitary protection. [reading] Because of the shortage of raw materials the government was running a propaganda campaign to persuade women to wear tampons during menstruation. Tampax advertised a trial offer of two tampons in a box with an explanatory leaflet []. Now the reason that erm they, they were trying to promote the use of tampons was that one couldn't get cotton to make cotton wool and so it wasn't possible any, any erm er erm sanitary garments that were made of cotton were commandeered and used for people in essential war work or the armed forces. And so there was this campaign to persuade women to change. [reading] Women who preferred who preferred traditional methods of sanitary protection either had to stand in long queues in order to buy just one or two towels [] you couldn't even buy a packet, you could just buy one or two [reading] or make do with other methods. One of the most common particularly in low socio-economic groups was squares of cle an rag which could be soaked, boiled and re-used. But when the make do and mend clubs were told that even worn out soft collars and shirt cuffs would make maps for tank commanders, they responded well and over a thousand tons of rag was collected between nineteen forty two and nineteen forty three. Bones were used for making explosives, glue and paint for aeroplane mark markings, and proved the most difficult of all to collect. The Ministry of Supply asked for any kind of bone except the backbone of a kipper. Housewives were told to hand them in after they had been used in the stock pot and fed to the dog, after, after which the bones were to be washed and dried in the oven after the gas and electricity had been turned off. Then they were to be put in a tin or other suitable container. In November nineteen thirty nine, the national savings campaign was set up. It was estimated that in August nineteen forty the war was costing between six and seven million pounds a day and that a great proportion of it must come from the savings of the people. Savings groups were formed all over the country and children ran their own campaigns in schools. There were also special savings weeks. By nineteen forty three individuals were putting aside almost one quarter of their disposable incomes. But it was always tempting to indulge in whatever small luxuries were available and people were constantly warned to be aware of the squanderbug []. There he is up there, wanted for sabotage. He was a horrid little rat like creature and he had a big swastika on his stomach. And he was always persuading people to spend more money. You see there there he is telling this lady [reading] don't listen to her she runs a savings group, the squander bug works for Hitler. The squanderbug alias Hitler's pal, known to be at large in certain parts of the kingdom []. So you had to be careful of him. [reading] So world war two ended with the surrender of Japan on the twelfth of December nineteen forty five. On the home front it was time to make new plans fo r the future. But for some people the austerity period which followed brought it even more years of deprivation and hardship than those of the war. They were bitterly cold winters, resulting in fuel restrictions and cuts in gas and electricity supplies. Some new foods were introduced including snook, a fish product from South South Africa, and whale meat. But in nineteen forty nine there was less meat available than in nineteen forty four. Bread was rationed in nineteen forty six and food and clothes rationing continued like make do and mend until well into the nineteen fifties []. I conclude
[speaker007:] went through all the, all the motions of bread rationing but the last time er they, they cancelled it.
[speaker002:] Did they?
[speaker007:] So bread wasn't rationed although everybody er was allocated a bread ration
[speaker002:] There was an allocation, yes.
[speaker007:] According where you although it didn't actually come into practice.
[speaker002:] You didn't have coupons?
[speaker007:] No, no. Unless anybody else can confirm that. It got right near it, but erm
[speaker002:] Finally there's just the there's the famous dig for victory poster and er... is your journey really necessary. And erm watch it all the things that one had to do to one's car if one was able to use a car in the blackout. Well thank you very much. [applause].
[speaker009:] I was in the army and you were thinking of a different country. Cos I was in the army we had good food and were away from all the bombing.
[speaker002:] Uhuh.
[speaker009:] And we went to Frinton of all places and you could go to the chippie and get fish and chips and everything. It was a different war from, from what you're talking about.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker007:] Several people were called up er they were, they were given a white feather were given a white feather for exactly the reason that you mentioned
[speaker002:] so they were going to have an easy time.
[speaker007:] . If you were in London erm you were called up give gave you gave you a white feather cos you were going in the army..
[speaker010:] I missed most of the first war with him actually. We didn't know it but we were together
[speaker009:] Lancaster. I was up at Lancaster when Liverpool got it. I was at Liverpool in nineteen er forty one May. Er at Wood er Lord Wood, Wood Lord Wood you know the pie p person
[speaker002:] Walton?
[speaker009:] Yes Lord Walton, his home er when Liverpool got bombed and and the ship went up. And all we got was we slept through that. And then we came down to Frinton and Felixstowe when London so. You know when people talk about the war we feel dreadful! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker010:] Well there was one sad part wasn't it that when I was on my in training during the and the rockets and so in classrooms and had a lecturer talking to us and erm this lad come in with a message from the teleprint and erm give it to the instructor, and he'd call a name and the chap would go out. Pretty horrible.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker010:] Somebody from London that'd lost their family
[speaker002:] Yes but it was, it was just like that when one went to school. And you went to school in the morning but never knew whether your house was going to be there when you got home for dinner or whether you'd still have a mum and dad and...
[speaker010:] I got er two letters actually. I got a letter to say dad was in hospital and we had a buzz bomb and it wasn't too bad and er don't worry.... And I god so I dashed round, got a long weekend it turned out to be marvellous. Came home... and she said well what have you come home for? Says well dad's in hospital. Yes he had tummy trouble. And the first letter told me that he'd got stomach... upset. The second letter told me so I thought they'd been bombed out.
[speaker002:] Er one of my worst experiences actually was going to school and found that when we walk when I went into the classroom there was only me and two other children. And the rest of the children had been killed in the night. They they all lived in in a small area that had been completely bombed. They were just three of us. No no no that was in erm near the docks erm in West Ham, Stratford way, yes.
[speaker007:] Yes. The Hawsfield Road is er is er three hundred and fifty people.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker007:] Children, erm.
[speaker002:] You might like to look at the erm... the West Ham bombing map.
[speaker001:] Well I'm afraid ladies and gentlemen we're going to have to stop now, rather reluctantly. Thank you very much really interesting.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] and it's very interesting reminiscences from people in the audience. Thank you very much indeed.
[speaker002:] And I'll see you again [applause].

[speaker001:] Okay if I could say good evening and welcome to the theatre this evening the reason the meeting has been convened this evening quite clearly is part of the process and art structure for Harlow having undertaken by the Council, the Playhouse is keen as it says quite clearly on the leaflet is to to get the publics view on how best to plan this programme and it's, and facilities for the future. It has been some debate er on the board and the management committee about the direction the theatre should be going into the nineteenth century twentieth century [LAUGHTER] and I think and I and I think it's important that this meeting hopefully will be very constructive in the sense that is important that the theatre actually gets the views of people use the building, and people actually come along and support the of the theatre. So I hope hopefully this evening will be a very constructive meeting and we'll certainly welcome your views about what you feel should be happening to the theatre or should be taken or should be taken place at the theatre, what should be on at the theatre, and er things that you feel that aren't happening at the moment. We did if I can give some background we did actually target er twelve thousand, five hundred mailer shots for this meeting this evening I'm not sure what the people here are representing percentage for that and we also targeted over about a hundred organisations with mailing shots telling people the meetings on this evening. In my concern as Chairman of the Board was that er if very few people turned up then perhaps people might say that we didn't go around go about advertising it in the correct way what I think we actually did I'm not sure how many people are here this evening, but I should think it's somewhere in the region of about hundred and, hundred and fifty, so I hope that the meeting this evening sort of cross representation people actually use facilities which the playhouse offers. Can I just introduce people on the platform to you this evening. My na mes Tom and I'm chairman of the trust, have Roy who is chairman of the management committee, Ron is vice who who who's vice chair of the board, Gordon I'm sure everyone knows is the general manager and John who is the company's secretary. There have been some hand outs as you come in hopefully you've actually picked them up, on part of that hand out is a questionnaire towards the end which I hope everybody will find the time to fill in. There's no need to put your name and address if you er choose not to do but I think we will actually value your your views on that questionnaire and certainly use those views in the coming months. So if I can open the meeting by saying that we obviously welcome questions this evening and points of view and I would like to open the meeting by asking quite clearly about how you er see best plan for the theat theatre in future and how it's programme of facilities for the future should be programmed and planned.
[speaker002:] Er Mr Chairman just a a point for clarification the about the. When the previous meeting took place with the consultants.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I rather got the impression that they would take him er, er, continue interest in what would happen, I've got the impression they have a representative here to give their view of how it was er
[speaker001:] This, I think the Counc the Council commissioned the partnership report and I
[speaker002:] right yes
[speaker001:] think the Council had a time meeting to actually discuss that report with, with
[speaker002:] yeah right yeah
[speaker001:] the public. I think from that report there was a there was a requirement or request that perhaps the theatre should actually have a public meeting to talk about which way the theatre was going what things were going on at the theatre and that's what the meeting is for this evening.
[speaker002:] Yeah but I thought they.
[speaker001:] The meeting sorry the meeting this evening is quite clearly is to talk about get your views on how best to plan the programmes for the facilities for the future.
[speaker002:] Yes but if there is I thought if one of their representatives was gonna be here just to answer questions about their views
[speaker001:] no no no
[speaker002:] Don't you think that'd be useful
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker002:] Don't you think that'd be useful
[speaker001:] No I think this is board meeting and as a board I think were interested to get your points of view what isn't taken place that you'd liked to take place and what you'd like to see in the future well and that's why the meetings been convened.
[speaker002:] Yes you do have four other colleagues on the side.
[speaker001:] Because their also board members.
[speaker002:] Oh I see Okay.
[speaker001:] Okay. Thank you.. Can I just ask the other question perhaps which is relevant when people do make a contribution if they actually identify themselves so that may be useful if actually know who people are representing themselves or representing an organisation.
[speaker003:] Chair my name's Pete from Partnership's I'm here as a member of the public I'm not here to speak on behalf of the theatre at all. I might have something to say later on in the meeting but I thought that people should be aware that there is a continuing interest from Partnership's in the abundance of an art structure within Harlow and I I am here taking notes of people's comments thank you.
[speaker001:] Thank you. Okay. Can we get into the meeting? Sorry go on sorry go on.
[speaker004:] I'd like to start off by saying I I.
[speaker001:] Could I have your name please? Sorry.
[speaker004:] Yes Kenneth er er I've just finished managing Relate. I think I I just represent myself. I I've been coming here for forty years so far and and provocative statement I think in your programme this Autumn is the best that you've had for years it's a very good combination of classical and and modern plays and I really congratulate you on this programme and I would like to see that standard maintained.
[speaker001:] Well thank you for that that's a very good start to the evening. [LAUGHTER]. Thank you.
[speaker005:] Jan erm I've just recently started a job as a drama teacher and I must say there isn't actually anything in the programme that's actually on my A level syllabus for drama and I think it might be something er it a help to schools if maybe there was a play put on specifically schools to come and see I think to comment on..
[speaker001:] I just say that I'm sorry go on don't want to be dejective this evening but I mean minutes will be taken notes will be taken points have been raised I think that's a very valuable point that you've actually have raised.
[speaker006:] Can we can we can we find out from the teacher whether in fact the school actually gets a a our information leaflet.
[speaker005:] Ehm is a it isn't actually a a erm a new school it's Birchwood High School it used to be Margaret Dane which has been established a few years but Birchwood just been started for a year erm it has is some information but obviously there haven't been any feedback from the school so I starts there.
[speaker007:] Chair can you ask people to speak up. A lot of people have very soft voices.
[speaker008:] You haven't Bill
[speaker001:] John. I wanna put this er question of what this playhouse is about a back to to to a stage to to the platform because I think that's where it belongs er were here to criticize but not to initiate. Er many of us remember Gordon in the sixties working with a small group to get this place built thirty years on does he feel the playhouse is doing what he then hoped for and if not what are the things that have changed it?
[speaker009:] None but it's thirty years on.
[speaker010:] . I'm one of the original directors of the theatre and er Mr Chairman what worries me is this. I think we have to face facts, first fact is the the priority of the board must at this time be survival. Financial survival. Er if you couple that with the action of Eastern Arts who I understand have cut the subsidy er for this er theatre I think that's correct, erm, as I understand on the grounds that a not enough they mean imaginative or progressive which to me means weird play to put on [LAUGHTER]. Er couple the two together they don't really make sense because this type of experimental theatre never pays, can't pay. Er in my opinion at this particular time we must bear in mind the financial constraints that we work under and er would the board agree with me that erm survival comes first yes but it's obvious that the programme that we've er had put forward is a good compromise between preferred in the arts, maintaining the theatre as a viable proposition and er entertaining the people of this particular part of the world because as I understand it this theatre was not just the artist also an entertainment centre and it's in this area that er it's quite obvious when you look into the figures on this area the popular area that the majority income comes so you'll have to make a compromise and I will congratulate the board on what I think is pretty reasonable compromise so it's quite obvious in the programme.
[speaker001:] at the back I can't. Tom I'm just a punter represent nobody. I come to theatre regularly I agree with my friend over there I think you have a very good programme quite mixed not all my taste but it's it's representative of the tastes of the people who want to come. Unfortunately with got to get some of those people who don't want to come and it's all about bums on seats it's the old old saying bums on seats we've got to get an answer how we don't get to these here at the moment in the audience whether they are people who want to get bums on seats or how they know how to do it perhaps they should have a meeting like this every month I've never seen so many of. [LAUGHTER].. I'll give you my fee later. Seriously though we've got to get people into this theatre on a more regular basis. A few years ago I saw a couple of Eastenders stars come in erm and Ross whatever his name forget his name there were two young girls standing in front of me scraping pennies out of their purse to get in though we loved that character they wanted to come that night we've got to get girls like that youngsters like that interested to come on other nights and then come again that's what needs doing..
[speaker002:] Keith. Erm representing myself. I think I agree with the gentleman over there I think the youth of this particular town who on average spends somewhere in the region of fifteen and twenty pounds a week going to Highwire and going to pubs erm you need the attraction to the theatre. How that's done I don't know how do we reach these people there's a broad sheet that goes to the school's am I right Jan?
[speaker005:] I wouldn't know actually Keith at the moment. I'm sure there is though.
[speaker010:] Yes there is to all of them.
[speaker002:] Erm can I ask how that's funded first of all is that funded through is that funded through the council.
[speaker001:] It's currently funded chair by er B P and we're very grateful for them.
[speaker002:] Okay is that do we know if that funding is going to continue?.
[speaker001:] Perhaps we sort through this original question we can pick up on that.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] about how many copies where they've actually gone that that is some that is sent out to all school's and quite considerable numbers are sent out. What's the actual figures on that Gordon
[speaker009:] Published three times a year and a thousand copies and distributed to all school's within a very wide area through the Education Authority.
[speaker002:] Do we get a feedback from school's at all?
[speaker009:] Yes, We do quite considerably through the.
[speaker002:] And and that I presume that the feedback is analyzed and decided from maybe as to the content of what goes on in studio and also on the main stage.
[speaker009:] sort of a sort of er points Jan made. Really it would be nice of we to have A level plays so A level student could come and see.
[speaker002:] But that has been in the past and that was a thing that we had for several years had A level plays actually on the stage am I correct? I think I am.
[speaker009:] I'm sorry I can't erm.
[speaker002:] As far as the as far as A level as far as A level plays are concerned I think with had them on the stage before now over the last five ten years as far as I'm concerned.
[speaker009:] One of the problems is of course is finding the product available.
[speaker002:] Do you not got to the school's for suggestions?
[speaker009:] Well yes of course.
[speaker002:] You do?
[speaker009:] We know what we know what plays.
[speaker003:] Mike just a point of information I have been teaching in Harlow for twenty years and I've never been asked by anybody at the playhouse what play's who's like to see in my school.
[speaker004:] My name is Pamela. We used to come to the theatre once a week but since the demise of the money saver two for the price of one scheme with only come really twice a season. I think it's great shame that were not able to come more often now but I don't think that the replacement scheme is really a replacement cos it relies on you getting the most expensive seats I would rather see lots of things cheaply rather than just one or two things more expensively it also doesn't include studio theatre many of the productions I think are excellent and there's no advantage there.
[speaker010:] Here here. [clapping].
[speaker005:] Paul erm involved in a number of erm in a number of amateur companies apparently working as a casual member of staff. I have one question which relates to the article double page article in this weeks Harlow Star. Er that is that at least three of the articles are talking to quoting different organisations er suggested that the playhouse theatre trust had been recommended to do something about their marketing er a at least two years ago if not longer ago erm certainly it's my knowledge er they have not employed specialists to that they have not employed a specialist to that indeed since the last er appointed publicity officer left, that person that post has not been er refilled er could I ask the theatre trust why they have chosen not taken that recommendation seriously?
[speaker001:] I think as far as market is concerned we have sort of taken certain steps as far as the marketing is I mean the computerisation of ticket system gives us a much greater insight on marketing now cos you can actually see what people come to see and we can by the ticket that's actually sold and we can actually target people direct. And I think that the last year has actually improved the attendance at the theatre because do that. As far as employment of the ma marketing consultant or marketing persons concerned the actual costing of that has worked out something like between six sixteen and twenty thousand pounds now we've gone through a very difficult financial stage like many other organisations and many other theatres. At particular market in time whilst we agree as the board that we should employ someone and we intend to employ someone we just think at this particular moment in time it is very difficult for us to actually raise that sort of money on a regular basis. As soon as our financial situation has eased we'll certainly employ someone. But it isn't true to say I'd certainly say it isn't true to say that making the recommendations of our market have been slightly up recommendation in takings. The one that hasn't been in fact to employ somebody particularly perhaps to go out the market theatre but this particular mark in time it's been very difficult for a theatre to actually find twenty thousand this financial year in fact we had to find seventy thousand pound cuts, that was a very difficult exercise so the answer to your question is we accept that recommendation and as soon as the finance is available we intend to employ somebody to take on that task.
[speaker005:] Is now.
[speaker001:] Well if it's a question yeah yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah erm, the reason I want to follow it up is because would you not agree er with a number of major companies in this country and in a time of recession rather than cutting back on your marketing and advertising you should in fact be increasing it in fact when the marketing
[speaker001:] But when
[speaker005:] manager should be be a major priority.
[speaker001:] Well that's what Breeze am keep telling me when I got to work in the morning it's about the time of recession people should advertise more not less that maybe but the hard financial situation of the theatre finds itself in is to find that sort of money is very difficult at the moment. We're not saying we can't we we we're against proposal we've had to take on the market person but until that finance situation is eased it's extremely difficult.
[speaker005:] Surely the point when you have no money to employ a marketing manager you won't need to employ one.
[speaker001:] I think there is a need for a marketing person. [LAUGHTER] [clapping].
[speaker003:] Question directly relating to that point though is it not true that the Eastern Arts withdrawal of the ten thousand pound grant last year was directly related to criticisms made in both in the nineteen eighty six appraisal and subsequently and repeated both to The Star recently what with was that the marketing of the playhouse was drastically inadequate.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] Had you not improved your marketing is another sporting chance you've got your ten thousand pounds grant.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] Do you know why you lost the Eastern Arts drama?
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] How is it then I put it this way.
[speaker001:] I'm sorry look I.
[speaker003:] How is it that you don't know and in your letter to me you said this trust did not know where that money had been withdrawn at the same time Andrew director of Eastern Arts was quite happy to write to me to tell me why he was quite happy to tell the press over the phone why how is it the trust didn't know?
[speaker001:] Well it would be very nice if Andrew actually wrote to the trust to tell them why in same details as he apparently told the press.
[speaker003:] Can I ask therefore why the Eastern Arts of appraisal report of nineteen eighty-six a major appraisal costing a huge amount of Eastern Arts money was not considered and and presented across.
[speaker001:] The Eastern Arts report of nineteen eighty six was never completed what the Eastern Arts did in actual fact was to produce a draft report and promised that the final report would be complete and circulate it as to date which is nineteen ninety-one we have not received the final report of the Eastern Arts appraisal.
[speaker003:] That isn't their story.
[speaker007:] Question question.
[speaker001:] Well it may not be their story but that's the fact.
[speaker002:] can I can I ask the funding of the playhouse.
[speaker001:] Certainly.
[speaker002:] Can I ask over the last six seven years what local companies have funded the playhouse and to what level? and how many of actually withdrawn and the reasons why they actually withdrawn?
[speaker001:] I don't think the theatre's ever been endowed with a great deal of fundings but one or two companies in the town that have been prepared to fund obviously the one that strikes me is Gilbey's cos the Gilbey bar I mean that was funded and like they've been over the years they have given money even fact as a sad note cos Gilbey's have actually demised now erm General Portfolio have actually taken on the role in Harlow of funding many things if you actually look all most things that have sponsored until recently have been sponsored by General Portfolio so they've been to the fore in er fundering funding. The the trust has actually approached several Council's in the area not just Harlow Council obviously but many many other Councils and I think there was only one other Council that provided some funding and that was something like two hundred and fifty pounds was offered at one time I think that's ceased now so there is no other Council although although it'd be interesting tonight although fifty per cent of the people who actually use this facility actually come from outside the town but there's no funding directly or indirectly from any other Council so my knowledge would be if you exclude B P exclude General Portfolio perhaps I'm doing other companies a disservice I can't think of any other major company in town that's actually provided but Gordon can you think of.
[speaker009:] Lloyds Bank.
[speaker001:] Lloyds.
[speaker009:] General Portfolio B P Pitney Bowes over the years have from time to time provided us with funding
[speaker002:] Is it simply been financial restraint by all those companies that that there isn't.
[speaker001:] Yeah their their funding tends to be they'll they'll fund something like a production or they'll say at you know if you put our name up were give you so much or General Portfolio perhaps will will fund a particular show or a series of show's or say were prepared to put a thousand pounds could you name six shows and we'll put our name on those show's when they're advertised but no company or other Council's actually prepared to come along and say were prepared to put money on a regular basis.
[speaker002:] Have you approached these companies?
[speaker001:] Yes we've approached on a regular basis we've we approach Yeah I mean me I it may be inappropriate at this moment in time to say we will do it now because of obvious reasons but prior to the recession it was an ongoing thing that the the board were in through the general manager were actually writing to many companies. I mean Cossor's er actually have provided funding in the past.
[speaker002:] Hm hm.
[speaker001:] Eh and perhaps were one of the major funders in the past I say General Portfolio until recently were the major funders er in the in the ninety ninety one but there's been no company that's been funding the theatre on a regular basis.
[speaker002:] Ehm what facilities would you actually give er on a broad spectrum so these companies that might want to fund the playhouse apart from the normal free tickets? Could you could you could you foresee the General Portfolio Portfolio bar?
[speaker009:] I not the Gilbey bar?
[speaker001:] We got the Gilbey bar but I no the answer to that question would be if any company or org organisation was prepared or wished to talk about funding the theatre in any way and I think were'd be more than welcome to sit down with and talk them and say well how would you perceive that which way would you like to go about it how can we assist that and I think we're be open to suggestions from them how they see it I mean you know it could be seats it could be programmes it could be any any arrange of things that we'd certainly welcome who approach us from companies but we I think we are pro-active in sense that we don't wait for that to happen we actually go out but was said early I think given the recession it has been difficult lately to actually go out to companies and say I mean sure companies like the Harlow Council find it extremely finance the finances extremely difficult on them and with the recession it's really difficult for them to actually find funding and I know lot's of companies who actually cutting back on it certain areas I think funding of oth outside organisations will be one of the areas they'll be cutting back on.
[speaker010:] So Mr Chairman sorry to bring it up again but er I think it's in line what this gentleman said er bearing in mind I think it is a fact that this is a reasonable theatre enjoyed by people from a very large catchment area could you please tell us what support the the er playhouse has had from the local authorities adjacent to Harlow. In my opinion they're they're pitiful.
[speaker001:] Nothing well we've no.
[speaker009:] Twenty five pounds from Braughing District council in nineteen seventy two. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] I'm sorry I put a nought I thought it was two hundred and fifty but I'm advised it was twenty five.
[speaker010:] I I I hope I hope er Mr Chairman these facts are brought to the attention of the general public bearing in mind the general public over a large catchment area enjoy the facilities here. I principally in Harlow who the generous generosity of forsightness of the Council etc I hope these facts are publicised and perhaps shame these people supporting er you know this theatre.
[speaker001:] I think it's also entertainment the excellent wage of services placed on by Harlow Council.
[speaker010:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] And one of one of the things that I've got on a regular basis is the many of the things Harlow Council put on like pop concerts country and western have actually been used by people who who perhaps live outside of Harlow so the Council are now looking at a charging policy but also we should also gonna introduce into the theatre is the leisure card which actually includes that the people actually live in the town local and the reproductional sort of show if they can do so they should buy. And I think what the Council's got to do and I think what the what the what the theatre perhaps has to do is only make that leisure card more easily acceptable and available and also look upon the reductions that we give but that perhaps is a way of actually rewarding the people in Harlow to use the theatre and the contribution in actually paying for it at the expense of the people coming in from outside who perhaps don't pay anything towards the expense of the theatre. So a leisure card's been introduced now and will be I hopefully will be expand and give that sort of financial reward to people who live in the town. Thank you.
[speaker006:] I I think there's another way of looking at that.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] I actually live in Sawbridgeworth.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] And I come down here very regularly but my view is we don't get any discount if you like we don't get a leisure card.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker006:] And yet it's the people around Harlow were not supporting it what the hell are you going to do then?
[speaker001:] Fifty per cent of them.
[speaker006:] I mean I know an awful lot of people outside Harlow who who come here but Harlow people could be said to be apathetic or not being marketed rightly.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker001:] I think I mean it was interesting cos someone said earlier about people coming in I mean once you get them in I mean I always feel it's like the pantomime each year which is an amateur pantomime yet the actual people coming in to see that I mean it's well in the ninety per cent 's and you talk to people when they come to see the pantomime and ver invariably the the mum's or dad's say no I don't normally come to theatre but I come to the pantomime and they enjoy it very much and when you talk to them they can say well what you think of it? Oh it's terrific you know it's a great building I like it I like what's going on and you say will you come back again? And they say yeah I will but but presumably that tapers off and they don't but it's an interesting thing that on particular when you're targeting certain things like pantomime do get people in I think there's lot's of people said this evening say actually build on that perhaps get those people to come back again so yes I did like it I I did like what I saw there I did like the way that I was treated I did like the whole ambience of the place like I'll definitely come back again will they be viable to do that? I would hope.
[speaker010:] There's a there's a perfectly example of marketing. Marketing. You've got a captive audience there why the hell don't you do it a sheet why don't you give them a programme for the next three months exactly what is happening. That way they won't drift off they will come back.
[speaker001:] We had erm no we we actually had done that we have given questionnaires out as programmes we actually asked people to I mean it'll be interest to see how many people fill it in this evening but there is a built in resistance by some people to actually fill in any sort of questionnaire er and in the past when we've actually done that I think the response's hasn't been that that brilliant. I'm I'm not not saying it's reasonable.
[speaker010:] So were talking about Harlow people just being apathetic.
[speaker001:] Well I'm not sure I mean it's interest I mean the the Council erm with another the Council looked upon attendances of the things Council do and many people who use the facilities in Harlow will argue we don't get anything like this where we live and we always find it like that you know it's that sort of mentality where people in Harlow may or may not say well course you get it in Harlow we expect it it's just there it just saves we know it's getting them people to use it but I talk to people I'm sure people who live in Harlow or the Council to people and Harlow people tend to think well yes yes it's all with always it's always there. So I mean it's winning people over because.
[speaker010:] There.
[speaker006:] I think it's fair to say that with this new computer erm the box office that we've got a lot of information can be stored on that and in future we'll be using a much more erm sophisticated in a scientific way for instance if you came here and book that seat that your sitting in tonight we would know on that computer what type of show that your discouraging coming to erm we can say to you we can send you out a leaflet saying the kind of er things that you'd like to see are on at the playhouse on such and such a date and we could even say to you would you like the seat that you normally sit in. And I think that that is is is.
[speaker010:] Well that's through marketing.
[speaker009:] And were doing it?
[speaker001:] Were doing it were doing it.
[speaker010:] Were doing it when?
[speaker001:] Now doing it now.
[speaker009:] Yes.
[speaker006:] Can I just say something else as well? I'm sorry erm as far as the schools are concerned you had presumably a lot of contact I mean as part of the national curriculum is if if you like is to build contact with the community and the schools. Could you not use the drama teachers in those schools to carry out the kind some of this kind of marketing as well. There's projects with the kids you know get the kids to to work on what they want what they want to see get them to work on their parents and find out you could find out then whether there is or not in Harlow.
[speaker009:] Certainly we er have extensive contacts with almost all the drama teachers in schools in the surrounding area through the amateurs in contact with them all the time.
[speaker006:] And that that shows that it that is true of working.
[speaker009:] And we're getting through that through the through the schools newsletter.
[speaker006:] But it I mean is it is it.
[speaker009:] One of the one of the difficulties is that that that theatres up and down the country have faced over the last two years of the new target that were brought in with the eighty eight education act where schools were not allowed to make a charge it could only be a voluntary contribution now the council of Great Britain have looked at this it's a problem cos of this decimated schools audiences. For many years we had a well known er.
[speaker006:] School.
[speaker009:] T R E company Molecule theatre which came originally from the Mermaid in They came here two or three times a year for seven or eight years and we use to pack 'em out. At the moment there isn't even a charging regulations came in the schools immediately cut back because it was a very definite barrier that was put up to prevent schools that prevented schools from from taking up that sort of er offer that they had done in the past and it's a major problem.
[speaker003:] Why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme.
[speaker001:] Sorry sorry if you sorry if you wish to speak.
[speaker003:] Sorry why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme? It's now available for only seven shows out of twenty seven in the next programme and only on the first night of each show and only at a cost of two pounds and these are the audience of tomorrow as I wrote to you Mr you neglect these people at your peril why've you changed the scheme?
[speaker001:] Are you saying you'd like to see that re-introduced?
[speaker003:] What's it why've you change it?
[speaker001:] No is that a question are you saying you'd like to see introduced?
[speaker003:] Well yes please why'd you change it?
[speaker001:] Right right right well we we'll we'll look at that quite clearly. One I mean one of the reason's that we've actually changed these round and and don't think it's right is because the has a there's been a cut cut cost cutting exercise within the building. The theatre like most other organisations have actually looked for savings and this this trust has had to look for seventy thousand pounds savings. I mean when you're looking for seventy thousand pounds savings you can only do two things. You can either look at people's jobs because that's the bulk of the money goes or you look at the charging policy or you look how the building's run. Now we've actually found seventy thousand pounds worth of savings we haven't made anybody redundant and we've actually quite clearly taken in that seventy thousand pounds within our overall budget past decisions has had to be taken and they've been taken as I said earlier hopefully when the financial climate gets better we perhaps we'll be able to other things all or were revert back to things that we we do wish to do because the the financial restraints on us. If you're raising a particular point and the reason that we're here this evening is to look at things that people are raising we'll look at that report we'll look at the point your raising and er we'll we'll see if it validity to it. Sorry.
[speaker008:] My name's Derek in any profit-making org organisation the results shown by the playhouse would have automatically brought about a change of management or does the Chairman of the Harlow theatre trust still consider that it is running the business very smoothly?
[speaker001:] Your asking me as chairman of the board and I think I can speak to the board I think that the theatre has actually managed very well.
[speaker008:] Why the meeting then?
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker008:] Why why is the meeting then?
[speaker001:] Why what?
[speaker008:] Running well?
[speaker001:] Cos I think it's important that er the the the theatre actually talks to the people who actually use the why are you saying we shouldn't be talking to people then? No I think I think it's it's it's a valid point to say that the trust should be talking to the people that actually use the building.
[speaker008:] Hm hm.
[speaker001:] Who've actually come in to see the shows to get there point of view to say what they like and what they dislike. To say whether they feel the things that that they like to see and that we're not doing. And has been said by several people who are here. There's things that we are doing like I've been told by a couple of people this evening the autumn programme they think it's very good very progressive very enjoyable I thi that that to me that reinforces the autumn programme by several people so people who here are people here this evening feel they we say something about what isn't on the agenda or what is on the agenda but I think that's what the meetings for but I don't think it's a bad exercise to talk to the people who actually pay come in the building I mean I think that's a valid exercise.
[speaker008:] I think it's a wonderful exercise why doesn't it happen more often?
[speaker001:] Well. It 's happen this evening.
[speaker008:] Cos of the marketing policy.
[speaker001:] Perhaps if it's so successful if it can successfully this evening perhaps we will do it more often.
[speaker008:] You will?
[speaker009:] .
[speaker001:] Sorry yes.
[speaker009:] I'm I'm really going to erm I afraid I have experience of
[speaker001:] Who are you sorry?
[speaker009:] Brenda
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[speaker009:] And you know me very well Tom.
[speaker001:] Yes. [LAUGHTER]. [clapping].
[speaker009:] No.
[speaker001:] You don't look the same from this side of the light Brenda.
[speaker010:] That's right that's right.
[speaker001:] Is it a question for us?
[speaker009:] The thing is I I me I've taken all my up here today.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker009:] I have used this building from the very beginning. I have always turned up when people have asked me to put children in their shows. I came in to this building last year I've got people sitting here who've realised it wasn't a happy place to be I found it quite difficult. I have staff who's morale was very under.
[speaker001:] Sorry Brenda I don't I don't wanna cut in could you ask the question please?
[speaker009:] Well I'm asking.
[speaker001:] Sorry I'd like the
[speaker009:] the thing is
[speaker001:] question.
[speaker009:] There is not well alright then my question is.
[speaker003:] Say what you want.
[speaker009:] I I I. Why don't you shut up. You know the thing is I feel that when I was tried to get the theatre board and I have contacted various people on the board I have never been listened to. I feel I'm just regarded as a neurotic woman I've been told that by Mr I've found that is was very yes I have don't deny it. No you've not. I have tried every way I wrote let a letter hoping somebody would actually come and ask me what was wrong. I wanted to put a a morning on when I realised there was problems here just a morning an open morning which would of brought probably nine hundred thousand pounds into this building, in July I came in to try to see the Director of the playhouse I couldn't go through the written way because I was waiting for exam date to come through. I've tried three times to see Mr he wasn't available. I then gave a message to his secretary personal assistant and was told no the letter I receive was that I shouldn't go through something third hand you don't see what the other side is. I've got a big school we fill this place in when I come in here. I'm asking is there a way that the board would actually listen. You know if I if I don't if I've offended Mr in any way then that is one thing but I do put on bottoms on seats and I bring money into this building. I'm one of the people who've actually got the guts now to stand up and say that I. [clapping]. Sorry I'm not sure yeah I'm not sure what decide but I'll be very clear what they would do.
[speaker010:] I think thing is. in there mind.
[speaker009:] People are frightened Ron there is a fear thing going on in this place.
[speaker010:] Yes.
[speaker009:] Which might sound terribly dramatic people are frightened that if you offend you will not use this building again.
[speaker003:] Here here.
[speaker010:] Here here.
[speaker003:] Here here.
[speaker009:] The staff here maybe I should be I shouldn't be saying this the staff are finding it very difficult I mean what I'm trying to say is for goodness sake eyes should be opened.
[speaker001:] We applauded because of the your new brochure And you are sorry. I'm Jean from the Harlow Symphony Orchestra. In your new brochure here that you've put on the table erm it says a meeting it doesn't actually say a meeting actually it says we need your ideas come along and tell us that's why we applauded. [clapping].
[speaker002:] Keith once again.
[speaker001:] I'm sorry not Keith once again we've got other speakers that haven't spoke once sorry..
[speaker002:] Jim er as a private individual. er Mr Chairman your care to require question so here's a question. Is this a public consultation meeting?
[speaker001:] The meeting this evening is to get the public's views and how best to plan it's progress
[speaker002:] Why does a view have to be expressed as a question?
[speaker001:] Sorry?
[speaker002:] Why does a view have to be expressed as a question?
[speaker010:] Hm hm. [clapping].
[speaker003:] Chair Ian.
[speaker002:] following on from that er that the point that I think is being made is that a contribution does not have to be put forward in a shape of a question to be er a useful contribution to the debate and and your erm pressure upon er the lady who spoke er a while ago was er insisting that she she
[speaker001:] that's right
[speaker002:] addressed you in the in the form of a question that is not necessarily the the only way to conduct a debate and I think that's the point that's being made.
[speaker001:] Well I think it's sorry I don't think it will serve any purpose people actually get up and make character assassinations of other people and when were talk in terms of I said You said and He said I don't think that's a productive way to conduct the evening's business.. Quite clearly the reason that people have been asked to come along this evening and have come along this evening is to put there points of view about how the see the theatre in the future what is programme facilities are the things that aren't happening here they feel should be happening here that's what it's for not here to serve any purpose for individuals to get up and make personal cuts on people or say what happen on a Saturday morning or a Thursday afternoon cos I Anybody wishing if anybody wishes to ring me anyone I'm not I'm not you see I don't see that serves any purpose I'm sorry I do not think that serves any purpose if you wish to ring me outside this meeting
[speaker009:] I have rung you I have rung you. The reason I'm standing up here cos your not get things done in this town I'm sorry it is the only way of saying something.
[speaker001:] I'm available to listen and hear what they've got to say.
[speaker009:] They are not.
[speaker001:] And discuss it with them.
[speaker009:] They are not.
[speaker001:] That's quite clear I'm prepared to do that. I don't think people interrupting and shouting this evening will solve anything quite clearly.
[speaker009:] It is the only opportunity.
[speaker003:] Chair.
[speaker004:] Can I just say just say one thing Paul and for myself erm I don't think that Brenda just two things I'm a very against character assassination erm I don't think that Brenda was character assassinizing
[speaker010:] No no
[speaker004:] What she was doing is she was talking as a person who's got a genuine love of the theatre as we all have that's what were doing here looking for solutions now can I'm I'm as I said I'm not assassinating your character now but you're being very intimidating in the way that your talking to people. [clapping]. Why is that?
[speaker001:] Because I don't.
[speaker004:] Sorry that's a question
[speaker001:] . What I'm trying to do is chair a meeting and to prevent what happening what's just happened when people start jumping up and shouting I don't think that's productive ways to chair any meeting or allow that to happen.
[speaker010:] No your not.
[speaker001:] The second thing productive I don't think it's productive for people to interrupt start shouting at me and chairing at me or shout shout at the platform cos I think all that's gonna happen there is the meetings gonna disintegrate and nothing will be as right. I've. The reason this playhouse the reason. [347 1] I mean that sort of thing doesn't help it right.
[speaker010:] I agree with that I agree with him.
[speaker001:] The same person the same person all I'm saying the reason that the meeting was convened this evening and the reason that Paul wants the meeting this evening was to get the views from the public about what they felt was going on at the playhouse and what they would like to see that isn't taken place I think that was the thing behind the meeting and that's what we'd like to see right okay.. [clapping].
[speaker010:] If you generally want the views of the public it is no good trying to false those views through a straight jacket of your own to make it what you think there views should be unless of course they go right over the top in which they I don't think that's happened so far. [clapping]. Chair can I try er to to wrap this up so that we can get back onto debate by delivering a question to you as chair?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker010:] The point's that I think is trying to be made is that there are a lot of people here tonight who do wish to express an opinion and that opinion is not necessarily formulated in question form. Will you allow people to address the panel as a a comment and not just a question yes or no if you say no fine we all understand and we have to er formulate our our ideas as a question and we'll carry on that case is quite simple and straight forward like that. You are an experienced chair you're good at your job and if people get out of hand you know how to shut them up.
[speaker001:] I'm prepared for people who actually prepare to make comments yes I think you've got to limit the time and make comments not particularly what people get up and speak for ten minutes I don't think it's fair on the people this evening who've come along and put a question about why aren't you doing certain things I think that's and I don't want those people to actually come to a solution. I'm not prepared I'm not prepared for individuals to get up but if your not if you don't want to listen to what I've got to say that's okay but I don't I'm not prepared for people to perhaps to start making personal points about people actual work within the I certainly wouldn't do it I don't think it's it's a question of.
[speaker005:] Right you've made a point now.
[speaker001:] I think it's.
[speaker005:] I think you've spoken more than a few minutes.
[speaker001:] I'll continue to speak if you keep interrupting. I quite clear to do that okay thank you. Yes.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker001:] Where?
[speaker010:] I think there's a lady over there with her hand up
[speaker001:] When I say I can't see people I think it's the lighting but there is a sort of a I can't recognise people by face. Someone at the back yes.
[speaker006:] Mr chairman Derek I've lived in the town for something like thirty five years and seems to me that the problem here is a lot of mistrust between people who use the theatre and the board somewhere people are not getting answers. Would it not help if the board gave a written assurance to the people who've been complaining here that they will meet them on any occasion to discuss the problem in writing please because from Brenda it appears that it just does not happen.
[speaker010:] That's right.
[speaker006:] If we could have it in writing and we could publicise it I'm sure they would where to go and how to do it.
[speaker001:] If anybody has any absolutely yes I'll be quite happy I mean to me chairman of the trust or with management committee to meet anybody if they feel that they've got some concern they wish to discuss I'm quite happy to do that all I can say is that nobody has actually wro wro wrote to me or rang me to say they'd like to meet to discuss that and I'm quite happy to do that.
[speaker009:] You've had letters
[speaker001:] But I think it may be more appropriate if I actually met with say the management committee as opposed to myself yes I'm quite happy to do that to meet any individual or group who feel they have some concerns they wish to discuss and I give that I give that assurance this evening.
[speaker010:] Seems to be somewhere along the road or otherwise your gonna get nowhere nobody.
[speaker001:] Yeah I'm quite happy to do that. Sorry someone here yes.
[speaker007:] I'm Mrs and er the point I wanna make is that I understood when Jimmy Jones came here had two lovely full houses but I heard through the building through the grapevine that the members of the trust or council objected to him because he was racist his jokes and sexist. Now if you're talking about filling the seats it's obvious that the people in Harlow like that type of thing so why don't we have more of it. [clapping].
[speaker001:] The answer to that question would be that the Council's actually the Councillors adopt an equal opportunity policy and that policy now has been adopted by the theatre trust and the theatre trust wouldn't put anything on if they feel sexist or racist or ageist.
[speaker007:] That makes you like censors then
[speaker001:] No well that's that's a debateable that's a debateable point but I think that would that is the policy of the board.
[speaker007:] Talking about bums on seats here.
[speaker001:] Well we could I mean there are many ways there are many ways that we could actually fill this building apart from putting Jimmy Jones on there's lot's of things perhaps we could really put on which we would.
[speaker007:] .
[speaker001:] And then if we would find totally unacceptable we certainly wouldn't be prepared to do that
[speaker009:] .
[speaker007:] I didn't I didn't see him myself personally I don't like him but it's a matter of choice.
[speaker001:] Does anybody who hasn't asked a question or wishes to make a comment who who would like to?
[speaker010:] Yes I in relation to the above
[speaker001:] sorry
[speaker010:] Aha for the studio theatre to be dark t during the autumn and I I do regard the studio theatre as the frenzied heart of a theatre and I have enjoyed many of the performances very much and I just hope very much we can just get some more money from somewhere carry on I [tape turned over]
[speaker009:] In the studio. One of the reasons why to save money is because the studio theatre has a limited capacity. And the sort of er money that won't have to pay a reputable alternative theatre it was such that one couldn't hope to break even on that capacity with the sort of seat prices that were that we're charging. So sadly that was one of those things that we had to cut. I know there are people here I know there are people here in the audience that use used to come to classical music concerts, horrendously expensive even with the Eastern orchestral board's subsidy. For example if you had the London Mozart players here as we frequently did and frequently played to full houses, then even with a hundred percent house there was a subsidy required of something like seven or eight pounds per seat, in order to meet the cost of presenting that particular concert and we've done it for years but sadly when we had to make cuts that was one of things the board decided they had to cut up they had to save money somehow.
[speaker003:] May I make a relevant point please?
[speaker001:] You'll ask a question. Yeah surely..
[speaker003:] In the current programme the studio is in use for seventeen days out of a possible a hundred and forty seven. In the next ten months starting in September ninety one it's in use for sixty four days out of a possible three hundred. That is economic lunacy, not saving money it's lunacy it should be in operation making money bringing people in.
[speaker008:] Question Mr Chair.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker008:] My names Christopher with reference to that representing myself. Reference to that point is that management or mismanagement. [clapping]. could you answer the question please
[speaker001:] Yeah the board in it's wisdom looking at the financial situation decided to take on a policy which actually prohibited the use of the studio theatre by professional companies and I think that's reduced the actual use of that facility.
[speaker005:] Can I ask erm what's happening to the Harlow Playhouse based Youth theatre cos obviously that has left a big gap in performances cos there's nothing in this programme.
[speaker009:] Yes one of the er sad things about Harlow youth theatre which many of you will remember er was sole run so successfully by Roger over a number of years. Sadly when Roger left in nineteen eighty-six it took the education of who provided Roger's er salary until point successor. During that time of course nobody there to run it the youth theatre sadly er ran down. Subsequent of that of course to meet the need we had Stage Directions come into being very vibrant thrusting young people theatre's company and really what's happen is that Stage Directions in part anyway has taken over the mantle of the old Harlow youth theatre. Harlow youth theatre now with our developing links with Harlow College and it's performing arts division er is now based in the College with tutor's from staff of the college who's job is one way er that that we could we could push it forward. I'd just like. Yes. Like to ask in relation to er previous comments made before. Why then are there not more amateur productions in the new season erm in in the studio erm not just from the companies that actually use the studio at the moment. Because I'm sure they don't cost as much to put on up there as do professional productions? Well certainly there there are in the coming season there's a many people sitting here tonight will know. Large number of er amateur production in fact there's an amateur show in the studio theatre one er once every three weeks. Yeah but what about. And cos the the studio is also used regularly for rehearsals for example or as you know if er local amateur company is putting on a show in the studio they're given the use of the studio a week before the week of the show. Yeah but. Cos that is an advantage of it. Okay but you've
[speaker001:] Your point sorry yes.
[speaker009:] Got local advantage to them but that never used to happen okay so why is it happening now? They I mean in a time when it's sort of been difficult to make money erm why is that one got not gone by the board and more amateur production put in there? I'm sure the people who's actually used the studio theatre would willingly give up that week before it never used to happen.
[speaker001:] What you're saying is you'd like to see more amateur productions?
[speaker009:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Fine.
[speaker010:] erm.
[speaker001:] Sorry the lady. Yes.
[speaker010:] Mr Chairman erm I would like personally take up a suggestion that was in The Star about the possibility of a regional company being based at the playhouse in other words for a few months I would see it as people getting to know this company and rather like a repertory theatre of old then people would want to come and see these people in different roles and I think that would add to the you know repetitive.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker010:] Coming to see these shows.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker010:] I'd like the board to consider that.
[speaker001:] Okay that sounds erm talking about the sorry David the Playhouse being an entertainment centre, perhaps you should utilise the space a little bit more I'm sure if we go down stairs now into the foyer bar it's probably empty as it is erm many nights of the week. I'm sure if you go to the stage door club tonight erm.
[speaker010:] it's closed
[speaker001:] Right I mean these are area's in in this entertainments centre as it was called earlier on the entertainment being theatre and the gallery erm that may be utilised more i.e. jazz bands in the downstairs bar erm any other ideas I mean get people into the building then you'll sell tickets to keep the place running. I mean I I certainly accept that I mean I think there a lot of problems on the in the stage door club several nights of the years. And why the problems there is that any sort of loud music was actually buried under the auditorial I mean that was the problem that occurred and we had to sort of tone it down a bit. And I think in the past there there actually been music in in foyer bar erm yeah I mean I'd certainly look at that I mean. . Were open I mean there's been lots of things done like that I mean you maybe aware of this sort of jazz in the Gilbey bar on Saturday lunch time and that's been running some time then it'll cease to come back again you know if you'll actually counting on the people actually coming cos of the jazz there I think as your looking at it it was slightly up it wasn't a wasn't great influx because there was jazz available so yeah we'll certainly look introducing things into different areas of the theatre but from past experience it doesn't automatically follow that if you can do that then you know it's gonna happen. Just a reply to that though if for instance the foyer bar became a jazz club and it was it was a the jazz club all the time then it would get a name of it's own and it would get a reasonable quality. I was in Bristol recently and I went to a bar there which is packed every night people pay to go into a club to go in there. Sorry.
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman what's the erm chance of the Petticoat restaurant coming back under the playhouse umbrella.
[speaker010:] No.
[speaker002:] That I believe now it's run by the ladies that took over some while ago.
[speaker001:] Sure. The chances that I think are nil. In fact the pet petticoat restaurant is is run as a and because the theatre trust for whatever reason could make profit out of the petticoat restaurant and people that actually work there for the trust that actually took it over and the trust actually get's a percent of the takings percent of profit and er.
[speaker002:] So really it's.
[speaker001:] And er as and as and as that.
[speaker002:] Making.
[speaker001:] Were actually are making a profit we said at the beginning we do get a payment from petticoats so I don't see that arrangement actually changing but it suits the trust were not very good at running restaurant's. [LAUGHTER]. As much as the Council are it's very difficult..
[speaker002:] .
[speaker010:] Your be leaving yourself open.
[speaker001:] It's a special it's a special licence actually running restaurants.
[speaker002:] Yeah but it's.
[speaker001:] Ehm.
[speaker002:] It's sad not to have a restaurant that size in the playhouse so that people come to the theatre.
[speaker001:] Well.
[speaker002:] I think the stage door club is fine but it's so tiny and rather you know.
[speaker001:] That that was so was originally was available for the ticket you could actually have some supper before you went in or perhaps supper when you came out and that was the sort of thing that was available. Unfortunately over the years there was such a deficit for whatever reason lot's of things were tried it was then decided that it was two options one was closing lose so much money or actually put it out to franchise fortunately enough that people were at all the money and we didn't get an income from it. I accept the point your raising on this if it was open in the evenings that would be an added hance to the building unfortunately it isn't yes I think your absolutely right.
[speaker002:] But can't couldn't you perhaps develop then the the er stage door club could do more perhaps more meals and maybe erm have tickets that take in the cost of a meal so you actually.
[speaker001:] Sorry. I've done that I mean one of the sad things about the stage door club is due to the design of the building you've really got to be looking to go there.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] It's not sort of passing trade.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] I mean it's got if you've got a disability for instance you wouldn't be able to get in there. So that's that's a problem.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] So if your if you're an elder it'll be very difficult to get up those very steep steps etcetera so it's got disadvantages now it's been run all sorts of ways it's was run you know it was run as a as a wine wine bar it was run as a restaurant it's been run as a bar it's been run as a stage door club but all this all these ways have been run by private individuals it's not always been the trust that's run it it's been run as franchise all these people have great problems actually making profit out of it and making it suitable. And it's also got limited facilities about what you can and what you can't do there so there are problems there. I mean it's empty at the moment if anybody's got any suggestions or thoughts about what we can do with it it's certainly er we I I would like to hear those. If perhaps not this evening then if ring me or contact me.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker001:] I'd certainly raise that at any any thoughts about how it could be used it is facility at the moment isn't used should be used.
[speaker010:] Here's a simply suggestion why don't you move the facilities from the stage door club down to the foyer bar so that a load of people can go in there you'd change the general denouement of the foyer bar. Yeah. Simple. Yeah. ambience
[speaker009:] I think there's nothing Chairman that a hundred and fifty thousand pounds wouldn't do.
[speaker010:] Well why not why not go outside for funding? So marketing exercise once again.
[speaker003:] Ehm just to get back about the point the studio being dark erm it's just as a suggestion has anybody thought of actually running say a week's worth of drama courses with er an artist in residence or something like that coming in to do work shops. I know that stage directions will come along and youth theatre'd come down I'm sure a lot of people with theatre company come and do them. Surely that'll bring people back into the theatre it would obviously pay the artist it would also bring money into the theatre if the theatre could actually charged for them to do them.
[speaker004:] Well going back to the boards point about take over theatre as we did on making a loss.
[speaker001:] Sorry the restaurant you mean.
[speaker004:] The restaurant yes petticoat restaurant. erm one did take up on public individuals if they made a profit have the board not considered perhaps teaming public individuals to run the theatre? [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Sorry.. We are yes.. Yeah we are has that does that answer the question we actually are considering it
[speaker004:] You are.
[speaker001:] We are that.
[speaker005:] Going back again to Dave 's point about the foyer bar.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker005:] I think I probably speak for er quite a few people in the audience at the moment but I myself who intimidated going in there cos of the clientele that seems to be attracted to it. I don't know if I know I understand obviously monies not around at the moment but if they made some way of creating some kind of jazz pub closing it down making it part of the theatre again it's it's just a like a pub and I I don't ever feel comfortable going in there and buying drinks on rehearse. [clapping].
[speaker010:] Mr Chairman too.
[speaker001:] Hang on hang on.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker001:] Hang on
[speaker010:] It's just that we didn't know that I didn't hear what she said. Before you give the answer.
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker010:] I'd like to know what the question was.
[speaker001:] She felt sorry.
[speaker005:] I just make.
[speaker001:] She felt intimidated by going into the foyer bar.
[speaker005:] Yeah it doesn't actually seem.
[speaker001:] Can I just say two things on that first of all I think you're right. Secondly I think the sad thing is is that at one time the idea of the foyer bar was the fact that er mother's and children go in for a coffee facility or tea facility now I'm I'm one of one of the problems about criticism is is perhaps they don't know all the facts and one of the facts which I think astounded me was the actual local police stopped that and said that that wasn't permissible for if you were selling alcohol then it didn't it wasn't right that that children under age and young children were allowed in the same area and that was that was changed then we got a new a new police superintendent and he said it was permissible and then we got another super he went they don't stay very long in Harlow and we got somebody else came along and he said no that isn't permissible so we got very schizophrenic about what you could do with the foyer bar one minute you could have and the idea of about telling people and there young mothers going shopping come here for coffee, cakes for the children etc stop that we've now got a new superintendent in Harlow and I think with applied going back to him and saying well please advice us can we or can't we? The last superintendent said we can't and I think the point you've raised is very valid since they actually stopped that facility said that they're not allowed in there it has I think gone into a situation where it isn't a very quite place erm and there problems about what goes on there etc and I think need to look at it. But I personally feel that it needs complete refurbishment and that costs money I think that the points been raised earlier about having some sort of jazz pub here or some pub here is very bad and I think we could investigate that.
[speaker005:] Can you think if we have something meal facilities which has also been raised if then maybe the stage door club area could be used for something like light rehearsal space which is always in demand.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Or another kind of committee room
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker005:] Actually utilise our space not necessarily for the public which obviously is difficult to get to the disabled people etc but using it for something like that.
[speaker001:] When we say when we say that that we stage door club is closed it closed in the place it's not open every evening but we do actually let it out we let it out to companies and whatever conference or companies who want a facility or meeting place something we do actually market that and we do actually ask people if they want to use it and in fact it has been taken up there. But I've I think it is a valid facility but it depends what the facilities for.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I think the problem about having it as a a a perhaps a wine bar or something is that is that it's very difficult to get to and I think it don't does create problems for people but I think there is a solution there we just need to actually target the right use for it. here.
[speaker005:] Alan speaking for myself. It's apparent from the meeting here that a number of people feel they have a grievance about the theatre and the way it's run, would it not be an idea for the board on a regular basis to invite users of the theatre to attend. To approach them tell them how they feel about things rather than having to ring you up and make an appointment if only once a year or once every six months use a group.
[speaker001:] Right you have to come I think the basis of this evening was to get people to come along and put there points of view and to say what's happening and what isn't happening and I think we can take that take that away and considerate it yes I mean I I think the board or the management committee will be happy to meet with people to discuss the use of the theatre er what it's used for what might what the unhappiness is if there is unhappiness and the positive and the positive as well as the negative points yes.
[speaker005:] It would prevent there being a build up
[speaker001:] Certainly we'll do that. Yeah. chap.
[speaker006:] erm when I first started working in Harlow eighteen years ago one evening I came up just to see what the playhouse was all about. I was shown round the building although there was a performance on by a very pleasant elderly doorman who's not here any more I've been coming ever since. er is not a possibility of having more open days so that general public can come in to see what's happening and not only advertise in Harlow but advertise I live in Bishop's Stortford now in the surrounding districts erm time gets although you said you get fifty per cent of people coming from outside of Harlow it doesn't matter where the people come from as long as they come so more open days free erm to get people to come in and er particularly er outside people also I would suggest that the er chairman's of the local district council's who are not contributing be invited to the open day to see what er the playhouse is doing for the people who live in there er council area's to see whether we can get some more supports er as a Stortford resident I'd be quite happy to add a bit on my community charge to go to the playhouse. [clapping].
[speaker007:] Perhaps er school children could be brought in when the theatre start's during the day who actually see how the theatre runs see what theatre's all about and they might be interested in the theatre..
[speaker009:] We have er demand for tours of the theatre schools in the area which were not able to meet.
[speaker010:] It seems an ideal.
[speaker009:] And it is you know it seems to take up quite a bit of time for members of staff and we do as many as we can but sometimes we have to say sorry we we can't do any more this week.
[speaker003:] Peter from. Chair can I make a suggestion quite clearly a large number of people have made some very good and valid recommendations or suggestions to you and the board this evening and you've said on many occasions this evening the board will obviously go away discuss those and take a view on the particular ideas. Now might it not be also a very good idea then to report back to another public meeting with the results of those suggestions possibly done in a written form which could be freely available before the meeting so that people can discuss these in a structured way because I think this evening one of the problems about this evening is that points are being missed because issues are being jumped from one to another in no structured way and I think that it might be worth while for another meeting where it is structured but certainly to produce the results of your discussions internally to many of the ideas that you've heard this evening.
[speaker010:] Here here. [clapping]
[speaker002:] Could I just make one suggestion that it's made within the next six months as well.
[speaker010:] Here here.
[speaker001:] With time permitting yes.
[speaker002:] You've got six months for God's sake
[speaker008:] Mr Chairman could I ask a question because one of the things that I've found missing this evening is specific things that people would like to see in this playhouse or perhaps specific things that we used to do and that find are missing and the last I haven't heard the word gallery mentioned from there much at all what do we think about the gallery?
[speaker010:] Can I think. ..
[speaker008:] Well I'd like to speak about the gallery I like to speak for myself and er just the visual arts and er the gallery when it first started was a gallery very much appreciated by appreciated by the Eastern Region er they saw it as potential a very significant gallery in the whole region which would have been a marvellous thing for Harlow to have. That has now changed Eastern arts no longer support the gallery now one obvious reason for that is the gallery started so well because of the enthusiasm from a number of professional people who came along and gave their advice and much of their time and such a body of people has not been called upon for a number of years now and once again a request to discuss this with Mr was refused. We have the gallery still running reasonably well but it is one man ten hours a week his experience is badly limited this marvellous free resource is no longer being called for. [clapping].
[speaker010:] . You asked what people would like to see in the playhouse. Is that being recorded? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a very valid point.
[speaker008:] What I would like to see in the playhouse is an open system of government very much like our council professes to follow. I would like to see agenda's for these meetings public available I'd like to see some commercial experience by a vote of general manager and their trustee's. I'd like to see not cutting cutting costs raise in income and finally I'd can only see these things coming coming about with the resignation of the five people on the stage tonight. [clapping].
[speaker009:] Janet erm Mr want's some practical suggestions I have one for goodness sake any show that's suitable for children charge those children half price that way you'll get. [clapping]. In ten years time if you just give them a derisory thirty pence off people leave their children at home make it easier for them to bring them with them. [clapping].
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker010:] Steve represent the association of Natural Body Builders. Sir could you tell me why why the playhouse operates a policy whereby promoters cannot hire the venue outright. Other theatres operate this system quite successfully with little or no financial risk at all.
[speaker001:] Sorry can you just explain that when you say.
[speaker010:] I wrote to Mr in February of last year.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker010:] Asking to erm promote a natural body building competition here erm the letter received back was we didn't feel it was suitable. On trying to contact Mr by phone I have on many occasions I was put off to say he wasn't available I have also come to the foyer at the bottom asked to see Mr after twenty minutes wait and nobody turned up I decided to retire. I again last month wrote to Mr to try a promote a drug free competition for a Sunday giving various dates of nineteen ninety two and have yet to hear. I would like to know why this policy is that er that you didn't consider this a venue of body building to be suitable if it's not erm it's gonna put bums on seats and generate income to towards the trust why not? [clapping].
[speaker001:] Sorry. Someone.
[speaker007:] Can you answer the question please
[speaker001:] I I I was certainly with that question has been recorded and I I can't answer immediately but obviously you you what you've said we'll take that up with the management committee and come back to you straight away.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker001:] Okay.
[speaker010:] Can I also point out that erm the association of natural body builders stipulate that a contest must be held in a seated theatre such as this.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker010:] Supplying cafeteria and bar facilities and there's no one else in Harlow to seat four hundred plus people and that's like regulars and if the Harlow playhouse turn around and say no we're not interested where else are we to go? In in this instance the Harlow Sports Centre been very kind in doing everything they can to host this venue and hopefully in the near future the Harlow playhouse will open their arms also thank you. [clapping].
[speaker001:] Yes yes. Sarah. I have been using the playhouse for about ten years now and going back to the point that someone made earlier about sex well about erm racism sexism is doesn't that count as censorship. The same as the way that this gentleman has found it's somebody else making a decision to what people can see and I don't consider some a show like Pro's and Con's which had female nudity and two hundred and fifty people walk out in one night to mean something which I think is enhancing to the playhouse. [clap].
[speaker010:] I'd like to take up a couple of points if I may about getting some erm we were talking before mentioned children coming in on a regular basis er it's called living. What about getting those children as they go out a voucher that their parents can bring them along to see a show at a reduced rate. We've got there interest they come they've seen they've seen how the theatre works let them come to see the theatre working. Then there's a lady over here who comes or used to come on a regular basis a couple of times a month she comes now a couple of times a year. Encourage her to come back more often you'll not only sell the seats you'll sell the drinks you'll sell the ice cream you make good profit from those and every theatre and every promotional help is done. Drinks and ice creams are profits right. Then we talk about the lady from Sawbridgeworth who said she get's no incentive I get my incentive use by using my leisure card that lady gets no incentive to come back. What about some sort of sticker that she gets that can use the use of her period of time another idea to around.
[speaker001:] Right is there any body that hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker002:] You asked about the gallery.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Eh personally I think it's.
[speaker001:] Your sorry your name?.
[speaker002:] Peter from Harlow Society of Art. I personally think the gallery's grossly under used you have a large number of exhibitions that seem to extend over six to eight weeks. Personally I think it should be restricted to about four weeks and get more exhibitions in there for wider variety and also there's a number of er travelling exhibitions around the country that come down North er from up North down to the South to show around here that you can book these any time you want er I talked to somebody organised an exhibition in London and they are quite willing to come to Harlow you book us and we have nothing like this at all. And all that's repetition going around.. All we seemed to get is abstract art which people in Harlow means so few appreciate which I quite understand. [LAUGHTER]..
[speaker003:] Ehm Ron. There's been some concern about the complete show of publicity particularly for studio theatre show's the amateur ones. Sometimes there's a good write up beforehand sometimes there's nothing. Is any body pacifically in charge of publicity or is it a committee meeting eh committee do more can you tell me er who's in charge?
[speaker009:] We produce a press release every week in advance send it out in forty three publications.
[speaker003:] It's funny er even even though there's about five free paper's er sometimes there isn't a write up at all I'm not talking about your your panel.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] A lit little write up through through pub this would surely bring more people in if they knew what was.
[speaker009:] We are constantly talking to the press try and persuade them to give us more coverage. Some newspapers do The Star.. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] I I I dislike the concern about the communication level between the general manager and the board. erm I'd we we have a number of suggestions er a gentleman over there about the er body building was that reported back to you for a start and did you discuss this? erm you know I I really thought it sort of modern management techniques if there applied here like team working net working it's it this way you could actually begin to perform as the committee at the moment your the shadowy figures in the background. The only person that I know about at the playhouse is Gordon. erm so I'm aware I'm I just like to know if Gordon is actually aware of the terms like team working net working erm. Has he been on any recent training courses to discuss this? [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] You missed a couple off that proactive I think is the buzz word it's called seem less production so. If you want.
[speaker002:] I'm not into buzz words
[speaker001:] I would suggest you to ask that question in fact you'll ask Gordon afterwards. Okay. Is there anybody hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one.
[speaker004:] My name is Buzz stage art technical art. [LAUGHTER]. I've come in this theatre in nineteen seventy five. I came here as a company stage manager from Oxford playhouse company. Listening to all this tonight reading that article in The Star which I personally disliked intensely
[speaker010:] Here here
[speaker004:] I want to say the thing that's happening at the moment in my difficult life that I'd hold onto like a drowning man with a log. One thing that works at this time forget today and yesterday and all the week it's the number of children that come into this playhouse now we have us we have a thing called work experience where they come from the school's and the poor little bugger's have gotta work with me. [LAUGHTER]. If they go away and say I'll be back Buzz I'll be back. And they come back and see me what they taken from here and seen in other papers is a privilege for me if I've set them off in my biased Welsh way. [LAUGHTER]. But they do come back loads of them and we send them off everywhere into dance into acting into trade shows we've got a terrific act on here all you people who strive and slave towards making this playhouse work we're a bloody miracle. But don't lets knock it to death don't lets kick it this place saved my life I almost killed myself trying to fulfil those that we've been talking about. I've done over fifty of them I'm still standing up just about. Fifty that's a hell of a lot of show's and a lot of Mrs and a lot of Mr and a lot of Janet I love you you know. [LAUGHTER]. a bit of all of you lot so come on people you're not doing yourself justice. [clapping]
[speaker001:] Can I sort out.
[speaker005:] Chairman I haven't got a question my name is Harold er I come from Bishop's Stortford, er I work in Harlow and I don't think that you should necessarily forget that some of the people are not residents in Harlow do in fact work in Harlow.
[speaker001:] Your absolutely right. Yes.
[speaker005:] Erm I I've done a lot of listening this evening er and I'm sure you have too from from the way in which the the rest of the board have been responding er with there eyes and ears even if they haven't always been open. erm I'd like to be a little bit positive about certain things this evening too because I too believe that you've got a very good programme. I think you maintain an excellent record in that but it does still come back to getting people into the theatre. And one of the things that I'm not sure we have addressed adequately now and perhaps won't this evening is how to get people into the theatre and I really thing that it would be worthwhile trying to find out stops people coming in. erm marketing is certainly one one and possibly does needs some more er attention but there were one or two things that that struck me as as er you went by and you asked to comment and and maybe give a small one that there will pick up on. erm we actually find it quite hard to book our seats. If you pick up the phone and ring to get seats here you will very often find that you can't get through. There must be a way round that. Because I can't believe if you come in the off peak periods there really aren't that many people here erm I can't believe that the phone is so busy that that we're actually being stopped in making from reservations. I've listened to a lot of interest to to the people who've been commenting about the future and the schools and the young children coming in. erm just just as something totally off the top of my head erm I very much regretted the demise of the proper programme erm and in fact I I actually object to the paying twenty pence for something that er really doesn't represent value for money. But just as a thought for you since the school's are involved and since children are involved in a number of these things perhaps it has been tried I don't know erm you might actually be able to get a more regular input not only from the children and their but also from their par ents by perhaps involving or asking the schools to become involved in the production of the programme. erm that would maintain a regular interest from the schools and also from the children involved.
[speaker001:] Right your absolutely right about the programme. Yeah and I'll certainly and I we think are actually in process in looking at that lot as a rule that's a very valid point. People are getting fidgety people are leaving can I just.
[speaker010:] Can we just.
[speaker001:] Can I sorry could I could I take obviously take some question people wish to ask a question because I think it's important that before people start drifting away we actually bring the meeting to some conclusion and determine where we're gonna go with the meeting once it's actually passed. So can I take people who actually haven't spoken already I think that's the fairest way. There's a lady here.
[speaker006:] Ehm er chair er Sheila from Harlow secretary of the film society which has operated here since the playhouse opened moved from the town hall er we do get people past the door we have been doing in years erm and I personally I'm also here as an individual I've been an arts lover for forty five years of my life in Harlow. erm and I'd just got one comment that I like to make and er then the question. The comment is about publicity in Harlow itself and and just around it erm the environment. When I came to Harlow I was stuck by what a lovely neat town it was then erm but there were er absolutely no posters anywhere in Harlow. It's a tiny little things you know er in glass cases now there are a few at bus stops but a lot of people don't use bus stops any more you know they drive erm I know that posters great hoardings that we some of us probably grew up with when everybody knew what was on and the great big posters everywhere. Posters also teach young people how to develop a sense of erm they also make life much more fun more interesting and erm this is great contrast with Harlow and an urban area like Greater London area where as the report by erm in er the report the report on observation in London you know didn't mention the fact that publicity is of course is much more much greater than the London area erm and erm er one thing I see is missing could er er the reason is we found er the film society we can't advertise our events very well because of the restrictive bylaws on advertising poster advertising in Harlow I wonder if something could be done about this? Cos that's one reason a lot of Harlow people don't know what's on don't erm you know they they don't really have contact with erm they don't always use Harvey.
[speaker001:] So.
[speaker006:] Er erm I'm sorry it is the question now that I'm going to come to was going back to organisation how often does the board meet? and who does it regard as?
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker007:] John Company Secretary. erm in the first place there are no bylaws restricting the display of posters in Harlow erm there are however town planning er restraints on and indeed there are a recognised number of sites which can be used for that purpose. erm on the question of the board all is answerable to the general meeting of the er company it's held in the Autumn of each year.
[speaker001:] Right is there anybody that hasn't asked a question.
[speaker008:] It's not so much a question it's a comment. Yes erm listening to the punters I mean I know loads of people come up here and there's one thing which all of them tend to say and that this place is threatening. They come in and they're worried about the place they they feel it unfriendly.
[speaker001:] What the auditorium or the whole?
[speaker008:] Ev the whole building.
[speaker001:] The whole building.
[speaker008:] It's tacky it's erm well as soon as they come in the door they wanna walk out and that that's an overall opinion that's not just me or a couple of mates that's everybody. And what I'd like to know is is the board.
[speaker010:] That's your opinion not mine not everybody.
[speaker008:] I didn't say it was mine I said it was the people I've spoken to.
[speaker010:] Eh er don't sorry.
[speaker008:] Right so can I have my opinion or or can I speak with these other people's opinion
[speaker010:] Yes please do
[speaker008:] or shall we listen to you?
[speaker010:] please do
[speaker008:] Right I am saying it's people that I've spoken to.
[speaker001:] Right okay.
[speaker008:] Is that clear it's people that've spoken to.
[speaker010:] Yeah.
[speaker008:] Thank you. Right has the board consider giving this place I mean I I understand the the trouble with money etc but looking at making this place more inviting, at all? Yeah I mean have they just sort of said okay right as it is that'll do or are they seriously looking at making this place an inviting place to come to?
[speaker001:] Yeah I mean two things. First of all the as you I think you touched on the board's got to work on a budget.
[speaker008:] That's right yeah.
[speaker001:] Money is tight so we need to be quite clear on I mean for instance I mean the seats have been recovered you know people smoking in the seats when they shouldn't be smoking and putting they're putting their cigarette's out on the floor I don't know
[speaker008:] Oh yeah but were not talking about.
[speaker001:] No I'm not so I mean things like that there's wear and tear I mean the seats have to be recovered the carpet's have to be replaced the place has to be redecorated yes we do that. I mean the foyer when you come in to the building when the place was refurbished that was that we got the consultant's to look at the into the foyer and what you see as you come into the building is the recommendations of those consultants were talking about having a red foyer making it inviting and friendly that was their recommendation which was adopted. The whole carpeting of the building which has been done was that the consultants come in look at colour schemes and say this is what to do. So yes the answer to the question is yes there is a budget there is a budget and we need to do things now one of the problems could be the budget isn't sufficient to cover all that needs doing so I think you'll find that the building been built at a certain time there a comes a time you've got plan a maintenance programme which we have things need to be done. I think we need I accept I think we need to look at certain areas we need to look at the entrance I mean if we were doing the entrance again we would have electric doors on what like they've got on the Harvey Centre so you don't have to fight your way in I'm thinking of doors like this we'll do that. The colour the what the lay out of the foyer we would look at again to make it more inviting more friendly we'll do that. And I think when we talk in terms in getting around to spending the money we have got then we need to look quite clearly about how you make a place more inviting and it's also about when people come into the building how they're met what the receptionists like, when they ring up can they get through and I mean I'm I'm surprised that's said about the tickets that I think that our reception ticket areas an excellent area the people working there are first class are very friendly very helpful so it's trying to get that sort of concept through the building I thin k we work on that I think the building's kept very clean people who clean the building are very good but I hear what you're saying and I thinks it's been said earlier by the lady here by the foyer downstairs she feels threatened when she goes into that bar because I think the whole decor and the way it is is a threatening place I think we need to look at those so that was an old and.
[speaker008:] But this this is spilling out onto the steps of the place. You've got you've got rubbish everywhere for a start.
[speaker001:] Well that is
[speaker008:] Is that is that the Council or is that the playhouse.
[speaker001:] That's people. Well first of all that's people. If you actually you actually look at the front of the building there's a great deal of money been spent there's been new flower er boxes put out there.
[speaker008:] Yes.
[speaker001:] It's all been replanted and apart the fact that people pull them out is.
[speaker008:] So why is there not somebody responsible security say why why don't they go out there and stop it? I mean I've I've chased more people off
[speaker010:] Here here
[speaker008:] I've chased more people off than the security has.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker008:] Now have they got a directive to look after the front now or not?
[speaker001:] I really I really do wish it was that simple and I wish that when I pick up The Star on a Thursday or one of the other local papers that I didn't read in it the twenty cars that's broken into and and all the other problems and I say to myself now why did that happen. All I do know is that we're very conscious a great deal of money's been spent by the Council and by the Trust to try and make the place outside more inviting those tubs been put there er they been planted etc there's a lot of litter there we've put litter bins there there's taxi rank there there's lot's of things been put there I think the problem is it isn't the people who do that I mean it's the people who actually do the litter and it's quite clear that we do go out we do tidy up but it happens and it's a case of balance of what we can do and what you can't do but we do work at it I can assure you.
[speaker008:] Surely Tom one of the main criteria should be placing seats in the studio theatre for something with a bit more comfortable that way perhaps the punter's will come back more often it's easier to make a punter come back than it is getting in there in the first place..
[speaker001:] Are you anybody Dor I've got erm Doris here is is there anybody hasn't asked I wanna sort of brig to some conclusion because people are getting restless Doris.
[speaker009:] Tom mine is a comment and a request. erm as many people here know and like them I have worked in a voluntary capacity and one way or another in this theatre for many years and we can't do without it we don't want to see it close or any of those drastic things. Were all very concerned to keep it open and keep it flourishing.
[speaker010:] Here here
[speaker009:] And with this in mind and I'm I'm you will notice that I haven't spoken at all and that is quite deliberate on my part but then I can also say the same for many people sitting round here who know quite well that they haven't spoken either. Is it possible for some of us and perhaps representative's of organisations or a group of us and I know I can talk to the board but I'm not necessarily speaking for anybody else if I natter to you other than myself. And I think it's very important that people can come and talk to you and some representative's of the board because there is unrest Tom and I'm not prepared to stick my neck out and say in what quarter this lies but it can be got over it can be ironed out because running a theatre is to do with team spirit and that team spirit get's conveyed to the public. A happy theatre a happy ship if you like a corny phrase to use is very very apparent and I'm sure my colleagues and friends around here would appreciate because they do believe they can't get at the management committee and they would like to so please Tom will that be possible at some time in the near future?
[speaker001:] I assume so yes but erm also well yeah well yeah fine
[speaker009:] Thank you [clapping]

[speaker001:] Ok can I draw to some sorry. I take it as a last question, comment.
[speaker002:] Angela I'd like, I'd just like to ask if we could have a meeting about the future of the gallery.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And I'd like art teacher's in all the school's all around, not just Harlow but Hoddesdon Hertford all around Epping to be asked I'd like artists to be asked from all around erm Essex has a directory of artists Eastern Arts has a directory of artists, I think you could probably find quite a lot of people. I don't think we're very well represented here tonight and I think there's a a lot of not well used a terrible waste of space. And we need to say that you know I don't think that it's criminal to have a gallery but it's criminal to waste the space some of the time.
[speaker001:] Yeah, we'll look at that yeah that's sort of.
[speaker002:] Can I just say before you close, is a you out a hand out before everybody was here can some more of those be run off with a questionnaire
[speaker001:] Perhaps I should mention now I mean I I I'm not fill in questionnaire's but it would it would be helpful if you actually did erm fill in that before you actually leave this evening and leave it on the on the table on the way out if that's possible I think that, that information which you put on them would be useful. Can I just say a conclusion I'm not sure how you feel how the meeting's gone this evening I think it's been very positive meeting at least people have actually said what there concerns are and actually raised eh, some, some of the issues. I also give a guarantee that it isn't just a one off situation, meeting we all go away and forget about what we've said I can assure you that won't happen minutes have been taken and and what's been said this evening that will be conveyed to the management committee meeting the board meeting and I think we need to look very clearly at a very closely what's been said and respond to what's been said and I think that it's been suggested also raised this evening about having a further meeting to report back and say erm this has been said this is our response. I think that that will happen also. I hope you've found the meeting this evening positive, I'm sure you haven't heard perhaps if the people found after the this evening and the guy up there reckons we ought to retire, well I don't think we will retire but I think we will be responding to the things that you raised this evening I happen to think the Harlow theatre I'm not sure how you measure success, erm I think we measure it's success in the fact that people actually do use the building, people do come to see the shows. I am aware of the difficult times that other theatre companies who actually face in this moment in time and I am very grateful when I and I've always been grateful to the Harlow Council for the funding of the Council has given to the theatre, has given to the theatre over the years. It's interesting that erm many been said, many of the other local authorities in the area certainly don't produce or put on as what Harlow Council does, they certainly don't from the arts like Harlow Council does and I think we have all got a gratitude to the Council even in difficult times the money spends on the arts. The the Council looking at the whole process of how it spends it money what it does, I think the theatre the start of this evening we were looking quite close about what we do and how we do it what we don't do and what we should do and I think from what's been said this evening will be re look closely the questions you've raised things that you've raised we'll report it back to you in the hope of this meeting that we'll actually moved forward because I think it's in everybody interest everybody's interest if the playhouse closes. The playhouse in the Harlow is about the people in Harlow and about the people that come in from outside of Harlow I'm very conscious that we do serve a very wide community and I am pleased that people with other sounds come and support the theatre has been rightly said if they didn't come in to Harlow to support the theatre we would have major problems. So could I just in conclusion say please fill in your short questionnaire thank you for your attendance and I can assure you as Chairman of the trust what you said and the question's you've raised this evening will be looked at in great detail and we will be reporting back to you in the near future about the proposals that we wish to make. Thank you. [clapping]

[speaker001:] It wouldn't be any bother to me, if you
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Wanted me to.
[speaker002:] Well we'll do that, I see what see says any rate on Monday.
[speaker001:] But I don't think we should give her too long, cos she's got herself into. Mm. Yes. Yes. Keep putting up, we've had her for about two years haven't we?
[speaker002:] Yes, she did say last time one of her friends would like the job.
[speaker001:] Oh god. Oh no, no. She's told them how easy it is. She's told them what to do, birds of a feather.
[speaker002:] Yeah,.
[speaker001:] Rose would you consider a man, I've got an idea there might still be a possibility of Mr
[speaker002:] Well I don't see why not, if he, if he did.
[speaker001:] Some men are very good.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Some men are very good, we've got a good one at the church hall pub next door, I mean.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Toilets and things there. That's right.
[speaker002:] Yes, I mean that would be very good.
[speaker001:] I think.
[speaker002:] I'll have words with Sharon on Monday and er, oh I can't, yes I can on Monday I'm having my hair cut later, but I can come up about nine o'clock and see if she's here.
[speaker001:] I bet she won't be. No, I bet. She'll be in the penny farthing then.
[speaker002:] Well, I will then have to ring her won't I?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So will you all get round to your limerick's please ladies.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] Thank you all very much.
[speaker001:] Thank you. Elsie, oh.

[speaker001:] Er, one from Elizabeth and one from Ron.
[speaker002:] One from Ron and one from Elizabeth.
[speaker001:] I've got erm, a letter from Ron in addition to his apologies.
[speaker002:] Right and you'll be reading that other report will ya?.
[speaker001:] Yeah,.
[speaker002:] Right. Er, minutes of the last meeting, can we take them as read?
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] Thank you... Matters arising from that meeting which took place on the thirty first July.
[speaker001:] Many of the matters arising will come up in my report of correspondence.
[speaker002:] Mm, Mm... You might like to, when you come around to it Lilly, say that was on T V, that T V and benefits the er, our campaign.
[speaker001:] When's that?
[speaker002:] We have a few days to go to that looking into it now, so if, you know.
[speaker001:] Oh, soon. Are they? Oh.
[speaker002:] Yeah, we are doing some good.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] You know the, coming home to the, it's all coming home to roost.
[speaker001:] On page one Harlow radio, I have written to them and erm with the nomination of Pauline and she has already been communicated with...
[speaker004:] Have you had the eh chair, have you had any reports on the bus company regarding the hand rails?
[speaker002:] None what's so ever.
[speaker004:] Safety rails, none what's so ever no.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] That's typical, a really smoothy eh?
[speaker002:] I take it you've all read your minutes?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Are there any further matters arising before we pass onto the next item on the agenda?... Right, could we have correspondence please secretary.
[speaker001:] Er do you want me to stand or can you hear alright?.
[speaker002:] No, no, I think they can hear alright. It's necessary for you to stand.
[speaker001:] Erm, the first one is a letter from Ron, he, he's in Milton Keynes with his family at the moment, on holiday, and he will be missing this meeting action tomorrow and unfortunately the September Executive, erm, he's reported on the erm market stall which I'll come to a bit later, I ask you for details about that and for the enclose with it erm, a statement issued by the association nationally on pensioner's and the Poll Tax. This is er a condemnation of the jailing and threat of jailing of pensioner's for pay failing to pay the Poll Tax. The Government has admitted that forcing the poorest of pensioner's who are on Income Support to pay twenty per cent of the proposed Council Tax would be Tax, would be wrong. It cannot therefore now justify that it was right to cause those same pensioner's to pay twenty per cent of the Poll Tax. The association cause for the ending of criminalisa criminalisation, the word, of pensioner's, who's only fault is their poverty, it is confident that the British people will support this cause and that their protest will be, speedily bring to an end a situation which is the shame of our Country, that's signed by the President of the British Pensioner's and Fred the Secretary. That's issued by the General Purposes Committee. The second, does anyone want to say any about that? it's just that they probably sent it to the appropriate people. There's another item of news, which erm, er Ron only got on the sixteenth August and it's about the pre-congress pensioner's march and rally, now the congress is held in Glasgow, so I think we weren't going to that one anyway, but it just giving details of erm the arrangements for the pensioner's march which we usually have, we usually attend if it's in the South anywhere, but that's just for information. The second item of erm correspondence is from Bromley's Bromley's Social Services, if you remember, we've got this on going campaign on home helps and along side that we've got erm, we did hear of t his home shopping erm campaign that Bromley do, apparently quite successfully, the MP has mentioned that, so I thought I'd get some details of that erm, it gives the whole procedure for, for the er shopping and the delivery and the Social Services pay out for it, they pay a charge, erm if you'd like this copied, I could get copies for the next meeting, but meanwhile I'd recommend that erm we take it up with Benefits Action tomorrow on the campaign. Do, do we agree with that?
[speaker002:] I agree with that, yes.
[speaker001:] It's just a general procedure of er ordering from, it's, it's limited to Asda and erm the general helpful way. They haven't said much about the cost, anything about the cost, and they haven't said whether, well they wouldn't would they?, [LAUGHTER], whether anyone was dissatisfied, cos I understand from my family that they have been met you know they have been raised in the press, but it's not a hundred per cent. The erm, second is minutes from Health Action, as you know, a lot of our members are concerned of Health Action, and they next meeting will be on the thirtieth September, with the Chief Execu Executive Kath Kathy, er, who will be speaking. Now with regard to that I'd rather feel that were gonna be called on before then, because of the rumours about our own hospital.
[speaker002:] What about?.
[speaker001:] Which are quite frightening about opting out, erm some of you will remember that we'd attended Welwyn Garden City on a picket a month ago, and erm as a result of campaigning there, within the hospital, with the press and the Council, they have been turned down so they are not being allowed to opt out. I also understand that Basildon has erm got the same fate, so you know, it looks as if were in for a campaign there. Perhaps Pauline you've got some news on that?
[speaker005:] Yes, erm if I could here, I did want to add some cos obviously I think everybody was taken by surprised.
[speaker002:] Come to the front Pauline.
[speaker001:] Yeah, we'd, we'd like to hear about it cos were all very worried, huh.
[speaker005:] Well on the issue of what's happening in the er Health Authority here, it's a very much erm a surprise to everybody because those of us who were at the last meeting that we had, only a couple of months ago, to quite categorically saying that, she, that she was just not interested in the. And apparently her view now is that because the Government ha have said, anybody who is interested in becoming a in nineteen ninety three, must register an interest on sixteenth this year, which is really, that's, you know, there legislating for what they haven't got any power in nineteen ninety three.
[speaker002:] Can't rely on that, can't rely on it.
[speaker005:] They've only been elected to nineteen ninety two, so they're, they're really, what there doing there forcing people to take some action now, because at Kathy says, she's afraid of being left out, if there should be a, another Tory Government, so a lot of people are in the same position, they will be putting in eh, I think they just call it best of interest, not a proper application, but then if the whole lot, hundreds of us come along, which is quite likely they will, the Government will say well this proves that everybody wants to become you see, so it's rather clever move, erm, as, as far as I'm concerned, what's happening with that she is eh here within the hospital, the consultant's and the worker's in the hospital. Also far as I know, there is no intention of discussion it with members of the public or patient's or union or anything like that. So as a result to that, there, there erm, there is going to be a public meeting on the tenth September, which is actually organised by the Labour party, erm, but obviously the who thing very worried about the attendance at that, erm the, have, had to organise it very quickly because he wants to get it in before the sixteenth, we'll still trying to get erm a National speaker, I'm hoping that Julie from the er, eh National Help Federation will be able to come, but she's on holiday till Monday erm, I don't.
[speaker001:] will go ahead whether we have a National speaker or not?
[speaker005:] I did wonder whether we ought to call a, a, a, sort of emergency meeting of Harlow Health Action, but I was away myself until last few days, so it's difficult to do that, so what we've are, I've agreed with Dave, the secretary, we've produced a leaflet, which is based on one of the Federations leaflet, it gives the reason to be against opting out. We just have used a simplified version of that. The one the Federation produced is very good, but a lot of reading in it, so, we wanted one we could hand out to people and the the intention is that we, we go on the market next week Thursday and Friday to hand out that leaflet, also to advertise the meeting on the tenth, erm, so that really is as far, and obviously the meetings that, that Lilly just said that Kathy 's coming, that would be an opportunity to erm you know, discuss it further with her. If they do go ahead and put the application in, which I think they will, then, that's the start of the process, so that's a good time when we will need to really step up the campaign and we will get National speaker's to meetings, we will get probably a petition, we will go round the area like we did over the er non funding, but we had to do something quickly, to, to make it clear, you know, we don't want this to go ahead. Erm, hopefully we'll have the same effect that 'em they had in Basildon and erm.
[speaker001:] Welwyn.
[speaker002:] Welwyn.
[speaker005:] Welwyn, er because that really is a good example. I'm actually also hoping to get, someone who was erm concerned at the campaign to come to the meeting, cos I think it would be very useful to have someone who's been through it and to say how, how they tackled it, so I think it should an interesting meeting, hopefully we'll get a few, you know interesting people to come along and we can spend from that meeting campaign. Erm, there's also, I just wanted to say a bit about the ambulance er.
[speaker001:] What, what date next week are they?
[speaker005:] It's the Thursday and Friday, that's the fifth and sixth, fifth and sixth?
[speaker002:] Er, yes, that's right.
[speaker005:] Between ten and two.
[speaker002:] Ah, that's, that's also, that's also the day the fifth is we, we will be at eh Basildon.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Ah.
[speaker001:] Well not all of us.
[speaker002:] Not all of us.
[speaker001:] Only five of us.
[speaker002:] But eh.
[speaker005:] Right, well, we'll have to, but you know if people have to let me know if they can turn up then.
[speaker002:] Sixth, yes, I can come on the Friday.
[speaker005:] Sixth is the Friday. Yeah, well I mean I think we need to get as many as possible.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] To turn up, who are not going to Basildon.
[speaker004:] What car they going in?
[speaker005:] Yes, well eh.
[speaker002:] Ten till two, usual?
[speaker005:] Ten till two, yes.
[speaker004:] Thursday and Friday.
[speaker005:] Thursday and Friday that's right.
[speaker004:] What time is it?
[speaker002:] Ten till two.
[speaker004:] The public meeting?
[speaker005:] The public meeting is on the tenth at, here, the Town Hall at eight o'clock.
[speaker004:] Town Hall, eight o'clock at night?
[speaker005:] Eight o'clock, yes.
[speaker002:] We've already got that haven't we?, we've already been told that haven't we?
[speaker005:] Well I. Erm, if I.
[speaker001:] Do you, do you want me Health Action Banner for that? cos I've got it at home.
[speaker005:] Ooh, yeah.
[speaker001:] The.
[speaker005:] I think the more things that.
[speaker001:] Only as we've lost the last one, I'm hanging on to, it's hanging in my wardrobe, I'm not making a third one
[speaker005:] Your hanging onto it Yeah. No. Erm, just if I could say about the, there's something next week also about the ambulance. The erm, we only just, this week discovered that the Regional Health Authority are going to consider the ambulance proposal next Wednesday.
[speaker001:] Ah, yeah.
[speaker005:] Were hoping to get a mini bus, I don't think we ought take a bus because we were very badly treated when we did that, we don't to allow ourselves open to that again, but I have written to say were hoping to get enough people to take a mini bus. If, in the mornings you remember, we, we started to leave, leave quite early about eight o'clock, cos the other bus were late. So if anyone's interested in going on that, get in touch with me or Dave, we'll erm, say we don't need to many but I think we can take a few and we will take our petition with us on that one, the animal petition.
[speaker002:] When is that one Pauline?
[speaker005:] That's next Wednesday, were get the.
[speaker004:] Pauline.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] They, they will have to pick us up I'm afraid, cos our pass is not valued till nine o'clock.
[speaker005:] Six o'clock, I mean it won't be very many people who's been invited so we can probably arrange that.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Erm, but at the moment were still looking for a driver.
[speaker002:] And that's next Wednesday?
[speaker005:] That's next Wednesday, if we don't get enough we'll probably just take a car, but, but anyway, there's going to be a lot going on actually on this.
[speaker001:] Could we indicate that if they can go.
[speaker005:] Yeah, anybody interested in, what, on, on Wednesday?
[speaker003:] About Thursday. Yeah, there's London. Eight o'clock in the morning.
[speaker005:] eight o'clock in the morning.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Where's it go?
[speaker005:] Going to London, to Regional Health Authority to attend present petition and to see what they do about the animals petition. If in fact where they decide whether to pass it on the.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker005:] Right, there's, one, two, three, four, five, six.
[speaker002:] And the other half, you know.
[speaker005:] Well actually that maybe enough because if get say Terry from Waltham Abbey
[speaker003:] That's the misses.
[speaker005:] and were hoping to get somebody from Bishop's Stortford I think it's important to have a, and I'm also going to ask Bob, the ambulance driver if he's free to come, I think we can use the. So I think that cover so if those people can.
[speaker004:] What.
[speaker005:] Well I think we can arrange to pick you up as we go at that time, you'll of eh, because I know that bus passes don't cover that.
[speaker002:] Dave driving is he?
[speaker005:] Well the problem is he has to say he has a licence for you, he hasn't so, it's possible that Terry will be.
[speaker002:] Ah, oh Terry, I see.
[speaker005:] Yeah, we'll still getting, trying to get in touch with him, but we'll find a driver one way or another.
[speaker003:] There's one from The Stow area.
[speaker005:] Yes, yes you, you can see him tomorrow that's a good idea those who can, can okay.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Filling up a blank week.
[speaker002:] Thank you Pauline, very, that er very good report on the Health Service.
[speaker001:] The next item of correspondence is just the minutes of benefits action and I, I think you'll mostly up to date on those, on that. At the last meeting erm... Sue gave a drafted, an open letter to Jerry Hayes. This is mainly dealing with the Social Fund which as you know, is erm,go undergoing changes, which means er loss of money and breaking up the fundings to twelve monthly amounts, which is creating great difficulties. If you apply to the fund at the beginning of the month you'll likely to get something, but hard luck if you apply later on in the month, but that she's taken up as an open letter to Jerry Hayes, but so far I haven't seen it in the press. Erm the budget increase is for Social Fund, for years, eighty seven and eight eight was two ninety five thousand, one hundred and ninety, under the new system in the first year it went down to fifty seven thousand one oh seven. As you know because of the activities of benefit's action over a couple of years, Social Fund in Harlow was quite good because we urged people to apply and Social Fund was then based on the year before's applications, but this doesn't apply now. Home help's we like, were meeting tomorrow and were hoping that Renee will come along and eh update us on things so that we can campaign again starting in October. Erm, mm excuse me. Now out, outside corres that's all the correspondence. Outside correspondence erm, the chairman and Archie have dealt with er erm, complaint from a member er I don't know the outcome of it, but it's a lady that they have seen. I have another query on the world women women's erm work from Margaret who isn't here I don't think this afternoon, and that was about erm you know the female test and the time taken for the results to come through. Well I, I've been on to world wom women's committee and they assure me that they, the hospital says these tests should come through in a week, at the most three week's, but you can phone them, so that certainly has improved, there doesn't seem to be a back log. We have another in... erm on Thompson's Directory, we said we were asked if we would like a mention there, and that has been put in hand, with at the moment the Chairman's name and address and telephone number, but when we get our office I've no doubt we can change that because we'll have a rota for the office and probably just morning hours and that can go in another copy. Now apart from that, we had a phone call from Mrs who's here at the moment and she'll probably, and I'll tell you what I've got on that. We had a phone call erm a year or two ago Mrs did a lot of work on this with petition's and so on about the costs of pensioner's for animal treatment, because the P D S A no longer operates in Harlow and the nearest one I think is Edmonton, which makes it impossible. At the time we took up the, the secretary took took up the matter and I got him to send us er a copy of the reply, and it, it appears that, as you know it's all voluntary and, and it relies charity for individuals, but I noticed, I only got this from Ron yesterday, paragraph here says, where the community demonstrates it's active support for such adventure, then there is an increase likelihood of the establish of a service, although it has to be said that there already exists a waiting list of communities eager to re receive P D S A support. Now I think, er and I'm sure that Mrs will, I've I've got other information as well, that we could, I, I, I'd like to recommend that we had an on going petition which could be in Welfare Rights, the Town Hall, The Libraries, but there's no, I don't think there's an opposition to such a thing, whereby we ask for a P D S A clinic in Harlow, I'm sure there's room round where they were sit, sited before, and I don't know, you know, I'd like to know what Mrs 's thinks, also I've got information er, a, following lots of phone calls erm there is an organisation called The Blue Cross, they have a clinic in Victoria and they're, they have a head office in Oxford and they will help if they know the name of the vet and have the invoice and I'm afraid it's tested, but they will help pensioner's and other low paid people to meet there bill's, so that's another outcome, while were doing the petition. What do you think of that?.
[speaker002:] Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy.
[speaker001:] Beryl are you? Is she here?
[speaker002:] Is Mrs in the audience today.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Ah, like, like to see who you are Mrs I see, thank you. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Have you got, have you got anything, you know, think we can take it further than that? Do you think we can take it further? Or shall, what do you think of haven't it petitioned?
[speaker006:] Well, I, I heard from Inspector yesterday.
[speaker001:] Who?
[speaker006:] Inspector.
[speaker002:] Yeah, Inspector.
[speaker006:] I phoned him yesterday, and er, I ask him whether it was right that er what I suspected, that the er vets, the private vets, there with a union, you will not get the R S P C A, they work on there on behalf. They beg you. They have to erm, first of all ask er R S P C A funding it, which is very much against anyway because I, I hate being humiliated by the this way. So if it's a P D S A clinic you wouldn't have to do that you can just give er.
[speaker001:] No you just contribute mm.
[speaker006:] Erm, you've got that to tend with and erm on top of that erm, you can't ware of if you've got a pass yes, I, you've then have to er, get, you know, whether though it'll be going to a and at the moment there suppose to be very, very low so they can't do that any more and then you'll have to, the vet will then do the treatment for the animal, but again you don't get the vet you'll only get the training vet's to do the job and then they reclaim from the R S P C A, so it, no way that they haven't got any funds.
[speaker003:] Oh, see, so that they get there full.
[speaker001:] Well there doing this for fund, of course funding for everything even church.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] Going down, if not stop for the thing. But what, what do you think about erm demanding er erm a P D S A place in Harlow?
[speaker006:] Well, I, I, I have asked for that, I've written to the P D S A, I've written to the.
[speaker001:] Well, we have too, yes.
[speaker006:] You have also?
[speaker001:] When we, when we first took it up Beryl we did that.
[speaker006:] That's right, I've, I've been through over the year's I've been doing this and they say, whether it's because they know if the background at the er vets, the private vets there, you know I don't know, but the information I get from them, that there'd a, there not prepared to over.
[speaker001:] Well this, this was a letter of the, granted it was eighty nine, but I mean this paragraph just said, you know, if we, does say that, you know, if we established a, a demand, and I don't see why we shouldn't have a bash at.
[speaker006:] Well then I have the inspector.
[speaker001:] I mean, if we have a petition like they do on the counter in Welfare Rights in the Town Hall, I don't think there be any opposition to that and the Libraries for the setting up of a P D S A branch, you know, I don't see why, why we shouldn't give it a try.
[speaker003:] There is one at the Wych Elm still open.
[speaker001:] Pardon.
[speaker003:] That R S P C A at Wych Elm.
[speaker006:] At Wych Elm.. I, I asked the inspector yesterday.
[speaker003:] Yeah, only.
[speaker006:] Is, is it possible that we could have a, a vet, a R S P C A vet and take, uses that hut even two days a week would be a great help to the pensioners.
[speaker001:] But, then.
[speaker006:] And all he said, the whole of.
[speaker001:] Mm, Mm.
[speaker002:] I was sep separate and apart from that, they would have to have a operating room and a dispensary there, you see that's what they would have to have, I mean, if there gonna have P D S A premises, this is what you've got to have, cos very often the animal has to be put under and all sorts of things, you know what I mean, it wouldn't be just an office with say like a physician and a tenants, it would be a case of a, a surgery and things in that nature which would be required by, er quite a number of animals.
[speaker003:] Mm, that.
[speaker002:] So your talking about a big space, your not talking about a small office. That's what we've got to take into consideration.
[speaker003:] Mm. Yeah.
[speaker006:] Well anyway, whatever I I tried to get him to erm, cos I've written again to the newspaper, I've tried to get him to confess that, that the unions are the biggest because erm, even then I said to tell him well supposing that we could get, I said, erm you know the money to support you, I said just supposingly I said would be private vet, and he said what you dare say they would have to have there.
[speaker002:] When there, when you say a union, what do you mean a union in a true sense of the word, or do you mean an organisation, which is something va vastly different because they way your, they way your saying this to me, this doesn't sound like a union at all. This, this sounds very much like some, er organisation based on the establishment to me that's what it sounds like which eh, were one would expect.
[speaker006:] Sorry, the only one I eh, I eh got this idea was when I first took this up I went into the hut in the town, and I picked up the booklets, you know that they have on the counter, and in one of these booklets it had that the vet's were now I don't know what I'm, I'm very lost for everything like this, but they've kept and therefore if your animal needed, your pet needed treatment it would be done by the private vet's and eh,mon the money would be re would be reclaimed by the vet from the R S P C A, and I think that gave to erm.
[speaker002:] Well, what I think I shall do now is I think I should take this a little further about this union business, I think I should get in touch with Dave, the Editor of the T U C to find out what the exact position of these, this so called union is because it doesn't sound like a union to me, it sounds, it sounds like an.
[speaker003:] ..
[speaker002:] It sounds like an association.. He would be able to find, they would be able to find out what they are.. I'm talking about the unions.
[speaker007:] I mean the resources then.
[speaker002:] Yeah, the resource teller.
[speaker007:] .
[speaker002:] Yeah, he would be able to find out what type of union this is, or whether it's some establishment association, we try quite frankly, I, I, I think it is. From the way this lady spoke it seems to me like, like a that, that sort of er organisation, from the establishment.
[speaker003:] Another things is.
[speaker002:] We'll have to make of this because we can't keep.
[speaker001:] . Just say we go ahead with the decision.
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker006:] Now that I had to get it to the by taxi and she had seven stitches put in the leg and, I had to leave her there for six hours, well then it was a taxi back home, I couldn't now I am on income support, but that cost me fifty four pound, ninety five and I am paying that.
[speaker002:] Mm, well look, what I'm going to say to you know is, time marches on, that, do you agree that we go ahead with what Lillian's suggesting?
[speaker001:] That we try out a petition throughout all the centre's in the town.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yes.
[speaker002:] All those in agreement raise. Right, carried, so that's what we'll do, okay.
[speaker001:] Erm, erm, do, do you have, have you got erm, Beryl have you got the Blue Cross address in Oxford?
[speaker006:] Yes, I've got plenty.
[speaker001:] Okay, well if you've got it, that's alright, I'll see you afterwards.
[speaker002:] After, after the meeting. See her after the meeting, next business.
[speaker001:] Erm, can I go on now, to erm.
[speaker002:] Oh wait, I've got a, you'll pull yourself a fair enough.
[speaker001:] . Erm.
[speaker002:] We'll move it, start weekend, speed it up a little.
[speaker001:] Erm, due erm [knocking] there's also as you know, we've, we've had the chartered petition on the market and we are going on with that. The, it was officially launched in London yesterday at Ken's House, unfortunately neither of the two officer's could go, it was rather short notice, but it has been officially launched now as a national thing. Erm, there's a question of a rally in Central Hall, now in order to organise this pensioner's rally there short of funds, erm, I think the executive will be discussing this and as, as before we did give them quite a considerable donating, because it costs a thousand pounds to hire the centre hall and we do want to erm take part in a very big rally, like the last one was. Erm, erm, apart from the meeting last week the last, last month, er one of our mem one of our members noticed that erm we hadn't got a delegate to age concern and she volunteered, that's a Mrs would you like to okay that cos the Chairman and I speaking to her thought well this was a good idea and I have forwarded her name to age concern who've contact her. Is that all right?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Erm, we, we couldn't nominate anyone at the A G M, no one was willing to do it. Erm, oh god, the next item is the Essex Region and erm that was just a report from Norfolk on the success of it. Erm, from the E C were, we've decided to hold the usual Christmas social and Peggy and myself will organise as before with the usual conscripts, you know, the usual team of workers, volunteers I mean.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Erm unfortunately we can only have this room not the canteen this year.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] I will be writing to the normal firms as usual, to get donations for the raffle, er now the other thing I've got to report from is the stall, no before that the E C discussed applications by other organisations, now Sheffield and erm many other areas produce there own excellent publications, so I, I wrote of to Greater London Pensioner to Redbridge, to Senior Citizens in Sheffield, Anglian Pensioners, Grey Power and erm I, I've sent letter's to them and already had some copies back from Sheffield. Whilst on the market stall I had a Liverpool pensioner who hadn't seen a Liverpool organisation so when I got home I sent to her a notice of the huge rally there going to hold in September, in Liverpool with a couple of Bishop's and big national speakers, I sent that to her and also contacted a Liverpool pensioner secretary to get in touch with her, and we've also written to erm, that's the rally, erm, we've also, I've also written to Jim from Cumberland, if you remember er his down our rally, so we should have some, we decided to buy twelve copies of each publication they produce and one when we get our office will be available there.
[speaker002:] On file, on file.
[speaker001:] Erm, dum, dum, the market stall as you know, we didn't have it in the market, we had it on the thank goodness because we parked it in the shade, erm during that period we got five hundred and thirty two signatures, with three or four more of you it could of been a thousand, erm we also got fourteen pounds, seventeen in donations, all completely unasked for cos as you know, we don't take money. Erm so two pounds of that went with sale with the sale of the journal and so we can say we had twelve pounds unsolicited donations, erm as Peggy would back me up if she was here, saying that [drilling noise] any time you ask someone to sign the flood gates open with what they thought about the position of pensioners, in fact we've probably got a lot more signatures if they hadn't, but erm, we did pick up, we, I picked up the news about Welwyn Garden City's cost of and things like that not going through and erm [LAUGHTER], erm, now, our month our monthly, our monthly stall will not be on the third third Thursday this year, it will be on the fourth to co-inside with the week were celebrating pensioner's week, which is a week behind National. Erm that means we have a stall on Tuesday the twenty fourth, Wednesday we've got our meeting here with the speaker about, were having Mike speaking on Czechoslovakian now and he'll be telling us his experiences over there and his had a long association with Czechoslovakia and Harlow and Thursday were having a market stall with a jazz band and Norman could probably tell us more about that. Do you want to go ahead with the Tuesday stall?
[speaker003:] A, the Tuesday stall was a bit debatable at the moment because what has happened is, I heard from the er from Mr Stuart that he, he thought that er could assist us and that I should go over there and see them. I did do that along with Ron and er they were speaking in terms of er a conjurer at under a pound a time and thing of that nature which should then come to a the pensioner's category at Poole, so I took it back to Stuart and he said oh see what I can do Norman, and at the present moment it rests there because I haven't been able to contact Stuart at the moment owed to the holiday, but I shall be contacting him and hopefully we will also be doing two days, which is the Tuesday and the Thursday, also what they, er, he's, he's promised to do is to come half way with the cost of the jazz band, which is a great help. Er, so you can say that er Mr is a friend of pensioner's, he said, he said he would be prepared to, what I, I, I approached him and said er, what about Harlow Caring Council, are they prepared to assist the pensioners in any way or do they wish to join in on this, oh yes he said, of course Norman he said, how much are you paying er Ron I said well his asking forty pound for the, for the morning, oh he said I'll go half way with that, then he came out and said to me, pull me up afterwards and ask me to go to leisure services about the Tuesday, and so I'm still following that up and hopefully we will have two days on pensioner's week, because you want to have as much impact as possible and in a few moments, when I nearly finished here, I shall be reading you something where you'll see that it is important that we make an impact on the people of Harlow.
[speaker001:] Erm one of.
[speaker003:] It is the twenty fourth of September isn't it?
[speaker001:] Yes, twenty fourth.
[speaker003:] Well, it'll, it'll be the er, the twenty fourth and the twenty sixth.
[speaker001:] With our meeting in between.
[speaker003:] With our meeting in between.
[speaker001:] Erm, one of the things we had on the stall is erm this erm application form for N H S charges, now many people including probably people here don't know that erm, you don't have to be on supplementary to get help and Ann knows actually, er if your getting any rent or rate rebate and you fill this in, you'll get some help, in some cases quite considerable help, and I suggested that we had some of these on our store room, got some from Welfare Rights, and they went like hot cakes, because most people didn't know about this, so following that we shall have, we shall keep these on our stall and I've more or less suggested that Lisa on Age Concern in the Leah Manning should have them there because she's constantly getting enquiries on that, so she is going to do that. Erm so it's, it has been very useful. On news mobility, I had a copy of that last month and I've ordered twenty on each publication. Erm during the executive erm Mary raised a point from the joint planning team about the erm charter and the remarks made by Dr. on that, would you like to say something on that Mary? because we want to take some action.
[speaker008:] I to each other. I, I would like the association to write to this is from the. Members agree that proposal continue on in the ideal although it was commendable to set high standards. Dr. said it was a matter of trying to make a correct differential between right and whatever that means, and that the charter might tend to induce our views as defenders, instead of.
[speaker003:] That's right. That's right.
[speaker008:] Dr. our would like to know what other. I like a reply..
[speaker002:] Pensioner's charter.
[speaker003:] I gave it, I gave it too them.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] Yeah, I think, I think erm, what about this reply?
[speaker002:] Yeah, we'll get.
[speaker008:] on the twenty sixth of this month.
[speaker002:] Twenty sixth of this month.
[speaker008:] If you could definitely.
[speaker001:] Twenty sixth of August?
[speaker008:] No, sorry about that September.
[speaker002:] September.
[speaker008:] It's the last Friday in er September.
[speaker002:] The last Friday.
[speaker003:] Er, that's the twenty seventh, Friday.
[speaker001:] Well can.
[speaker008:] Pardon.
[speaker001:] Can erm, do you think Mary we can get together on reply on this?
[speaker008:] I do hope so, idea's terrific on it.
[speaker001:] Yeah, I think so.
[speaker008:] I, I don't think I could do it, I'm a.
[speaker002:] Well how about waiting until.
[speaker001:] I didn't mean for you to do it, but erm.
[speaker008:] Don't leave it too long Norman.
[speaker002:] Well yeah, I mean, your in the second week aren't ya? And you've got plenty of time, you've got a fortnight elapse between the two, we can come up with ideas, like the idea of that?
[speaker008:] Well I think the ideas should come from the members, well what do they think about it? I think it's great.
[speaker002:] Would you?
[speaker008:] I, I.
[speaker002:] If it's got to come to the members, it's gotta come today.
[speaker008:] Well I've a, you know, what I've said.
[speaker001:] I've, I'll get Dr. remarks in the minutes, there actually stated in the minutes.. Yeah, well, then we can, we can add an organisation er state where the charter, that it was launched yesterday, nationally and the people who were there at there launch, which I think.
[speaker008:] Yes, it.
[speaker001:] Yeah, I think, I haven't got details of that, but I think erm Ron has and also the fact that we've taken remarks and.
[speaker002:] Yeah, very much so.
[speaker003:] I mean, what's this small in the Daily Mail erm yesterday? you know, it makes it. I read it, yeah. .
[speaker002:] Oh yeah, that's right, can I read something out now then?
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah, well.
[speaker002:] Now.
[speaker001:] Can we finish this off?
[speaker002:] Right, yeah, you, finish, finish of Lilly.
[speaker003:] I like to independence with economics, you don't have your independence without economic independence.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker003:] That's what my.
[speaker002:] That's right, year.. I.
[speaker003:] There are people who have a good pension when there in retirement, don't there department, I'm the only one that's elected.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] I'm elected from the in West Essex. You nominated me.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] And elected by I represent all the bodies in West Sussex.
[speaker001:] Oh anyway, the charter has found it's way into the Daily Mail, Ann brought a small cutting and erm.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] Mm..
[speaker002:] Yeah.. Yeah.
[speaker003:] And what about this bit about.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker003:] If between right and.
[speaker002:] She's got to.. Ah?
[speaker003:] That's taken sarcasm to me. Sounds like. When, when a we were discussing it with said to me oh you don't believe in, he meant ah and I. You don't get any er help at all.
[speaker002:] Right, have you finished now?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Can we go ahead, or not? Can we go ahead.
[speaker001:] Well it's up to you.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] What'll you suggest?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] I've had a..
[speaker003:] But we do, we were in the.
[speaker002:] Oh Jesus Christ.
[speaker001:] We've still got some more.
[speaker002:] Oh go on then.
[speaker001:] Two more things. Erm.
[speaker002:] But keep me out of it.
[speaker001:] Erm, the last thing is, no, we, I don't want to stop the Chairman cos he's got something else as well. Erm Mary indicated at the last executive that she wants to retire from C H C [drilling noise] and she would like Pauline to take her place, have you an nomina, a nominee from here?
[speaker005:] Yes, this er nominating me, but again I.
[speaker001:] So who, who do we write to, to change erm.
[speaker005:] Secretary.
[speaker001:] Secretary of whom?
[speaker005:] I'm [drilling noise].
[speaker001:] So we write to the Secretary of C H C.
[speaker005:] [drilling noise].
[speaker001:] Mrs okay. And did people agree with that nomination.
[speaker005:] I've done it for seven years.
[speaker002:] Pauline..
[speaker003:] I think it'll be good for Pauline she gets a lot of information. I, I think it would be a very good for Pauline to go on. Yeah. And while were doing that, we should thank Mary for her seven years stint that she's done on. Yeah.
[speaker008:] We did ask Dorothy to do it after I did it for four years, but she wasn't keen and I had to go on.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And that's all I've got to report which has been quite a busy month.
[speaker002:] I've had a letter from our Ken He writes, pensioners are now, are growing vi vital contingency including many active gift enable people with other use, there often made to feel unwanted, there commonly neglected and there needs are seldom frequently met. At last that is being fixed. So I won't go through the rest of it, it's a long and er it's just brought us on the same sort of thing, but what it proves is that we are getting somewhere and that is what I thought was rather important news, which I want to do.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] To, to Angie you know, I mean a, were alright, we've got plenty of local issues, but I mean when we think of the, the big issues, these are the big issues that need to be looked into. Right madam secretary.
[speaker001:] That's all.
[speaker002:] That's all from you so can we have the financial report and you will switch off sir. Are we ready, have we finished tea?
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] Have we been the cups, if so. [tape turned over] Our speaker for this afternoon is a lady who I very much respect her, that's Ms, Mrs, or Miss Chris from the local unit. [clapping]. Chris.
[speaker001:] Thank you, thank you Norman. Erm I do recognise some faces, I know some of you recognise me and eh cos we've done quite a lot of things together, but this afternoon what I'm going to tell you about is how I fit in with Council, I don't think any of you know that or know what the Local Government Unit is. Erm, so, I'm gonna start off by talking about the Local Government Unit, where it fits in the Council organisation. Were, we're not attached to any sort of department, like housing or leisure, were actually in the organisation, were in the general management department and were not alone erm, the planning er originally the general manager's department and the winners and equality unit are in that department as well and the general manager has his own erm policy, officer and secretarian, so were in the general manager's department and in other Council's that would be known as the Chief Executive Department. Other Council's like Harlow do have central policy units which is what we would be described as, because people recognition that it's important that you need to have people who are outside departments looking at the organisation as a whole, what it's doing, where it's going, how it's being influenced by external organisation's, i.e. what the Health Service are doing locally, or what the Government's doing more significantly, erm, I think you need people looking around to see how the Council's affected and what, what were doing in and taking an overall view and responding in that way and that's the kind of thing that we do and that's why were here. Erm, I understand that erm somebody from the unit has had talked to your group before, but it's just as well to come and talk to you again because we've changed the Local Government Unit, not the same erm, unit that it was when we were first introduced, we've grown basically [LAUGHTER]. We've grown and erm brought other people, integrated other people in in with us. The person that is, is head of our unit is, is Carol and she's known as Principal Policy Co-Ordinator and she report's directly to the General Manager Der Erm, then we have three teams within the Local Government Unit, we have a Policy Team and I'm the team leader for the Policy Team and I'll talk about, I'll talk about our work later, but it's just to explain who we are. Then there's the Neighbourhood Development Team and that team is principally working on implementing the Council's decentralization and democratisation policy, opening local officer's, setting area committee's, some of, you maybe familiar, erm with that initiative I'm sure you are. That team deals principally with that and then there's the Community Development Team headed by John who worked with particular groups in the town. Now the reason why we've come together and this has been a recent change and it's been this year, erm is because there are overlaps without going into deep detail, there are overlaps in our work and we were working together as officer's anyway, but not as well as we should, so what we decided to do was formally integrate the three teams under the same unit, and we do have regular er internal meetings, management team meetings consisting of John, Pete me and Carol and we so we more co-ordinate the work for all the teams much more systema systematically, that we know what everybody's doing and that way we believe we can use best use of resources we've got most effectively. Then within the team's, in the Policy Team there were three Policy Development Officer's, in the Neighbourhood Development Team there were two Development Officer's and in the Community Development Team there are one, two, there are well there are normally six officer's that you could I that you could identify, but there are other people that relate to them, but then it gets a bit complicated so were keep it at that. The the great, the one thing about the Community Development Team to point out is that, they've got people working on pa particular in particular ways with the community. We've got two officer's for example who are leading on working the young people in the town, Youth Development Officer's er we, the Local Government Unit has a policy team initiated work on the youth policy, and this arose out of erm a member seminar's, September eighty nine, where er the members felt that really the Council wasn't doing enough for young people, that we as a Council, not not to think about young in the way we deliver our services and it was felt that we needed to go out and talked to young people, which we did in the winter of that year, erm and find out what they wanted from us, and the res as a result of that, that, that policy, and that consultation exercise has now developed into a front line service where we have two people full time working with young people in the town and that's on various things, graffiti project, the underpasses in the town we, which have got graffiti type I mean I know there not everybody's cup of tea, but I mean they way. when we erm, er when we were doing those projects we erm, we had a comments book and more, more people were in favour of them and saw them as an improvement to the town and so it needs something that's really interesting actually, it's er, erm the work's department have said, as a result of those graffiti projects they can shift two officer's from the graffiti team to the highway's team, so it's actually cut down on the work of actually clearing up unwanted graffiti, so it's had a positive effect, so we, we've got these two people work with the other people and we've got Dorothy who's working with, with black people and ethnic minorities in the town and erm for people who were here when this presentation was last given, er Robin who used to be in the local The Policy Team of the Local Government Unit is now actually a Community Development Officer, one of the decision's, Robin use to do video work for the Authority erm, and we decided we asset whether the the need for that kind of, k ind of work to continue, and we thought on balance not erm and he now is running the music rehearsal space over at Latton Bush, that again is a project for young people, to enable, it's a place where band's can practice and that's the problem in Harlow erm and er that's really exciting project because it's bringing in a lot of income for the Council as as well as providing the service that people want and, and it, I mean it is important at this time that we are doing limited projects where we are bringing in income, cos at, you know we estimate that erm we can get that erm rehearsal space properly resource, that project could be self financing, so your providing a service but your also getting paid, your getting paid for as well, so erm that is who we are now and were er, where were located, we have an open door policy as people will know. Were in the, the first floor of the Town Hall, erm along the corridor with, where the General Manager's office is and most of us can be found in there, so erm it is, I just think it's interesting for you to see how the things link up because, those of you that have contact with the Community Development Team will know that over at Latton Bush there is a Community Resource Centre, er that you can use, well that's linked in with us, and we provide information for us, so it's important that you know that if you go there, you also can have a connection with the Local Government Unit as as well, as a whole like the Policy Team if you, if you want information or anything. So it's just the, give you the background to show how were linked, so that's who we are and how we organize, is that clear, has anybody got any questions.
[speaker003:] Yeah, what's happen to the Steering Committee?
[speaker001:] What's happened to the Steering Committee?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] What the Local Government.
[speaker003:] Erm it doesn't meet.
[speaker001:] No it doesn't meet any more.
[speaker003:] Not at all.
[speaker001:] No. It, there, there hasn't, I came here in, when I came here in February eighty nine it was meeting to, and the idea being to discuss particular things, to get particular things off the ground, but it has, I think the reason why it, it didn't continue to meet was because it wasn't felt necessary basically.
[speaker003:] The problem is the people from the community the and that's important.
[speaker001:] Yes it's difficult.
[speaker003:] It means that your, you officer are running the whole show now.
[speaker001:] Yeah,
[speaker003:] And that, without input from the community.
[speaker001:] Well except that we do, I mean in in offence erm we don't get it from that particular forum, but I wouldn't say that, that is how we operate.
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker001:] Because the Local Government sub committee does, does. I mean deliberately the actual community itself was set up, so it does have representation from the, the community.
[speaker003:] Put. Mm.
[speaker001:] I'm, I'm certainly as I was going to come on to explain and the way you will see ourselves working, is not people who sit in the Town Hall and just turn out reports, I mean the kind of work we do and the way we work means that were actually very much involved in the community groups, but I mean if it was, if it was thought to be an issue that we needed to have greater community involvement, i.e. to resurrecting that forum then that's something that, you know, we may need to address, but I never saw it as operating like that anyway, I mean I saw it as it's almost like in a cabinet of members mainly..
[speaker003:] We were disappear.
[speaker001:] That's right, they get on the subject.
[speaker003:] Well I think that how it came.
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker003:] Can't remember them.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] What's is was what he was doing at the main committee anyway.. Well I think that er, you know, just didn't happen like that though, except things like that in one way and.
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Well I still miss it.
[speaker002:] I think the er, the sort of looked after her as well, especially in the evening times.
[speaker003:] Mm, yeah.
[speaker002:] Er, we go through Old Harlow.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] The people sort of eight o'clock, nine, and there just congregating by the Health Service there, anything night and I think a lot of the trouble.
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker003:] Got to do something.
[speaker001:] That's something we, we, that's what we found and one of the things we have got is this youth bus actually operating in the town and it erm, it's running three nights a week, we can't cover every bit of the town, but it goes to different area's of the town, The Stow, and Old Harlow, I mean we've actually got quite good relationship's with, with, with the young people in Old Harlow, but erm, I mean we can't cover every night, I mean there is a problem, of erm, you know, you you get from a position where you recognise it, you, you, you need to start catering for a particular group and it takes a long time getting there. I mean as, as a, the fact is that, like providing services for the young people is legally the responsibility for Es of Essex County Council.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And, and, you know, they've got paid youth officer's working in Harlow, now they are, there are, they're over they're over stretched it's true and, but we, I mean what were doing here is actually supplementing there service and were not meeting all, we wouldn't of erm meeting all the demands, but the important thing I think is that were continuing to erm, you know, were trying to do something about it, and one of the things that were trying to do as officer's in the Local Government Unit is work with Leisure Services and get them to put more resources into doing things for young people.
[speaker003:] You see, this, where we young we've had all the youth organisations which most of us belong to, that's all we had in those days.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] . And if you went to films. . That's all the organisations there were. We went to church.
[speaker002:] ..
[speaker001:] That's right, well actually, one of the documents that we produce, I haven't brought it along with me today, was a report, when we did the consultation, we, we produced erm, eh I mean we talked to young people and got their views on a whole range of areas, transport, housing, facilities, and we, we produced it in, in this news report, and it's very, rates were very interesting.
[speaker003:] I use the.
[speaker001:] Erm, read it, erm that's right. What does the, what does the youth bus actually do it, except go round on four wheels, I mean what's it's function?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] What's it's functions?. When it goes, I mean I'm speaking as a resident of The Stow and I know there's lot's of complaints and shop keepers and er people in the flats and that round you know the shops there and you do feel a bit intimidated if you walk through The Stow at night. Yep, yep. Erm, which is a shame because as kid's we all hung around street corners and cafe's and things. Well actually, the function of the youth bus is like in the absence of buildings in, in area's where people want to go, it's fulfilling that function, on the bus there are things like videos, people can play music, they also get erm, you know, we don't just let them do what they want to do, although were, you know, where quite erm, quite progressive with them, we actually provide, we have information on the the bus, provide information, we've got a Coun we involve local Councillor's like on Aids and stuff like that, I mean you have to be quite sensitive when you do something like that, you know especially if, you know, with the age group, erm, but erm, you know you get younger people coming on, twelve year olds to thirteen year old and what not. But I mean they are there to provide advice and we do get an awful lot of case work. Mm. You know, young, homeless people we pick up on this bus and er, we have, we we've sort of ended up pursuing their cases with the housing department and getting temporary accommodation.
[speaker003:] And do you ask there opinions about what they want?
[speaker001:] Eh, yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Continually, continually. But I mean we also, we, I mean we're providing a service for them to allow them to come on off the street, use the bus, right, but at the same time were trying to provide services for them because one of the things that came out in a consultation was, young people didn't feel that there was enough information for them in the town. They didn't feel for example they could go into the advice centre, they didn't feel it was for them.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And so erm, the youth bus is, is trying to fill that gap, it's not ideal, because what we actually want to do is get the advice centre to provide some information and to look at ways they can open up to young people.
[speaker003:] Yes Yeah, this was brought up last night at the meeting at of Old Harlow and Potter Street er forum.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[speaker003:] And it was brought up last time that erm, in the Potter Street area, not enough was being done to occupy the minds of the Yeah. And there is nowhere in that area for them to go. No.
[speaker001:] Mm. mm.
[speaker003:] And it was stressed quite strongly.
[speaker001:] Well that's good, I think that's really encouraging because it, it can't, you see, this is the sort of an example of the way our work goes, right. We in the Policy Unit say we, we, members raise something and we get onto it and say right, this is how we can tackle it. The big step is then getting the rest of the Council to take it on board, that's the big step, you know, leisure, the neighbourhood office's, I mean the neighbourhood office's are quite good, I mean they've got a, they've got a budget, a development budget, and like in Katherines and Sumners I know that a large proportion of the development budget there went on projects for young people, you know, so there are using there money.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So, erm, I mean, that was, we thought I came to a discussion about young people which is really good and it really did have people in your age group interesting.
[speaker003:] We are very interested.
[speaker001:] But that's er, [LAUGHTER] that's.
[speaker003:] We've all been young.
[speaker001:] I mean that's what we're doing on the Council for, but.
[speaker003:] We've been there. We've, we've all been tearaways.
[speaker001:] But, if I can.
[speaker002:] Ssh, [banging table].
[speaker001:] If I can I'll be.
[speaker002:] Quite please.
[speaker001:] General level and talk about the Local Government Unit and what are erm, what, how I see our main areas of work, right. How I would classify them. Erm, the first thing you do is a central policy thing, a major function is to analyze, interpret and develop strategic responses responses to all major Government legislation. When it, and the Government can produce fifty pieces of legislation affecting local government since nineteen seventy nine, I haven't been here since nineteen seventy nine thankfully, so I have to analyze everything, but they always landed our the ma the major ones and, so for example erm, it was the Local government Unit that produced the initial response of the Poll Tax, what strategy the Council should adopt er, the Council won't distance approach, we wanted to make it clear that the Poll Tax was a Government erm, it was a Government initiative and it was being forcedly on us and that was the way, did that effect it, that was a guided and then there was the nineteen eight nine local Government Housing Act, which I'm sure many of you. Familiar with, which is basically the piece of legislation, which is still in force now and still a major problem for us, which is about getting Council Rent's up to the level of private sector rent's and forcing Council's to do that. Erm and it, it was us, I mean not only do we, I mean we develop her a a response, that means, we, we work with Councillor's we work with Senior Officer's in other departments and we look at the policy angles, like for example with, with that piece of legislation, when, when we first realised what the impact for that legislation was, it was gonna mean that we were ten million pound short in our housing money basically, that was, that was what it looked like on the surface and you think oh my god how you gonna make up for that short fall, that would mean an eleven pound a week rise in rent, that's what it worked out as, so, well we can't do that, how, and then you have to look at the legislation and you say what are the loop holes here, and erm, and it involves contacting outside organisations and getting there opinion and finding out what other Council's are doing and responding to things like this, and we did come up with a way, of, of reducing that deficit, but that's the kind of thing we do. At the same time we were organising meeting's to tell local people about it and to get there views and to make it clear again that we were, you know, we were in a position where we were being forced to do something by this legislation that we didn't want to do and we wanted just, the alternative was if we had set a rent rise, which have been dramatically higher, I mean the four pounds, twenty five rent rise that we eventually had to agree to was higher than what the Council wanted to put the rent's up by, you would think well the Council put the rent's up by four pounds, twenty five, erm, and you know, that, that's why the Council does that sort of thing but it's us that gets involved in that kind of work, producing information and developing responses and then the secon d major area is what I've just labelled a strategic policy development, and that mainly erm put policies that are like a rise within the Council rather than things that come from outside, like for example, because were the kind of Council we, we are, there was a debate amongst officer's and member's to develop an anti poll strategy and two hundred and eight thousand pounds was found to be linked to that strategy and erm, as that's enabled various initiative's to get under, under schemes, crashes for children in the town, stuff like that, er and also, erm to provide an overall policy frame work for other Council department's. Like when there considering how there gonna spend there money every year, they should have reference to this policy cos general Council policy like, how can I spend my money to redistribute resor resources, so that we can provide more for people who are in need, so it isn't just about projects, it's about a policy and we develop those kind of things, we've already talked about the Unit Policy and we developed that. Other things we get involved in as a Central Policy Unit. Things like, it was us who set up the Benefits Unit in the Town Centre, you know, we, it was considered that you know we as a neutral policy team are in without departmental buyers rather than political buyers, that's a joke, erm, [LAUGHTER] would be the best people to erm, er set up this unit, we don't have any less interest, the benefit's, the benefit's felt within the housing department with with the introduction of Poll Tax and the Poll Tax benefit, it wasn't clear where that could go, so we were the people who had to sort that out. One of the other the other things that we will erm be taking responsibility for is, is something called the Front Line Review which I want to come back too, because it's something that will interest you as a group erm, but that's basically again a Council learn initiative, where the Council's want to look at over the next month all of the front line services we provide, the, the services that you come into contact with on a day to day erm level and look at, you know, are we providing a service as you want, are we providing them efficiently, how would you like to see them better provided. It's a way of as a Council taken the position that we ought to be spending your money effectively, right. It's also tied to the fact that were, we have less money than we used to because of the introduction of Poll Tax, it is tied to that cos we are constrained but, erm that's the kind of thing that we get brought into to support, erm and then another area is progressing policy initiative's in other Council departments. In other Authorities you may have whole research and policy sections in the particularly departments, like a housing research and policy section. In this Council we don't have, it's not organised like that. Department's tend, eh, the actual service department are very much what I would call practitioner lead, you've got just people there doing there job and there've been doing there job for years, and that's you know, there not, the very rare thing today, erm, thinking of policy sense about the way in which they could change that service, you just get on and do what they've always been doing. Erm, so, the, given any organisation should always be looking at what it's been, it's doing to see whether, what it's doing, erm, it should continue to do, you know, whether the, whether the services is a defunct or whatever, or whether we could provide it in a, erm in the most up to date way, the most progressive way. We as a as a policy unit get involved in that kind of work as well, so working with departments, looking at new initiative's and trying to work with them. Now that isn't easy actually, because you know, the practitioner's think they know best and they actually quite resent, you know, the young Policy Officer's coming in and saying let's do it this way, shall we? Coming in at all, so that's, that isn't easy, but it, eh were it works it's really good I mean for example we, we d o up the Poll Tax enforcement policy, erm and again it was where the Cou I mean if the Council had followed the legislation on Poll Tax collection, it's you know, erm and it didn't want to do that, and so again well, it's, well it's related to this legislation bit, but we looked at, we looked at how we could get round that legal procedure and we looked at developing a more sensitive policy and we had to do that with other departments. A more practical initiative which would currently involve them is a self build housing scheme, it's at a very early stage, but basically erm, were working with the housing department, economic development unit and er work, the work's department, there's a, there's a corporate project team, and were, were looking erm, we've got to identify, positively identify a site for it, but we're looking at bringing in European Social Fund, Funding and erm housing association money to get a self built housing scheme for young people, you know, where they would be trained in manual skills to build there own house and they live there, erm and er, so that's, that's quite an exciting scheme. Erm... the other thing we, we do is what I would call servicing community groups supported by the Council and I'll put servicing in inverted comma's, comma's here. Erm, these kind of group, kind of groups I'm talking about here are the West Essex Self Action Campaign the resident's groups, the homes and jobs campaign, school governors for 'em. A, it's part of, it's linked to the fact that erm, the Council's quite erm concerned to get, you know, community groups active in the town and responding to things as well as just the Council, Council Officer's, but it's also linked to the fact that we as Council Officer's can't be overtly political, it's far to say, and you know, what happens is groups get set up to resist things like last year when the hospital lost the fifty million pounds, there's enough people on it now to say that it's you people here that formed the bulk of thos e groups. Erm, that, there are sufficient people active in the town, they will come together and challenge those things. Now erm, the Council can support such groups, it can, it can, got formally decided the body to support such groups and with the West Essex Health Action Campaign all political parties on this Council decided to support it, because they were sad that we lost the fifty million.
[speaker002:] Legally, legally.
[speaker001:] Erm, and eh and we, if the the Council also can provide supports for those groups and it's us that will provide the support and we leave it as general as that. But erm, you know, that's, that is er a major part of our work. Erm the other area which is, it is just production and examination of, of information through leaflets, public meetings and conferences. And that goes back to what I said earlier, in that we just don't see ourselves working internally, in meetings, in negotiations and report binding, with erm, with other officer's, we see ourselves as a vocal point to get in information out, to, to people, erm and working with people, erm, and that's erm again a major part of the work we do and just as an example of something that we provide, this is erm, this is the hidden divide, the bulletin of Harlow's Anti Poverty Strategy Group, this is the latest edition, and it's just an update on erm impact of eh living in Britain in nineteen ninety one today, the people who are on low income, but we, we've produced that quarterly, erm, but there, we produce loads of leaflets, were always producing leaflets, and basically if there's a major piece of legislation there be, there be something worth getting use on it. Erm, and then I just thought I'd finally conclude a bright, cos I think it, it's like how I see myself at work, erm with showing you where our work comes from erm and basically you've got all these arrows coming in and er sometimes you do have a sense of feeling quite bombarded with requests for work, but the main, I mean the main formal source of our work is the local government sub committee, which is erm, like Mary was referring to earlier, every department or unit in our in the Council have to formally report and get it's work through by a Council committee, our committee is the local government sub committee and it formally sets our work programme once a year, and I our priorities, it also comes up with other things it would like us to do by the way, during the course of the year, so erm, that includes Mary as well.. Erm, and then we get requests for things from the leader of the Council directly, that he wants us to respond to, the chair of that committee to erm will, will do the same thing, we'll get requests from other departments relating to our work, some of which might of been you, we erm, the Council has a group for the finance advisory group, which is a small group of Councillor's and officer's that meet to discuss not in, in public session, key erm financial and other major policy erm issues that, and the reason why that group was set up, erm was that it felt like with the introduction of Poll Tax and the Local Government Housing and Finance Tax, that it needed outside the committee cycle to erm review the impact of those legislation to look at it's finances more closely and what, and we as a policy team report into that group and get request from work from that group as well. That group does have wider representation than just Councillor's, it has er Labour party representation on that group. We also get requests from work from the organisational review working party, which is a working party that's erm basically looking to progress to the D M D, Decentralization of Microtization initiative. We do get work from individuals, I said we have an open policy and people come through with problems that they've got because they know us and some we take up, we try and be helpful and, and take up individual problems and then we have a two way relationship with community groups and last and not, not, not least, we, we live across the corridor from the General Manager and he's always flying in and giving us work as well. So erm, that who we are, what we do and how we get our work and I hope that been interesting for you.
[speaker003:] Thank you.
[speaker002:] Very nice. [clapping]. Any questions?
[speaker001:] Well, well actually, there's one thing I've missed out which I said I'd come back to, and that was the front line review that I referred to. Because when I was thinking about trying to talking to you today, I thought although we've worked quite a lot with people along this group, you might be sitting here and thinking well you don't seem to be doing any specific work for and with old people erm, well I think your quite independent and can work out your right that, but one of the things this front line review erm it erm, it's considering Council front line services under various headings, one of which is Retired Services that the Council provide as a group, now the leader of the Council wants to erm [cough], get public views on how we look at these services, so, and that's, that's individuals and groups and one of the things that you might like to think about and I'm that we as a local government unit who are servicing this review can help you with, is to consider how you might want to fee in for that review, erm and, and consider this, that the re-services for retired people, that the Council provides that you use and basically whether you use that, or service, we want to hear that, the Council would need to know that cos were gonna be making decisions about whether or not they should continue in this front line review erm, and erm, you know, or what things you would, what, what are your questions on about those services, what other things you would like to see provided, things like that and I thing this group could quite easily make a collective representation, a collective submission to that process then you could do it as individual's as well, so that, that exercise it, it should be over by the eleventh of October it starts on the sixth of September.
[speaker002:] Is that the one that's being run upstairs by Jean, by the way?
[speaker001:] No, no.
[speaker002:] It's a different one is it? Oh
[speaker001:] This ones by, er actually you are the first members of the public to know about it.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] In fact you know about it ahead of most Council staff I would say. I mean the communication strategy for this whole thing has got to be sorted out and, you know, we want, the leader wants staff involvement, public involvement in it erm, and erm, but I'm just telling you advance on what's gonna be told.
[speaker002:] Fair enough.
[speaker001:] But, erm, that this is gonna be happening and you ought to have an input.
[speaker002:] I'm sure we will.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] If that's not, positive Chris! [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] There was someone before in Alex 's day, that's a very long time ago.
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[speaker003:] Could easily do it again..
[speaker002:] It is a long time ago.
[speaker003:] Can I say something about, dear I don't know if your aware the against it now you see how much work they do you know keep it.
[speaker001:] Well thank you.
[speaker002:] There's, there's another thing I, another thing I'd like to mention which Chris hasn't mentioned this afternoon is, that is that a lot of the pamphlets that you are handed out here, generate from 's office, copying and things like that, all very helpful, which would cost us a bomb outside, and we get them free, so you know, they, they do help the pensioner a great deal that's why I said when she came in that's a lady I admire very much and respect, cos she's very good to pensioners.
[speaker003:] You won't get one done through a government.. I don't know. Were talking about appreciate pensioners concerned about there pets.
[speaker001:] Well I.
[speaker003:] Now I understand that place making a small in the is that right?
[speaker001:] I don't know..
[speaker003:] It's just that next year it's under threat because of the cut backs.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker003:] Now I give this quite a strong point to bring up..
[speaker001:] Right, okay. What we've just decided Chris actually. Yep. The R S P C A more or less in this borough is erm.
[speaker002:] Defunct.
[speaker001:] Used to put animals to sleep, they don't do much in the way of treatment, what we want to do from this is press for erm a P D S A grant. Right. Which used to function at the Stow. Yeah. Very successfully and we would, were gonna petition for that. Right, right, right, that sounds good. Well I'm actually gonna be the person servicing this return Policy Officer, this retired services group so, if you want to make it, either a person to raise you want to get out.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Laughing.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] Right, I'll contact you.. I know.
[speaker002:] Yes, Archie.
[speaker003:] Archie.
[speaker009:] I, I could summize the sporting facilities for the pensioners.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] Forewarning.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] And I come in contact with people from other parts say erm.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] They all the Harlow, one of the best places they know..
[speaker001:] Well that's useful to know, because what important
[speaker003:] . Do need that don't you.
[speaker001:] In this retire services.. Is, you know, is actually erm getting as much information we can about the people who are using the service and erm and making sure it stays, making a case for it. Also, I mean one of the things that the Council is considering doing, I mean this interest, I know that other people from around this area come into Harlow, one of the things that the Council's thinking about is erm, is charging, or has debated, charging different rates for people who are coming in than, than those who live here.
[speaker003:] That's right. I agree.
[speaker001:] As a way of income generating. Don't know, it's dodgy that.
[speaker002:] But eh.
[speaker001:] It's a double edge. . You don't want to give people who are using the service as well. Because it also brings us in money. Er, I think that's very dodgy.
[speaker002:] One does it, one of the things that eh I don't know whether it does effect you at all Chris but eh, eh Chris, is, is the fact that eh these here foreign lavatories they've got around the town, now I'm dead against these for a number of reasons.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] For a number of reasons. The first and foremost, most people don't like using them, but secondly we've already paid for this service in our rates and taxes, you know, when we pay our rates though, we pay for these toilets to be clean and all that sort of thing don't we? And yet they're bringing in these other things that er enormous cost which nobody wants and you've still gotta pay, and if you haven't got one, if you haven't got the necessary er coin then that, that could lead to very anti social behaviour. [LAUGHTER]. Right, so I mean this is.. Listen, this is. This is something that's been on my mind for a very long time and I mean, I, I, I think it's about time we started getting rid of these things and updating our own toilets you know. I mean.
[speaker003:] Pauline said they're are a success.
[speaker002:] Ah? Who said there a success?
[speaker001:] Pauline.
[speaker005:] Perhaps I'll be unpopular here, but in fact until you think of a way preventing vandals from vandalising the toilets, as you know, I don't think there is, nobody has come up with any other way of doing it. And that, I mean I, I can't give you a but they are extremely well used, you can tell by the that's been.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[speaker002:] Eh, that's different from what I've heard.
[speaker005:] Erm, I mean it is a terrible problem..
[speaker002:] It's different to what I've heard, very few I've met have.
[speaker005:] That, that's been the only other way of doing it..
[speaker001:] perhaps you have to progress to have a toilet pass.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER]. No, but I mean, what I would say. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] Er when we come down.
[speaker002:] What, what, what I would say is this, there always, there always talking about anti social behaviour around the town and as I say if people haven't got the necessary coin, it could lead to anti social behaviour, it's as simple as that. You know, I mean, surely that makes sense doesn't it? Or am I talking like an idiot?
[speaker003:] No, you're right.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] The toilet system could be better.
[speaker002:] Yeah, much better.
[speaker003:] All round.
[speaker002:] Yeah, and if, if, if it's bad lies well then that's the case for the for the, the body that deals with the police. We have a body that deals with police here and they should be doing there duties, no good the local police tell us there's only eight members a shift, cos we don't believe it, they get on the Council and so they someone say what about all these other places that are being robbed of a night time.. You know, and all old people's things, like when they, when we old pensioners were being er, er knocked about on the erm highways and byways a couple of years back and I went to see the, the local police officer, what did he turn round and say, there all domestic affairs, they didn't want to know, yet the press will print, print these every week.
[speaker001:] here.
[speaker002:] Stop, right, listen..
[speaker001:] Though, it's just that, one of the things that Caroline actually, er working on with Warwick University is a way of re-looking at public services and how there funded right, it's basically to help David to make the case with Margaret Margaret for more money with the local Government, but erm I mean the sort of things we've been getting into is like when you considering paying for public services, should you, should you pay like in advance like through the National Insurance System or like, like I mean the French Health Service for example, people pay it for ambulances when they use them, though they pay on a differential rate, but I mean it's an issue to debate, it's right, and I've just been thinking about lavatory while you've been speaking.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And the thing is that when of the, I haven't seen anywhere any kind of poll system, you know, I think it's a, I've always thought it outrageous as a women actually, that women have had to pay for toilets, and erm, I mean if we, you know, if we, we might, I mean, I, I would be in favour of a system where, you know, you, say a local Council issues a pass, which you pay for, have differential rates, but it's like people paying up front for that toilet service.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And you have some way of, of, of getting in, erm and you have some way of controlling access therefore into toilets, now I don't know whether that would totally it, overcome the vandal system, but I mean if your saying a pass wouldn't be any different than a coin you could devise an entrance, so that it wasn't, you know, so that what you would be doing is stopping having like the total open access all the time, you know, erm.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] But, you know, it's just a thought.
[speaker002:] It could be with modern electronics couldn't it?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] You know, add, add a, a say a piece of plastic, like the bar system they had on, on, you know like a coded system.
[speaker003:] Same as the banks, for money.
[speaker002:] Exactly, although that, that, don't mention that for goodness sake, you'll, you'll, you'll be in dire trouble there [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] But I think.
[speaker003:] Money out the same time.
[speaker001:] I think we shouldn't be having this kind of debate about public services.
[speaker002:] No, but, you, you see what I'm trying to get at eh Chris, we've already paid once for this service and then, then asking us to pay again, which annoys me, you've already paid for the system and there asking you to pay again.
[speaker003:] That's all part of the Poll Tax.
[speaker001:] That's what I said Norman, women have been doing it for a lot longer.
[speaker003:] Your for ya.
[speaker002:] Your paying twice for the same service..
[speaker001:] Right, has anybody got any.
[speaker002:] Any further questions?
[speaker001:] Any more comments about the local government unit?
[speaker002:] Chris is in the hot seat. Huh.
[speaker003:] On that question of the young people who were.
[speaker002:] This lady here.
[speaker003:] I, I only want to mention about the swimming pool and swimming for pensioners and there ever such a lot of people go swimming.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] I wanted to point out to you, you know, we don't want it to happen.
[speaker001:] Right, okay.
[speaker002:] Anything else?
[speaker003:] On that question. I've just moved into one of the new housing complexes.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Absolutely wonderful.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker003:] It is really nice, they need more.
[speaker002:] Right, Alex.
[speaker003:] I wanna say on that question we were talking about earlier on about the young people and some facilities for them.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] There was quite an appealing letter in er one of the local papers this week for a young person on this particular subject. Er, I saw between the sixteen to twenty year olds, there's nowhere in the town where they can go and meet very easily, other than the pubs, this causes trouble.
[speaker001:] You see one of the things I've done, I've, I've done, er I feel we could do quite easily, is make our play barns more accessible to young people, you know. But I mean this is something that we.
[speaker002:] Ah, they're costly.
[speaker001:] Though we've got to pursue with leisure, well I think as part of this front line review we've got to, you know, throw everything up in the air.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] And say, you know.

[speaker001:] Well one of the things we did do immediately after the er youth consultation is that we erm, we erected a paid for a skate board ramp at erm one of the youth centres in, in Harlow, so you know, we we creating that facility, but erm, what, you, so you your question was more directed at providing more of those kind of facilities.
[speaker002:] Well, providing, mainly because you see a lot of the youngsters with their skate boards, but they're skating through the town, all over the place.
[speaker001:] I mean, a lot, I can say with on the youths, I think were doing, were, were, were walking with young people at the local levels of various places in the town you know, we've got, we haven't got as many resources as we want yet, but were still trying to do that, well I actually feel, on youth we're doing quite a good job you know, expensive job you know, that we are, and, and all that concerns you raise, were certainly aware of. The problem is solving all the problems, providing all the facilities in, in the situation where it's diminishing resources, I mean we wouldn't be actually be carrying out this review, in the way that were gonna do it, if we didn't have the problem with the money we've got, you know.
[speaker003:] Right, time marches on we've got five minutes before this meeting closes, so if you've got another question, I'll take one more question for Chris and then she's off the hook. Any more questions?
[speaker002:] I could tell you something about the, if you've got the
[speaker003:] Gordon bennett.
[speaker002:] Norman, that erm, one of the at the moment.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Was going to have a facility for young people, if you remember, it was suggested that the restaurant was used for young people.
[speaker001:] With still not loosing site of the idea of having a cafe, bar, coffee for people, one of the things that were, that gonna look through and explore explore actually is er setting up some kind of coffee bar facilities at Kingsmoor, the play barn, there next to them.
[speaker002:] Erm, but that's really.
[speaker001:] I know it's one area.. One would think, one of the things that young people decide was that they wanted facilities in their area.
[speaker002:] In their area. Area you see. That's is what I.
[speaker003:] Could I come in here Chris?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] At the, at the last search, at the last highway committee, although were not having, having, having the, the full service at the envisage in the first instance, a lot is going to be done, is going to be some more erm shelters directed there and one or two other facilities and somebody has even suggested that we put a toilet there which is a very good idea. [LAUGHTER]. Which is a very good idea, but, what they, what the er, what the Council have done is. Can I, can I madam please, if I may. What is, what is happening at the moment is although they can't afford the money for the full, for the full treatment they are making an allocation of money to improve matters round, round that area, which will be er, cos I, I told them that some of the pensioners were,w walking round by the bankment, it's pouring of rain, which is perfectly true and that er the engineer should go round and see for himself and plus the fact how many of these people ever travel by bus, or do they always go by car, no, and also I brought up about bus shelters and all those sort of things, but any way, there will be some improvements for the bus station in the future.
[speaker001:] Right, am I let off the hook now?
[speaker003:] Yeah, your off the hook. Thank you very much, thank you Chris. [clapping]. I'm sure the, I'm sure they'll all go away very when you, before you came.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] They.
[speaker003:] Thanks a lot.
[speaker001:] Well now, now you know that when I disappear with a placard sign, I don't just appear with a placard, we are doing things behind the scenes.
[speaker003:] That's right, thanks a lot Chris. Okay.
[speaker004:] That's great, thanks very much.
[speaker003:] Right, were now on other reports. Any body got any thing else to report, with got a few minutes left? Yes, no, any other business, you can all go, your all off the hook. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] They'll start arguing now.
[speaker005:] Come on a Wednesday, but I think I'll come on Thursday and Friday.
[speaker003:] I'll shall be there Friday, Pauline, I, I can't make it Thursday.
[speaker005:] Are there any people who can come Thursday?
[speaker002:] Thursday?.
[speaker003:] Anybody Thursday?
[speaker002:] At the market. At the market, yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] You've got one or two there, look, that come along.. You alright in there.. Don't go over doing it. What about you, could you? No good.

[speaker001:] That will be Val.
[speaker002:] Er I think they have changed contractors.
[speaker003:] Again?
[speaker002:] Again. But anyway whether that's true or not the... this was a s s seems to be as a result of criticism about them not turning up and this sort of thing. Erm
[speaker001:] Hi.
[speaker004:] Sorry I'm late
[speaker002:] So I had a long chat with the, with the cleansing officer and the main point
[speaker004:] I know, I know.
[speaker001:] Liz, do you want a chair?
[speaker002:] ... the main point that I made to him was that after such a superb beginning where, where they actually state how much rubbish we produce, there's absolutely no mention... even though there's space at the bottom... there's no mention of recycling at all. And he said well it's a different, you know different department.
[speaker003:] Mm. I know yes
[speaker002:] And this was, this, that, that wouldn't have entered into... that brief but my argument was that, you know everybody would be much happier if there was less rubbish to put in the landfill sites... in the first place. Now that was about two weeks ago and I've been sitting on it meaning to, to write to the press and say how disgusting it was. Which I have just done today. Aft, no Yes, half way through I spoke to to the environ environment officer
[speaker004:] Mm
[speaker002:] who was much more... switched on. He's a new environment officer, he's only been there for a month or something. And he says that... erm. He sort of agreed with me that it was a waste of an opportunity. Erm but he did say that he's actually writing a leaflet which they can run to seven or eight pages. A detailed one about recycling.
[speaker003:] anybody will read so eight pages.
[speaker002:] Well I don't know. I just don't know. But I mean he was very interested and when I said that we'd actually done a recycling directory and that I was thinking redoing it. Erm. He was very interested and he would like to meet us and I said that if he's actually doing a directory
[speaker004:] all this all this about. I thought Rob is doing a sort of recycling what do you call it composium
[speaker002:] Rob has just done a green audit for the district council. Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes. But we haven't had the opportunity to read it.
[speaker004:] I mean he knows that we have a recycling d. I was in touch with them. I sent them the recycling. Why do they pretend not to know?... I mean they should be fully a aware of of of our
[speaker002:] Val well this is a new guy.
[speaker001:] is that Mr?
[speaker002:] Mr?
[speaker001:] . The recycling officer. Is that, is the one, I wrote to
[speaker002:] Hold on.
[speaker001:] There.
[speaker002:] ?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Is that the one you spoke to?
[speaker002:] Tom.
[speaker001:] Yeah. That's him. Only he said that they were gonna get an initiative through the schools on er
[speaker003:] Is is
[speaker004:] he's the one
[speaker002:] Anyway that's that's my letter. Draft letter which I have not got, it's very very rough, for the press. Sorry I've only got four.
[speaker003:] That's alright.
[speaker001:] Actually some friends of mine were quite confused about what, why they shouldn't be able to throw their cooking oil away in their bin. Because they said they'd always done it and they had nowhere else to put it. Somebody else said oh you should throw it down the sink but I didn't think you were supposed to do that either.
[speaker003:] What?
[speaker001:] Cooking oil.
[speaker004:] Cooking oil?
[speaker001:] Yeah. If you have got one of those deep... fat fryers you, you have quite a bit to throw away.
[speaker003:] Well don't put it in water.
[speaker001:] No, I don't. I don't.
[speaker003:] You put it in the bin.
[speaker001:] No, they, they've said in there you mustn't.
[speaker004:] Where?... No not cooking oil. Er pet, car oil.
[speaker002:] Car oil.
[speaker004:] That's a totally different story.... I'm sure
[speaker002:] But I mean... the bottom bit obviously we've got to talk about whether we actually do want
[speaker004:] bifocals today new.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] But this guy seems to be well worth nurturing.
[speaker001:] Yes.... Here you are. It says here oh that's waste oil cooking fat and other liquids.... I know it says fat collection but I
[speaker004:] Well that only should only be because erm [phone rings] the bin's going to be soiled. In in in... in the end terribly smelly that's the reason. I mean why there shouldn't be cooking oil in in in landfill. I mean
[speaker005:] Dad Dad's not in
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker004:] I can only think that... I mean it sticks to the sides of the bin at the bottom
[speaker002:] Well if it's if it was very hot could it could it melt the plastic?
[speaker004:] It could even melt the plastic yes.
[speaker002:] Or could it ignite? Yeah.
[speaker004:] No I I definitely foodstuffs out of the water. I mean... into the bin first and then wash the dishes. To keep the water clean.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] stuff you put in water.
[speaker002:] Yeah.... Sorry?
[speaker001:] Was it printed on new paper? It doesn't say does it?
[speaker002:] Well it doesn't say, no
[speaker001:] I think, I think they put recycled if it was don't you?
[speaker002:] Well exactly that's
[speaker004:] You seen that story, what is it, one paper er if you get the... letter of the week you can take part in the draw and get a flight to... from Stanstead to Dusseldorf. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Wh what paper's this then?
[speaker004:] I I got it last night.
[speaker003:] There was the most horrible letter in England or Britain joining the Common Market.
[speaker001:] I'll get you one of those bags.
[speaker003:] No oh you did tell me about it
[speaker001:] Yeah I did tell you.
[speaker004:] Do you, well do you then know why... doesn't, isn't Rob in touch with them any more?
[speaker002:] Oh yeah, very much so. I spoke to Trish, Rob's away at the moment
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] but I spoke to Trish... tonight. And erm...
[speaker004:] But... I mean he's also in the sub committee isn't he?... There was this working committee wasn't it and then the sub committee to the working committee on environmental matters.
[speaker002:] No, yeah but I mean that leaflet very likely wouldn't have... you know I mean I think this this leaflet
[speaker004:] No no but but that this Mr
[speaker002:] Mr, yeah but I mean
[speaker004:] didn't know
[speaker002:] Okay he should, he should have tapped us as a resource certainly.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] But I mean... you know I I'm certainly gonna follow this up.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And I think we ought to get him over to one of our meetings. And... and he said he would.
[speaker004:] And I think if we could make it get one of the Uttlesford... chaps to the same meeting
[speaker003:] marvellous thing they did.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Well what he did say was don't... you know... don't go over the top in criticizing that because
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] you know he he says that there's a lot of things which are happening. He's got all sorts of schemes... a lot of schemes in the pipeline.
[speaker001:] I suppose he doesn't want to be seen to be just reacting to your letter he's obviously started doing these things off his own bat anyway hasn't he?
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I mean and and he he feels that er... pressure groups like ourselves are very positive because it gives him a bit of... weight... when he's arguing for things.
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker004:] Well they can't push it from the top
[speaker002:] But I mean... on a sort of wider thing... erm...
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] You know one of the things that we could do... is to do another directory.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] I think because I think I think
[speaker002:] But
[speaker004:] it's a real shame... we're so out of date.
[speaker002:] Mhm... but I I you know we we're... can we actually do it? I mean we would need... fifty people
[speaker004:] No I would not distribute it
[speaker002:] to deliver
[speaker004:] er from door to door. I would erm put it out in the library, put it out in in surgeries. Put it out in public places and that's it because... I mean... the number of people erm they went to these directories like hot cross buns. I mean every week I supplied them with a new stack of... everybody wanted them.
[speaker002:] What, the recycling directory?
[speaker004:] Yeah
[speaker001:] They come through the doorstep, through the doors though.
[speaker002:] Through the door they they just throw them away. They didn't read them. I said well don't you live in Stortford, didn't you have it delivered? No. And I'm sure they'll pick them up if they see them in the
[speaker001:] If they printed
[speaker004:] print them up and they do it on their own... will.
[speaker001:] Couldn't we do it with him?
[speaker002:] With him? Well yeah pro
[speaker001:] I mean they could couldn't they sponsor us to do it or something?
[speaker002:] Well yeah I I've I've whether he... well I mean if, if he's gonna do this seven page thing then... I you know I... you can look at it two ways. Either we can influence and help that to be... to be good or or... you know if that's a failure then... see whether they can help us to produce one for the town.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I mean I'd much rather they do it... if we can influence him enough.
[speaker003:] They've got the right information.
[speaker004:] Well the thing if we did it with our as they keep saying there's some, there's so much in the pipeline. I mean it might take us another... two week two months before we get it out. Three months.
[speaker001:] Well
[speaker002:] I would say six months.
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker004:] No I would just think of something really straightforward.
[speaker001:] They do want stuff on local levels I mean if he's East Herts he's got a huge area, hasn't he?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] It it might be a help to him to have little local groups that... helped him out with these things.
[speaker004:] But I mean if we print something and then suddenly they instal all these new bottle banks which we didn't know about. Then they are not mentioned
[speaker001:] Well
[speaker004:] in our recycling directory and we can do the next one
[speaker001:] He should know about them shouldn't he?
[speaker004:] Well we must... that's why, certainly have to, before
[speaker003:] Could you drag him along... to a meeting?
[speaker001:] Yeah well that's what... they said we could do that. I'll write that down.... Erm, is that okay for that I just have something that I read in New Scientist does everybody take it?...
[speaker005:] No
[speaker001:] Oh well I'll give you one to look at... it's just a little article about
[speaker003:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] recycling in in Egypt. And I just liked reading it so much that I thought you'd like to read it too. Don't have to read it now cos it's quite long. It's it's... it's really hot.... Cos they they reuse absolutely everything. And they make they're living out of it.
[speaker004:] In East German they are now drowning in rubbish because... they used to have a perfect recycling scheme everything was collected and recycled cos they just didn't have the materials. Now they are flooded with the West European goods... their recycling isn't worth any more. On the other hand they haven't got the landfills and the whole scheme that the west has developed and they... I mean it's a health... hazard meanwhile. One of the major problems they have to face.
[speaker003:] Far East lots of guys sort of collecting cardboard boxes and that's all they did they flatten down cardboard boxes and then another one did newspapers and whole newspapers and
[speaker001:] The whole town is composed of a
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] it's like a big. I just thought it was... interesting. Erm... I did write er as was suggested asking about... erm facilities for cyclists in the potential shopping centre development in Bishop's Stortford. And they are, they are interested in cyclists but from what I could make out reading this... they're not really going to help us a great deal. If you want to pass it round and read it. It's it's they're gonna use the green wedges that are already there and the existing footpaths which are already cycled along. What, what good is that to me?... It's just... in Stortford it's not that easy for a cyclist is it?
[speaker005:] No
[speaker001:] And they've got all the places say don't lean your bicycle here and you're not allowed to take it into Jackson...
[speaker003:] One girl nearly got knocked off going up Newtown Road.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] It's really quite narrow as you're going up there.
[speaker001:] What about the all the cars all parked round corners everywhere like up at Havers.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker001:] They could do something about that. Have you every cycled up there?... Not round Havers,wh they park where those, those sort of shops are... they they park all around the corners so that you have to go out round them. And of course you meet something coming the other way wrong side of the road.
[speaker002:] Oh yeah. What annoys me is that everybody parks on the pavement as well.
[speaker005:] Mm....
[speaker001:] Seem to disobey all laws there are about parking.... It does, it doesn't really help us does it?... Do you wanna pass... these around as well if anyone wants to look. All the replies... got eleven or so replies that I've had for that questionnaire.... There are a few people... willing to help aren't.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] But I haven't gone really as I hoped cos I'd envisaged having the membership list with sort of names of who'll make cakes, who'll help on the stall and then know who to phone
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] when I wanted some help or... who to invite to meetings but... because I haven't got a reply from everyone... or most people, it can't work does it?
[speaker003:] Is that all the replies you got?
[speaker001:] sent more than fifty out. I did sixty and Caroline copied even more.... She's a good girl. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Did Georgina reply?
[speaker001:] Erm did actually, yes.
[speaker006:] Yeah, cos when I phoned she said she's still quite interested.
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah I thought she was
[speaker006:] but she said if the baby.
[speaker001:] And... I've got a local group summer questionnaire which I couldn't really fill in. [LAUGHTER]. Isn't it awful! I thought I'm just as bad as you know everybody else really. Cos I wasn't sure of some of the answers.... And that it it's saying which of the following days of action has the group participated in. I mean cos we haven't really sort of really done a proper day of action have we? We've done little bits and pieces. I know we did the returnable bottles. . I mean cos and we did that stall on peat but we didn't really take part in the peat day of action did we?.... What do you think?...
[speaker006:] Fiona and I did the electricity
[speaker003:] What at the supermarket.
[speaker001:] Is that the global warming and electricity privatization?... That one? Was it?
[speaker006:] It was erm efficiency... of
[speaker001:] Oh fuel and efficiency. Right that one then. Oh we didn't, we didn't do the ozone layer one did we?
[speaker004:] Did you do a stall... on that ozone layer? We did do something. With the
[speaker006:] Oh we did, yes.
[speaker004:] with the, with er snow remember? That was Christmas last year wasn't it?
[speaker001:] Oh yes that was
[speaker004:] That was ozone. Yes it was we did
[speaker001:] Oh so I'll put down for that then. Oh it looks quite good [LAUGHTER]. Right. Have you written to your MP about fuel efficiency?
[speaker006:] Yes I did.
[speaker001:] We did. I know erm... I thought I wrote to the electricity board in, I wrote to somebody... about erm how er things should be labelled about how efficient they are when using electricity.
[speaker004:] You took part in the er electricity efficiency didn't you?
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah but didn't, we didn't write to our MPs though. I thought we were supposed to write to somewhere else... was it... the department of the environment or... now what would it be, energy?... We wrote, wrote to them cos I've got a reply to that letter somewhere with a great wad of information about various fridges and
[speaker006:] Yeah, yeah
[speaker001:] and things.
[speaker006:] Yeah
[speaker001:] So I can't really say we've written to the MP can we? We haven't found out about company car fleets have we?
[speaker006:] We tried. Well I tried and then I was let down by the group.
[speaker001:] I don't remember anything about that one
[speaker004:] We arranged it... two days or three days and each was cancelled
[speaker001:] March ninety one?. In March this year?
[speaker004:] It was this year. Last year.
[speaker001:] Last year. I didn't think we'd done anything about that this year.
[speaker004:] But that was last year.
[speaker001:] Yeah. But we haven't done a march... ninety one then.... Scanned the local press for power station applications or authorizations H M I P.... Written to Michael Heseltine about acid rain? May ninety one.... Written to your MP to ask him her to press for strict E C standards for C O two emissions from vehicles May ninety one.
[speaker003:] when was that?
[speaker004:] Wasn't that on the talk? Do you remember this talk we had that was last year. Er
[speaker003:] writing a letter to Chris Patten about the protocol.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] So that was, that was early this year.
[speaker001:] Yeah written something.
[speaker006:] That to do with the ozone layer.
[speaker001:] I don't know. It it's mostly sort of things about energy. Isn't it? Questionnaire.
[speaker003:] That's definitely to do with the C F C's
[speaker001:] Yeah well this is C O two in in cars, private cars.
[speaker003:] Yeah things to do with er emissions and...
[speaker001:] written that? In May ninety one?
[speaker003:] Yeah sounds about right.
[speaker001:] Ask local car dealer to write to car manufacturers to press for the introduction of more fuel efficient cars? May ninety one.
[speaker006:] No.
[speaker001:] Lobbied your local authority on peat use?... Not really did we?... Erm... joined the newsprint campaign?... no. Written up details of recycling campaigning experience for and sent it to. No. [LAUGHTER] Why me? []. Complained to your MP about the national road traffic forecast. No.... Looked out for threats to S S I's. Have we got them? S S I's. Sites of special scientific interest.
[speaker002:] Have we got any in...?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker001:] No I didn't think we had.
[speaker002:] No, I don't think so. Sorry?
[speaker004:] Do you own your
[speaker002:] No!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Do you?
[speaker002:] We we have acquired a large chunk of the the yes.
[speaker004:] So you should, you should nominate that as a site of the interest shouldn't you?
[speaker002:] Erm... it's valuable but not that valuable. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] But it says here, written written to Linda Chalker about the I T P O. Now I, I rang, I sent a postcard... which was ready written. Do you think that counts?... Promoted the. Well we did try.
[speaker003:] Yeah, put that we did do that.
[speaker001:] Didn't get very far though did we? Actually that seems to have fizzled out. Haven't heard anything about that for a while. Erm... written to the government in U K bank about the bank propose new foreign policy.
[speaker006:] I think we might have done that.
[speaker001:] I think we might have done that. I know that I've written to British gas.... And I think I wrote world bank. That was, thing is that was quite a long time ago. I'm sure it wasn't this year. This is February ninety one.... [phone rings]... it's alright but you get to the bottom of those stairs and sometimes. Er... check locally for claims of environmentally or sustainable tropical hardwood it's not really, I mean I do look when I go... to all these D I Y places to see what they've got. Haven't really
[speaker004:] local wood guides?
[speaker001:] Well Rob's got two
[speaker004:] cos I'm just deciding on a new window frame. And all the firms are claiming that they only get their hardwood from government... erm replanting programmes.... And one got a... stamp and a seal on that. But whether that is acknowledged by our Friends of the Earth I don't know because I mean they have so many stamps and seals on
[speaker006:] They won't give you names now will they? The Friends of the Earth. They won't give you names of companies any more.
[speaker004:] No but if this stamp, this acknowledgement.
[speaker001:] Oh it's like a little is it?
[speaker004:] good government scheme or not. Whether that is known... by Friends of the Earth as a good scheme or not.
[speaker001:] I think... there's a day of action coming up on this sort of D I Y stuff. so maybe we'll get some more information about that. I'm gonna try and get the... book back from Rob.
[speaker003:] Martin's an architect and... and it actually probably would be... you know it might be a good thing to actually sort of provoke a question with architects because they do specify these things and they're the ones who actually say... you know right we'll specify hardwood. It's one of the decisions that are actually made by them in terms of what they use so... erm that could be something that is
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker003:] round to architects just sort of provoking the question cos they, a lot of them have never thought about it
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker003:] and er... you know if they did erm I mean Martin asked about the, he asked about the good wood guide you know and I told them where they can get it but that they can have it in their office and put it in their library. You know so that, that's quite a good idea.
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker004:] But that's so quickly out of date again you see the good wood... cos I mean they they have new government schemes, schemes every year don't they?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] And new other schemes. And
[speaker001:] What, at least it will enable you to know what the tropical species are because some of them have got quite weird and wonderful names and most people don't know what some of them are.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker001:] I know mahogany is citello. I noticed they had some Philippine mahogany doors in... Do It All
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] on Saturday and yet, that you have to be careful because... they they have that I've forgotten what her name was on on Wogan saying next time you go into a D I Y store and you see a mahogany toilet seat... you know don't boy buy it think of the forest. Well if you go into a D I Y store you'll find it's a mahogany stain... I don't know if they really make mahogany. It would be very expensive
[speaker006:] Yes you'd probably gauge by the price I would think.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Plastic
[speaker003:] plastic.
[speaker001:] plastic one. Erm... oh
[speaker003:] Yes actually this cycle thing. Cycle parking is actually... I wish they'd actually pay a bit more places to actually put your bike and you didn't have to sort of tie it up to some lamppost or something
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] There's hardly anything
[speaker001:] I mean they could give you a decent stand to put it in cos I hate those ones at Sainsbury's. Cos if you've got anything heavy in the bag, the bike falls over.
[speaker003:] The ones at the library as well.
[speaker001:] Er and they ought to have a little shelter over it to stop your saddle getting wet... if it rains [LAUGHTER]. I've got, I mean I've got my spots where I park it, I, it at Woolworth's and outside the post office because it keeps it dry. And out of the way.
[speaker006:] All the roads into town are just awful. I mean the Dunmow Road, Hockerill
[speaker001:] Oh yeah.
[speaker006:] You know really scary. You know you get asphyxiated with petrol fumes and then you get the danger of being... thrown off your bike.
[speaker003:] cycling
[speaker001:] Yeah they squeeze you off the road if you go up that hill to Hockerill lights. I
[speaker004:] You must to cat. Just walk... slowly in the middle of the road. So that there's no way they can take overtake on the right or on the left. That's the only way. Our cat, and I've really watched her... makes a point of going and walking slowly in the road. And I think that is exactly what we have to do as cyclists. Not squeeze to the side because they might not see you there. right
[speaker001:] Well you sh you're supposed to ride a fair way out from the gutter, never in the gutter so they can see you round the bends.
[speaker003:] Yeah but
[speaker001:] And they often hoot you if you're doing it but that's the place
[speaker004:] That is their fault if they hoot.
[speaker001:] Erm especially going up that hill at Hockerill lights. They overtake you... and then they slow right down so that you have to go oohooh and stop. You can't cycle that slowly up a hill can you?
[speaker006:] They come in too quickly on, once they've passed you
[speaker001:] They don't they're in like that aren't they straight in front of you.
[speaker006:] frightens me. cycle underneath a car today.
[speaker001:] Oh dear. Michael 's got helmet.
[speaker003:] That's a good idea.
[speaker001:] Yes idiot wearing it though.... If everybody looks like him!
[speaker006:] Oh well.
[speaker001:] I mean it looks alright if you've got all the gear on... you know cycling shorts and top and everything
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] make them like swimming hats with lots of little flowers all over them
[speaker001:] Yeah. But if you do get one you have to be careful you get one that's done to the proper standard because some don't work apparently....
[speaker003:] absolutely nothing.
[speaker001:] Well that's what I thought it just seemed to say they were gonna have sort of cycle ways going through the green wedges along where I cycle already.
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And that's no help at all is it.... we can't complain.
[speaker003:] That should do quite well in trying to get the traffic away from the centre in Stortford anyway.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] They were talking pedestrianizing
[speaker001:] I think that's been on, on the cards for a long time hasn't it?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Pedestrianizing and they've never done it.... Sorry! [LAUGHTER]... Erm... Wh have we done anything about the environmental charter? Because I started doing it a long time ago
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah Bob did that didn't he?
[speaker006:] It vaguely Yeah and we presented it and then it fizzled. The group fizzled out because we presented the charter. And that was the aim of
[speaker001:] It asks here have they adopted it?
[speaker006:] Erm
[speaker001:] wouldn't or we aim to still try.
[speaker006:] Well.... I I think, I've a funny feeling that did adopt it but quite how much that means I don't understand....
[speaker001:] Well it's awful, having to do this... questionnaire we, we've done. All these workshops that have been going on that we haven't been to....
[speaker003:] Well they just kind of recognized the principles don't they but they don't ensure that they'll actually put them into practise. That's what adopting means it's not actually committing....
[speaker006:] Yes I thought they had, yes.
[speaker001:] How about these questions. Does the group have a constitution?...
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker001:] Does the group have an office?
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker001:] We've got our plastic box!
[speaker002:] Plastic?
[speaker001:] I know I know everybody will be disappointed but I couldn't get... cardboard ones, stick it all in.... We bought the storage boxes anyway to keep all the.... No but you can't really I mean that's what supposed to have it like an actual proper office. You can't have all in cardboard boxes. It's erm... not easy to organize.... You can't and keep them open at the same time.... What is the most common problem you've experienced in your dealings with Street? It's phoning them up and the person I want to talk to isn't there! I think. Have you had any, anybody else... phone them up or written to them?... No?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker006:] I think they're quite abrupt and rude whenever I've phoned them up.
[speaker001:] Are they?
[speaker006:] They're not terribly friendly.
[speaker001:] Oh they're usually okay I, I mean what they don't know [LAUGHTER]. I mean I just find it annoying cos you get through... to somebody who then passes you on to somebody else and then they'll talk to you and say well the person you want to talk to isn't here at the moment so you've had all this phone call and then you've got to ring again.... And you have to do it in office hours as well.... What has been your proudest moment this year?
[speaker004:] Oh that was Rob. When he was able er to enter the sub committee.
[speaker001:] Oh yes.
[speaker004:] He was really proud of that and he, he made a point of that being
[speaker001:] I'll write that down.
[speaker004:] for him... years of struggle... to get any influence to finally find himself...
[speaker001:] Oh good one.
[speaker002:] What sort of committee is it then?
[speaker004:] Hearing aid! Well I think one does speak a bit louder in public meetings, it's just. And I I can only do this work I'm sorry. Sorry I didn't hear
[speaker002:] Oh... I I didn't hear either. Turn that thing off.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I was asking what sub committee it was.
[speaker004:] Er the environmental. They had a working committee didn't they and a sub
[speaker001:] It's East Herts isn't it? I think.... Was it East Herts?
[speaker004:] East Herts, yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah East Herts.
[speaker002:] Environmental sub committee?
[speaker001:] Yeah.... He sits on it.
[speaker004:] Well he had this environment mental officer, they they in inaugurated him... then at this meeting meeting when... erm the thing you handed over
[speaker001:] Charter.
[speaker006:] The environment charter. Why's it a sub committee? What happened to the proper committee as well.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] reports then back to the proper actual coun the er
[speaker006:] The work's... committee
[speaker001:] district council meeting.
[speaker006:] Well I know at district... council there was two environmental groups, was it the officers group and the... members group.
[speaker001:] Oh. I wonder which group
[speaker006:] Herts county council.... Cos when I was on the Hertfordshire Environmental of the group which has folded
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] I've got all this money in the Abbey National and there's no, no group any more, I think I'll have to keep
[speaker001:] Keep quiet.
[speaker006:] I'll have to send it off to. But anyway it transpired that there were two groups sort of working towards the same end and nobody could work out what sort of erm role each played and it was terrible. Because you knew that they both had to agree before anything was done.
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker006:] I suppose that was one way of nothing being done. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yes, they didn't communicate.
[speaker006:] The officers group and the members group that was right.
[speaker001:] Right. Anyway. Onwards. Erm... there's going to be a sort of event at the Rhodes Centre. Erm for one world week... on the twenty fourth of October and we've been asked to do a stall there. Which I said yes to without asking anybody so I hope that's alright.
[speaker006:] What date is it?
[speaker001:] October the twenty fourth. That's a Thursday.
[speaker002:] We're doing a Traidcraft stall?
[speaker001:] Oh yes
[speaker002:] You what?
[speaker001:] Well... he wanted to know who the Traidcraft person...
[speaker002:] Oh really.
[speaker001:] And he said, he said he tried to phone you up and I said oh don't worry.... Cos any you always get the answerphone.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] could leave a message.
[speaker003:] is it?
[speaker001:] It's at the Rhodes Centre Thursday October the twenty fourth.
[speaker004:] Well if we do a stall I would... really like to have at least a leaflet on new recycling.
[speaker001:] Yeah okay.
[speaker004:] ... So that we have, I mean nothing of design or anything just... short information because I think it's so
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] out of date.
[speaker001:] Yeah.... I know, and he said you could sell things as well now.... I don't know what you think, I just wondered did we ought to order anything from... Friends of the Earth catalogue like those sort of things... to sell. Cos that, I mean they're always going to be useful I use them myself and I expect you all
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] The question is the quantity
[speaker002:] Er... yeah
[speaker001:] I've no idea.
[speaker002:] Well I mean I I know what Barbara feels about this. She feels that... erm... at the, the level that we are working at it is really coun be counter productive to hold stock. Because however hard you try stock deteriorates.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Erm but I you know I feel that that very often we don't sell stock
[speaker001:] Well couldn't we just have a few things
[speaker002:] and I feel that if we did have stock then... then we would erm... sell it. So I mean that that's two ways of looking at it. Certainly if... we've got some stuff in a box
[speaker001:] Well I mean we needn't buy the expensive things like sweatshirts
[speaker004:] Shall I try at erm Cambridge? I mean it's October.
[speaker001:] Yeah but they, will they, they won't sell you on at a discount will they?... Cos if we all
[speaker004:] But I mean I I just know that that Harlow tried stock keeping and selling, they gave up. I know that er in Hertford they were quite desperate. All came up with the same idea and they wanted to do it. And in the end they came to Barbara's conclusions so that its a an expensive thing.
[speaker001:] But I mean if we only had like the... writing paper and the envelopes and re-use labels, small items of stationery
[speaker006:] the stickers and I mean
[speaker002:] they still do... yeah.
[speaker001:] But I mean I I expect, I mean even we had some left over e eventually you could sell them to our own members because they'd all want to use it
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and it's cheaper than ordering it off the catalogue.
[speaker006:] That's a good idea about Cambridge isn't it? You could borrow there stock, is that what you're thinking and then take back what we didn't sell.
[speaker003:] That's what
[speaker004:] I mean I've never talked to them so I I don't know yet
[speaker001:] Well if they would let us borrow it, that's a different matter to buying it from then because we then wouldn't make any money on it.
[speaker004:] Well I don't, I have never heard of a local group that makes money out of this... selling.
[speaker001:] Well you you buy it all at thirty three or twenty five percent discount so you can then sell it at a bit more.
[speaker004:] But then you have then you have the stuff that doesn't sell and deteriorates and you still have to have paid for it so
[speaker002:] I think it's possible to make a bit of money but at at at the rate... you know I feel we're all the time putting the cart before the horse. Erm... you know if if we are going to try to keep going as a viable group then yes one of the things we should consider I mean I I don't I've come here sort of thinking... oh is this it, is this the crisis meeting or
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] is it... you know erm... I mean I feel so so passionately that that we should keep going but
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I also feel just that I am... able to contribute next to nothing in terms of time so and I think w we're almost all in that situation. Erm... you know we sort of seem to limp from one meeting to another without... really committing ourselves to anything much.... And you know if we were able to commit ourselves to two public, two meetings, three meetings of some sort in a year... where we're actually gonna do something and present some sort of front... Par part of presenting some sort of front is to try to sell a few bits of pieces if we're prepared to accept that we're going to lose money.
[speaker001:] Yeah. I mean if we, we're preaching you should use recycled products we, if we had a few to sell at least
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.
[speaker001:] I mean you you're be selling your Traidcraft stuff I mean
[speaker002:] Which
[speaker001:] why why does Barbara believe it's okay to sell that but not
[speaker002:] No, well we're, we're in exactly the same problem with Traidcraft. You know... we we used to sell thousand of pounds worth a year and now we're down to... couple of thousand a year and we're s, we are losing money on that.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] No we're not actually losing money but I mean... with Traidcraft we are getting to the low point where we put borrowed stock
[speaker001:] Well that's the recession isn't it?
[speaker002:] Or...
[speaker001:] Well, what I thought was with this one world week thing at least people that, who go might be more receptive... to what we have to say to show and sell.
[speaker002:] Yes we've done really well with with Traidcraft
[speaker001:] because that is, that's the whole reason for the the the concert and they're gonna have this concert in there as well and people will be buying tickets to go to.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] And I don't know an awful lot about it and there's going to be all these stalls. Where they're coming obviously because they believe in that sort of thing so
[speaker002:] Two or three years ago one world week was a full week of all sorts of different activities which were all very well attended. It's sort of dwindled very rapidly
[speaker001:] Has it.
[speaker002:] down to, I d I don't even know what happened last year.
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker004:] We just had a stall didn't we?
[speaker002:] But it
[speaker004:] Or was that last year what seven or eight of us wasn't it?
[speaker002:] At St Michael's?
[speaker004:] The church.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] That was last year or was that two years ago?
[speaker002:] Er...
[speaker006:] There was something at St Michael's but I didn't know it was the one world week.
[speaker002:] Yeah I have never been involved in a... one world week event at St Michael's.
[speaker004:] I thought there was one there. You certainly were there. In the church
[speaker003:] No I don't I don't think...
[speaker002:] Yeah. Anyway I mean hopefully this this will be sort of you know if it's well publicized it it will be well attended because of the past.
[speaker001:] I think we might as well get in a few things and anyway I want some envelope re-use labels. I've run out completely. There you are so many packets already.
[speaker002:] Well if you don't want Traidcraft's re-use labels I don't care!
[speaker001:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] I didn't know you did them! [] Well erm
[speaker002:] Doesn't matter does it
[speaker001:] well apart from this leaflet on recycling facilities, what else shall we have?... On the stall.
[speaker002:] Well who's gonna do the leaflet?
[speaker001:] I will.
[speaker003:] I think we ought to sort that out
[speaker004:] Well that will be, I personally think that's the only thing we can do. And we should just sort of say what is necessary to find out and everybody gets a few telephone numbers or telephone calls... check out addresses... find out about new ones, get in contact with the district council erm what is in the pipeline. Find out about Uttlesford possibly why there's is running and whether that is going to br breakdown. Erm and if we then find money for printing it I would approach Barclays Bank, banks, local banks... and would it do it very modestly the same local the same style er and only hand it out to... places where people are likely to pick it up. And not bother about. I mean charity shops erm... library, hairdressers, surgeries... Boardman as I know
[speaker002:] I think that's a very sensible idea actually rather than er trying to do the whole town.
[speaker004:] Because that was er you know... I mean it got the group together
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker004:] I thought because everybody had the same experience. I liked the experience because I had never done it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] [whispering] what a waste of time. [] The number of people I've talked to that... I definitely knew had got and never knew they had got it.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah I mean but on the other hand the there's probably quite a few that... did read it. I mean I know when we moved house... I had folder and one of each had got in it the recycling directory
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] which is... quite a nice surprise!... I mean had they had they sold to someone outside Bishop's Stortford
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] then they could
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] [tape change]
[speaker001:] Erm
[speaker004:] I think we have to have something if we have a stall....
[speaker002:] We lost all the erm... cartoons... original cartoons. Yeah.
[speaker004:] Oh that's a shame.... Well I could photocopy that couldn't you.
[speaker002:] Yeah. The detail
[speaker001:] difficult to see what it is. But erm
[speaker004:] Oh that's a real shame. Otherwise I will just do it in a different colour, a different
[speaker002:] I mean then
[speaker004:] then then reshape the inside....
[speaker001:] Yeah....
[speaker004:] Er something before I I always forget everything.... The German Friends of the Earth's people told me never to do the washing on Monday mornings.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] I mean that's something to put there as well I think. Because... it's a peak time for electricity and the Electricity Board... er produces according to peak demands.
[speaker002:] That's got nothing to do with recycling has it?
[speaker004:] No. I know but
[speaker001:] No. But you do you think honestly though that that really does still hold true because if everyone ha mostly having automatics now you just wash as you go you don't have a washing day or is it specially Monday they
[speaker004:] Like I've got just automatically I wanted to do washing this morning.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Really? I don't. I just put it, when it gets too bad you know if haven't got any clothes to
[speaker006:] It's an interesting though. I didn't know that they produced according to peak
[speaker004:] Yeah, I think it's important to know
[speaker006:] It's very important to know, yes.
[speaker004:] erm whatever. Don't do it Monday mornings.
[speaker006:] I usually do mine at midnight when I get home!
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] A lot of people do it overnight
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] but it's not really a good idea because if something goes wrong with your machine... you're not there to deal with it. I mean I've had mine flood and I've had its thermostat go and it boiled everything. I mean that would have been a disaster I mean it's only because I was upstairs and I thought oh I can smell boiling. You know it was like when you boil up hankies I thought what a! [LAUGHTER]. There was dye came out of everything it was awful. And another time it was all pouring all over the floor
[speaker004:] The other thing I mean to be healthy... it's more important... to dry things and keep them dry for a while than to boil them. Bacteria survive heat for a short time.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] But they don't a for the percentage of bacteria that survives drought... is is minimal. So you don't need to boil... logically. Er if you just keep your hankies... iron them, keep them dry. Then they are, then they are sterile.
[speaker003:] be bothered.
[speaker002:] Anyway, back to the point. He said pointedly.
[speaker004:] Well leaflet.
[speaker001:] stall. We've got to get back to the stall.
[speaker002:] Yeah er the recycling leaflet. Who's gonna do it? It's not gonna be done if we don't get somebody to actually front you know
[speaker006:] well
[speaker002:] take it on
[speaker003:] The thing is that I... I can do... revamp it on computer. Because it w... you can scan
[speaker002:] What ma manually?
[speaker003:] No you just stick it on a photocopier
[speaker002:] I see I wa before you do that I'll get in touch with the guy who drew it and if he... if he has got... an original copy he might be able to erm to er...
[speaker003:] What, what you can do is you can then get basically you get the computer to type that out... type that out.
[speaker002:] Ah.
[speaker003:] And then you just do a run, you don't have to go on to print it at all you just print it off. That's one option Then photocopy the rest of it.... I've got a laser printer yeah so I mean that's what I use for my business. I've got a Mackintosh and a laser printer. So I mean
[speaker001:] I've got some recycled paper but but
[speaker002:] Well Traidcraft's got loads to sell.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Not doing very well are you
[speaker002:] No!
[speaker006:] because I have this... erm dilemma. Whether to just photocopy off a very good... original
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker006:] or do we print the whole lot. And we came to the conclusion it was cheaper to print
[speaker003:] Oh
[speaker006:] than photocopy.
[speaker001:] What it's a bit slow isn't it?
[speaker003:] Yeah it depends, well you can get get it to run through copies but... the problem is that the cartridges for these printers they, they cost about fifty pounds.
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] They're not cheap. So if I can do one run and then photocopy it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] It a is actually a lot better because you can get them usually get them down to about... five p a copy.
[speaker001:] Well won't you lose, lose definition on the drawing though with a laser printer?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker001:] No?
[speaker003:] No it's even better
[speaker001:] Oh that's alright. Okay, no it's, I'm just going by the one at school and it, because it's all made up of little dots you
[speaker003:] No, this is a laser printer. This does it absolutely... it's not a dot printer it's it is a laser printer.
[speaker001:] Oh, well he keeps calling it his laser printer! seen it in action we don't see that well.
[speaker002:] So you, you said you could do it for five p a copy?
[speaker003:] Well I r, I r, I reckon I reckon you can down to that, yeah.
[speaker002:] That's printing both sides.
[speaker003:] Yeah. double sided printer and I I'll try and get that verified but
[speaker004:] I think we could sell it I think we could sell it for
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] ten p or twenty p.
[speaker002:] Oh that that would be a different ball game, selling it in places wouldn't it?
[speaker001:] Oh yeah. Ho how many
[speaker002:] That's our, I mean, you know you can go round in newsagents or doctor's surgery and dump them. But to actually say right can you s can you collect the money for us!
[speaker004:] Well one could put a... box next to it.
[speaker002:] Well in some places, yeah. Yeah but I mean, mm. a copy's a lot.
[speaker001:] It is, yeah. Well although
[speaker002:] I mean it I'm not suggesting that isn't cheap but erm... to produce at five p a copy
[speaker003:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] thousand it's gonna cost what's it gonna cost?
[speaker003:] Er.
[speaker002:] What's five thousands? Five thousands. Fifty pounds.
[speaker003:] Mm. Mm. I mean I'm, I'm, I'm only going on the fact that I I tend to do everything on the cheap so I tend to get... if I can find somebody who does photocopying I can do it then we'll do it. For me to produce that'll cost me... basically my time and my... my you know I, say my laser copies' paid for by my business erm
[speaker004:] copies.
[speaker003:] So I mean if I, if I produced for instance si five or six masters... and then people can go and do copies here and there that's actually not a bad way of doing it.
[speaker001:] And that'll be, I've got about a ream of, well it's only about a ream paper.
[speaker004:] Just pr producing new copies as you need them rather than produce five thousand and I think we we have sort of hundreds to throw away in the end. But I it to to er... recycling. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Well I'll get in touch with this... East Herts guy to get all his information.
[speaker006:] Good.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] But erm...
[speaker006:] You know, we need to find out where to take
[speaker002:] somebody needs to... collect somebody needs to be a contact for getting all the information to... by a certain date.
[speaker001:] Well you can... get it through me, yeah.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker004:] Tesco do they actually do... now?
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker004:] Has anybody been there?
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker001:] Well they collect aluminium cans.
[speaker006:] Oh do they?
[speaker004:] Yeah, that's what I was told.
[speaker001:] I acted on what everyone had told me I then asked my friend who had a contact in Tesco's about it she said well there is one. It's just inside the doors, where you don't see it. walk in like that and you're looking at all the things in the shop not where It's not in the recycling centre.
[speaker006:] Why don't they put it in the recycling centre?
[speaker001:] I think it's cos, it looks like it's made out of cardboard.
[speaker004:] It's, it's probably run by the scouts. They're in charge of it like
[speaker006:] Yeah, cos there's one at the swimming pool isn't there?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker007:] Does anybody know anything about, there's this little note in about erm recycling paper, all sorts of paper magazines, cardboard er on the first Monday of the month. Does anybody know anything about that?
[speaker002:] Is this for Boots?
[speaker004:] every first Monday of the mo month is the Birchanger scout
[speaker001:] scout
[speaker004:] and he gave me that information repeatedly and he's terribly involved. It, it's fantastic.
[speaker001:] Right, yeah.
[speaker004:] I'm always worried that his enthusiasm is stretched to the limit
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] No, no I mean the number of pe. I've just passed my A levels I've got loads of papers going what can I do. Well I said, ring Birchanger scouts!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] And as far as I know he always.... I mean the address is on there anyway.
[speaker001:] Yeah, oh right. Is it? Oh.... er
[speaker002:] quite... pertinent actually if we are actually going to do one.
[speaker006:] What?
[speaker002:] To ask people... sorry in my, in the letter
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to the press, ask... people to er... submit any information.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Oh what you mean you're gonna put at the bottom... of the of, the same letter or
[speaker002:] Well, yes. Yeah.
[speaker004:] just write down all the information we've got now so there is... can recycling at the swimming pool and at Tesco privately run.... Swimming pool
[speaker001:] Erm... swimming pool
[speaker004:] who's going to get the information who runs that? Who?
[speaker001:] Mm?
[speaker004:] Well I can do that I suppose.
[speaker001:] Well who runs what?
[speaker006:] The swimming pool
[speaker004:] Because I know the scouts do the Tesco one and whenever they are put in these cardboard boxes they have to be sorted so somebody must sort them.
[speaker001:] Oh they're not, they're not asking sorting, oh I see.
[speaker004:] Erm... so there must be somebody responsible and I think if, if we write swimming pool and people take their cans there
[speaker006:] Yes we'd have to check.
[speaker004:] erm I should first check.
[speaker002:] Check with them, yeah quite.
[speaker004:] So I I do, you do Tesco. I'll do the swimming pool.
[speaker001:] I, I, I... would check who actually... is responsible for that
[speaker004:] . But of course all paper now is
[speaker006:] All paper?
[speaker004:] All paper.
[speaker006:] What about this... chap then? It's in the library th with his number.
[speaker004:] Well, you ring him but if he, if he gets upset or, or
[speaker001:] Oh I see.
[speaker004:] it's it's strange you can give that as an address. Any Uttlesford... town of some size has got a comprehensive recycling centre now that takes any paper
[speaker002:] Do you have to sort it? Do you have to take it sorted?
[speaker004:] No. No.
[speaker006:] It's just a big skip? And it says
[speaker003:] at Stanstead
[speaker002:] Do they then sort it?
[speaker003:] the car park
[speaker004:] No, they it's... the council collects it and [cough] in Uttlesford, that's why I said we should get at the same time... an Uttlesford councillor because I would
[speaker002:] Yes, yeah
[speaker004:] like to know a, whether their new scheme is only temporary, is about to break down.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Or whether they actually get the disposals cost incorporated into this skip collecting cost. Because the... money they can get for this... mixed paper must be a pittance.
[speaker001:] Mm. Almost hardly worth their while but
[speaker004:] If you look at the tonnage kept out of the landfill...
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] it might work.
[speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean it it
[speaker006:] So where's this place in Stanstead then, do you know?
[speaker004:] Erm if you go... in, along Cambridge Road there's the turning to the right isn't there the first when you come up the hill.
[speaker002:] At the monument,th th whatsit hill.
[speaker006:] Chapel Hill.
[speaker002:] Chapel Hill.
[speaker001:] Chapel Hill.
[speaker006:] You go down there do you?
[speaker002:] And it's by the library isn't it?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker007:] go down it's it's first left once you've turned right at
[speaker002:] You know where the library is?
[speaker001:] Opposite, opposite there isn't it?
[speaker006:] Opposite the fire station?
[speaker001:] Near the white house... round the back of the white house.
[speaker007:] Where the health centre is. Yes, round the back of those few little shops in London Road.
[speaker004:] And you can take anything. You can take erm any drink can unsorted. You can take glass and you can take pa papers.... And in... Saffron Waldren
[speaker001:] suddenly thought you still got to have a little holdall membership forms in it, haven't you? With all that peat and stuff.
[speaker004:] they even take er pills.
[speaker002:] With all that
[speaker006:] Do they? Oh that's interesting to know
[speaker001:] Remember w we did that peat they had a box that had a national membership forms in. We could have that on the stall couldn't we?
[speaker002:] Oh yes,w I mean we have got various leaflets produce... still which is in reasonable condition.
[speaker001:] I've got... Yeah. Yeah we could take that... you know membership and our own membership forms as well.
[speaker006:] What pub is that then? Did you say a pub?
[speaker004:] A pub, yeah, in front of the pub er... in. Just before the
[speaker006:] Oh the one in.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Before you go to St Michael's school, the pub. What is it called?
[speaker006:] Oh yeah, it's The Oak isn't it?
[speaker001:] The Royal Oak? Yeah cos that's next door but one to me so, yeah.
[speaker004:] Oh that's where you are.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Well anyway that is a new item on the recycling directory
[speaker002:] Right
[speaker001:] Oh they've got one near those shops in... Humana?
[speaker004:] Could you... find out what happens to the?
[speaker001:] Yeah I know they come er there's a big lorry comes and collects them.
[speaker004:] Yeah. But whether they are sent to the third world or... torn into rags or
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Well you've got the, I mean... industry uses rags.... wiping up oil and things like that.
[speaker003:] I might c call. If I see them collecting I'll ask.
[speaker002:] And then if you're collating
[speaker004:] you have to ring.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Erm find out from
[speaker001:] Oh well I'll get the the charity shops... what they want
[speaker004:] Havers shops
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] address
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[speaker002:] Charity shops.
[speaker004:] Ah... er the other item that we must mention is any extra plastic bags
[speaker006:] Yeah, I'll ask about plastic bags.
[speaker004:] are extremely welcome in any charity shop.
[speaker001:] Now, what about engine oil? Because oh actually we've got some in our garage now sitting there and waiting to go somewhere.
[speaker002:] The council takes it.
[speaker001:] The council takes it?
[speaker002:] Yes I'm almost certain. I mean a visit to the council to find out exactly what they do take would be
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker001:] But can you take it back to garages as well?
[speaker002:] No. No.
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker002:] Halfords... Halfords in Harlow is one that that that we found out took it.... But I... ce ce I'm almost certain the council takes it.
[speaker001:] Yeah I remember big bins wasn't sort of sure what else
[speaker004:] They also take batteries. I know that. Car batteries.
[speaker002:] Do they?
[speaker004:] Car batteries. The car batteries
[speaker001:] That's the council?
[speaker004:] to get money at at
[speaker002:] Right. But what about erm little batteries?
[speaker004:] I I'm collecting those.
[speaker002:] Yeah. You are collecting them?
[speaker001:] What happens to radio batteries?
[speaker002:] Are still doing it?
[speaker004:] Yeah.... And they bring them up to me
[speaker002:] Ah
[speaker004:] I'm just waiting for a day of action on. What do English... er what do the English do with batteries and then dump them!
[speaker002:] In those letters Ursula th there's
[speaker004:] Yeah?
[speaker002:] a letter which says they they have stopped doing it.
[speaker003:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] That Photostad have stopped doing it.
[speaker004:] Oh.
[speaker003:] About the second, quite early on isn't it?
[speaker001:] Oh yeah I was
[speaker002:] I was gonna say it's about the last one!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Think you were reading them upside down!
[speaker004:] Well they only, they only er... took the batteries over to me... before we left on holiday.... So they must still be doing them and that was two... huge boxes.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] Er
[speaker004:] I know they are not very happy
[speaker002:] Well that needs a check that needs needs another check I I would guess.
[speaker004:] Yeah. And I quite honestly I don't...
[speaker001:] I I'm going to say about back to this erm sump oil. My brother-in-law said he read in the paper that erm... over a year sort of... the amount of oil tipped on our land and down drains which shouldn't be there is almost like equivalent to the disaster at Exxon Valdez.
[speaker002:] I heard that.
[speaker001:] Th erm... the amount of oil that people just tip on the ground, or down the drains or whatever
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] over a year is equivalent to the disaster of the Exxon Valdez.... So really people ought to be trained to take their engine oil out
[speaker003:] There's this, there's this er out of sight out of mind principal
[speaker004:] You are fined you are heavily fined in Germany and for... decades already.... You were not allowed to wash your car on a normal street... because oil would automatically be flushed into into the guttering, into the
[speaker001:] They must be going absolutely mad about East Germany mustn't they? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Well it's just so incredible that this oil has never been... I mean nobody focused on it did they?
[speaker001:] No. People just don't think. They just tip it oh tip it down the drain.
[speaker006:] Same with petrol stations I mean... the way they... spill the petrol.
[speaker007:] I know! There used to be safety catch mechanism
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] but there isn't now is there it just comes splashing out.
[speaker004:] Well really I mean with quite a few you really have to watch out which is
[speaker001:] they had a row at erm petrol station when that happened to her. And they said it was our car. and, and it went, cos it was quite a bit more worth petrol that went all over the place. And she refused to pay. And they me up about it.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] I, I sort of denied all knowledge. I didn't know it had happened! I think they were being most unreasonable. We at the time the attendant said it was alright. She didn't have to pay for it.
[speaker004:] it could easily I mean will be shorter I think.
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker004:] fewer localities now. This will be shorter. I think we can easily put erm pits for daily life or how to be environmental. And then
[speaker001:] Oh a few tips. Oh
[speaker002:] With respect I really think it ought to be recycling and nothing else.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker006:] Well I just find these, I mean we had quite a few now
[speaker001:] Cos recycling sort of comes into the tips for daily life as well though doesn't it. It's part of it. Like protecting... people don't just save bottles they save their glass jars
[speaker006:] seem to be patronizing people when really you just want to give information.
[speaker001:] as well. People don't always think of.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Re-using things, re-using things is almost the same... as recycling isn't it?
[speaker002:] Re-use? Yes. Yeah! I suppose it's I mean
[speaker001:] Well it is really isn't it?
[speaker002:] re-using is better than recycling....
[speaker004:] Yeah....
[speaker001:] Erm.
[speaker004:] So. Erm I take
[speaker001:] So it
[speaker002:] Reduce or re-use, recycling?
[speaker004:] Has anybody got a con
[speaker006:] punchlines are much better than sort of er.... Because people'll read those.
[speaker001:] Well you can write save money across the top then
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Well I, I wrote actually that article for the the Herald and Post that has appeared in Harlow but not here. A... whole load of tips... like that.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] Now every week I open Herald and Post and think oh it's gonna be in there, it's gonna be in there but it never is. It's only appeared in Harlow and she told me it would get in the Bishop's Stortford one but it hasn't so far. It's a bit annoying really.
[speaker004:] Who does all the schools?... As to recycling. They must be checked.
[speaker006:] What about asking Caroline?
[speaker001:] School.
[speaker004:] Well I mean somebody who knows the teachers or
[speaker001:] Yes. That's gonna be a difficult one cos they don't always want
[speaker002:] I will... I'll do the schools. Yeah.
[speaker001:] erm the general public walking into their
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker007:] We ought to split the schools because there's quite a lot of them.
[speaker002:] I'll do the primary you do the secondary.
[speaker007:] I'll do the secondary.
[speaker002:] What about that?
[speaker007:] Okay....
[speaker001:] Primary.
[speaker007:] Well I think Boy's High... were active in between weren't they? Whether they er... still are.
[speaker004:] How about St Mary? I I found that erm erm littered all over the place!
[speaker001:] St Mary is wall! The P E
[speaker004:] Do they still do it?
[speaker001:] the P E teacher is supposedly collecting aluminium cans and... we've been through various daft schemes of stopping the children from throwing the cans everywhere because we've got this coke machine.... And we even had one where they paid a ten p deposit... on a can so they paid forty p instead of thirty or whatever. And I got hardly any cans back. Or they did was b buy them from the school canteen where they were still thirty!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And the coke machine wasn't used.
[speaker004:] Well why not er encourage the canteen to charge forty
[speaker001:] They didn't... but then they had
[speaker004:] as well?
[speaker001:] Well, they won't because they they they have to make money in order to survive. The more money they make the better for them. They have to run it as a business now. For profit I'm afraid. Er oh I did have one Polish lad who's now left who used to go round looking for all the cans and he'd... then collect the ten p's!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] scheme folded. Through lack of support....
[speaker007:] So what else is mentioned here?...
[speaker004:] I think that still holds. And I can check, I will go and. And car batteries is the same. Other batteries I'll check. Pills er... you check
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] . Furniture erm... yeah I think that's. Is there a second hand furniture shop now in Bishop's Stortford?... There is one isn't there?
[speaker003:] Is there one down by the Causeway?
[speaker001:] Yes there is.
[speaker004:] Who is going to check that?
[speaker003:] Well I can check it. Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah? Whether they take
[speaker003:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker004:] I mean whether they want any.
[speaker003:] Right. Okay. Could I just borrow your pen and I'll write that down. Thanks.
[speaker006:] Are Red Cross still taking furniture in Stortford?
[speaker004:] Now where is Red Cross?
[speaker006:] Erm... Well I think the furniture you have to take down to Ware... when I last phoned. There's a number in the er... when I was... Church Street so that's a few years now so it needs to be checked.
[speaker004:] Would you do that?
[speaker003:] So it's whether they take furniture?... Okay.
[speaker004:] Newspapers I think that is normally isn't it?
[speaker003:] Do you think people... are
[speaker006:] folded What's that shop in the Causeway near the sunbed erm it it's a second hand furniture in there isn't it?
[speaker003:] Is it?
[speaker007:] But h I mean... are people in the habit of wanting to get rid of furniture? I mean... I mean if it, if it's really grotty I mean
[speaker006:] Well you can get I mean, according to the leaflet you can just phone up and get the council to collect.
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker004:] Glass, we haven't got any bottle banks. And that's where we need to... contact... what is in the pipeline
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] bottle bank somewhere.
[speaker002:] Yeah there's, there's one at Sainsbury's now isn't there which is... new since that.
[speaker006:] Yeah there is Thorley Sainsbury's.
[speaker002:] Thorley Sainsbury's.
[speaker003:] They have one now?
[speaker002:] They do. Yes.
[speaker003:] Oh! They suddenly found the room.
[speaker006:] Yes actually.
[speaker002:] Well... in a parking block.
[speaker001:] Er... would anyone like coffee?
[speaker002:] No... thank you.
[speaker001:] one, two.... Now what was it, I mean... or would you prefer anything else?
[speaker005:] some tea?
[speaker001:] Tea? I'll I'll go and check.
[speaker007:] One thing I... struck me this week there's a new regulation as regard punctures on tyres because I had this completely flat tyre and a whole new set of tyres and I said to him well can't you mend it, can't you put an inner tube in like I I've done before cos there was a nail in it you see.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] And I said just get the nail out and re repair the inner tube he said no it's the there's a new regulation this year that if the outer case of the you know the tyre has
[speaker001:] tea.
[speaker007:] they're not allowed to repair it because safety regulations because... the whole expanse and then supposedly the actual puncture comes off. And I said well what happens to these extra tyres?
[speaker006:] Right.
[speaker007:] So he sa, I mean does anybody know anything about anything like that?
[speaker005:] No, no.
[speaker007:] Presum I mean I just lost four
[speaker004:] I know this... I just know about about a sort of friend of ours [LAUGHTER] is making money meanwhile in Germany []. He found... well... of course erm connections so he got the permission through the embassy. He's now running lorry loads of worn tyres to Russia, to the Soviet Union and makes money... loads of money because the tyres, they couldn't ha get any tyres so... the tyres he saw there were totally without profile. You know.
[speaker007:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] So the old tyres... he could erm find in Germany were a lot better. He carted them over. [LAUGHTER]. Making thousands out of it.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] Well people do that here though don't they? Se sell them to Africa and places yeah.
[speaker003:] alright if it doesn't rain actually so it wouldn't matter if they didn't have treads on er... treads on the tyres if it's dry it doesn't really matter you just go round slicks and
[speaker001:] I think could chop them up and use them to make road surfaces with.
[speaker004:] Yeah but percentages is
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker001:] At least you know they can do it!
[speaker006:] Mm that's right.
[speaker004:] Oh they can do quite a lot of it. I mean even the, the su surface out of the play... in playgrounds.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker006:] I can never quite work out why that.
[speaker001:] most roads So, so far I've got two coffees here and one tea. Anybody else for anything?
[speaker003:] I'll have a coffee please.
[speaker001:] Coffee?
[speaker003:] Black please.
[speaker001:] Black coffee.
[speaker005:] White.
[speaker001:] White.
[speaker005:] White.
[speaker002:] So we've got about six weeks in which to do this.... So how many weeks
[speaker004:] I mean there's no... excuse I [cough] all the jobs are quite quickly done aren't they?
[speaker002:] Yeah. So what... we ought to have a deadline for collect collecting the information. And then get together
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to put it together. And then decide on
[speaker004:] And how to
[speaker002:] And how to get, how to get it... to put it together.
[speaker006:] Shall we say three weeks?
[speaker002:] Three weeks... Yeah.
[speaker005:] ...
[speaker004:] probably for everybody just to do it and
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] and I don't think anybody has more... time in in four weeks time So if you say six weeks by then you...
[speaker002:] Yeah yeah.
[speaker003:] It's too near.
[speaker006:] So the thirtieth of September we'll meet here again.
[speaker002:] meeting?
[speaker004:] Can, can we meet at house?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker004:] It's more sensible for
[speaker002:] Meet where?
[speaker003:] What's your address? Forty two?
[speaker004:] Thirty two.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Is that alright? Or what?
[speaker002:] Mondays is actually not very good for me but hopefully by then
[speaker007:] I don't think I can make that either but er
[speaker003:] Val, can I have your phone number please? Right.
[speaker004:] erm... what did you say? Thirtieth?
[speaker007:] Well that's. go through.
[speaker004:] So plastics erm... ya I think that's re-using is better than... recycling.... And erm... then mention the charity shops. I mean we don't need to... imply anything there. There's no new recycling centre nearby... for plastics is there?
[speaker003:] So who mentioned this
[speaker002:] The what?
[speaker003:] talk about recycling mention that. I just remember it from the.
[speaker007:] Now Bejam have become Iceland they haven't done the... plastic bags collection have they like the, a lot of the. They haven't got a provision for plastic bags
[speaker006:] Is that worth checking out?
[speaker007:] I know a lot of the Iceland do have a... recycling
[speaker006:] I I'll do that, if I'm doing plastic bags at charity shops I'll check
[speaker005:] plastic bag recycling
[speaker007:] What's happened to Sainsbury's one p back cos they don't actually
[speaker003:] Yes I was yes
[speaker007:] they don't actually give you one p any more.
[speaker003:] No!
[speaker007:] I think supposed to, they are supposed to.
[speaker004:] I I always make them give me three p This... in the Friend of the Earth, Germany... she stayed with us, I really would have liked you to meet her. She was fanatic! You have cat f food in tins! How dare you! [LAUGHTER] you know [].
[speaker007:] What do they
[speaker004:] from the butcher and
[speaker007:] Oh, really.
[speaker004:] Locally, no transport. Cut out transport. Only local foods and...
[speaker007:] If it's available.
[speaker003:] Yes well mm.
[speaker007:] So who, who. Are you doing the bottle bank?
[speaker002:] You doing the bottle banks?
[speaker007:] who's doing the bottle banks?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Thanks ever so much.
[speaker004:] Because er... Caroline... once wanted one in a school and we weren't allowed to have it.
[speaker002:] No I won't thank you.
[speaker007:] Well there's one at erm.... The erm wine merchant. You know erm the one down the bottom of Thorley Hill. Well they were, they were sort of... advertising er... giving you money back.. I don't know if Down in the er
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Can you find out more?... And also we do quite a few we can write at the bottom... er for more inf if you have any more information or something in small print
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] please contact and then... we can do the next few hundred
[speaker003:] The thing is you can, you can change them very easily.
[speaker004:] Ya.
[speaker007:] That means you can er pay for it easier.
[speaker004:] I wouldn't print more than three hundred for a start. So if we get further information we can always... if not we can just get printed.
[speaker003:] That's very impressive isn't it?
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That's that... council of environment. No sorry. Council's environment advisory committee.
[speaker004:] Oh that must be that must be the one... er
[speaker003:] Rob's on.
[speaker001:] Thought this was good about the, buying the R S P C A that boat oil spill....
[speaker003:] Doesn't look very steady though does it!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yeah they look like! It's ever so tiny isn't it! Yeah.
[speaker003:] coracle [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Well they've got to keep their green image, green image going haven't they?
[speaker002:] So Kath while you were coffee making we decided on er... three weeks for collecting information.
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[speaker002:] And another three weeks for production. Which will make the thirtieth of September a meeting at Portland Road. That's a Monday. Although for two of us Monday's aren't good. So I don't know whether...
[speaker004:] I would prefer another day. Three. That makes three.
[speaker003:] Monday or Tuesday is no good.
[speaker002:] You can't do Tuesday? Wednesday?
[speaker007:] Wednesday now Wednesday would be the...
[speaker002:] Second of October.
[speaker001:] Second of October. It's at your house?...
[speaker007:] Is that all, that's changed then has it Wednesday the second of October?
[speaker006:] Have we decided on Wednesday?
[speaker001:] No I think we should
[speaker007:] thing is I don't think I can but er I mean I might be able to pop in for about half an hour. Because I mean I can find out what goes on
[speaker004:] Yeah and leave, leave the stuff
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] beforehand.
[speaker007:] I'll probably phone it in actually.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] If that's okay.
[speaker001:] Er... second at what ti. Wednesday second of October. What time?
[speaker003:] Eight thirty.
[speaker005:] Eight thirty.
[speaker001:] And this is, this is about the leaflet is it?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yes.
[speaker004:] Get all the information.... Decide on how we do the thing. And erm do take it
[speaker002:] To go into details of that it's probably much more sensible to do it with just two or three people. But er... at least if we can... pull the information together that evening that'd be a start.
[speaker003:] Form a sub committee!
[speaker005:] Ooh! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] sub committee with everybody present!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Well you can always divide up.
[speaker005:] Thanks ever so much folks and I'll see you
[speaker001:] Oh you've got to go.
[speaker005:] soon. See you. Bye Katherine. See you then. Thanks Katherine.
[speaker001:] Your welcome.
[speaker005:] I'll be in touch. Bye.
[speaker002:] So what's gonna be on this stall then? Apart from the new leaflets and a few
[speaker005:] Some re re-use labels.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yeah. You're gonna buy, you're gonna buy some?
[speaker001:] I'll send off for some stuff. I'll just do it.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker005:] Those Traidcraft ones.
[speaker001:] We've got some money. Money sitting round accounts doing nothing.
[speaker002:] How much money have we got?
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker007:] Probably loads.
[speaker001:] Can't remember....
[speaker002:] I'd better let you know what we have got in stock just in case there's anything there that you're
[speaker001:] Yeah. You haven't have you?
[speaker002:] No. I I don't think so. Are you gonna get leaflets and you know... Friends of the Earth leaflets?
[speaker001:] I've got l, well they've got loads, I've got a big... wallet folder full of all the various leaflets.
[speaker002:] You have. Right.
[speaker001:] Erm...
[speaker002:] Car stickers and
[speaker003:] cakes or anything like produce or
[speaker001:] I don't know. I mean it, it's up to you. I don't know if it's that sort of a... do really.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Hundred and sixty eight pounds thirty nine pence.
[speaker002:] Oh gosh!
[speaker003:] Is that their new catalogue or is that the one, the summer one?
[speaker002:] This is spring summer.
[speaker001:] It's it's the latest one isn't it? I haven't had another one.
[speaker002:] I mean... they may be just just just about bringing one out so
[speaker007:] They're just about to bring one out aren't they? The Christmas lot will be out
[speaker003:] that one.
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker003:] August that one.
[speaker007:] the R S P B
[speaker001:] Well I I've been sent a... local
[speaker002:] Oh that was is that true?
[speaker001:] No I've got a
[speaker003:] No, it said it in there
[speaker001:] I've got a local group six pound order form autumn and winter ninety one.
[speaker003:] But I don't think they change that much. I think they just sort of it's the same thing in a different order.
[speaker001:] And it's it's got a lot of sort of stuff that's left over from
[speaker003:] Christmassy things
[speaker002:] That'll do. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm.
[speaker002:] But I mean do we want to have any... produce or anything else? I'm just looking at this stall thinking there's gonna be next to nothing on it.
[speaker004:] Mm. Yeah. I think if some cakes we need definitely.
[speaker001:] Oh. So we have to do
[speaker004:] To make it look right so
[speaker001:] Good advertising!
[speaker002:] What is the, what is the concert in fact?
[speaker001:] Well I, I honestly don't know an awful lot about it. I don't think he knows that much [plane overhead]
[speaker004:] It was low cost through the
[speaker001:] No cos it's concert. There's going
[speaker004:] Oh concert.
[speaker001:] to be a concert there.
[speaker007:] All Saints, they were going to have a concert weren't they.
[speaker001:] No. This is at the Rhodes Centre.
[speaker002:] The Rhodes Centre. The concert... at which we've got this stall.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] The Traidcraft's stall.
[speaker001:] . I mean he kept... he didn't know. He said to me on the phone he didn't know a great deal cos he was just getting it all together. And he said, today he phoned me just as I was going out and I didn't really sort of stop and talk to him very long. He just asked me what we needed and I said well a table. We don't really need anything else do we? Like power supply or [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Oh no... quite
[speaker001:] something with flashing lights on it!
[speaker004:] So what time of the day is that?
[speaker001:] It's evening. [loud crash]... seven or eight o'clock. He told me....
[speaker003:] How long does it go on for?
[speaker001:] No idea.... He said he'd phone me again you see.
[speaker002:] I think if there's a concert there'll be a rush at the beginning and there'll be a rush at the end. Possibly a rush at the, at an interval I suppose.
[speaker003:] What concert is it then? I mean
[speaker001:] Well I don't know!
[speaker003:] Sounds a funny, funny evening to me! bit of a mish-mash isn't it. I mean
[speaker001:] But he's he just
[speaker002:] The oth. The other thing we could do. Sorry.... Liz. Is... is to see whether green consumer Rob and Trish want to, to to have something.
[speaker003:] I guess that would be a.......
[speaker007:] I mean I wonder who exactly you're attracting if you've got people coming to listen to music and then
[speaker001:] Well I think something to do with the church isn't it. I think he mentioned... the church
[speaker007:] go through the church?
[speaker002:] I don't know what the one,the the there's usually a theme for every one world... week each year and I don't know what the theme is for this year.
[speaker001:] [loud noises]. Act together for tomorrow's world....
[speaker002:] Yeah!
[speaker007:] Fine!
[speaker002:] Well. Yeah. There you go!
[speaker001:] And he said we come under that heading so.
[speaker002:] Good.
[speaker001:] Right. But all he
[speaker007:] There's nothing else going on apart from this concert
[speaker001:] I don't know.... I'll ask him. I'll ask him. Erm we'd better get on to a few other things. I've got erm... Greenpeace written to me. They're having a family fun day on... what day is it. Saturday the twenty eighth of September.... That's at Much Hadham... hall, village hall. Two o'clock to five o'clock.... They want to know if we want to have a stall there?
[speaker002:] Family fun day... Much Hadham village hall?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] Do you know where that is in Much Hadham?
[speaker001:] Opposite the Bull pub isn't it?
[speaker007:] Right.
[speaker001:] Er... he wants to know... do we want to have a stall there and that's gonna cost us five pounds. If we have that.... Erm
[speaker002:] Well you could get produce... for that. And then if you... ordered now....
[speaker001:] I bet they probably be really competing with them in a way won't we cos they've got all the same sort of stuff. Won't they?
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Greenpeace... sell them... mugs and... re-use labels and... sort of things like that. I don't know what you think. Erm... and there's er...
[speaker002:] I would suggest
[speaker007:] If it's a fun day why don't we do a game or something. Why do, you know.
[speaker001:] Well it's. They're celebrating their twentieth birthday celebrations. Erm... and then th in the evening there's an event.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Which starts at eight o'clock with two live bands, cabaret, disco and bar. Tickets three pound fifty.... Does anybody want to go?...
[speaker002:] That's a good idea but it's... offer to do a game.
[speaker001:] Well they've got... what they've got on here is they've got... whale watch talk and slides.. Punch and Judy show. Magic and juggling with ka plate spinning.... Er Playbus painting competition. Raffle, refreshments, tombola... and various merchandise stalls so I suppose... that's us.
[speaker006:] Quite
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Do they do fire eating act or
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] We can contortionism or [LAUGHTER]... my legs up behind my neck....
[speaker002:] An alternative might be to just to ask whether some of our membership forms could be... put out so that
[speaker001:] Well I think they're more interested in the five pounds!
[speaker002:] Yeah alright well. Yeah. I mean to make a contribution.
[speaker001:] No to be honest because that that's what Greenpeace do isn't it? Don't you belong?
[speaker003:] Yeah start the Harlow one up
[speaker001:] Yeah. the whole of their effort really is devoted to
[speaker003:] Yeah they don't do it. They're actually, they just do fund raising to their local groups and everything else is obviously sort of controlled by central office or
[speaker002:] That's right everything is central. Ac action is central or something.
[speaker001:] Yeah but I mean
[speaker003:] So they're probably just gonna have their... you know merchandise and a few people sort of
[speaker006:] It's difficult really because I mean we're sort of striving for the same sort of things
[speaker001:] I know. Yeah.
[speaker006:] aren't we. It's er... you don't want to be seen to be erm
[speaker003:] Who's it actually run by?
[speaker006:] competing with each other in any way.
[speaker001:] Well. I think his name's actually written out. I'm not sure
[speaker003:] It's like trying to unite the churches.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] It looks like somebody Plus Plusky... Oh yeah. No. Oh well. It's signed by s. Oh no sorry. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That can't possibly say. Well it says Leslie at the top. But there's something else underneath.
[speaker003:] I mean is that but is that a Greenpeace central office thing or is it erm
[speaker002:] A local group.
[speaker003:] a local group?
[speaker001:] East Herts. But does it, Pat does it... doesn't he?
[speaker004:] for Herts yeah.
[speaker001:] He still does it now.
[speaker004:] How do you know?
[speaker001:] that have got so involved in that.
[speaker004:] Yeah. And and Bob did it... here in Bishop's Stortford but I don't know whether he's still... I think he still does it because he was very committed.
[speaker001:] But I I just Pat was doing it for Bishop's Stortford on or thereabouts because he sent me all the details about the whale walk. Cos I I gave his name to this guy organizing the one world week. And he hadn't had any joy out of Greenpeace.
[speaker002:] Can I borrow that a minute?
[speaker001:] What this?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] The problem we've got with Greenpeace they might not have so much in the way of merchandise and they just have the stickers and...
[speaker001:] There's the... leaflets.
[speaker003:] things and leaflets. Yeah I think it just depends whether the local group want to take up the option or not....
[speaker001:] I don't think there's anything I've got to tell you.... Er except there's a day of action but it's right... that's right into November now so you can hear about that.
[speaker003:] So we this next meeting at
[speaker004:] Yeah. I I think we can sort out more about the st stall... I mean if we can... sell things
[speaker001:] Well... this this this er Greenpeace letter predates the September.
[speaker004:] Oh that is a pity.
[speaker003:] I think that's actually a bit too soon to get ourselves organized
[speaker001:] Shall I shall I just write off and send them... like pound or donation and a few leaflets could
[speaker003:] Yeah. Say we're quite prepared to make a contribution, mm.
[speaker001:] you put them out or... circulate them. Yeah?
[speaker003:] Yeah I mean don't think Rob would be interested....
[speaker002:] Yeah. He he ought to know about it though
[speaker006:] I'll ask him about it. Cos he lives up the road from there doesn't he?
[speaker003:] Oh... yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm
[speaker003:] And he could collect some money for the
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Alright I'll tell
[speaker002:] Yeah. I expect he, you know they're fairly busy but... you know they may well
[speaker001:] And I'll tell
[speaker002:] not want to go.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Anyway I'll see you all on Wednesday
[speaker001:] Thanks for coming.... Erm...
[speaker002:] Bye Liz.
[speaker004:] I'll going in the afternoon
[speaker001:] There's a few other things that I've got to get through here.
[speaker004:] I mean
[speaker001:] Erm... I've got here. I've been sent some stuff by Chris who used to run Harlow group.
[speaker004:] Oh yeah.
[speaker003:] Chris who was that?
[speaker001:] ?
[speaker005:] .
[speaker002:] Not Christine!
[speaker001:] Yeah that's right they cos [LAUGHTER]... Erm so I've got a whole long list of all these people who used to belong to Harlow which is absolutely enormous.
[speaker003:] Is that Friends of the Earth?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Masses of names
[speaker003:] loads of money and
[speaker004:] Well no, I
[speaker001:] No they've folded now
[speaker004:] They have folded. Well... I think that list is the list that... what was his name, Chris?...
[speaker003:] quite a few as well.
[speaker004:] But if you look properly it's a, that is not only Harlow. Remember he wanted to merge the groups? Don't you remember?
[speaker001:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] Oh yes. Of course.
[speaker004:] And he had all the numbers. Because he also works
[speaker001:] Yes. Some of ou. Yeah.
[speaker004:] in a erm London.
[speaker006:] Isn't it the national?
[speaker004:] No it's it's all the
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker004:] He wanted to call it Stort group or something.
[speaker006:] Oh yeah
[speaker002:] Stort Valley or something wasn't it?
[speaker004:] Stort Valley group.
[speaker001:] Well there's a lo quite a lot. It's mostly Harlow actually when you look through it. But there are Bishop's Stortford ones too.
[speaker004:] Yeah that's all the
[speaker001:] And the vast majority's Harlow.
[speaker004:] That was his plan of having
[speaker003:] What, what do they do they want. What do they want to do? Do they want join our group or
[speaker001:] Nothing. He said he he's apparently just moved and he's got involved with this other charity... erm to do with the United Nations Friends of the Earth and just passed it on to me. Cos the there... there must be useful contacts you see. People who sympathize. we've got the names.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker003:] They were fairly enthusiastic when they started off.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] So I
[speaker001:] But I I mean... we... I don't know whether you think it's worth contacting or not.
[speaker003:] It might be.
[speaker002:] Yes. W either when we've got a reason to contact them
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] or with a specific letter... for them saying you know welcome if you... if you feel like it.
[speaker003:] Actually just just quickly er I just noticed on that list of your... questionnaires that we got back a couple that they didn't actually know what was going on. And that you know perhaps this is er erm publicity wise I wonder whether we're falling a bit short on our... publicity.
[speaker001:] Well. they didn't know... I mean like first newsletter we've had in ages.... And it's something else that we need to get
[speaker004:] we can't just sort of
[speaker002:] No exactly
[speaker001:] We've got to get, we should get more publicity. But it's ever so easy for somebody to sit at home and say well you should be doing this and you should be doing that
[speaker002:] Oh yeah yeah.
[speaker001:] and not doing
[speaker003:] No I'm I'm not sa, I'm not saying. I'm not saying you should be... doing anything I'm just er
[speaker001:] No I didn't mean you, I meant them! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] No well.... I well really I don't think you should say... you're not doing enough!
[speaker001:] No [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] I think last year more or less shows that we really have to concentrate on one thing. Do it and then plan
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] plan the next. Because otherwise we just
[speaker003:] And then write about it if we want to.
[speaker001:] Yeah. So what what we'll do quickly to write and inform them all that we're doing this stall and... won't we?
[speaker006:] Yes. We could even send them... a recycling sheet.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And the most recent newsletter.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] And a, and a short letter I do don't know whether you said that.
[speaker001:] Are you talking about this lot or
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] or that lot?
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker001:] Yeah sorry I was also tal we were talking about our own membership
[speaker006:] talking about Stortford
[speaker002:] Oh right!
[speaker001:] and we passed on.
[speaker004:] No I think they... I mean
[speaker006:] They complain they don't get any information.
[speaker004:] My first contacts with Friends of the Earth... in this region sort of what six years ago was Harlow.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] And they were all enthusiastic and... confident and...
[speaker001:] Well what happened to them?
[speaker004:] And... when... there was another friend who was still over here at that time. And we went three times and they always planned and planned and planned and had ideas what they could do. And they never pulled round to actually doing it
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker004:] properly.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] And I think the same happened as with us. They wrote letters and they did didn't have the energy
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker004:] to... write again and again you know... And you never get a positive answer, clear answer first, first time round do you?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] You have to write and and write more details or put more pressure on and have more people write. But if you just write a single letter
[speaker001:] Yeah but you should. I know you two have been...
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] I'm used to it. I mean... it evaporates.
[speaker003:] . Didn't we have er a membership thing which said about... erm membership form which actually explained what... what we did in... if you want to join return this sort of thing.
[speaker001:] Yeah. I've got loads of those.
[speaker003:] Have you still got those?
[speaker001:] Yes. I've got all those.
[speaker003:] We've still got those somewhere then.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Well I've go have got the. I don't think I don't know if I've got a master. But I know I've got lots that could be copied so we could send them out.
[speaker003:] Well I've got the master still somewhere.
[speaker001:] Well anyway it's something to bear in mind the fact that we've got that list anyway.... Erm...
[speaker006:] Yeah how many. Sort of what's the approximate number of people on it?
[speaker001:] I don't know. I'm not very good at estimating numbers. One two three four
[speaker004:] Oh and then there was... there's it's it's it's not all Harlow it's all... just
[speaker006:] Yeah it's Stort Valley.
[speaker004:] Ya. This Chris... what was his name?
[speaker002:] I don't remember. I don't, didn't even know his name was Chris.
[speaker004:] Don't you remember he he then suggested th that walk along the Stort?
[speaker002:] I do yeah. I mean I'd forgotten all about him but I can remember
[speaker004:] Do you remember that. That was a really silly thing wasn't it?
[speaker003:] Can I just have a look Kath?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] He organized it all and then I think was it a week before he suddenly said... well we can't possibly have two hundred people walking along... a nature trail... that we want to protect.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] And he was really of the illusion that there might be... I think two hundred no six hundred people
[speaker006:] Two hundred people might turn up.
[speaker004:] turning up. In the end I think three people turned up.
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker004:] It was, it was... no it was
[speaker002:] This looks really interesting.
[speaker001:] get it. I had to write off
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Er it was a nice... er display... thing to show to show the kids when you do talks in schools.
[speaker002:] Yeah yeah. Well I mean I'd certainly use it.
[speaker004:] Is is that Greenpeace?
[speaker001:] Yeah that's what I think is it's no
[speaker002:] It's a resources pack
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker002:] It's his own is it?
[speaker001:] Well he's obvious they've obviously the group has bought it and he's got it and he's gonna say do you want to buy
[speaker002:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
[speaker001:] for ten instead of twenty.
[speaker002:] Originally cost twenty pounds and we could get it for ten it's er
[speaker001:] It's Chris
[speaker002:] it's erm... living forests... resources pack.
[speaker001:] Looks good doesn't it? that I thought.
[speaker002:] Erm... with all sorts of po posters and teacher's notes and things.
[speaker004:] Well I firmly believe in building up a library.
[speaker001:] So do I. Good I'm glad
[speaker004:] I I mean there's
[speaker001:] you said that because I w I want to buy a book!
[speaker004:] no library because I think... er if you are contacted for information and you are able to say... okay we have a book... or we have books.
[speaker001:] Yeah. That's that's one of the things I I I ke, I've kept all my New Scientists. I keep these.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I go through them gonna collate that cos there's loads of stuff in there good.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] But I do get quite a few people phone me as you know asking for information. I just photocopy relevant bits
[speaker004:] None of none of them has got in contact with me.
[speaker001:] Really!
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker001:] Aren't they funny. I get the feeling
[speaker004:] Well I should give you er
[speaker001:] that they either phone in. Phone me and then get it all given to them... just like that.
[speaker004:] That yeah.
[speaker001:] And no further effort involved cos
[speaker004:] Well I should, I could. No it isn't.
[speaker001:] This woman who, who keeps phoning me up about all this oil pollution on her land. She she. I sent, I wrote off to Friends of the Earth, I got a load of information all about the law... and she still phones me up and say oh you know what the District Council's they won't do anything and the N R A wasn't doing anything. And I said well when did you last contact them? February!... Apparently she's got a problem that... the oil pollution is coming off this site where they're refurbishing the boilers. It's gotten on to her land... and off her land and into the ditch, which is... you know the N R A
[speaker004:] Where is that?
[speaker001:] Er... Roydon some way? You know where all those nurseries are?... And because the oil is coming... to the ditch via her land they can't have a go at the primary source.... This is what she said and I, to me it doesn't sound right. She said nobody'll... Nob they all say they haven't got the power to prosecute and I said well the N R A has. They've got more clout than anybody else.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] More clout than the District Council. And then she keeps saying but you know what these councils are like. And I said I'm not talking about the council, I'm talking about the N R A!... And now she wants me to find out how can er found out about a solicitor or somebody who specialises in this sort of thing. To take the District Council to court.... So that she's more expensive to them... than this other lot will be. Apparently they're causing quite te dreadful pollution. It's all this oil... from the boilers leaking on to her... into her soil and out into the ditch.
[speaker004:] Well
[speaker002:] Certainly is.
[speaker001:] But erm... in the back of my mind there comes that she's saying to me... don't get involved, don't get involved. You know who owns all that land, it's the mafia. And this could be why she's getting nowhere.
[speaker004:] You could give her er erm er wr, give her the address of Friends of the Earth, London.
[speaker001:] Oh she's already. That's how she got in contact with me! You see they refer everybody on and then I
[speaker004:] Well but they should give her a soli, the name of a solicitor. There must be green solicitors about.
[speaker001:] I have to write to them and ask them and about a month later they reply to me and I pass it on to her.... Because I don't know off hand. I've asked Jeffrey to ask a friend about it who's a... solicitor if he knows anybody but I c, I can't... I haven't got the in information. I don't
[speaker004:] Does anybody of you remember where Friends of the Earth England erm... analyze their expenditures. Their income and... their finance for the last year? I I... saw it somewhere and I got... lost track of it. And I was appalled... as to how much they spend on publicity. But I can't do anything with it because I lost the numbers.
[speaker001:] Mm. I don't know I'll have, have a look. I don't remember seeing
[speaker004:] The thing is this.... Does anybody of you seen that or... remember?
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker001:] So... are we saying yes to that?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm... can I just ask you. Does anybody wanna go on the energy campaign weekend?
[speaker002:] No thank you.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And there's this book. Which I think we might like to... don't worry. Erm... energy without aids. Which I think would be... a good idea if we got it because I don't know about you but I'm always having arguments with people who say oh we can't have the whole country covered in windmills and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] things like that. They all think nuclear powers okay. So we really need to know our
[speaker003:] What's the energy thing weekend just out of curiosity?
[speaker001:] And
[speaker002:] Good. Right. Go on
[speaker003:] I don't. I don't know these things.
[speaker001:] No. Well you don't get them.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] I do and I feel obliged to pass it all on. I can't just sort of
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker001:] But it, I, it's only six ninety five and I thought if we had... you know a few facts at our fingertips to say well that's all rubbish you know.
[speaker003:] So what is that? Is that er... booklet or something?
[speaker001:] It's a book.
[speaker002:] Book.
[speaker001:] Just... talking about al you know alternative
[speaker006:] On erm... renewable yeah
[speaker001:] energy really I think.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Because... they keep saying oh what's gonna happen when the whole population of China wants a fridge and...
[speaker003:] Mm god!
[speaker001:] I haven't got an answer for things like that.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] There is no answer really.
[speaker001:] Because want to catch up with us and we're already using too much energy. change your lifestyle.... I just thought... the more facts you've got at your fingertips the more easy it is to persuade people.
[speaker002:] Yeah if we've got some money we might as well spend it.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Okay.
[speaker002:] Educate ourselves.
[speaker001:] An and the next day of action... as I said before is on tropical rainforests erm. Connection with er tropical woods
[speaker003:] Oh we did actually do
[speaker001:] November the ninth.
[speaker003:] for the architects. Like Hertfordshire architects
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] for example. Do something basically have a
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker003:] mailshot or ring them up or. They're a pretty depressed lot at the moment
[speaker001:] Yeah I bet they are. They have nothing to do
[speaker003:] Not much to look forward to so they'll probably like a bit of excitement.
[speaker001:] Nothing to do. No I... I don't know what it's going to be about they haven't sent any information. It's just that er I've got the date.
[speaker005:] Right.
[speaker003:] When when they say. Is it an action day?
[speaker001:] It's an action day. It's the next day of action and
[speaker002:] What date?
[speaker001:] That's a Saturday.
[speaker002:] What date?
[speaker001:] November the ninth.
[speaker002:] It's only just after the one world week thing.
[speaker001:] Well it's October.
[speaker004:] Well if I if I get
[speaker002:] Well it's only two week's after.
[speaker001:] Yeah.... and I don't know what it's going to be
[speaker003:] You know know which would recommend
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] This. I mean I have been into this... window frame business.
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker004:] Because we have to have sash and... sash soft wood. So anyway... various companies wrote. Well they do use tropical rainforest wood but
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] it's government... er schemes.
[speaker003:] Yeah it's like some sort of erm okay.
[speaker004:] Yeah. And I mean I have, I I remember that on some T V programmes they they said it's all... bogus
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] I mean that it is not really government run er. They reforest it but what they reforest is eucalyptus or...
[speaker003:] Yeah palm erm they oil palm plantations
[speaker004:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] They just er. Actually I've got a, I've got a brilliant picture that I took outside the train. Erm we were travelling through Malaysia and erm... it's just one canopy tree standing on its own... in the middle of nowhere. And there's all this sort of undergrowth. And it's obviously that one wasn't, just didn't want it or it was dead or something and they just left it.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] And it's just the one. And then I've got all the pictures of all the logs on the... train wagons and er that was really... it was a, it was a good picture actually cos I thought oh look at that poor old tree there it's
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] all its friends and then it was just standing there on the ground. But really it's completely... it's completely wiped out Malaysia the whole of central Malaysia is just... just gone. And all the soil's eroding cos it's sort of sand and it's red. And it goes into dust. So it goes everywhere so I mean there's gonna be trouble with that in the future.
[speaker001:] It's where they get all the flooding isn't it?
[speaker003:] Oh yes. Right.
[speaker005:] Oh. okay.
[speaker002:] Thanks.
[speaker005:] Thank you very much.

[speaker001:] Yes. We shall just have to pretend it's not there, there's not, there's not quite as bad as when I had to speak for Amnesty on Radio Essex last year and it was live, as every word, every word I spoke was being you know [LAUGHTER] being heard by a lot of people and that's, that was very, that was very intimidating. Erm, I think since we've got some new people here, I'll, I'll perhaps just say a little bit about the group shall I, just to explain how we operate and erm and also how this meeting is going to operate erm. We are one of about three hundred Amnesty groups in the country, probably about this... size, perhaps, well were, were, I mean this, this group is probably about an average for the, you know, the groups in the country, some are smaller, some are much larger, but er, usually it's about a dozen or so people meeting once a month or, or that often in a room, erm, but apart from groups there are a l there are a great many more people who are called individual members of Amnesty about eighty thousand I think now who are, who just joined by writing to headquarters and many of those have no contact with the groups at all, we've had list of the people in this area and they run into hundred and fifty, two hundred people who live in this area who er, who belong, who, who belong to Amnesty but don't actually come to a group except for a small number of us. So the, the groups are very important though, because the groups do a great deal of the work for Amnesty, cos Amnesty's different from many organisations erm in that er, what the groups do, particularly the letter writing erm, helps to make the organisation work, it's not just a matter of raising money, we do things to, to fund raise or two, er have a proper publicity erm, the le the letters we write for prisoners and helps Amnesty to do it's work and not many other organisations operate like that. You can still do that as an individual member, cos in the magazine that comes every two months there are always cases, but er, it er, it's not qu ite the same as doing it in a group where we have our own particular prisoners to look after. So as far as this meeting's concerned, erm, most of our meetings are basically business meetings, but we, we have tried and we will try to put in speakers and, and do different things from time to time, we had er, er a woman last time who'd been to Central America recently and she gave us a very interesting talk on a visit to El Salvador and Guatamala, erm, and we, we'd like to do that more often, but, but what we do really erm, to begin with any rate, is we go th we go through the, the headings on this sheet, on the, on the minutes, we use them as headings for others and erm, items on the agenda and er... some may have more to say than others and there are one or two not on there which we'll pop in as we go along. So we start with apologies, does any one have any apologies to give to Ann?
[speaker002:] Yeah, Nicki and Saria.
[speaker003:] Yeah, Mike, Mike and, he's erm I don't think he's, I think he will be able to in future he's got a meeting arranged tonight... and he'll be here next time.
[speaker001:] We don't have from Hockerill school do we?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Yes, yes.
[speaker001:] You're there, oh sorry
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] you're not the same that's why, that's why.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, right, so you're from Hockerill school?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Right, good, that's.
[speaker004:] Margaret can, can you ask, if I circulate that list again can you put your surname, anyone who's new, your surname, and then address. Oh are you new? Yes. Can you put your surname and address, so I can send you the minutes after this. I've got.
[speaker001:] Right, and, and, so your, your group's actually is it now?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] , the other way, the other way of, in which you can get more close to live Amnesty is to affiliate as a school group or a youth group or a religious group erm, that's nice to see you tonight. Erm... right now, er if you look at the minutes then of last meeting erm, can anyone see any thing they want to correct there at all? If they, if they seemed to be alright then I just sign a copy and that goes into our records.
[speaker004:] Can I just draw people's attention to the very last point which was made in case any one sending large sums of cash through the post office, erm, it, it's been running for a long time My mum was the only one who. And you're.
[speaker001:] So what are you talk
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Your, your correct address is, is road isn't it, it's still reads as if it might not be, please note that on the membership list, Velma 's address is not Avenue.
[speaker004:] Is there a Avenue?
[speaker001:] It's Avenue.
[speaker004:] It should be road.
[speaker001:] It should be road.
[speaker004:] So, is there a Avenue? Yes, there is, yes. Oh, I see. She normally she brings them round to me, but erm.
[speaker001:] Shall we just, yeah
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER], getting fed up with it.
[speaker001:] On membership list Velma 's address should be
[speaker004:] It should be, should be, yeah.
[speaker001:] Should be 's Road, not Avenue. Right... erm, so were happy with the, with the minutes otherwise, alright I'll, I'll sign them, er
[speaker004:] Eleventh.
[speaker001:] eleventh, always have to look at them to see...
[speaker004:] . Like that. Oh you want the surnames of is that what you mean surnames of the Hockerill people? Yeah . They're, they're on, they're both on. Oh they are on there, alright, and I've got your address,. I've got the address of the other, the other.
[speaker001:] Right, erm, now... are there any matters arising from the minutes which erm, you want to bring up now, which won't come up under any other heading? Usually it's sort of following up things which have been mentioned, which, erm, Mary events that have taken place. I wonder about this Justice and Peace Group who requested a speaker, did they hear any more?
[speaker004:] Mary lives near them.
[speaker001:] Well then?
[speaker002:] Well I'm rather curious erm phone call from Eric, Ernest
[speaker001:] Ernest is the chair of the Saffron Waldren Group, yes.
[speaker002:] People keep asking Saffron Waldren
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] for help and in fact, I had already spoken to the Justice and Peace Group, so I don't really know where the muddle had come, but he said he got a, a list from British Section and Bishop's Stortford hasn't got any representative at all, which is extraordinary, so I don't whether Rose has little note and told Mr.
[speaker001:] A list of what? Got a representative for as a speaker?
[speaker002:] No, representative Amnesty, all for, only known he had, I think it was Ann's and he, Ann was out he didn't get her, I thought, no it wasn't you, it was Ann, and he, and he couldn't get her, I don't understand quite what's he talking about, but anyway, I phoned the Justice and Peace Group and found they'd already,
[speaker004:] spoken.
[speaker002:] yes, and a, she's phoned tonight and said she hadn't arranged anything yet, but it's in hand.
[speaker004:] Oh, I see she hasn't actually given a talk, but she's going to. But she's, she going to deal with it?.
[speaker002:] I think it's alright.
[speaker004:] I, I haven't spoken to her, since the last meeting, so
[speaker001:] But if you do speak to them, perhaps you could get them affiliated again, cos they used to be didn't they in Sister May and Paul's time.
[speaker004:] I don't know where they? Yes. . That was Justice and Peace Group at St. Ersly?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Oh right.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker004:] So when he's. Yes, yes we should ask Saria when he speaks to them, to see if they could do that, no, right. What happened, what, it's not as bad as it sounds, it'll.
[speaker001:] Oh that's, that's a hand that she, she's going to speak, that's for the.
[speaker004:] But, but, erm, I understand from quite often got erm individual member quir enquiries to Saffron Waldren cos they couldn't find a group erm, there's a. Oh that's for. Yes that's in, in the Highbury it's in the phone book so See I don't know what
[speaker001:] Any rate I said we were very much alive.
[speaker004:] That's right, so if. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Right, okay, the other thing I was going to ask about we, we had a big promotion of Amnesty by The Body Shop, last year, er and we noticed that Our Price were also going to do promotion of Amnesty and we asked, wonder if we look into local shops and see what they could find out and what was going on, did you find anything?
[speaker004:] Yeah, I, I went in yesterday actually, I spoke to the assistant manager and erm, it, it was not good news at all, he got two like plastic dispensers of leaflets in front of the till . and erm, they were absolutely chocker, they were really full and he said erm, I sa, he said he hadn't had to fill them up at all in all the time that it's been running, and no, I asked him if he had any enquiries and nobody stopped him and asked anything about it, and then he turned to the other lad who was beside him the sales assistant and he said no I've had no enquiries at all, so that was it. It's a similar story I just took erm, some leaflets, take a look at that. It's just erm... oh it's their own leaflet at Our Price Yes. Yes. Yes, but it's about the erm, thirty to er Thirty thirtieth anniversary yes, erm, the programme on television Mm, mm. erm, but again they said they'd hardly, hardly anyone had taken any.
[speaker001:] Was that the only publicity though, there were no other, no.
[speaker004:] Alright Liz? I didn't, I think that was the, that was it, it was just that . Would you bring that other chair. . . Er, group. I don't know whether it. would the, did the staff seem interested, a got a nil positive response from them, assistant manager or the other guy who sort of looked at me as if I Erm, no, no, no it wasn't like that at Harlow. I wrote out a. Oh doesn't sound very, doesn't sound very hopeful. Oh dear.
[speaker001:] Erm The Body, The Body Shop staff were all give were all given training weren't they and, and a lot of details and they had a video that they use with them, perhaps that's the aspect that's not been looked at so well.
[speaker004:] Mm. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Still they've got leaflets there, that's something I suppose, mm, right, so there's not, there's not a lot more we can do then really is there?
[speaker004:] Yeah .
[speaker001:] Unless you can have...
[speaker004:] Think it's.
[speaker001:] no, if they're, if they're, if they're not doing it, you know, the way The Body Shop did it, probably won't come to anything, mm, right, erm, are there any other matters arising, people want to bring up from the minutes?... no.
[speaker004:] Oh, probably the future of.
[speaker001:] Yes, yes, I think. Erm, right, so we'll move on, erm to the treasurer's report er now that Val is a treasurer she can tell us how we stand.
[speaker005:] Right, well we have two hundred and sixty five pounds and sixty eight pence in the bank at the moment, erm which actually isn't very much if you think that we've got to go right through to July to our next fund raising event, so, I was wondering that, if anyone hasn't paid their subscriptions for last year or if anyone owes for Christmas cards, I think there's one or two
[speaker004:] How much is the subscription?
[speaker005:] I don't know, you'll have to ask Mary.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker001:] How much is it Mary?
[speaker002:] I think it's still
[speaker004:] No you didn't pay I didn't. no, I know. I think I made a little note.
[speaker001:] I think it's still only five pounds, isn't it?
[speaker004:] Oh I haven't checked with.
[speaker001:] Mary, Mary, how much is the subscription?
[speaker002:] Well it's, we haven't altered it, it's still two fifty if you're an individual member and five pound if you're not.
[speaker001:] If you're, yes.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] We need a lot of new members [LAUGHTER].
[speaker005:] It's because the erm, we can't really let, let the balance go to low especially if we've got the A G M coming up or probably be erm something.
[speaker004:] don't we?
[speaker005:] I don't, I don't really know, I can't remember what
[speaker001:] Twelve hundred pounds.
[speaker005:] We extend it to this year as well as last?
[speaker001:] No, what I mean is, we don't double the amount, I'm sorry we, were supposed to send six hundred.
[speaker005:] Ah.
[speaker001:] In fact this has been a bit over ambitious, very pleased with ourselves weren't we, perhaps we haven't given ourselves enough?
[speaker004:] But, there's still some Christmas cards.
[speaker001:] Ah right, well perhaps we can chase people up when they.
[speaker004:] They, there's the little bits, yes not too much, but a little bit. Oh yes, that's.
[speaker001:] But we have been as l low as that before?
[speaker005:] Oh yes, yes.
[speaker001:] Yes, it's just that quite right, we haven't got a fund, a major fund raising event now until July, unless anything else of, you know, smaller crops up and our two street collections we know will bring in quite a lot of money.
[speaker005:] Yeah, that's right and we had the car park last year didn't we?
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker005:] That was earlier on.
[speaker001:] Mm, well, we'll just have to go, go easy [LAUGHTER].
[speaker005:] So, that's all I think.
[speaker001:] Yes, as I say. Right, now erm, the next item is the prisoner, but we actually don't have a prisoner at the moment do we, because our, we have, we eat, every Amn each Amnesty Group has er usually nowadays one er given to look after and our most recent prisoner was er Sabri Lushe, is that the right one?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] From, from Yugoslavia, and we, we heard provisionally he was released about August didn't we, and then eventually a couple of months ago that he had definitely released, erm, and, were, were very pleased about that cos was he released before the end of his term, he must have been?
[speaker004:] He was, well it wasn't much before it, it was erm, he should of come out in February, he came out the Previous July.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] So.
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker004:] So, seven months, plus another year I think he had already.
[speaker001:] Yes. And he was previously in, in prison for del for handing out leaflets, er asking for the Independence or the separation of his bit of Serbia wasn't he, from, from the, from the rest. Erm, so what were doing is were, we hope were waiting for a new prisoner... to be allocated to us, erm, and perhaps we could, perhaps we could, perhaps we can write and remind you think, think we should do that?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Haven't heard anything at all have we? I'm not sure, in the lists in the magazine we should have appeared as being having been released
[speaker004:] Yes, I'll check it.
[speaker001:] he hasn't been in has he? Mm.
[speaker004:] . I think they were playing on the, the sheet I'd sent back doesn't say that we hadn't had any official conformations, still didn't, although we had, had it on the telephone we hadn't had anything written. No, Val, have we still not had a letter from er...
[speaker005:] No, no, we haven't
[speaker004:] from M I S and that?.
[speaker005:] We, we had a letter from the International Secretarium in August or September I think saying that they'd changed the law and all prisoners of a certain category should have been released and our prisoners were amongst, our prisoner was amongst that list, but erm, they didn't say that they haven't got any definite news whether he had been or not, about the release.
[speaker004:] Yeah, mm.
[speaker005:] And it wasn't until I phoned the co-ordinators that he was able to tell me that, oh yes, yes, that was months ago he said
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker005:] you know, haven't you heard? and I said well we've not had any official conformation.
[speaker004:] Well. Yeah, this, this is interesting, it gets confusing perhaps because erm, I rang British Section, British Section today erm, enquiring about er, ah, there it is, were, were are we, erm enquiring about er groups having two prisoners you brought this up last time and as the result of me talking to somebody there erm, it became clear that British Section still showed us as having Sabri Lushe as a prisoner, erm and they weren't aware that we were no longer dealing with him, he'd been released, and what they say is they usually get conformation from International Secretarium Mm. erm and I said well, you know, as far as I'm aware we've had conformation Yes, but it's not written you see. but, not written. But it's interesting, but the Erm. the co-ordinator was very definite about his list, he, there was no question that, that he had, he'd, he'd got something written is, even he hadn't. Mm. Perhaps we, I mean, then British Section said to us on this erm and I'd s, already said I think er by the time it got to this stage of conversation that we were without a prisoner at the moment, but, but awaiting one, and he said well, that would ex, that would explain it because er, until we initiate it, British Section initiates it you won't get another prisoner, they're waiting for conformation from R E S Won't get one.
[speaker001:] Ah well in that case it would be a good idea to write to R E S.
[speaker004:] So it needs some, an action somewhere to erm, er, er, he said... could we get, if we've got a conformation, conformation that's from R E S could you send it to British Section. No, we haven't I anywhere.
[speaker001:] Yes, we, yes the, the rea the reason why it, this why confu confusions is if anyone else doesn't realise is that the International Secretaire, which is the International Body controlling all Amnesty Groups throughout the world of which there are maybe fifty, sixty, I've lost count of the number, erm
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] is, is, in London and we deal with the British Section which is are the particular bits, but the prisoners have to be vatted and looked at and found by the International Secretaires, then they're passed on to British Section who pass them on to us and a great deal of research goes into making sure that they really are truly prisoners of conscience, that they've been in prison for some er possibly because of their belief or religion or their race erm and they've not taken or advocated violence not taken part in or advocated violence and then, then they are full prisoners of conscience erm we maybe allocated them.
[speaker004:] Who should I write to British Section or?
[speaker001:] Well some, I think it's probably British Section, probably the best way just to write and say that we know, this is the case
[speaker004:] Erm...
[speaker001:] let them, let, do you think, let them, let, cos if we leave it to International Secretaire they may still not do it.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Or both.
[speaker004:] Co-ordinator come under British Section and International Secretaire?
[speaker001:] The what?
[speaker004:] The co-ordinator.
[speaker001:] I don't, there isn't a Co-ordinator for prisoners as such is there?
[speaker004:] No, I'm not sure. There's a Crawly for Yugoslav So you go prisoners that I, I list them
[speaker001:] Ah, yes.
[speaker004:] Yeah, and is he, under British Section? He comes under British Section.
[speaker001:] Mm, and if he knows he's been released why doesn't British Section knows this?
[speaker004:] Well. Mm. It's serious isn't it.
[speaker001:] Well we cou, we could write to both if necessary I mean they'd want them to know that we, that our prisoner's been released and that we can have another one.
[speaker004:] Yeah Well, certainly, who ever it was I spoke to today said their files show they was, was still dealing with it. Mm. What was the outcome of the request of the multiple persons? Right, the, I was, about to er come to that, erm... the erm, there is no reason why a group should not have more than one prisoner erm, the practical situation is that, that groups are queuing up to, to get a prisoner at the moment in fact, erm, not always the situation but at presently there is a waiting list for who have groups to have a prisoner allocated to them, erm, if we so wish er, ah, if, if a group comes onto the list who has er, ah, and their prisoner is released and, and we, we er in that situation we, and any group without a prisoner at all goes to the head of the list and be allocated straight away, but we could request a second prisoner and that case would be put to the bottom of the list, so when the other groups who, who've got no prison will take priority now, but we, we could request a second prisoner if we so wanted so you are talking about a motion at the A G M, but it's not really necessary Oh I see. it is.
[speaker001:] The possibility's always there, but
[speaker004:] The possibility's there if we wish to take that up.
[speaker001:] Yes, I've always, I've always understood, understood more recently the reason why that there would always seemed to be enough prisoners, when we know there really must be enough prisoners throughout the world is that the betting procedure and they're making quite sure they're the right people takes time and money and effort, erm, that's part and also there are some areas of the world now, where, where there aren't as many prisoners as there were, there are very few, there are very few prisoners of conscience in Latin America because they don't put them in prison they just get rid of them, they just disappear and there are practically, practically none from Latin America countries, cos of these, these disappearances rather than being put in prison, erm, but it's a sort of combination of reasons I think but er quite a long time now, ten, fifteen years I think groups have only had one prisoner, whereas when I first joined and Ann's there, we had three didn't we at one time?
[speaker006:] Yes, oh yes
[speaker001:] So, that was when there were far fewer numbers of groups than there are now.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Mm, so I'll see. But anyway, our, our prisoner, we, we, we are fairly sure he's been released, he's a, we had him for about two was it one or two years?
[speaker004:] About eighteen months I think.
[speaker001:] Yes and on the whole recently we've had prisoners who been imprison for sort of two or three years, we've, we've made up petitions, we've sent postcards and we've, we've written letters and er they've been released in reasonably short space of time, but then mostly the prisoners which, who haven't had a very long sentence, unlike the one I mentioned on the way here tonight, have the Russian who had been in thirty years
[speaker004:] Ooh.
[speaker001:] erm and he was released and he came to Harlow and we meet him and that was, that was very good, erm, but we haven't had one like that, you know for a long time. Erm just noticing press we did, say last time that would be, that Sabir's release would be mention in the press, did you manage that?
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah,
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker004:] Well, well I'll do it in the
[speaker001:] Yes, yes,.
[speaker004:] Erm
[speaker001:] Right
[speaker004:] Sorry, got to, got, a, clarifying on that then, what, who we writing too on that I'm, I'm.
[speaker001:] Who do you think you're writing too?
[speaker004:] I [LAUGHTER]. Erm. I mean, I, I was very much got the impression from her I, I'm sorry I didn't get a name, the chap I was speaking to, but erm... it, he, he was very distinct that we should get a letter from I S and that have conformation and, and, er and send it on, you know, that, they all should also should get a copy, so it, it strikes me we should perhaps write a write to I S and perhaps send a copy with a covering letter to British Section I got erm... and brochures sort of thing you know. Do you think we should go to I S. Yes, British Section.
[speaker001:] That an idea, yes, we, if we let them both know then, then erm, we might we might speed things up.
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, then, yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Erm, see if, if there's a... a hitch and also get er something out.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Get things moving.
[speaker001:] Yes, because it'll be nice, us, it's, I mean they, abode there is a lot oth, there is, there is a lot of other work now, there prisoner are prisoner of is still fairly central isn't it, he or she to be, to be er, the work we do.
[speaker004:] The most sort of personal thing I suppose, erm, let the group open.
[speaker001:] Right, now if we look on, erm we come to Regional Action Networks, another reason why Amnesty seems not to allocate more than one prisoner and all now is that they have expanded the ways in which we deal with prisoners and the world is more or less been divided up into areas, erm, of smaller regions and groups are asked to choose one or two regions to deal with particularly and we, we have for quite a long time now erm been concerned with Southern Africa and Central America and we get information through on prisoners and what's happening in those two regions, so John do you have anything else on Africa at all?
[speaker003:] Erm, I have nothing at all through me, erm, no action's come and er no information really, there is this change of co-ordinates up erm
[speaker001:] You mention that.
[speaker003:] co-ordinates up, erm, you know, I haven't yet had contact from... er... no, I thought I'd been given a new name, but, no I haven't had con any contact from my new co-ordinator yet, erm, but that wasn't in my mind when I spoke on Thursday about Christmas, perhaps I ought to pursue that one in time for the next meeting and see what's happening in South Africa and are getting it in South America for.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Erm, I'll, well perhaps pursue that
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker003:] for the ne, in time for the next meeting, erm there was, what's full name for er not sending in a return or couple of returns erm at the last meeting and I've dealt with that and sent them off, have they sent you anything else?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No, thank god [].
[speaker003:] Right erm
[speaker001:] .
[speaker003:] but er, I have nothing, nothing, er no actions at all which is mysterious to me, I, why nothing's going on I don't know.
[speaker001:] Yeah, right, thank
[speaker003:] I'm jealous of Peter he always has much more
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. Are you kidding? It's, I, I mean these, these, the work with, with the original action network seems to, seems to come and go, you've got a very large amount at one point and then nothing for sometime, it just depends er, I think which country they're targeting and how much there is, because we had quite a lot on Malawi didn't we during the early part on last year not much on South Africa recently, as if they don't quite know what to do, you know with the situation there it's not quite er clarified. Mm.
[speaker001:] Right, now Peter do you have anything on Central America this time?
[speaker007:] Erm not a great deal, no actions
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker007:] er, so I've a, isn't it, it's a case of no news is possibly good news again, erm, I'm trying to get in touch with the National Co-Organiser for Carl and John without er any success erm, I know he was going to the erm, the British Section just erm, he was gonna check on them and what actions were forthcoming but er, I haven't heard about that erm, I dare say there's some on the way erm, the erm, the other few points were erm Jackie's talk last month she mentioned that erm she was gonna give sort of the more forms sort of side presentation and stuff at their centre in North London, I've gotta date for that now, it's erm the eighteenth of March, which is a Wednesday so eh, I'll certainly be going, if anybody else is interested that's er, that's the date... er, it's, it's not entirely to do with but it, it has a link in, erm we were mentioning campaigns last month, I believe there's a fourth coming one on, indigenous peoples, which, er, it's, it's all sort of triggered off by erm the er five hundredth anniversary of Columbus discovering the Americas erm, the erm cast and the whole of all the sort of the Region and Action networks and the Americas are, erm gonna have a big link in with that campaign so, erm, I, I'd really like to see us sort of getting involved with that, yes, and, I mean, I'll be involved to an extent anyway, cos some of the actions that I'll getting will be sort of addressing the issue of indigenous people's but erm, erm, they if, if nobody else is wiling to take it on, I'll, I'll, I'd certainly be prepared to erm, sort of co-ordinate that campaign, erm, having said all that, erm I mentioned to a few people that erm, erm in the process of buying a house, so erm I could be moving in well hopefully as little as two months time so erm, I mean if er is as quite as it has been for the last few months, I probably won't have any problems, but erm, sod's law it's bound to pick up just as I'm moving house
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker007:] so erm,
[speaker004:] Is the house local or erm?
[speaker007:] yeah it is local so I'll still be coming to the group, I mean it's erm, going, I mean erm just bear that in mind I might need sort of some help with coordinating cards and things, and erm, particularly if we do opt into the campaign, er it might be advisable for somebody else to do it, or at least sort of give me assistance.
[speaker004:] What is?
[speaker001:] .
[speaker007:] It, ah sorry.
[speaker001:] I, I, I don't mention it.
[speaker007:] It's Central America's special action, stands for it's, gives another regional action network, erm, right, I think that's it.
[speaker001:] Right, now, erm, were going to have it on the actual headings as far as the minutes concerned cos we didn't deal with anything very much last time, but the next item on the agenda erm, is usually campaigns and Amnesty erm usually has one or two or more campaigns running on a particular aspect of it's work or a particular country and there was some that really started maybe two or three years ago and which have continued erm in a smaller form since that time. One of those is a death penalty campaign which was a very big one about two, two to three years ago when we focused particularly on, on the United States and all the other major countries which erm... which er used the best penalty to fairly large extent, er do we have anything Catherine on that tonight?.
[speaker008:] Yes yes we do actually.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker008:] Erm, a couple of days ago, that's what they call a surprise action
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. What a surprise.
[speaker008:] we asked for space, and they said oh mid April, and that actually is the next schedule step down action and that's going to be on Europe and that'll run from April till June, erm but from now till April if anybody would like to write the country which is Chile and this is because they're, they suppose that they have extend the death penalty in Chile to include the murder of an off duty police witnesses, at the moment it's only erm, the death penalty only exists for on duty police officers
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker008:] so, erm, it's not actually very big, there are about eight addresses here, they do say if anybodies able to write in Spanish if anybody can sort of if you write in English, maybe could send it to you, could get it translated at the Stortford, oh that might be very useful, erm, I mean, I'll certainly do some letters and if anybody else wants to, if they let me know I'll let them have the addresses... for them, erm, there are fax as well and that suppose to be a quicker way than writing a letter actually than send through a fax, right, erm, if anybody can then we could send them to you and, and ask you to send it on, and we would sort of postage, would be covered would it Margaret?
[speaker001:] Oh yes it could be, yes, it could, it could be, if it's not too much, not faxed now
[speaker008:] Yes, so the wouldn't be, no, no. So if anybody would like to write I'll let them have all the addresses, there are about eight there, so erm, otherwise it's just the urgent action network which is er a constant thing really. Did one yesterday for a man who was due to be executed today, erm, I don't know whether he was or not, but he probably in a few days time.
[speaker001:] Which country was that?
[speaker008:] United States.
[speaker004:] United States. Oh gosh.
[speaker008:] So er, that's it anyway it's just Chile at the moment.
[speaker001:] So you'd like people to come to you afterwards if, if they, help, they can.
[speaker008:] Yes, if they want to, take their address.
[speaker001:] Right, thank you, erm, now Ross isn't, is there anything further on the thir, last year was the thirtieth anniversary of Amnesty's foundation in nineteen sixty one and we've had a campaign and that, and that still sort of running is there anything more on that?
[speaker003:] Erm, no there's, there's nothing on that.
[speaker001:] No, no, no, so perhaps we have finished.
[speaker003:] Well, I mean, hopefully there, there'd be at least er sort of thing erm in the summery to see what went on during the year
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker003:] at the moment we have nothing so just have to wait and see.
[speaker001:] Yeah, right. Now what about these other campaigns we mentioned last time, did we decide what, or did we leave it till this meeting cos there was India and there was Women's
[speaker004:] Women, yeah I spoke to [LAUGHTER] [] and er, it just. Yes, er I'll campaign. India we were going to discuss it with.
[speaker001:] So women you've sent, have you sent up Avriel's name or will send it up.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] I'll will send it up []. Yes. The late contact. [LAUGHTER] []
[speaker001:] It wasn't er, it wasn't a very long one was it, it was two or three months was it?
[speaker004:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] I think it was February to April.
[speaker001:] Mm, actually we had a women's campaign last year didn't we?
[speaker004:] Yes we did didn't we?
[speaker001:] Sort of a continuation of
[speaker004:] We had a fairly good result
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker004:] I do recall four out of ten released.
[speaker001:] Mm, there was quite a lot of publicity given to that wasn't there?
[speaker004:] Yes, it was very good...
[speaker001:] So you'll let me have that information?
[speaker004:] Or shall I, if I send the form off with your name, then they should come straight to you.
[speaker001:] Right, so what was the situation with India then? that's, that, how long was, how long does that run?
[speaker004:] Erm.
[speaker001:] Can't remember that far.
[speaker004:] Erm, I think it was March to about July something like that. March to July. Yeah.
[speaker001:] That's really a matter if, if anybody who's interested enough to take on what we call co-ordination, receiving the material and then you know, telling people what letters are needed. Erm...
[speaker004:] Is that running for the same period of time as the Women's campaign, do you know?
[speaker001:] Seems to overlap it's just slightly longer isn't it?
[speaker004:] overlap slightly, March to Ju July.
[speaker001:] Mm, yes.
[speaker004:] Are these the campaigns involve then? This is receiving the material, passing and sort of distribute it to the people within the group who are interested in writing letters. And it's mainly just writing letters is it?
[speaker001:] And advertising it and just anything you can do, er
[speaker004:] You'll be,
[speaker001:] to.
[speaker004:] you'll be, you'll be sent instructions on what, who to write to and it's a matter of sorting those out and erm sending out letters to group members like asking them to write to this person or that person, so that's not too bad,.
[speaker001:] Are, are you interested then?
[speaker004:] some help, brilliant sort of meetings. Well can I bring, say bring it to the meeting and.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm, we might even manage, I mean, we, we might talk later on about this, but, perhaps you know have two or three people working on a campaign if, if, if, if it was felt to be better that way, mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Mm, yeah. You, you've had no news of this indigenous people as a campaign? No. I was wondering about that. . I'm sure it was in last month's news No. Good News letter. It hasn't been in the, I cover, but I have some information you gave me, it hasn't been in that at all, mm. Mm. Mm, perhaps it's gonna be a big one? Making making it, all I know sort of saving it, saving it perhaps to American news. It is, it is, it's gonna be a really campaign. I thought it was, the, they're gonna sort of initially kick it off in March No, it hasn't. It hasn't been mentioned, no, these things sometimes get delayed don't they? Yeah. Mm. Delayed. Is that right? I think it's gonna get most. Yeah.
[speaker009:] Were sending February news letters so if it's starting in March
[speaker004:] Can you give us a copy?
[speaker009:] [LAUGHTER], think were gonna swop.
[speaker001:] Right, er Liz would you do an just to receive the information on India and look through.
[speaker009:] Yes, if,
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] if I find it too much, cos I start, I'm starting a full time job again, I, I'll ask to share it hopefully.
[speaker001:] Yes, yes, it sounds it sounds as it's for a limited time anyway, so, you know
[speaker009:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Good, thank you very much.
[speaker004:] Yeah, it says it starts in March.
[speaker009:] So I, I'm pull your name and address out.
[speaker004:] Oh, great...
[speaker001:] Well we'll shall wait, we shall wait to hear about it, cos it, I don't see there was anything there was there?
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker001:] Right, so that's India, so that's good, so were, so the campaigns erm we are going to be involved in then er will be the Women's campaign and India campaign. That's quite good because y often there is a country though, we haven't had many campaigns on countries sort of lately have we, it's been more on different aspects on Amnesty's work so they're obviously going back to picking on countries where they deal, that'll. Right, now, the next item is the press and we have a press officer, yeah, like to, perhaps say what's been happening a little bit and, and you know talk about the next time.
[speaker004:] No, I haven't done anything recently, but today I actually rang publishing one of the papers about Sabri's release and spoke to a guy at the Herald and Post and someone at The Observer, said I hope you put something in this week.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] And I actually found that it was, it was better to actually talk to them than just send them
[speaker001:] Press release.
[speaker004:] their press release, so I might do that in future, send out a release and then follow it up on the phone call.
[speaker001:] Cos you've got contacts now you know that, you know who the people are.
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, speak to them.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] But I found at Herald and Post the actual reporters have only been meeting and I've been sending all the erm all the paper work to Harlow and Bishop's Stortford, but they're just sort of the erm, the advertising people so erm, that's why we've not had anything in the papers.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Though I've found out now.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Have they moved to Luton recently somebody reported? I don't know. , had a conversation about this. Well when I rang about news was it June last year, they were still at Harlow. Mm. They used to be in they've all gone over to Luton.
[speaker001:] We do get bits in don't we from time to time?
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, recently.
[speaker001:] No. I think they, if they, I mean as long as they know we are going to tell them or give them something each month they ought, ought to begin to look out for it [LAUGHTER].
[speaker004:] No, it's just a bit of, you know the press release that.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Especially if only goes in advertising section.
[speaker001:] Yes I think we, we started doing that originally because er the people from the Epping group said they did that every month didn't they, they, they issued a press release and sent it to all the local papers, that seems to be the way of doing it.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And if you found that, you know, if find that
[speaker004:] Yeah, I might of thought still send out omitting the letter actually this month.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Probably. So I hope really there should be something in those two, and I'll try the Citizen and The Star tomorrow.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Try speaking to Steve at The Star.
[speaker004:] At The Star?
[speaker002:] Yeah, he's quite useful, he's good at that sort of thing... erm...
[speaker004:] So this I thought about doing something on the erm, the new schools' group what we... when we finish the. cos I get some details from they like that sort of thing. Well.
[speaker001:] If you're happy with that? Mm.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Yes [LAUGHTER], yes.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I, I start at the moment. . Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes, have you, I mean if you, ask Kate then Kate can come, come to these four. Good.
[speaker004:] If we can do the Insemination things. [LAUGHTER]. Did I tell you about that? [LAUGHTER]. When we went, it was really funny, when we went to do the, the talk erm, afterwards when we were all sort of getting together and having a chat, they're telling me about, they do artificial, they artificial inseminate pigs Inseminate pigs. don't you, up at with a cork and a bit of cotton wool. [LAUGHTER]. And and John and I were just in fits. [LAUGHTER].. It's not part of the. No, [LAUGHTER]. What item were we on? [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Right, so, were hap were happy with that then? So, we'll, we'll, we'll do something on, on, on the on Hockerill school group, if, if you're happy with that? Yes, we have had other school groups but they, this is the thing, this, I mean, it could happen with you, as, as people move on and leave school er you need to encourage people lower down the school to get interested and then, then it'll, it'll carry on otherwise they tend to drop. Right, now we've come I think to future events, erm, and we need to just try and list anything you know that's coming up so, partly so that we've actually got it down writing and we can look back on it. So we noted last time that I booked the library in Bishop's Stortford for two periods, this year for display, we've booked the er street collection in Bishop's Stortford for July, now are there any other dates we need to mention.
[speaker004:] No, we we got the Harlow street collection though, erm... seventeenth of October.
[speaker001:] Seventeenth of October.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] These, these two collectors are, are our main big fund raising events, erm, we, we have got, we have got erm, is that over, we have got over five hundred haven't we in Harlow I'm, and Bishop's Stortford haven't we?
[speaker004:] Erm, in fact we've got five hundred and twenty seven that
[speaker001:] Is that Bishop's Stort?
[speaker004:] Harlow one.
[speaker001:] In Harlow.
[speaker004:] The last of the collection is Harlow, last intake.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Yeah. And that, and that was a bit of a all year so that's, that passed.
[speaker001:] Yes. Erm, and we, we find although Amnesty does run er door to door collection which we are always encouraged to join in [LAUGHTER] which we never have [], which is I think always in June, in June now, it's good time, it's a good time of year for it, but that means going round putting envelopes in doors, going back and collecting them, the arguments on the doorstep about Amnesty [LAUGHTER], er going back again if people are not in and we, we as a, relatively small group covering a very big area we, we haven't felt able to do that, and we actually find that by standing in the street with each person having a tin for one or two hours, we can do quite well that way and er, that's, that's [clock strikes]. They say Wednesday erm activity at Latton Bush, thanks for sending that information, I've sent off the letter and said that we will take a stall and if anyone's free to help
[speaker004:] Me.
[speaker001:] on the seventh March.
[speaker006:] Which day?
[speaker004:] Wo Women's day?
[speaker001:] Mm, International Women's day.
[speaker006:] What day of the week?
[speaker001:] Erm, I think it's a Saturday Ann the seventh.
[speaker004:] The seventh of March?
[speaker001:] But even if no one else can help I will take part in it.
[speaker004:] Where, is that the Playhouse.
[speaker001:] I think it's, [cough] excuse me, I think it's at erm, it's a I think it's at Latton Bush, I'm not, I'm waiting for the
[speaker004:] It's been at the Playhouse in past years though.
[speaker001:] Oh, well maybe.
[speaker004:] No, it wasn't, wasn't at last year was it? Was it?
[speaker001:] Well last year I did it at Latton Bush.
[speaker004:] Well what, what's the date?. The seventh. The seventh of March.
[speaker001:] Erm, so that's going to be before our next meeting isn't it? So erm, if anybody wants to help contact me.
[speaker004:] Yes, what time, how much is, how much the day is it all day?
[speaker001:] I haven't any details either than what she said.
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker001:] Erm, shall we erm see, what shall we do about this, it's Saturday the seventh of March, on a Saturday
[speaker004:] As I say I'll take a stall and I'll be there all day if anyone can help me.
[speaker001:] Right, well perhaps I, perhaps people could as actually come and speak to me afterwards, if they, if they think they could help at all, that's International Women's Day and all the local organisations have been asked to take part
[speaker004:] Certainly, it's, it's for your. It was quite good last year.
[speaker001:] Yes, and we could sell our products and that's sort of thing.
[speaker004:] Yeah our things,. And that's a good way of advertising our.
[speaker001:] Mm, right, we've got a list, ah, you probably know, there's a list, a list isn't there, of, of sort of sale products, have you had that at all?, thing that came with us, with your, with.
[speaker004:] No. Yes I got it, but you may not of had it.
[speaker001:] I will pass it on, I will pass it on to you. We, we sell quite a lot of Amnesty products, a lot, a lot of clothing in every
[speaker004:] on tonight. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Tee-shirts and er sweat shirts and all sorts of things so we can take them along, so that's, that's Saturday the m, seventh of March, if you think you can help at all see Avriel afterwards.
[speaker004:] have you got a date? Yeah, got a couple.
[speaker001:] Anything you we got some of those things, tell me, I'll bring it along.
[speaker004:] Mm, yeah, [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Right any other future events that ought to be mentioned. Erm, I suppose I don't know whether we ought, whether we should mention it here, erm, the, the National A G M is a future event really isn't it?
[speaker004:] Yes,.
[speaker001:] Erm.
[speaker004:] brought it with me.
[speaker001:] Er.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] And what are the dates again, I think it's the weekend before Easter isn't it I think?
[speaker004:] Er, oh.
[speaker001:] April
[speaker004:] Run out of hold on.
[speaker001:] Right, April, April the tenth to the twelfth, is the, is the National Amnesty A G M which is held over a weekend and this year is in Exeter.
[speaker004:] Exeter. The twelfth.
[speaker001:] Exeter, er so that's the weekend before Easter.
[speaker004:] Er of April.
[speaker001:] And we, we normally have members go, we've had as many as five one year, or was it six, erm, not always that many I think, was it three of you went last year, I think it was three wasn't it?
[speaker004:] Three last year.
[speaker001:] Yes, erm, and, and we, were prepared to subsidise as far as our finances would allow, you know people who are going, but Ex Exeter is quite a long way, so the travel is going to be something isn't it? Erm
[speaker004:] Well I think
[speaker001:] who's, who's thinking of going?
[speaker004:] I, I, I've booked, erm
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker004:] Out comes yeah, so.
[speaker001:] You thinking of going erm
[speaker008:] Yeah I eh
[speaker001:] Peter?
[speaker008:] should still be going, yeah.
[speaker004:] Sari's going. Sari's going.
[speaker001:] Oh Sari.
[speaker004:] Yes I spoke to her. Yes, she's definitely going isn't she?
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Any, anybody else.
[speaker001:] Anybody else thinking of going?
[speaker004:] Any other offers?
[speaker001:] Cos, cos you're going by car are you or?
[speaker004:] I'll, I'll drive yeah, so there are three seats spare in my car, vehicle.
[speaker001:] So that you Plymouth.
[speaker004:] Instead of writing a check, send the cheque. If you can stand the strain of the noise and diesel engine all that way. [LAUGHTER]. All the girls in the back.
[speaker001:] You can get there, you can get there, perhaps, if you can get there
[speaker004:] I've got a seat in the back mate.
[speaker001:] You can get there on motorway, erm, all the way practically, can't you?
[speaker004:] . Mm.
[speaker001:] You can get there on motorway all the way.
[speaker004:] I ha I haven't looked at the round there, yeah, I'm, I'm sure it's not too bad really, you know, you know.
[speaker001:] M four. Right is there anybody else cos we have got forms haven't we?.
[speaker004:] . It's not that long if that's the case then, er, not that long a journey either.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker004:] It's motorway all the way.
[speaker001:] Erm, anybody else interested for it, you said not didn't you.
[speaker004:] It's not to late to book I think it says something about surcharge after sixth of March or something on the form doesn't it? We'll make it. I don't think she was in no. .
[speaker001:] Right, does Saria had a form, she must cos you said she's booked, Peter have you g, Peter you've got forms have you?
[speaker007:] Don't think she has got a form, no, Alma have you got any spare forms for that. No, I think I've distributed them all, didn't I? Mm.
[speaker004:] We could get one from British Section couldn't we?
[speaker001:] You think, I thought you said she's booked, she hasn't booked.
[speaker004:] Oh no, she's definitely wants to go, but she hasn't actually filled out the form.
[speaker007:] Well, she's, she's going to it.
[speaker001:] Erm, yeah I think she said she'd get one directly.
[speaker004:] Erm. I think er, I guess that any individual members would get them in their, erm journal. Yes.
[speaker001:] I might, I might, yes, we, I, well, I'll, looks like it.
[speaker004:] I'm an individual member, perhaps I've done, got round to opening the.
[speaker001:] I'm not sure, I'm not sure, they, they have been there.
[speaker004:] That's possible. . Quite happy you know telephone them to send on
[speaker001:] Ah, right, well, we'll just check, yeah. Cos that's when, when, when we get to that nearer the date, we could, we could just, you know, when you're confirmed that you've been booked and you're definitely going, erm we could look at the finances and see how much we could afford to, to give, erm, something to each person to help with,eit either with the accommodation or, or the transport.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Cos the accommodation is quite a bit, isn't it? It's fifty, sixty or more, probably more this time.
[speaker004:] No. Seventy six pounds. It's seventy six pounds.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] More of sixty five last year.
[speaker001:] Mm, yes.
[speaker004:] Erm.
[speaker001:] That's nice, I'm, it's very good that people are going anyway, it's got
[speaker004:] That's for the whole weekend
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Erm, say anything about that?
[speaker001:] Well it's not sort of place you can get it to, before, before breakfast is it, so er, no.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] It's not, we, we have sometimes gone very early on a Saturday morning to places like Nottingham, but, it's not too far for that. Right, well that's good, erm, and, so in, in relation to the A G M erm we did, we were asked about putting in motion's erm, are you having to leave the one about the press after what John said? How do you feel?.
[speaker004:] One, what, one that we erm, one, yes, yes, but as a group why don't we review having another prisoner when we got
[speaker001:] When we got, when we got the next one yes certainly.
[speaker004:] Yeah, and then to see.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm, right and are we, I mean if anybody still wanted to put in a motion, there is still time just about.
[speaker004:] Yeah about, just about, yeah.
[speaker001:] But eh, you'd have to have it sort of written out and more or less ready I think to go. All groups are invited to send resolution which may or may not be actually debated but erm, we, we don't normally send one in, but some, some groups they send them in, no, no one 's thinking
[speaker004:] Think the closing dates a few days time isn't it? Thursday. Thursday, yeah.
[speaker001:] Oh, right, so it's very close.
[speaker004:] Got to be ready tonight, if they're to get it.
[speaker001:] No. Right, erm, so, I think, I think, as far as future events that's all what we need to mention? Now, erm Rose is secretary and she's had things through from er British Section Headquarters and she'll tell us what she's got there.
[speaker004:] Erm... I don't know if this one concerns us, it's about er, a working group for children, do we have, we don't have a working group for children.
[speaker001:] No, we've never been very close to the now.
[speaker004:] I won't obviously. Erm, I've also received information from the Region, erm with lots of events that's coming up in the East Anglian Region, erm, just run through those quickly, er, there is a workshop on this Thursday at the Courts, erm, there is on Thursday twelfth of March there is er, somebody from the Columbian committee for human rights speaking at an open meeting, that's the fifth... er, Wednesday first of April there is er somebody called Duncan, he's a paediatric surgeon who works part time as a volunteer at the Medical Foundation for the Care and Victims of Torture who will be speaking at St. Mary's and St. Edmunds group, and that, that's Bury St. Edmunds, and then the next East Anglia Regional Meeting is on Saturday May the twenty third at Bury St. Edmunds again. May twenty third? Yeah May the twenty third, it's a Saturday two to five pm at the Friends' Meeting House, Bury.
[speaker001:] Bank Holiday weekend isn't it?
[speaker004:] I don't know. That's all from Region. Er, I've also received minutes from the Epping Forest from Redbridge Group and they also have a lobbying workshop erm, that's on the second of March, and they're asking if anybody's interested in that. Is that an evening? It doesn't actually say I think it's but, er, probably would be. If you're interested could follow it up. They meet in, don't they meet in Leytonstone or was it Wanstead, somewhere in that area. Wanstead Mm, mm. was, was, where they help Islington. Monday mm. Would you be interested in it? Well I might this, this, the time fitting in with the families, they're, they're likely to come back to Okay, well I'll, I put some information not full details [LAUGHTER]. Right. Erm, actually there wasn't a lot of detailed stuff, there was erm, materials for gr groups and winter sales
[speaker001:] Do you want to pass that over to Aida please?
[speaker004:] which we have a... erm, there's a bit about release policy and procedures for local groups, er, groups can help their prisoner with mummy or other erm relief, erm on the Christmas family particularly and it's, it's explaining you know how they do it and the best ways to go about it.
[speaker001:] Mm, cos there's a special fund available for that, that's particularly why they
[speaker004:] anyway they explain all about it, if it would, if we need it. Er, there's a mandate workshop. Oh they, no, sorry, [LAUGHTER], they're offering still a mandate workshop for the group, erm, sending a trainer
[speaker001:] I'm the trainer.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] you're the trainer, oh well [].
[speaker001:] I've been very bad on this recently, I've really been too busy or tired, but I have got, I have, today I have had arrived oh not today, the last few days, the new mandate workshop, so
[speaker004:] So you've got to read through it and let. I was gonna say, having spent some months or years well [].
[speaker001:] It's all the new bits in about it, yes mind you, there's always, always been a mandate, the mandate workshop was the very first one that's produced, but this is an updated version and changes.
[speaker004:] Yeah, have there always been workshops, continue workshops on mandate or?
[speaker001:] Yes, there's always been a mandate workshop?
[speaker004:] Or just when there reviews?
[speaker001:] No, there's always been a mandate workshop, explaining why, you know, what our mandate is.
[speaker004:] You, you did give once to a group a few years ago.
[speaker001:] Yes, I've done the mandate workshop, yes, and I've done it with other groups too.
[speaker004:] Mm. So you've covered a bigger region in the past, not just Stortford.
[speaker001:] I, I have about five or six groups, I can, I can go and give talks.
[speaker004:] So even if we don't [LAUGHTER] call on you to, do it, you won't be called [].
[speaker001:] And I have a lobby workshop too.
[speaker004:] Amnesty's mandate what, what the don't do, or do do. Will there be any erm talking about lobbying, be in, in erm before and er.
[speaker001:] I don't know.
[speaker004:] Done any. . So the er lobbying workshops is the .
[speaker001:] That's why they're being cancelled
[speaker004:] Epping Forest and Redbridge are doing, erm, they've got some lobbying workshops
[speaker001:] Mm, presuming it's got that in mind
[speaker004:] Yeah, I mean he is.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] Lobbying workshops would be that combined, erm... there is er, a one page journalist leaflet which we can order a pound for a hundred, that's it, that's all our journalist [LAUGHTER] friends []., yes that's, erm... yeah, I, last month I received the er, this booklet on the trade and they seemed to be coming out to doing campaign on erm a collection between British training and goods, er and their use abroad erm, and they now, they've got a, a booking form for a fringe meeting at the A G M, if anyone's particularly interested attending.
[speaker001:] Shall I pass, shall we pass this one.
[speaker004:] . Yes, the report on this, this book. Yes, there are, there are feature on the, just highlighting a couple of case for these, I imagine a problem book Yeah. and, there is. It is a good book that I, I've read through that, it's quite an informative. It was in one of the Sunday.
[speaker001:] It's called the M S P, the Military Security Police, mm.
[speaker004:] Security . I could, seems to though they're getting stronger on this than.
[speaker001:] Mm, it's come to the front of the journal hasn't it section
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] mm.
[speaker004:] One, one... er stress in my, on what happens so that, that it's companying it's been manufacturing leg irons that's been going out there to the Nile, hasn't it, wasn't it to. They didn't mention, they'd mentioned somewhere else, but erm Somewhere. I think it was Central America wasn't it? Wasn't it Saudi?. No. Saudi they had some sort of electronic torture chamber Thing electric was Oh yeah, the erm, the house of or something. Yeah. Wasn't one of the chair was, though the man held up, held arms was it? He wasn't an, I think he was. Oh, perhaps erm Got a number of. yes, mm, one wonders what a British company are doing manufacturing leg irons anyway in the twentieth century. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] No... when you get to, when you get to the magazine, I'll see on the front cover.
[speaker004:] Yeah. It's not it's very.
[speaker001:] Right, anything else from Headquarters?
[speaker004:] Erm, I know there's a world conference at the assembly, central hall, Westminster, twenty second of February.
[speaker001:] It's Bury St. Edmunds interest in Asian we generally go if we've got an Asian prisoner, we haven't, perhaps it's of opinion.
[speaker004:] Sorry I missed that, Asian week.
[speaker001:] As
[speaker004:] conference, on the twenty second of February. Er raffle tickets, have a raffle ticket. . I'll give it to Peter, are you interested in that Peter, or.
[speaker007:] .
[speaker001:] Er this is erm, er this is the Spring, can't read out what it is, the Spring, this is the great Spring raffle, Amnesty does get quite a lot of money from the raffles, er they start off with just the Christmas one now we have them all through the year I think,
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] and they, the first prize is a thousand pounds cash, second prize family holiday cottage in the Isle of Mule and third prize holiday cottage in Norfolk and fourth prize holiday apartment in Cumbria and the, I mean the idea is you take a book and try, if you have a place of work or, or friends that will buy raffle tickets er just try and sell them and er, how much are they? er
[speaker004:] Fifty pence each.
[speaker001:] fifty pence each, right, erm, and er fill in the slips and either bring them back to us or send them off yourself to Headquarters, shall I put, I'll put those out for anybody who feel they could sell them, it all, it all helps to raise money for Amnesty and helps to get them... erm spend the money on the new prisoner's.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I have a complimentary copy of new internationalist [LAUGHTER] I'm not quite sure why they sent them, but []
[speaker001:] It's on, it's on the right.
[speaker004:] Yes, it's, it's got stuff that we could use that's all.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Er, the news letters we get, monthly news letter for groups, er, this one, which is all about what different groups in Britain are doing, can give you ideas.
[speaker001:] Were not gonna have, were not gonna have quite enough are we this time, I think if perhaps the people who come regularly, erm perhaps could take first, erm I don't know, you, we have ten, is it ten?
[speaker004:] Yeah, and I've taken one.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] They are interesting, I mean then, they're, they're, got quite a lot of information on about what's going on
[speaker004:] Yeah
[speaker001:] within British Section
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] anyway.
[speaker004:] I'll erm, the International news letter which has lots of groups and details about people getting killed. Mm. What's going on [LAUGHTER]. Erm, and then if anyone wants to look at these, look at the er ninety one annual reports Haven't seen them. and these booklets that are.
[speaker001:] Has that recently become ninety one, one?
[speaker004:] No, we had these two meetings ago, but I bring it with me on meetings for anyone who's.
[speaker001:] Yes, and people should tell you if they take it, mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Okay, that's all.
[speaker001:] Right, very good, that's all from Headquarters, right then we move on to then any other business, erm I think mainly it's just the odd verse with arrangements for next meeting, because our next meeting is our own A G M, erm, at, which we erm elect our officers for the next year, er, and there are, are other arrangements to make, erm we sometimes put a little form don't we on the end of the minutes that, people to fill in if they wish to nominate someone, I think we should do that even though very, very rarely gets actually filled in, erm, and we have some post which we have elections for others where we can phone the people who are doing those jobs and, and hope they'll carry on. And I think the, the erm, the jobs which are elected are the Chair Person and, do we still have a Vice Chair Person? are you still Vice Chair Person?
[speaker004:] I.
[speaker001:] Well John and I are both Chair Person, are Co-Chair at the moment, erm
[speaker003:] Yeah, we don't, we don't seem to have a Vice Chairman, looking at last years
[speaker001:] Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps it was because of that we didn't have it, and the treasurer and the secretary are officially erm, and we do have constitution don't we now of course, so we can look at the constitution and see what it says
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] erm, I think what those post were, were erm elected and then the
[speaker004:] Means we've got to produce.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] Right, we, we, we did actually draw, or we not draw, we, we adopted a constitution during the year and the officers that are erm elected are the Chair, the Secretary and the Treasurer, erm and other, together with other such officers, yeah to to determine by general meeting, erm, so it's really only those three, er and we have sometimes had Advice Chair if there's only been one Chairman haven't we, one Chair person erm... so I think people need to say if they don't wish to carry on the jobs they're doing and if anybody wishes to nominate anyone in a particular post then slip at the bottom of the minutes could be filled in and either brought to meeting or sent back to the Secretary. Erm, I think I will give up being Chair this time, I've done it too long, too long, and I've had it John as Co-Chair during the year and I hope that he'll be able to carry on as, as Chair Person, I think really I've done it, done it for long enough erm, and we'll have to ask, we hope, we hope the Treasurer just taken over will carry on
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] erm, and if anybody else has any other post they, they're interesting in doing in taking on or, or would like to help with that could be said as well couldn't it?
[speaker004:] Well are we then not going to have another Co-Chair?
[speaker001:] Well it depends how you want to deal with it, I mean erm, this, the, the, the I think it was just my idea last year of, of sort of erm sharing some of the load I think at that point and hoping that someone could perhaps take over, erm, this just says the following should be elected, A, Chair, B, Secretary and C, Treasurer, but erm
[speaker003:] Well, I, will, you know, I mean, will carry on as Chairman, but I, I'd welcome competition in the post if anyone's interested
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] but, it's unfair saying that I erm, I, continue in my inefficient way if you're all willing to put up with me.
[speaker001:] I think if, if you are going to be the only Chair Person then there should be a, there, there should be a, a Deputy so if you're not able to take the chair, there is somebody else.
[speaker003:] Perhaps, yeah, yeah, yeah, erm
[speaker001:] Somebody could perhaps sat and
[speaker003:] Perhaps that's that's a good idea.
[speaker001:] that, that person ought to be elected as well.
[speaker003:] Mm, what under, that'll be a what Vice Chairman or
[speaker001:] Well was to be Chairman, was to be Vice Chair now under these this new.
[speaker004:] Is it in the constitution?
[speaker001:] It isn't in the constitution, no.
[speaker003:] No it isn't is it?
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] No, but you
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Not, not very good at drawing up constitutions are we?
[speaker001:] It does actually say together with other said officers and committee members as shall be determined by a general meeting, so if we wish to elect or choose somebody else we can do. Erm, but there's be a good idea to have
[speaker003:] She's taken someone's.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker001:] Well I think, we'll, we'll see what, we'll see what comes, if somebody else wishes to compete, compete for the Chair, the post of Chair, erm, then you may perhaps like to invite them to share the Chair with you, or, or, they can become the, the Vice Chair.
[speaker003:] Erm, erm, only too willing to welcome competition cos they're all to aware of my short comings, mm.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Erm, so.
[speaker001:] Well, if, if there isn't anybody else who wishes to... compete with you for the Chair, er, then I think there ought to be a Vice Chair.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right. Now the other thing about, about the meeting is erm, we sometimes arrange for sort of special refreshments or something different in that line, it's at Ann's house, erm do you want, do you want us to do anything about that Ann or?
[speaker006:] Yeah, interested in any spare wine glasses please.
[speaker004:] Sorry?
[speaker001:] Bring some spare wine glasses, I've, I've got some wine glasses.
[speaker004:] Wine glasses
[speaker001:] What we have, wine and soft drinks and
[speaker004:] What you want six? Cheese and biscuits?
[speaker001:] A little bit of that yes, to have afterwards mm?
[speaker004:] . Cracker wheat.
[speaker001:] Cheese...
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Cheese and biscuits, she's saying. What do, do you want help with that Ann, would you like people to bring some or, or, or what?
[speaker006:] .
[speaker001:] Mm, well confir you can confirm with Mary, I think Mary's offer to possibly. Shall I, shall I leave you and Mary to sort that out?
[speaker006:] Okay.
[speaker001:] Between you, mm, mm.
[speaker004:] What date is it?.
[speaker001:] I'm not sure what date it is, I haven't got it on here have we really.
[speaker004:] Is it the tenth? No the eleventh. The tenth.
[speaker001:] Yes, it's not going to be the same day because it's a leap year.
[speaker004:] It's the tenth then.
[speaker001:] So it'll be what, what did we say the tenth what did we?
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] Tenth of March.
[speaker001:] Tenth of March.
[speaker004:] Where's that then?
[speaker001:] That'll be at erm... Ann I've forgotten your number.
[speaker006:] .
[speaker001:] That's fine, what's the address?
[speaker006:] Oh sorry [LAUGHTER], ninety four.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] Is this all. Oh yeah. Yeah..
[speaker002:] Get rid of that on tape, yeah, we won't be transcribed.
[speaker004:] Why you writing it down for?
[speaker002:] So, that the next meeting.
[speaker001:] Right, that's, good, that's it [LAUGHTER], without, without your tape recorder.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Right, erm, so, now that's, that's er the A G M, now erm, any other business?
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Right, let see, erm, er, who's got their notes? Ann, did you say yes?
[speaker006:] I said yes.
[speaker001:] Right, Ann, you gonna start?
[speaker006:] Well, this, I told you about this French boy that phoned, that contacted me, he's erm, [reading] my name is, I'm nineteen, I'm a student at Harlow College, I'm studying English foreign language and Law A Level, if there's an Amnesty International I would like to set up a group in the college... I hope you're involved in local groups are writing you to receive about me, and information about the local group []. So I... well... I sent him er our sheets, er sheet about the group and the minutes and er I contacted Michael er, who said he'll be very happy to help in, so I er phoned up this chap and said, gave him Michael's number and said erm he'd like to come to this meeting tonight, he said yes, so I went to pick him up and I just couldn't find that blinking house, anyone who knows Harlow, he's in Parsonage Leys, I just couldn't find the number it was, I just couldn't find anything less than thirty seven
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker006:] and I had, got pick up two so I, I just had to give up, I phoned him up when I got here, apologise, he hasn't been in touch with Michael yet, I don't know why not, er, though why, er sorry
[speaker002:] Erm, there used to be. Sorry, there used to be a group at the College I think.
[speaker004:] Yes, yes.
[speaker006:] Well there used to be that's right, with you John, talking about college group just about that time.
[speaker003:] Erm... yes and it's, it's funny thing I haven't sent things to the College with, with the other stuff that went out, but, er we have, I have spoken to Michael about College, yeah I mean.
[speaker001:] So we didn't, yeah well if we've got someone's who's interested in starting a group, that's the time which to start, we did, yeah, but there was a group, er previous thing but I think that, there was one girl who was very er keen, but I think when she left it probably lapsed.
[speaker003:] Mm,
[speaker004:] But.
[speaker003:] yeah, yeah, I did, did discuss it with Michael, I'd forgotten that, I just remembered now.
[speaker006:] Maybe, maybe I don't know if he's shy or anything, why he hasn't phoned up Michael yet, perhaps I ought to ask Michael to phone him then, he does, yes.
[speaker001:] Maybe, yes, we have, we have approved school or er student group officer so we should perhaps let him you know, perhaps we should, perhaps we should come back to him or Michael could.
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Well, shouldn't, shall I
[speaker001:] Should imagine, mm.
[speaker003:] take that number from you, cos I'll, I'm probably going, probably be seeing Michael this week,.
[speaker006:] Do you want the letter?.
[speaker003:] Yes, okay.
[speaker001:] Right, that's fine, well I, that would be very good if there was a group at the coll at the coll at the college, there ought to be one at the college
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] of all, of all the
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] you know.
[speaker006:] Oh, he's only, he's only there till September till
[speaker001:] Oh, great.
[speaker006:] he's only there till the Summer, by the way.
[speaker001:] Yes, well perhaps we could get it going quickly then
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Right, erm, now, er, do you want to say something?
[speaker004:] I did, yes, erm, when erm, we thought our prisoner was finished the co-ordinators wrote to me and said would I be interested, would our group be interested in erm, writing to Yugoslavia's still, because with the Civil War going on there's lots of cases coming up, for example there was a whole hospital full of patients that were taken prisoner... I don't know if they were actually physically removed or whether they were held in the hospital without access to medical treatment for something like ten days, and erm, Saria did say she'd help me last time and I wrote back and said yes, two of us could write once a month, well they're taken that very liberally [LAUGHTER] and, and, got two or three things from the already and erm, if anyone else is interested in writing an odd letter say once a month to Yugoslavia maybe they could erm, let me know later on..
[speaker001:] Good, that's fine, right, any other business?
[speaker004:] Shall we have just a quick Lisa and Dean want to tell us what's going, cos they've had you, had the first meeting now, haven't you? Do you want to tell us what interest there was.
[speaker003:] I, I was about to ask the same thing, yeah.
[speaker004:] Are you going to, interest.
[speaker006:] Well I called a meeting but I didn't think I advertised it well enough because there was a lot of interest and then I think we held it at the wrong time as well didn't we,
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker006:] we held it after prep, so we've organised another one for tomorrow lunch time and erm... and lot more people express interest because of that, we haven't actually got any letters yet.
[speaker005:] No, that's so when we leave there should be more interest.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm, good, good.
[speaker006:] And I'm intending to, to hold a few more assemblies as well to sort of get interest going again because it's been a while since we did an assembly on it, so if we do another one, that usually gets it going again doesn't it?
[speaker003:] What you run assembly's with on, particular topic then.
[speaker006:] Yeah, well we'll take erm Michael gave us say erm a, an assembly sheet didn't he and we just read from that, and that got a lot of interest from that.
[speaker005:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Mm, good...
[speaker004:] How many teams were suppose to meet out of that?
[speaker006:] It was about twelve people.
[speaker004:] How many is that? [LAUGHTER].
[speaker006:] There were a lot more people than that.
[speaker005:] That was last week.
[speaker004:] I was gonna say, there were a lot more people when we went to school.
[speaker006:] There are a lot more people than that, there, I only put one advert.
[speaker003:] Well that's, that's, lot more people who are interested.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker003:] Even so, that tell us.
[speaker004:] Ah right, well yeah, I suppose
[speaker003:] Advertise in Stortford
[speaker004:] Twelve is a working number. [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker001:] Oh well I hope, I hope it goes right tomorrow.
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes, good, good, just keep in touch with us and know how things are going.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Are you, you keen to keep in touch keep, keep coming to the meetings or?
[speaker006:] Yeah, mm, mm. Yeah.
[speaker003:] You found it's contact, yeah, good, erm
[speaker001:] Right, now, erm
[speaker003:] smashing.
[speaker001:] anything else you want to bring up?
[speaker003:] Erm.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right, Rose, next leave your bit.
[speaker003:] Oh, I, I got something right come on.
[speaker001:] Go on Rose.
[speaker004:] Yes, I had a request from speaker at Birchwood High School and have a name of somebody there, I think it's a teacher or pupil but A lot of people would say. Did you send it out to them Rose? you know when we did that.
[speaker003:] Yeah, I think I do, yeah Birchwood.
[speaker001:] That was Margaret Dane, what it was, yes.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] the name of the person is Linda... er
[speaker003:] What, what, was it a request for a speaker?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah, right why have they sent that to you?
[speaker004:] Yeah, cos Michael's name went off to that batch that was sent out. You know there,, I, I wasn't actually in, but that was the message I got so.
[speaker001:] Cos you see, perhaps it didn't get to that teacher, you see, that's what happens, the letters don't always get to the right people.
[speaker004:] Yeah, mm
[speaker001:] Although
[speaker003:] What's the name?
[speaker004:] Linda.
[speaker003:] Mm, I've got a Mr, head of Humanities Mr I. There we go, so who, who is, this person is I don't know, that's their name I have now, that's a.
[speaker004:] Yeah,.
[speaker001:] So that'll be a speaker day.
[speaker003:] Okay.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] Will, will you follow that up?
[speaker001:] You, you've got the name of the person have you?
[speaker003:] Erm, shout that out again and
[speaker004:] Erm, Birchwood high school.
[speaker003:] No, the, the, I've got all that
[speaker004:] Linda
[speaker003:] Linda, yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes, it'll be worth following that up, cos that's, that's one of the erm, they, they've done quite a lot of work of Amnesty and general studies in the past, there was a sheet of sort of quotes of, how good the Amnesty was, and there was one from the teacher at Birchwood or what, what's Margaret Dane School, so erm, yes, if, if you could definitely follow that up erm John
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] cos that'll be a very useful school to have interest.
[speaker003:] Erm.
[speaker004:] Erm I also have a letter er from a Kate, I'm not sure from which school she goes to, but she's fourteen and she's going to one of the local schools,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] but, erm, she was hoping to come to the meeting this evening, but she phoned at the last minute and said she couldn't make it, but erm, I don't know if it would be more appropriate perhaps for the schools groups to get in touch with her and I Did she leave her name and. Er, yes, but I, it's at home.
[speaker001:] Yes, could you, perhaps you could find out which school she's at
[speaker004:] Yes, okay.
[speaker001:] Erm.
[speaker004:] could give her a ring, find out what school she's at and then
[speaker001:] And then if, if it's fine with her, we'd have some, well you'd let you know, contact
[speaker003:] , what's the time.
[speaker004:] Alright, yeah, okay.
[speaker003:] Right.
[speaker001:] Because it's, I mean... it would be very good if we could have several schools
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] interested. Er... have you got, all these people waiting to be told.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] Right, I hope, we won't be to long now, perhaps if we could just bring up the item you wanted to mention.
[speaker003:] Yeah, erm, right, yeah, that's all the other items, erm... what's been er been going through my head recently is, is er the, looking at the pattern of the meetings and the way the meetings are arranged and, and how, erm, at the last meeting we had a speaker er and that I think, we all found that quite interesting and the one, one from Central America that things and I feel we ought to have that much more frequently than we do have er, a, either a speaker or a focus of some sort of meetings erm, so I think that's something I'd like to raise and get the A G M at the next meeting I think similar thing we ought to consider there. Erm, quite how we arrange cos this, as Margaret says there's a lot of business to get through on occasions, but er, this, this meeting seems to had a lot, but, you know, er whether we could alternate er a business meeting with a, a, a speaker so I thought functional meeting every two months and a speaker attending er, er the other month, erm, I'm really sussing it open for ideas, what, what do other people feel and
[speaker004:] Maybe we should have speaker on a separate night.
[speaker003:] mm, well, this, or is everybody happy with the, the format as it is? er.
[speaker004:] Is it not but er
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Speaker's a very good idea, but difficult to organise,
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] I think a, every so often it'll be very interesting, very sort of, we did try this once didn't we?
[speaker004:] This, this has cropped up before, oh yes this idea of trying to change this.
[speaker003:] Michael, Michael started the ball rolling in my mind, er, yes he, he, I, one thing erm yesterday, erm one thing he, he started to coming to more meetings last year and erm I think he'd seen one or two people come along and not,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] a couple of new people come along and then, not, not follow up
[speaker001:] Yes, there can be.
[speaker003:] mm, erm, and he wh you know he is thinking well is this, is that the reason erm, so er, I don't know, you know, er, I, I think perhaps it's worth looking at, perhaps we can all thing about it and have a look at it at the A G M.
[speaker001:] I think, I think it would be a good idea to have, as every sort of maybe every two or three meetings to have something a bit different erm, and we do, we do find if we want to get through the business quickly
[speaker004:] We can.
[speaker001:] we can, we can.
[speaker004:] We can.
[speaker003:] pressure.
[speaker001:] We can do, we've just got to, I mean we've just got to ask everyone to give a very brief report erm on another occasion and then it can be kept very short, I think though, there are, there are times when, when, you know, we do want to hear what's going on with sort of er networks and campaigns, we do need that time as well don't we, er so we can't, I don't think we can always do it.
[speaker003:] Well I'm, yeah, ern I wondered about sort of Executive Committee and er, I know you're not very keen on that idea and it, it does tend to remove information from the ordinary members, if, if, you have a small group of people dealing with the business and, a, a separate lead.
[speaker004:] We have had that in the past haven't we? We
[speaker001:] I can't remember.
[speaker004:] Remember we used to have a prisoner group didn't we, when I first came so that the
[speaker001:] What groups, yeah groups for particular things on, on the, you know like campaigns or prisoners there were special groups dealing only with this those, they met on there own, not there weren't any
[speaker003:] Schools groups.
[speaker001:] yes, the schools group, yes, I mean, that, that could operate more, in fact we could have, instead of having just talking about the, about the India one, er instead of having one person at it, it could be a group of, of three perhaps, er.
[speaker004:] But then they'd still presumably report back to the main group about what they'd been doing.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Yes. So you're really, in a way, you're not much difference than where you started.
[speaker003:] I think Margaret's right, if, if we really want to get through the business we can and however busy we are, erm.
[speaker001:] I wouldn't we wouldn't to every time, but I mean it can be, it can be just a very brief report on what's happened, you know, if we want to get through.
[speaker004:] If we said, like, if we, every second month say or every third month, then we, we knew we were going to have a speaker, we could the time before we could then do the business more thoroughly and carefully so that the month of the speaker we could just go through it very quickly. . Alternatively to, alternative to, to speaker, can we get erm, you know, brief films about different countries and, political systems and so on.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Yes, yes we have the video too, we have, we have the erm the Amnesty video and we, there are, there are schools videos to.
[speaker004:] Do, do, do they do different videos for different countries?
[speaker001:] Not, they're not, no, the one I've, the one the group has is, is a general one it's on Amnesty's work.
[speaker004:] Oh, I see.
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah, there probably are ones on different countries. I'm not sure that Amnesty does produce on, on, one particular country.
[speaker003:] erm, we have.
[speaker004:] other organisations that
[speaker001:] Yes they might, yes, mm.
[speaker004:] Though even that's the sort of thing that on T V that er
[speaker001:] We can video ourselves.
[speaker004:] that's right.
[speaker001:] Mm,, mm.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes, there are a lot, mm
[speaker003:] There's all these workshops Margaret.
[speaker001:] Yes, I, I, I have about twelve workshops.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] On all kinds of things.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] On all kinds of things, yes.
[speaker004:] I enjoyed that very much that last one.
[speaker001:] What was that one? What was that one?
[speaker004:] it was about death penalty wasn't it? .
[speaker001:] there's all sorts like, like recruiting, making contact with the schools, er, lobbying, er, there, there about ten or twelve different workshops now, almost on almost every aspects, so and that would be something that we could give, if, if these weren't.
[speaker004:] But there has to be one guarantee in because I think once we had rather good one, about six people kept, you can never tell how many come, I mean you'd want maybe bigger, more than, more space in this room.
[speaker001:] Well, we've, have got another room maybe we might sometimes be able to use haven't we?
[speaker004:] Well we could use the.
[speaker001:] Or your dining room, yes.
[speaker004:] it's probably better that
[speaker001:] Mm, we often need to use one more than one room for those.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Though we do seem to be doing quite well in numbers.
[speaker004:] Yes, we have lately, yes.
[speaker003:] Better than last year.
[speaker001:] That suddenly, I mean it means you divide into smaller groups quite often, and, and have discussions on you can, yeah..
[speaker004:] Speak on what you've got.
[speaker001:] No, might be my speech, do we need a, meet, meet in a more public place, erm.
[speaker004:] No, no, we can't. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] But you, erm
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Yes, yes, you, you.
[speaker004:] Erm, your business would take care of itself if we have that pressure of booking it,. I honestly think it would. I think if anything, I'm sure it would. Yeah, mm, sure. I think. I'm sure that it would... make us more careful the months before.
[speaker001:] Mm, mm.
[speaker004:] Right, going on the streets think it would, going to find that many people that, that could speak to
[speaker003:] That was
[speaker004:] erm, sort of relative.
[speaker003:] Yeah, that, that needs something if you actually set up a system and then a business meeting one month and a speaker the next, it puts a lot of pressure on one of us or some of us to, to, erm, this is true.
[speaker001:] Maybe, maybe, maybe if, I think it sounds as if people would, would like that, you know, at least every few months perhaps to have something different
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] maybe, maybe, people could just be thinking or, you know if they hear of somebody who might be able to come and give a talk like your friend who, who was very good, erm, you know, we could make a note of it and, or ask people, you know, could talk to talk or something that sort. Mm, mm, that sounds a possibility, I think, I think it is interesting to have someone like that you know
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Like we had you know, who could talk about experiences you know, in a, in a particular country where there are human rights and problems, good. Right erm, so that's it, is that all the
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] business? Yes, just, just, remind people the next, the next meeting erm, is Tuesday the tenth of March, we always meet on a Tuesday evening and it will be at Ann's house in Harlow, which is, said on the tape [LAUGHTER]. Must be of benefit.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] Right, er, people can take what bits from tables they want them, or, I've got s, I've got one put out, erm, shall we open that door a bit, it's getting a bit hot in here, erm, don't know if Mary wants any help out there. Good.

[speaker001:] Right erm... yeah... look at the congress. Just wanna wrap this up now... erm by bringing in the erm example of Greece. Er the er er... Greek revolt. Erm... just to recap on that slightly. It started round about eighteen twenty one although actually there there'd been erm er simmering discontent in the... amongst the... Christians in the Balkan area for some time. We we needn't worry too much that thought but erm the Greek revolt itself in eighteen twenty to one to round about eighteen twenty five... had gone on without any European intervention. To some extent... this was due to the influence of the er of of. Erm... who was able to hold er the Russians back from intervening on the grounds that it would be er seen as intervention in a er in in in a revolt. Erm... the revolt is of course essentially a nationalist revolt. I suppose there are liberal overtones in it but it's essentially a nationalist revolt. After eighteen twenty five of course erm the death of Alexandria especially of Nicholas... Russia is more inclined to intervene especially as the Greek rebels are being defeated because of the mention the intervention of... of erm Turkey's ally erm er Egypt... Egypt a a a a problem for the Turkish empire. The ruler of Egypt Mohammed Ali intervened in the revolt on behalf of Turkey with the promise of... territory in the area. Erm... and the revolt begins to er er er crumble. Erm... so Russia decides to intervene and at this point... erm... is especially concern of Britain. And the upshot is that in eighteen twenty six... Britain suggests in essence holding a congress to discuss the er er Greek revolt. Erm Britain and France are very concerned about the prospect of Russian intervention.... Erm... And in essence a kind of congress is held at St Petersburg. It's not trotted out in the old history books as one of the conferences, or one of the congresses rather. In fact it's, it's more often referred to correctly as a conference. Erm it consisted of the ambassadors of the great, of the, of of the great powers erm er meeting together... at St Petersburg. Erm... it's... there's a certain irony about all this.... As we know erm Canning had... to a great extent welcomed the end of the congress system. His famous comment about things are back to as they should be... every nation for herself and god for us all. Erm... but in twenty six he in a sense does a U turn. And he's concerned to get great power co-operation... to solve the Greek er er problem. The other irony is of course that up until at the previous congresses like Verona erm... Britain hadn't attended. At this one Austria doesn't attend. And same, well and and Prussia as well for that matter but they're not so, so important. At this conference the great powers involved are Britain, Russia and France.... Of course the other irony as well is that the powers that meet at the conference at St Petersburg... er the powers decide they will intervene in Greece. And they're intervening of course here on the side of a revolt which is... going against the grain of erm of... certainly for Russia of course of er of of the attitudes of the eighteen erm... er eighteen teens early eighteen twenties.... The idea was basically to produce some kind of semi-independent Greece. Er... of course as we know or we might, some of us might know from er Brit. his. that erm from British History that erm in eighteen er... erm the Turks refused to co-operate in this. And erm in when was it eighteen twenty seven at the Battle of Navareno the British navy sunk the Turkish fleet. Erm thus to a great extent erm ending the erm er... the prospects of Turkish success.
[speaker002:] What what was that battle again?
[speaker001:] Navareno. Navar Avokea or Navareno Bay erm... it's more, I think it's more technically known as Avokea... See if they've got a reference to the. Oops.... Oh no it is Nav I'm I'm sorry. I'm confused aren't I? It is Navareno.... Yeah erm... again you needn't worry too much about the er erm about the... ramifications of this Kenning died in twenty seven and Britain to some extent disentangled herself from the Greek revolt but the upshot was that in eighteen thirty Greece became an independent state. Her independence guaranteed by Britain, Russia... and France.... Okay erm... I suppose we ought to mention in this context as well er Belgium.... I'll probably refer to it again later on. Er in Belgium of course in eighteen thirty erm a nationalist revolt broke out... in response really to the French revolution of that year. Which we'll be looking at briefly in a sec. Erm... this was a direct challenge to the Vienna settlement of course. As we know at the Vienna settlement, Belgium was put under er er er er essentially under Dutch rule.... Erm Britain and France were prepared to defend Belgian independence. The other powers were er at odds with Britain and France... ie Austria, Russia... Prussia. So again we see a split... in the er in in in amongst the great powers. What?
[speaker003:] I just
[speaker001:] It's Britain and France were prepared to support Belgian independence. Erm Russia, Prussia... Austria not. And we are seeing in eighteen thirty... a significant gap between on the one hand erm... the western powers and on the other hand the east european or the central and eastern european powers.... In eighteen thirty of course, the east european powers were unable erm er to intervene. Er Russia had erm a revolt in Poland to face. Austria faced disturbances in Italy.... Prussia of course couldn't really act by herself. But we are seeing a widening gap.... And indeed erm in the eighteen thirties we see the formation in the west of the so called quadruple alliance not to be confused with the great quadruple alliance of eighteen er thirteen. The quadruple alliance consisted of Britain, France, Spain and Portugal which had by now got... sort of liberal constitutional governments. Well it's erm it's erm... it's about, I think it's about eighteen thirty three thirty four. Doesn't really matter. It's the earliest, er early eighteen thirties. And on the other hand, Austria, Russia and er Prussia... it's Munchengratz isn't it. forgetting me er me Munchen... Yep.... In fact they may even have a date for you here. Yeah eighteen thirty three Munchengratz.... It's an agreement... to defend each other against the threat of revolution.... Yep. Erm... So we are seeing by er the early eighteen thirties something of a formalized split between the er... er the powers of er... the quadruple and then the er quintsimple erm er alliance. I'm referring obviously to the quadruple alliance of eighteen er er fifteen.... Okay perhaps we can er er wrap a few things up on the erm on the er Vienna er settlement and the congress system itself.
[speaker003:] What actually happened in Belgium?
[speaker001:] Belgium became independent. Sorry yeah. Belgium became independent. Erm it's ind, it's independence was recognized fully by all the major European powers by eighteen thirty nine.... It was regarded as erm it was one of Palmerston's, one of Palmerston's great triumphs wasn't it?... Isn't it the case that Palmerston when he was on his death bed had the clause to the Belgian treaty read to him to cheer him up.... Okay erm... let's perhaps make a few comments then about the Vienna settlement... itself.... The old er the old kind of chestnut question... is was it a success or a failure? I I I'd say with the, with the revamped exam you're not likely, you're not likely to get a question like that. Was Vienna successful? But you're gonna get a much wider question if it comes up on this and erm perhaps in incorporating the congress system but let's approach it from that, that perspective anyway.... I think the best way of looking at this... is to kind of take an open-ended version of what the Vienna settlement is all about. Er not just the treaty... in eighteen fifteen but the whole congress system erm... after eighteen fifteen onwards and into the eighteen twenties and such like.... Erm... I suppose the er... the classic interpretation of the er the Vienna settlements is that erm... in... in the nineteenth century was that it was a failure and there was a, there was a kind of er consensus... beginning quite early actually. There's a kind of consensus view that in the language of ten sixty six and all that the Vienna settlement was a bad thing. Erm and I say this view is, is in some respects being er erm er expressed relatively early on. Erm and you even get it associated with leading rulers or states er statesmen of the day. For instance erm... somebody like Napoleon the Third. He emerged as president of France as Prince Louis Napoleon in eighteen forty eight and he er he erm achieves power by coup d'etat and becomes... emperor in eighteen fifty two. Napoleon the Third is someone who's er who sees it as one of his objectives to undo the Vienna settlement.... Erm and you've got other leading figures of the day.... Count Cavor prime minister of Piedmont in eighteen er fifty. Erm and someone who's described as perhaps one of the architects of Italian unity. He becomes the prime minister of... of a relatively united Italy erm in eighteen er eighteen sixty. Cavor is someone who's er Right.... Cavor is someone who's hostile... er to the Vienna settlement. Let alone of course large numbers of liberal stroke nationalist erm revolutionaries within Europe in the eighteen er twenties, thirties and forties. The various national secret societies and various nationalist movements like er Young Italy and... there's even one called Young Europe which is kind of a pretty, pretty much catch-all one. But the various nationalist societies or the revolutionary... purpose. They're all hostile to the Vienna settlement. And that perhaps er having mentioned the nationalist erm societies this perhaps gives us a clue to it. The the view was taken... that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism and nationalism.... That was the view taken that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism. It was hostile to nationalism.... And therefore it was wrong... because the argument goes that liberalism and nationalism are the great triumphant er ideologies of the nineteenth century and the Vienna settlement's not only wrong, but it was historically erm in a sense doomed because it was trying to oppose the growing erm unstoppable er ideologies of er erm of er of Europe.... By the way erm it's always rather amusing when you see in the old history books the er the idea that erm... that, to give an example, somebody like Metternich. You get the old idea that Metternich ignored liberalism and nationalism. Erm... that's a very, a very misleading way of putting it. Metternich in many ways thought of little else except liberalism and nationalism. The Vienna settlement didn't ignore liberalism and nationalism. It tried its best to clobber it. It tried its best to actually er suppress it.... And don't forget... erm perhaps we ought to say a word on the er on the conservative's side here. Erm don't forget it's people like Metternich and indeed Castlereagh and the other erm er figures at the Vienna settlement. They were looking back in eighteen fifteen... at twenty odd years of war and revolution. And if that was... you know you could, I supp, you could argue that the French revolution had been built on notions of liberalism and it had encouraged nationalism in Europe. And therefore you could associate liberalism and nationalism with war, terror erm... and perhaps therefore it wasn't all that desirable.... Obviously as well in Metternich's er er, in Metternich's case... nationalism would be the end of the Austrian empire. Because the Austrian empire, the Habsburg empire was a conglomeration of large numbers of different nationalities.... Nationalism affected other great powers as well. Erm Russia... Russia in eighteen fifteen grabbed Poland. Prussia had, still had chunks of Polish territory... little bits of it.... Prussia of course more especially... more especially Prussia feared a united Germany. If you brought, if you got a united Germany then Prussia would simply be a small part of that united Germany. So it's important to note that nationalism... the prospect of nationalism... was seen as undesirable by the er... major European powers. It didn't... nationalism had no erm wouldn't affect France as such.... Didn't affect Britain. Well it affected Ireland. There was always the problem of Ireland. I think it's a bit wrong perhaps to say it didn't affect Britain. Perhaps it didn't affect Britain at this time. But as we know from British history one of the understated reasons why erm there was a lot of hostility to home rule for Ireland in Britain was because of the fear of the creation of a hostile state er erm off, off Britain's shore.... Erm... so that's one aspect of Vienna. It was seen as being opposed to liberalism, as opposed to nationalism and perhaps there were, there were er, there were, there were good reasons er for that.... By the way erm are we relatively clear what's meant by liberalism and nationalism within this context?... Should I perhaps digress and say a little word erm er about this? Perhaps I will.... It's perhaps of some interest to us that erm these to great -isms, liberalism and nationalism... I think we can see them as products of the French revolution. Or indeed products of perhaps... enlightened attitudes, certainly with the case of liberalism.... In a sense, if we think of the context of say the late... eighteenth early nineteenth century... perhaps more, perhaps more specifically we think of the er, of the er... erm early nineteenth century. Liberalism and nationalism are seen as two sides of the same coin. They were seen as inextricably bound up. Erm all liberals were nationalists. And to er, I suppose by and large, vice versa as well.... Erm as I've said the er the the two er known as the two -isms. The two ideologies are by and large products of the revolution or in the case of liberalism perhaps of the... of enlightened attitudes. By liberalism... liberalism meant a number of things. It meant primarily constitutional government.... It meant primarily constitutional government. Written constitutional government. Liberalism.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[speaker001:] It meant by and large constitut, it meant, it meant primarily rather constitutional government. Liberals would look to for instance the con the United States' Constitution. They would look to the er er to the constitution of of of France in say seventeen ninety one or the more radicals amongst them would look erm... the more er the more radical liberal if that's not er, if that's not a, not a contradiction in terms, don't think it is. They would look to the constitution of eighteen, of seventeen ninety three. Others, other in nineteenth century Europe looked to the constitutions granted in eighteen twelve for instance in Spain and in Naples. These aren't er er er... they tend to be a bit ignored in history, these. But they're of interest. In eighteen, in in late eighteen twelve... erm with the prospect perhaps of Napoleonic rule in difficulties... you see in some of Napoleon's, some of the client states of... Napoleonic Europe... Spain, Naples... you see constitutions being granted... which are are pretty democratic actually. And th the they're looked to by er European liberals as... as model constitutions.... When you get a revolt in Spain... in the eighteen twenties.... What is the revolt in favour of? The revolt is in favour of the constitution of eighteen twelve.... So they believe in constitutional governments. Erm now obviously... in the context of constitutional governments... it's not, one can imagine having a constitutional form of government without, without a parliamentary system but erm it's perhaps a bit of a stretch of the imagination. But they mean by, erm constitutional government they also er er liberals also believed in the notion of parliamentary government.... It's very much connected to... late enlightenment notions that the only valid government would be representative government.... Other forms of government are in a sense illegitimate. Absolute rule. Monarchical rule. Well not necessarily, I mean, unless the monarch was was was er, was part of the constitutional set up. But representative government was the only really legitimate form of government. Of course, there was debate amongst liberals on how much representation there would be.... Or to put it, erm erm... erm more simplistically... how, how many people would have the vote.... Erm we see this within the context of the reform movement in Britain... after eighteen fifteen. Where you've got reformers ranging from those who want the household suffrage er household suffrage. A vote to all householders. Across to those who wanted erm erm a universal male suffrage. Erm one man one vote.... Erm European liberalism... is based upon, is based upon context as well of secularism. Or to perhaps er put it more... to put it, to make it more erm obvious... anti-clericalism.... This didn't necessarily mean hostility to religion as such. But the notion of secularism, the notion of anti-clericalism meant that within the liberal states erm the er... er there would be a separation of church and state. Erm the church would have no... role within the state as being say in a erm erm... in other words there would be erm... the catholic church in in erm... in say er a state like France... er should not be the established church. There would be a separation of church and state. And by and large the activities of church and state would be separatist. The church would play no role in the affairs of state.... Erm... Other notions erm of liberalism of course again which are perhaps pretty obvious... freedom of speech... and implied in that freedom of religion, freedom of expression, that kind of thing.... But in essence they're the main er er the main... aspects of er of of er what was meant by liberalism in the er in in er the nineteenth century. Erm... it perhaps doesn't strike us as being very revolutionary but of course it depends from the context that you're in erm to perhaps some of the absolute rulers of er... of er perhaps, this was revolutionary. Erm... What about nationalism?... Nationalism... we perhaps some of the er er some of the erm concepts of nationalism appearing even before the French revolution. You begin to see er in erm in parts of Europe in the er later eighteenth century a growing emphasis upon er er upon language, literature of of certain areas. I'm thinking of Italy here primarily. Erm... as it develops under the impact of the French revolution and Napoleonic rule and then later... what nationalism came to be seen as... it's the basically the idea that erm... that people of a common... culture... history... and language... should occupy... perhaps that's the wrong word. Er should er... should have a separate state. Should not be ruled by a foreign power. So a people with a common culture, history, language... should live in a separately defined state.... And certainly should not live under the rule of a foreign er power.... And our classic examples of course there... erm of of of this situation in in post eighteen fifteen Europe are Germany, Italy... Poland.... Now I've... I've suggested... that... erm in the early nineteenth century, liberalism and nationalism are very much bound up. Er all, all nationalists in a sense are liberals, or liberals are nationalists. One aspect of this of course, one reason er er behind this is is the French revolution. Let's not forget that erm under Napoleonic rule you do see the creation of a so-called king of Italy. It's northern Italy. Erm Napoleon happens to be it's king and and it is very much a client of France. We see the creation of of... of the confederation of the Rhine. A a kind of erm united Germany. Erm... within, in these states as well you,th the the nationalism of them, although it's in the French... direction. It's associated as well with the ideology of Napoleonic France. Erm... which does imply an attack on the old feudal regimes er er er previously existing. Erm... so after eighteen fifteen there is this... link between liberalism and nationalism.... I don't wanna go much er er further ahead on this for the moment. We do tend to see... liberalism and nationalism parting company.... Especially after eighteen forty eight.... And as ag I will, I'll be returning to this obviously in consideration of Italy and Germany, but it is perhaps worth making this point now. You do see liberalism and nationalism parting company. Erm and you do get this growing awareness that not all of that... while all liberals might be nationalists. All right thinking liberals in Europe from Gladstone in England... you know. All right thinking liberals support nationalist aspirations. Gladstone a great advocate of Italian unity for instance. Gladstone an advocate of er of of Balkan nationalism. He wanted Turkey out of the Balkan er er out of south eastern Europe. So all good European liberals are nationalists. It starts to become apparent, very very clear... that not all nationalists are good liberals. In fact far from it.... Erm if the choice is between... securing er your er... securing your own state. Securing the nationalist goal and ignoring the liberal goal, many nationalists will go for the nationalist goal. If the price of bringing about your united state... is the dumping of liberals, then so be it. In that sense nationalism of course er... it perhaps becomes a more... dynamic and problematic ideology in nineteenth century Europe.... So I I've digressed er from er considering what erm erm er what this has got to do with the er erm... congress of Vienna but I think it's er hopefully er er a worthwhile erm er digression. Erm... let me turn er briefly to the... those who have something good to say about the Vienna settlement.... It's had it's supporters er one is always reminded that one of it's key supporters, the former American er er secretary of state and and at the moment, globe-trotting world expert er... Henry Kissinger. Kissinger erm who began life as a er er as professor of history. His first major work was a defence of the Vienna settlement.... Erm and it it it, it has been defended on a number of grounds.... It's been argued by it's supporters... that it ushered in an era of peace.... Erm... At it's most extreme interpretation... there's an argument that erm, that the Vienna settlement was a factor... in maintaining peace in Europe between eighteen fifteen and nineteen fourteen. Because it's extreme supporters suggest that that it wasn't until nineteen fourteen that a war broke out involving all the great European powers.... Erm one would argue that's er that's er, that's an extreme erm er... view.... Erm there are wars in Europe after eighteen fifteen. And some people might argue the Vienna settlement was a factor in bringing about some of these wars. So it's again, unfortunately it's... it comes down in one of these erm pays your money takes your choice erm er arguments. But it is worth making the point that for instance if we take a look after eighteen fifteen of, at the wars. There's war between Russia and Turkey in er eighteen er thirty... when Russia militarily intervenes in the Turkish revolt.... Of course there's the war war between Russia and Turkey as well in the in in in the eighteen seventies.... But for the moment I'm... just looking perhaps nearer to the Vienna settlement itself.... Erm... there's war between er... you get the Crimean war... between Russia on the one hand and Great Britain and France on the other. And... it's always worth remembering about the Crimean erm episode that Austria... in essence intervenes on the side... er er intervenes not so much on the side of Britain and France but against Russia. Austria played a decisive though non-military role... in er in in the Vienna, in in, in the er in the Crimean war.... Erm and then we have the so- called nationalist er wars. For instance eighteen sixty four between Denmark... and Prussia and Austria. Technically Prussia and Austria here representing the German confederation. It's a war concerning the vexed and famous Schleswig-Holstein dispute of course which I'm sure we're all familiar with.... The erm... eighteen sixty six... war between Prussia and Austria.... These are, this is the war which essentially brings about German er unity under Prussian erm erm control. Prussia is the victor of course of this war.
[speaker003:] shock win for Prussia.
[speaker001:] Shock win for Prussia! What a kind of er foo... sport's page headline isn't it, yeah? [LAUGHTER]. If what you're suggesting is there was an expectation that Prussia might not win the war. Yeah. And given the fact don't forget, it's always worth remembering this and I've I've made, I'll be making the point later on. Most of the German states supported Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war. Including the states.... Supported Austria sorry. Supported Austria. Not supported Prussia. I think.... Now of course there are the wars for Italian erm er unification. Eighteen fifty nine. A war between Au... between Austria on the one hand and France and technically Piedmont on the other. Although the Piedmontese army didn't arrive until the battles were over [LAUGHTER]. There was war between on the one hand Austria and the other hand France... and Piedmont.... Erm and then of course in a sense almost... bringing these things together... the, the major and perhaps most influential of these er wars. The war between France... what is normally referred to as the Franco-Prussian war. I suppose to be technical it ought to be the er it ought to be referred to as the Franco- German war. It ought to be a war between France and a united Germany. But as it is, it is primarily Prussia that's er... involved. The war between France and Prussia. Eighteen seventy to seventy one.... The argument is, is that okay these are, that certainly erm we see a number of wars in er nineteenth century Europe. But the argument is... well they're not very big wars are they? They're they're short... er wars. They range I mean er the the er... the... er Prussian... Austro-Prussian war of eighteen sixty six is... is referred to as what the six weeks war and and erm the five, five weeks of that or or or whatever... were were involved in peace negotiations. The war itself was just three days. Erm there was only one battle in it you know but... That erm that the war between France and erm and and and Austria was fought in June erm... essentially in June of er of eighteen er fifty nine. They are short wars, the argument is. The same with the Dan Danish Austro. Danish war... the wars in Denmark and Austria and Prussia... one might imagine a rather short- lived er... war.
[speaker003:] How long did it take?
[speaker001:] Well... not very long. I suppose it's erm in in that sense... erm... er I I I I can see what you're, this, I don't think that's a factor in in in the, in the erm... in in the fact that these wars are short. I think these wars are short... because they're fought for limited objectives. They don't tend to escalate. Because the, because only one or two of the powers are involved in them. Or three perhaps in in in... in the Crimea.... Erm... Nevertheless, to some extent the wars reflect the breakdown of the Vienna settlement. So it's a kind of a strange argument to suggest on the one hand the Vienna settlement... was a factor in in preventing wars between all the great, er major war involving all the great powers. Erm... when at the same time the Vienna settlement appears to be crumbling like after er erm after eighteen thirty or something.... Of course erm... it's perhaps, perhaps it's looking slightly to the er historical future it... it's er... it it was bad news in one sense because erm there came to be a view taken in Europe that wars between the great powers would be short, sharp wars. And hence the feeling in nineteen fourteen when the first world war broke out that it would er... all be over by Christmas. Because it, cos people were you know erm as is often said generally of of a... of a general staffs of armies. They're always fighting the previous war. There was this view that the first world war would be rather like a re-run of some of these wars at the end... of the nineteenth century. Erm which... didn't turn out to be the case. Erm... so I would say, I'll just wrap this up erm on on erm on on on this point the er by making... by introducing the fact that some, some historians have argued... that... these wars were short. Okay they had limited objectives. They were correcting the Vienna settlement. That's in a way how you can perhaps square the circle. You can argue these wars were corrective.... Erm... And the other factor that that's introduced as well is that... the powers got into the habit of meeting in congresses. And you do see erm in the nineteenth century... erm the powers still meeting together. For instance at the end of the Crimean war in eighteen fifty six... the peace treaty that's er er that's held is actually a congress. All the powers attended... the eighteen fifty six treaty of Paris. It's not just a... a peace treaty signed by... it's not just, er it's not just a direct signing of a peace treaty between say France... Britain, Russia. It turns into a congress.... The congress of Berlin eighteen seventy eight. When it appears that there might be a major outbreak in erm in in in in south eastern Europe. The powers do perhaps get into the habit of erm of erm... of meeting together. Okay anyway, we'll er... leave it at that then for the moment.

[speaker001:] Yeah erm... the other er... aspect of any discussion of Vienna... is the er, is discussion of the congress system itself.... Erm whether that was a a, a er a success... or failure. Erm... the general response to this is that it was a failure. There's an even more er perhaps er... pertinent er point on this that er... that did it... did the congress system... actually exist in any meaningful way.... Again erm perhaps we ought to refer... one, one of the... still rather good stuff on this is from er, is from Thompson's book. And indeed I see one.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Thompson Nicking books eh? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yes there's... there's a rather good... I was recommending Thompson's book er last week.... Erm it does have a rather good section on the congress system.... And I'll, I will endeavour in, in a second to er find it.... I would say that erm... We could perhaps describe the congress system as a partial success. A partial success.... It helped to keep the peace.... So in that sense again in the language of of the old old ten sixty six and all that it was a good thing.... However... you see a tendency in... erm after eighteen eighteen... to be perhaps more serving, to be serving the interests of... the er er east European powers.... And then it became perhaps... a troublesome er... entity.... Of course they had a problem at the outset... that being... all the powers had agreed on the need for joint intervention say er vis a vis France. In eighteen, between eighteen fifteen and eighteen eighteen... er the great powers did intervene in France. They had an army of occupation in some of France's north eastern departments. France was on... in a sense France was on probation in eighteen fifteen to eighteen eighteen. Erm... and and and we could take it back to the hundred days episode when the great powers have all er decided to er er to prevent Napoleon from making a comeback in France. But the great powers had agreed upon the principle of joint intervention. But of course as far as Britain was concerned, this could only be... intervention against France.... And what you tend to see happen... is not so much joint intervention... after eighteen... er fifteen or eighteen eighteen. You tend to see individual intervention.... Erm Austria in Italy.... France in Spain.... Russia in Greece. And of course, ironically... the western powers... Britain involves herself in Portugal. Britain involves herself in Greece. So Britain intervenes as well. Even though she was hostile to intervention erm you know erm by by... say er France in Spain or whatever. Yeah? So we get a strange paradoxical situation developing....
[speaker002:] So is it like, somebody could erm... I mean work against France in that situation?
[speaker001:] In that well... yeah I mean in a sense er that's right because... if you think about it, in eighteen... in eighteen fifteen... er the great powers stayed in existence mainly because of a fear of a... of of fear of France. Yeah? Erm and er... that's what, that was the cement which held them together. When when that's no longer perhaps valid, then the powers have got their erm, have got, have got their own interests to pursue.... Erm... It all gets mixed up of course because there's, there's there's erm... erm... Russia which is seen as a power, you know the reactionary power. A power which is... concerned with the threat of revolution in Europe. Russia intervenes to help revolutionaries in Greece.... So it's ironic, you know, you do get this paradox.
[speaker002:] But wasn't that cos er it was only Turkey's revolt though?
[speaker001:] Well yeah but it was still, it was, I mean don't forget... and it it it's perhaps a point you know, erm a valid point. The Greek revolts which had been going on since the early eighteen twenties. The Greek revolt was seen by European liberals who in a sense might be having a hard time of it... in in, in those years. The Greek revolt was seen as a symbolic er event as well as just an anti Turkish er erm uprising. Erm and that's why you do get erm... er European liberals going over to Greece to support the er er the Greek revolutionaries.
[speaker002:] Yeah but Russia didn't case Russia intervened as a pro-liberal thing. It's like
[speaker001:] No. But nevertheless... the intervention was there.
[speaker002:] Yes so
[speaker001:] And I mean it was er... I accept that it's hardly that that Russia perhaps was intervening in the interests of er of... of erm of of of of er Russian policy in that area. But erm... but the fact of the matter was,which whichever way you look at it, Russia was supporting essentially a liberal nationalist revolt.
[speaker002:] Couldn't you say that about the British in Portugal?
[speaker001:] Yeah but Britain... Britain ideologically at least well I'm I'm not sure about that. I mean... er Britain, Britain was er er er Britain's concerns out there... were to maintain British influence in the area. Yeah? Erm it so happened that that the group that that Britain was supporting perhaps were constitutionalists although Canning was almost erm was always rather scathing about... how liberal they were and how constitutionalist they were.
[speaker002:] So is it almost like this thing which is like... by... by chance?
[speaker001:] . Possibly so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Erm... Okay so that's er that's some of the erm er... major aspects of er of... of the congress system. By the way, just getting back to these interventions. Erm... er the intervention of France in Spain. Er France interv intervened in Spain initially to put down... a liberal revolt. Ironically... because you know French public opinion was very hostile to that intervention. Ironically in many respects the French intervention paved the way for the success of the liberals in Spain. It's a strange you know. It it it it's... it is paradoxical.... By the eighteen twenties perhaps the congress had become somewhat er... divisive. Possibly it was increasing tension between the great powers, the congress system....
[speaker002:] Was that in?
[speaker001:] I'm suggesting that by perhaps the eighteen twenties the congress system was becoming somewhat divisive.... Yeah... erm... course the other problem the congress system had I suppose a te a a technical problem. There was no bureaucratic machinery erm er to support it. There was no kind of permanent... congress house like you know, or congress building. Er... and of course obviously... there was no congress army.... Perhaps it was over-ambitious.... And again I I suppose though its main problem was... the the the misunderstandings or the er different interpretations... er that the great powers had. Notably of course between Britain... and the other powers.... Couple of other points about the erm er er about the er Vienna settlement in general. Let me erm, let me refer to erm the holy alliance erm... people I'm sure will come across this in their... in their reading.... The holy alliance.... It was established in September eighteen fifteen.... Erm... it
[speaker002:] Sorry. When was it established?
[speaker001:] September eighteen fifteen. It it it came from an initiative by Tzar Alexander.... It was signed erm... er it was signed er first by Austria, Prussia and Russia. And in a sense... the holy alliance came to be seen as representing their interests. ie... anti-liberalism... anti-nationalism. Why it was called the holy alliance was because erm er the signatories agreed that they would er, that they would rule their states and treat er... er policy erm... er according to christian principles. They would, they would rule their states and conduct policy according to christian principles.... Interestingly... all erm er most of the European powers came to sign this erm... It wasn't, it wasn't as ex. It wasn't exclusive like the quadruple alliance of eighteen fifteen.... There's a couple of points er er perhaps worth making about it.... Er Britain didn't sign it.... Britain refused to sign it.... It would seem that... Tzar Alexander was sincere... in in his er in his notions of christian... brotherhood and principles.... Erm... it's been er... it's been suggested as well that in some extent it reflects the religious revival in Europe that that that that was taking place. Erm... I think you know it's was one of the cliches of history that er that that intellectual movements developed counter-intellectual movements and even while... one intellectual movement is fading out like the er... er it's counter is rising. And if we can put this into simplistic erm er... er nay almost Mickey Mouse terms that the enlightenment was based upon rationalism. Erm er er cosmopolitan attitudes and such like and in the enlightenment was a strong... very very strong element of... of opposition to religion... erm and traditional religious beliefs. Ironically erm er er erm even towards the end of the eighteenth century... you see some of the revival of... religion. And and... and romanticism which is seen as the... as the movement which replaces the enlightenment in a sense. There's a very strong religious tinge er er to this and it's argued that the holy alliance is perhaps an expression of... of a significant religious revival that's going on... erm in Europe in the early nineteenth century. Erm amongst intellectuals er... Er there's one... there've been suggestions made about the holy alliance. Britain was very suspicious of it.... Because of course erm ah well which European leader could not sign the holy alliance?... For a very obvious reason. Don't forget that the holy alliance erm... enjoined it's signatories to to to conduct their affairs on christian principles.
[speaker002:] Oh Turkey
[speaker001:] Erm obviously the, presumably the Sultan of Turkey as a, as erm as a Muslim could not be expected to sign the holy alliance. And there was a suspicion in Britain... that it was all a bit of a plot to... er to kind of isolate Turkey. And sort of exclude Turkey... from European er consideration. It it would be, in a sense it was leading to a kind of psychological isolation of Turkey. And there was this view in Britain that maybe it was some kind of Russian er you know that it was a Russian manoeuvre. A tsarist manoeuvre to isolate Turkey.... Erm... Metternich interestingly... Metternich er later regarded the er holy alliance as meaningless. Metternich said that he signed it to please the Tsar.... Erm and yet perhaps erm it's. Perhaps it was important erm because as as as erm, as I'm I'm fond of saying that in history perhaps... what you believe is more important than what actually happened. And the holy alliance became part of, in a sense, liberal demonology. To European liberals the holy alliance was a sinister plot directed against the liberals.... Okay. So er a few other little aspects of the er of of er... the... congr of of of the holy all... of of of the er Vienna settlement which is sometimes underplayed.... Er... the Vienna settlements er contained... other elements. For instance it agreed to abolish the slave trade. At the Vienna settlement the great powers, all the great powers agreed to take no further part in the slave trade. They agreed to abolish it.... Erm various trade agreements were made. Er the river Danube was largely erm erm er largely became a kind of er... free trade river. You know it was bombing through all these different boundar er different boundaries. There was the freeing up of trade on the Danube.... Erm... So there were try er we we might describe some of the elements in the Vienna settlement as confidence building measures. Erm attempts at international... a a greater international economic co- operation.... So maybe we shouldn't be er er so quick as to er just er erm... dismiss er the Vienna settlement... entirely.... Right I'll be back in a tick. Just want to say a couple of Right. Erm... if you check with the er, if you check with the... erm handout on you know er the the topic areas. Erm... what we've been dealing with on Vienna is dealt with... in section... forty six reaction and revolution in Europe. What I'll erm, what I'll do next week on... this is a rather problematic topic this one erm... it's in the general section.... And there's an overlap with with question twenty six, French history eighteen fifteen to seventy one. Erm... er I'll try to deal with the erm... it's it's very very difficult to separate these topics out and and teach that one as a topic in, in a sense. What I'll do next week erm... we'll perhaps through concentrating on France we'll do a quick gallop through Europe eighteen... erm about eighteen fifteen to forty eight. And I'll focus in on the eighteen thirty and forty eight revolutions. But that will involve erm erm er France. Now erm more to the point... and I'll erm I'm reminding myself here. I haven't set any essays on Napoleon have I?
[speaker002:] No. Erm Didn't you? Oh
[speaker001:] No? No.
[speaker002:] You said you weren't going to.
[speaker001:] Well why on earth should I say that.
[speaker002:] I dunno. It's, I thought it was odd when you said it.
[speaker001:] It's a major topic. It's question twenty four on the old er... topic list. I will, I'll set essays on Napoleon on erm on er on... next time we meet on Monday. Erm... And let me remind everybody... because I don't intend erm... erm er waiting for for people to cough up on this so I would like to remind people to get, it it's the thirteenth today. So I want, I'd like everybody's erm... payment for the conference thing... next week if poss.
[speaker002:] How much is it?
[speaker001:] How much is what? No the rail, I'll check that out today or tomorrow and I'll be able to say, to say on Monday. But I'll let, let's imagine for the moment that it's still that six fifty. So we're looking at... we're looking at nine fifty. Let's call it ten quid. if the rail fare's gone up as I expect it may well have done.
[speaker002:] So do you want the rail fare money next week as well?
[speaker001:] Erm
[speaker002:] Might as well.
[speaker001:] No I don't need the rail, I don't the rail money in er... Cos I presume if you pay the seven quid you'll be more or less committed then to paying the... I'll I'll get the rail money a bit later than.
[speaker002:] Is it... a Wednesday?
[speaker001:] Erm It's a Thursday.... It's Thursday the nineteenth of March. Normal time.
[speaker002:] What about five o'clock?
[speaker001:] About fiveish.

[speaker001:] I'm sorry that I was unable to get, well two things went wrong first of all the date of the exhibition's changed... Gaugin and his friends in Brittany, due to circumstances beyond our control. But in this programme you'll appreciate this planned months, its planned, when did I first contact you?, oh February wasn't it, right, so we thought we'd have pictures here and Sue would be talking in front of the pictures. I didn't know at that time what the content of the exhibition was because Sarah who organised it all had to write to lots of people and arrange the loans and you know it is fairly recently that we discovered for example the tate would lend, their pictures because its very rare that they do, erm, and, so we thought the next best thing, when I discovered the change of dates would be to have slides of the pictures that Sue was using, but erm oh dear then wonderful that Sue was using a another book and this term allocated and I wasn't able to get the slides she picked, it was my fault that they're not on slide due to the amount of time that we had to do this. Therefore I'm afraid were going to have to pass Sue's book around [LAUGHTER], we'll leave the lights on and erm she's changed the scripture of her talks so that she will be describing the picture why'll its been passed round and could you please sort of pass it fairly quickly, I'll be at the back and then I'll come down into the front again, is there anyone who's a poet?
[speaker002:] I know I enter the poem when there is one not every picture has its some of these kinds telling you about how they write a poem, if I was going to
[speaker001:] Right
[speaker002:] but erm, we'll, we'll spend start the whole questions again when we get to the next one
[speaker001:] and we do have, some of this slides which, I'll show at the very end, alright, but it means it er, erm, the first part of the talk we'll keep the lights on and then could I ask you, you know to look and then pass it around like school
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] nobody looks back and I rush
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] oh yeah [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] right I'm pleased [LAUGHTER] pleased to introduce to us, er, er against all these difficulties and the nearer you are at the front the better, there's all stuff here look
[speaker004:] I'm sitting at the back
[speaker001:] anybody at the back would like to move nearer then sit here... yes, ok, is that alright?...
[speaker002:] Well I think I'll start off by telling you a little bit about myself erm, I'm a writer and I live in Durham, my work is here and I've also work abroad, if anybody can't hear me please say
[speaker003:] No
[speaker002:] you can't hear me, right, ok, I'll try and speak up a little bit louder, erm my work, I work erm here and I work abroad and I live in Durham, er I'm a writer and erm one of the things that I'm most interested in is using art as an inspiration for my work as a, as a writer and I'd like to be able to show you by this talk, how I do that, erm, I have a few publications, my work's performed by a local group actually based in Newcastle and I'm a member of er a group called Another Story and my work's been put to music by a composer and er a play and the play and sing that, that the pieces of erm another area of my work is... as I er writing workshops, the writing workshops are very different from the normal writing workshops there based at galleries and they take groups of people round an exhibition recording their comments on either one particular picture or the exhibition as a whole and then with my help we put the comments into poems that are then displayed along side the exhibits, erm this work I do with erm all sorts of people with children people with special needs, disabled people and, and that's really where my interest in art erm comes in and I find that its a great leveller for people who would like to express themselves and have perhaps have difficulty by aiding, by looking at paintings and being able to see perhaps emotions or images that they, they feel themselves, so in all areas erm I find painting in my areas of work, painting influences me and has done for as, as long as I can remember. Sometimes erm given me the questions and sometimes answering the questions for me, its always informing me and over the last few years I've erm, I said that to try and understand erm, how to use this information in my own work as, as a writer, and I see, I see parallels in all forms of art, communication is of course one, erm and the need to recognise and respond the plight of others is, is another area and the area that as a writer I'm particularly drawn too. Physically and erm emotionally writing can be very isolating and so, for example a few years ago, I was writing a huge piece on Africa about Africa and I found emotions growing that I actually didn't have names for, erm and it made it impossible to finish the piece I was working on, and then I, I went to see an Afro Asian exhibition of art and I saw portraying some of these paintings the same emotions and it, it didn't give me a name for the emotions but it, it made me feel an awful lot less isolated seeing that erm other people have also, have also felt this. So I was going to rummage through these slides and we don't have them, erm so I'll have to, I'll hand the, the, the book around in just one minute, erm the poems that I'm going to read to you, very few of them are actually complete, most of them are sketches erm ideas and images of erm, that I've got, I've, I've got them from the paintings. Sometimes when I, I write a poem I want to create a particular mood erm giving the piece erm a shape, a, a definite shape or just a shadowy shape erm and the overcoat in er Bon Jour Monsieur Gaugin, I found very, very expressive and the starting point for, for this particular poem I'll hand this round to you know, with the name of the, the front, right [LAUGHTER] I don't, has anybody, if you already know this picture, does anybody actually know it already?, no... I start with the overcoat obviously erm very expressive, not just because it was, people wear over, overcoats in cold days, but it was the size of the coat and the shape of it and, and it gave me a weight, I felt, er I felt a very definite mood erm about this picture because of the coat and it was a, er a ejective mood that I, that I felt from that, and the stick in the erm hands of the women over the bridge gave me the sound for, for this poem... would you like me to read as the, the thing being passed around, would that be ok?
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] ok, this poem's called erm A Pause In A Moment [reading] Worn out days dressed in damp wheat, heavy coat pulling at tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of a stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth of recognition [], so that poem started with the overcoat and that was the mood as I say, that was the mood of rejection erm and there was something about the way the old girl was looking at the women on the bridge, almost as if there was this recognition and, as it brought back memories that perhaps went or as black as the overcoat, erm the next er painting which I'm going to read to you about is erm... have you
[speaker003:] ...
[speaker002:] its the Four Brettan Girls and does it, do any of you know, I'm sure most of you, some of you have heard that erm... when I was looking at this, this picture of the, of the Brettan Girls, I erm, I was really particularly struck by the bo, the mild head of one of the dancers and the fact that she was rubbing her, her heal, erm and it gave me a voice for, for this poem, I was also drawn by the dismissal, there's a goose in the painting, there's four, four geese and one of them is dismissing the, the, the winner outright and erm I found his look very, very interesting and, and I couldn't help but compare the lies of these four dancers with those within erm from the later period as the eye that, that, that Gaugin painted later on. This, this poem's called Dancing Feet [reading] Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet []... erm and, if you, if you take, were oops trying to pay particular attention to, if you can see the geese in, in this one here, there's a fate, there's a, there's a forfeit which is missing, what's going on and er, and the reason well in fact er which, which was er very much a vocal point for me in, in that painting...
[speaker001:] I think its got to be better if I hold it different.
[speaker002:] It is, but then you won't be able to compare the, the details against the
[speaker001:] Well could you, we pass it round twice?
[speaker002:] Yes, yes, you could pass it round twice, that's ok with everybody
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker002:] Erm, how shall we do that?, as its going, read it again now?
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] Ok, [reading] Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet []... Erm the next one is the still life on, on with three puppies, while I was looking at Gaugin's work I couldn't help but notice he's constantly struck by the fact that he use set of three symbols through out his work it seems, and very, very often three caricatures erm or lines of three or three objects and I found this very interesting, more point of view that something that I, I wanted to incorporate in my own work, but I wanted to find a line or a phrase to use in the same way, erm, all of my work starts as one or a series of visual images and, and I then turn them into characters, repeating a word or repeating a line would be a way of erm emphasising characterise erm and the puppies that are in this painting erm, they delighted my children so much, I don't know if any of you know, do you know the painting of the three puppies its going to come round [LAUGHTER] at you in a minute, so I'll talk about it until it gets to you, erm, it delighted my children this particular painting, erm and I decided to put my sort of analytical approach to one side erm and do something with that later, so this poem is from my, my children's point of view and one of the things that are very interested, they were really worried, that, erm, I think it marks the height of the table and the fact that the puppies might fall off and do themselves some harm, that, I'll read it while its going round and then I can see then, that, so this is, ok, from my children's point of view this poem, its called Threes, [reading] Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay []. There's something else the children were convinced that the goblets weren't actually clay, the goblets that were on the erm, the table as opposed to would you like me to read that poem again?, would that be helpful?, right, we were with the, of the erm, the picture, Threes, [reading] Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay []. The next one is erm Van Gogh's sun flowers, that's it, that one, its erm, well its Gaugin, Van Gogh's sun flowers
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] ok, I'll talk as its going round again, if that's alright with is that alright? Erm, putting images into words is not always easy, a colour in a painting can give you a way in and the brown of Van Gogh's jacket erm affected me with this one particularly and the sun flower I felt was inappropriate misplace, in a vase to, to small, erm... and it gave me an image a very strong image of suffering and this poem is in its very early stages and its literally just a list of images and I wanted to be able to show you how I start off which is with a series of images and then I have to put some filler in and open them up a bit and, and make them more accessible and understandable, but this is just a list form. [reading] Sun flower limping, water less vase, suffering eyes, desperados in caged [], so from, from that painting I had a tremendous feel of something undergoing tremendous suffering and seem very desperate about the situation, and I didn't just see that in, in the picture of Van Gogh, but I could see that in the sun flower, so as, as a writer its images like that, that I would look for and open up and turn into characters or a way of portraying a particular mood, erm, the next one [LAUGHTER], were doing very well [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Its exhausting.
[speaker002:] I suppose this is erm, a caricature, a self portrait... this little, I, in fact I was, really actually hilarious as I felt that, I, I, don't actually know an awful lot about Gaugin, but if, if I knew nothing about him at all, I would of thought he was having a bit of joke of himself with this, but er, being the person that he was I can't image that he had that quality, that, I don't believe he would be laughing at himself, erm, erm, the symbolism erm and conflict of this painting its dazzles me more than, than the colour or at least as much as the colours in it, but there's a, there's a half eaten, well it isn't half eaten, but there's half an apple at the top and, and that was the, the way into me finally, for, for writing about this, this again is a shopping list, I call it a shopping list, this is just visual images that, that will be opened out at some point and turn it into something, and my images were erm [reading] Shoulders of the matador smoking snakes, dare to bit an apple, see one half gone and still I wear a halo intact [], that I'm sure I've completely wrong about him as a, a person, but as the painting that's obviously something else, erm, I found that one of the things that were he's, I, I think probably that everybody who writes is that you'll come to a point when you can't write, you stop writing, you haven't got anything you want to write about, or your frightened of writing, and I devise exercises so that, that doesn't happened to me, I think writing is like any skill you have to keep doing it to be able to do it, its, you, some of it is a game and the rest of it is hard work, and one of the exercises I, I delighted using erm a portrait of a woman erm, its about erm the er still life, its the back one, yes this one here, I have, I, I hope to use this as a writing exercise I found the, the maths in this and the colour of the piece of fruit in the background, very interesting because most of the colours to me seem a, a lot less vibrant then many of his other paintings, and so they, they attracted me and have a, a strong sense of erm, er a hidden desire in that and so it, to use it as a writing exercise which I intend doing, it will be able about a situation of character's with erm something that's hidden, some desire, I don't, the, not even spoke about to themselves or, or generally, erm I like to sort of say that came from those two little, just this amounts of colour which seemed to be saying such a lot...
[speaker001:] anything I do
[speaker002:] if, erm while this is going round you have any questions, now would be, now would be a good time to ask them if you have any, there will be time at the end to talk, you can do
[speaker004:] Have you check to see if your
[speaker002:] well erm, sort of in that erm, I was asked to come and do this talk, and so I, I organise to make sure that I had access to some of Gaugin's work and then to write poems about it, erm, so, erm, only in as much as that it was a waiting to hear this talk, but a lot of my work is through commissions and so I find myself writing about things that I perhaps don't have any interest in particularly, erm, or I find actually in a waiting, asked to write about anything is quite er exciting and actually using my skill I think it should be, as a writer I should really be able to write about everything. One of the things I was asked to write about this week I think was a radio, to, to write about er what I felt about radios, you know, er, erm, so anything could be thrown at you, and obviously I have my areas that I particularly interested in and I think sometimes I get a bit complacement and I'm writing about a, I find particularly interested in and a bit lazy, so its quite good to be stretched. Erm, the next one, we'll shall go erm, go to market will do, yes that's right, no
[speaker001:] No
[speaker002:] you've got the wrong one
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER], I was gonna say this is definitely not going to market
[speaker002:] Yes, no, she's not going to market
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker002:] This one, are you sure your not going to market This one, I, I, this is one of my favourites, I love this painting. The movement of this reminds me of er stage set and the figures on the bench could almost be actors and actresses and with the figure at the bottom here, the male at the bottom, well its not quite at bottom, tucked away at the side there, he, he, he looks like erm, like a harlequin figure, maybe a mischief maker, er I, I felt there was a lot of fun in this painting and a lot of erm, er gravado and, and stage specs, that kind of thing, so this poem is called for obvious reasons People Of The Nile, and I'll read it twice, probably be the best way [reading] Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing Chinese whispers [], so I, I, I quite wanted to give that er a, a contemporary updated feel, erm, I read that again for the people who may of just seen the picture at the back People Of The Nile, [reading] Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing chinese whispers [], erm, the next one [LAUGHTER], we'll have to put you on wheels I think [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Your
[speaker002:] this is erm, this is a bit like I went to an auction at erm Chesteny Street, and all the exhibits were brought out by hand, by, by the erm keeps watch, I'm sure this is a, this side of I in fact I've just been shown a different copy of this, Gwen has just shown me a different copy and the colour's is totally different, its a very, very poor erm print and, when I was looking at this through my book, the background was very strange and I felt that almost had been painted by a totally different artist, but having seen Gwin's, er Gwen's is much more of a go down in colour, erm so I think probably if I'd seen her, er prints I maybe I would of approached this erm differently, erm it gave me a very immense voice about crowds, erm, very, very different from the front of the picture apart from the alarm registered in the eyes of the, of the old woman erm, this is called Even Paradise Has Its End, sorry Even Paradise Has Its Price, sorry [reading] Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirit's sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price [], would you like me to read that one again?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] As I say all these poem's are very dense and erm if I get round to, to completing them they'll probably have at least another verse, certainly extra words and rhymes, that open it out and make it a bit more plausible... [reading] Ours in the night [], no I've got it wrong, sorry, I've moved on and I shouldn't've done...
[speaker001:] That's it
[speaker002:] This is right, [reading] Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirits sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price []. The next one is not working, this one here erm the light framed split here erm falling on the ground is the curse of the, of the male's aunt People and animals portray in this, in the Tahiti painting, never seemed to be in a hurry, erm, even when always relaxed even when working and I wondered how much of this was cultural and erm, how much was due to the large amounts of erm drugs consumed in most paintings at this, this period but that I suppose I'll, I'll never know for sure about, erm with this painting I found in the background, er there's a figure, that's looking in on the situation and I, I for myself think's its probably Gaugin, as he portrays himself as Christ, which I think he did quite a lot to me in, in, in a few of his paintings and so this painting gave me tremendous sense of being looked in on and this figure in the background, was the person that was doing the looking in. This is called It Was Good... [reading] In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good []. Would you like that one again [LAUGHTER], [reading] In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good []... now we have the dug out... how food is presented erm can say so much, at least it does to me and, so that, so that the beginning of this poem became from er the food, piece of food held in the hand of the mayor in this picture. Paintings erm have the power to take you back in time, I can look at a painting and remember something that's happened yesterday or years and years ago and as a small child, looking at this painting I remembered as a small child seeing for the first time erm the sea dipping into er, sorry the sun dipping into, into the sea and being horrified I was convinced that the heat of the sun would boil the oceans and the world dry and it reminded me for an awful lot of my childhood and I'm sure if I'd seen this painting years ago it would of persuaded me otherwise, erm... this is called In A Days Work [reading] Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat []
[speaker004:] What is it called again?
[speaker002:] In A Days Work, [reading] Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat []... erm we know come to a here comes the last er picture in my, in my talk this is erm, this is going to be exhibited here on the twenty third of July, ok, erm, two, two of Gaugin's pictures, this is one of them, and several other artists er of the same period, and I think this is going to be the only venue in, in England, I don't think there coming, sort of worth seeing, but unfortunately I shall miss it cos I'm, I won't be here, erm... this is a poster of
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I find this very difficult to erm, to relate, to relate hard work to the women portraying in, in this, we've got the postcard of that one, erm it must of been hard work and very tedious, but I think every now and then the moment breaks away and shines through at the back, and I think people like, like Gaugin erm captures those moments and then releases them on the canvass, and I hope that erm by, I hope I've been able to show you how I use art as a voice erm and a friend as my own work, even though we've maybe had to do such a sort of hand fist way, hand fisted way, erm, but, I, I've recently started to re-visit old favourite of paintings and I found that the story they tell sometimes has changed dramatically, maybe sometimes when your very little that, that, you know, sometimes dramatically as well, erm, but I, mostly, most importantly its, its still, I still find them, all of them compelling and challenging and, and something to stride for in my own work, erm, er only time will tell so I'll finish with the, the last poem which is erm comes from the postcard what's going round which is harvest, its called Patterns In The Grass, [reading] Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal []. I'll read that again [reading] Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal []. [LAUGHTER] thank you very much for being so its been very difficult for everybody and I do hope you've managed to, you get something out of, out of this talk, if you have any questions I'll be very happy to, try and answer them. I'd also like to er I attend, I've got a performance tomorrow night in Durham so if any of you want to come to that it would be very nice to see you [LAUGHTER], erm, if there are any questions please feel free to ask.
[speaker005:] Have you done many
[speaker002:] No I, its not my speciality, I have tried and I, I really can't, I can't cope with the discipline of it at all, it, it er ruins the activity that I have, I know some people, one, one woman I was on the course with, it wasn't you was it Phillip?, it was somebody, was it you who worked, no somebody else that er we were doing a course with who had a tremendous skill with high and said so much into the there's some woman I admire, but I can't think what her...
[speaker006:] Is seem to focus in or, or in art, and you go for art by visual means, rather than say a piece of music and subject. I don't know, do you write
[speaker002:] Erm, yes I do, both, my, my husband is a composer and a musician and erm just recently you, well I'll show you, basically that, we exchanged skills and erm I interpretations of his music erm, I, one of the things I would love to do and I'm hoping to do next year is to do something related to art using a dance and words, I think with three mix, mix well actually, mix it with its exciting, but that's one thing I really would like to work with
[speaker006:] I was asking you cos I'm always having arguments with the I, I, myself, I can see it as well
[speaker002:] Yes
[speaker006:] and I think its I was just wondering what you
[speaker002:] very much the same its, the page is so important, yeah, very important
[speaker006:] and this is what I think myself, but lots of people
[speaker002:] yes, yes that's right yes, yes but I mean it depends also I suppose erm, when your aiming for is the market, and I, I, I would like to have my work published but I also like to perform it and its got to be attractive to be looked at, in the first instance in, on a page its not known, er, there is, there is a lot of debate at the moment about using erm pages for poetry and some poets have actually starting using, writing from the wrong side and, and, and, and writing in the shape of a poem, for instance, if, what poem I was thinking off was a, was a waterfall so it was cascading the words cascading, you almost have to pick,ha,ha, have a choice of, of words that you want to fit into a particular thing, erm I think that's had its place, but I think it can be a bit off putting as well, yeah, but it exciting, yeah definitely.
[speaker007:] Do you try any other
[speaker002:] Oh yes varied, and there interesting, with, with children, particularly if they erm if I'm doing workshops er with art and writing workshops and we come across an abstract picture, the children music, and,we, as a way into their vocabulary which isn't as large as their, their writing skills, and there'll, there'll decipher an abstract picture, wonderful language and I like doing that you know
[speaker007:] I'm thinking the abstract art
[speaker002:] Yes, yes
[speaker007:] express
[speaker002:] yes, oh yes, and erm, going back to somebody asked me earlier, erm, about how it, I feel I have to be able to write about, just about anything, erm, and so if I was given commission to write about any one thing I would have to put myself in a position to, to be able to do it. I think this idea of, of writers shutting themselves away and writing has gone, you know, very that is a luxury I think erm to be able to do it, if you want to write and earn money, which I do as well as, as socialize while I'm working erm you've got to find ways of, of, of doing that and erm just writing books and poetry just wouldn't, I, I, I couldn't survive on that, I really do have to find other ways of, of earning money which is enjoying more and also uses of my skill and erm... I would think you'd need to be in contact with the situation rather than you not knowing, being able to write about that.
[speaker008:] Do you say whether you, identify the picture only on
[speaker002:] Erm, that was very
[speaker008:] er, er, I mean that,
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker008:] then they confront both of the the visual image and the written words
[speaker002:] I'm sorry what
[speaker008:] Do you identify the artist, do you
[speaker002:] Oh I see, yes, yes, I, huh, yes I would do, I, I, I would say in quite definitely that these words are inspired by such a such artist and, make it quite clear that I'm a writer and not a, I, I, I don't study art or I just don't understand science and painting and, and its my responses to that, yes.
[speaker008:] Just seems that it, it to me must be wrong, that it didn't identify them because a particular picture anyway, the reason why I find difficulty in making
[speaker002:] Absolutely, yes
[speaker008:] way for them
[speaker002:] the, this, this is just one aspect of, of my writing and I write about all sorts of things and erm, erm the shows that I do, we use two artists that's erm, I, I've written erm two, two poems about erm, er Darren and, and erm Stanley er you you've heard [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and erm, and I have assumed wrongly that most people will know the work of their and luckily that the, the song that we did was funny and so people enjoyed it, but they didn't understand it and they didn't have a visual image of the artist's work, so I now have to take erm a couple of pictures, er prints with me if ever were going to read it and we sing those songs but not everybody does, and then they do become excessible you know, they can see, you know, that erm, yes erm if it, if I was going to publish a book of poem I, it would have to be stated that this related to this picture and presumably it'd have to be, it would be with it, with it if anybody would be interested in doing.
[speaker009:] Does when you've finished the poem you read it out?
[speaker002:] Yes That's right, yes. That's right, yes it should, erm, these, these aren't completed, but even so the ones that we, we, I have done that too I've opened out, having performed them, you still need to have a little bit of an idea
[speaker009:] That's right
[speaker002:] of the artist
[speaker009:] yeah
[speaker002:] but as a, as a piece of work in it, yes that's right yes and I hope we, we did achieve that
[speaker009:] Yes
[speaker002:] erm because they enjoyed the, there are a few funny lines in it you know and they enjoy the, the visual amatory of these people performing it, but to themselves to actually understand it they need to know which artist it was, yeah
[speaker009:] and you know
[speaker002:] yeah, that's right yes.
[speaker007:] Do you think colours with emotions are
[speaker002:] Oh very much so, yes new devotion, size, erm, it, it in one or two of these erm they gave me a definite feel and to a, to a, it new I was trying to write
[speaker007:] I think Von Gogh was
[speaker002:] well yes absolutely yeah, and, and shapes I feel as well, you, you, particularly erm, and one of things that I did find in Gaugin's painting of Von Gogh was that erm, er, erm, depression really, I, I could see it there and the des desolation very much as if he was looking in on somebody who was in that position er, although at the time I don't thing Gaugin and, er Von Gogh himself knew it
[speaker007:] No
[speaker002:] I, I don't, I'm not an expert for poet, I, I, I feel about it, perhaps didn't...
[speaker009:] Did you hope to show the slides that you've got?, I mean is
[speaker002:] Yes, would you like to see, there's about three
[speaker003:] .
[speaker001:] You need the lights off? Where's the light switch?, erm
[speaker003:] ... ... Do you not fear that if you, if there is and another, especially if your contracted with powerful paintings, that the approach you make suffer as the result of the artist's vision, or
[speaker002:] I think that we can and see each other and also my interpretation
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] would be different from the reputation of, of the as I was holding on a particular images and create and then become those energy
[speaker003:] right
[speaker002:] rather than doing it direct, erm conscription of the painting
[speaker003:] right
[speaker002:] its my responses to it, that would be a very different approach, because of familiar with a, I mean with the postcard that was past around, familiar with that picture then looked at it one, I feel that about it. When your reading I closed my eyes and I got a different feeling
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker002:] from your and I can visualise, something totally different
[speaker003:] But is that what it should be?
[speaker002:] Yes, that's what, yes that's what I hoped for because I, I feel everybody's interpretation
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] is different, and you need an original
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] and you maybe miss something, from this you have your own, that's right and its somebody else teaches you another angle then there's possibility for ex,ex, expanding possibility
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] which I find exciting, but, but interesting in it.
[speaker003:] You seemed to take it with your poems
[speaker002:] Yeah, I, I do
[speaker003:] and
[speaker002:] I think I went down to most people to say they can't, but when you point out something to them, they say yes I can see that, look there's this as well and I think culturally er were led to believe if you don't succeed in it, erm but in actual fact I think that you all do, but perhaps I think the books do, either assess it and give it value or, or still allow it to happen
[speaker003:] Mm, somebody
[speaker002:] I feel it did, I strongly feel it, feel that, but I'm also sure that its an awful lot easier than, than most people think [LAUGHTER], but its not going to work for us is it? Its a shame we didn't have the slides, I think we'd see more
[speaker003:] Have you got the
[speaker001:] If you'd like to hold a torch for me [LAUGHTER] I can [] its erm, I think Sue
[speaker002:] Yes, ok I'll just, I can, I can do it winding up So this is called A Pause In A Moment [reading] Worn out days, dressed in damp weeds, petticoat cling and tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of the stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth or recognition []... Threes [reading] Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblets, made from clay []. Can I just point out that something here, erm, was, I think I mentioned about my children it was the height of the table and its just so little that, that they indicate their in height in this picture, but it is there and, erm, that, I found that really very exciting and as I say the, The Threes, it, the three goblets, the three apples the three puppies, so often I've, I've found that there is three sets of, three objects and in
[speaker003:] ...
[speaker002:] I haven't actually got a, a poem for this, I was saying to you that I would use this, I intend using this as a writing exercise, because the, the colour of her mouth and the colour of the piece of boot in the background, just stands out to me, it says, its about to me hidden desire of some sort, either the artist's or hers or... mine [LAUGHTER] I don't know []...
[speaker003:] So, none of those pictures would be in the exhibition that you have?
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker003:] But this is our picture which
[speaker002:] This is erm, yes I don't have a, I don't have I have got a poem for this, which we were, its been to Pam... now that would be interesting
[speaker001:] Thank you very much you fascinate, battling against others.
[speaker002:] Thank you very much.
[speaker003:] [clapping]

[speaker002:] Just on the floor at the front here, would you people just pick up one or two of the things that you have in front of you and hold them up above above your heads please.
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker002:] So that everybody behind you can see what they are. Turn them around in your hands.
[speaker001:] a minute.
[speaker002:] And what are they?
[speaker001:] Shells.
[speaker002:] Shells which have been gathered from all over... the seashore.... Just put that to your ear
[speaker001:] ...
[speaker002:] Do you hear anything?... Could you, can you hear anything? You can't. I can hear a train go by. I wonder if that was. Not that one
[speaker001:] Can't hear anything.
[speaker002:] that's a razorbill. Right Shh Right. Well, good afternoon everybody.
[speaker001:] Good afternoon.
[speaker002:] Well, time for some introductions. My name is Chris.
[speaker003:] And my name is Ivan.
[speaker001:] Hello.
[speaker002:] Some of you may know Ivan already.
[speaker001:] Me.
[speaker002:] You do? Well you are very fortunate people. But none of you will know my friend over here whose name is Donald.
[speaker004:] Hello.
[speaker001:] Hello Donald.
[speaker002:] Wh who I think is a friend of Noddy's. At any rate, he is got very big ears, and I'll tell you why. Because he goes around the country with his tape recorder finding out what's going on. And he's very interested in collecting would you believe not just stories
[speaker001:] Shells.
[speaker002:] Not shells, but words....
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker002:] And he's collecting lots of words to put into a very large book. But he's not a spy. He's a gatherer and a sharer of words. Just as you might be a gatherer and sharer of... stories. Are you, any of you, gatherers of stories? Some of you are. Well I've got some stories that I'd like to share with you but... there's a condition. If I tell you a story you'd have to agree to tell it to somebody else. Do you think you could do that?
[speaker001:] Yes. No I couldn't.
[speaker002:] You couldn't? Well will you try and listen to these stories and see if you think there's one that you like that you might like to share?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Alright. Now the first story that I've been asked to tell specially comes not from this country... we'll just let our lads here get dressed because you, you knew that the story was gonna come from a very hot country did you?
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker002:] You took your clothes off for it. Well the story that I have to tell you to begin with... comes all the way from a very hot and very large continent.... Does anybody know any large continents where it's a very very hot place?...
[speaker001:] Oh the centre line of the earth.
[speaker002:] What's that called, the centre line of the earth?
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] D'you know?... I can't remember
[speaker001:] The equator.
[speaker002:] The equator. Well done. Is that the word you were thinking of?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Great, you took the word out of her brain. Put it back later.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] A hot country which has the equator running through it. The country I'm thinking of is... Africa. Oh that place. Right. Would you like to hear a story from Africa?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Alright. Some of you may know this story. I wonder if you do? It's the story all about a man who had two very nice daughters. [wolf whistle] An excellent choice. The man's name was Mufaro. And he had two daughters, and their names... were Manyara and Nyasha. Mufaro was a very proud father. Both his daughters were very beautiful and he also thought they were very wise. But Manyara, when she was alone with her sister Nyasha, was not always very nice to her. She bullied her. One day she said, I'll become the queen and then you'll have to do everything I say. You can be my servant.... Alright said Nyasha. If that's what's going to happen I'd be pleased to work for you. But don't go around being so cross.... Everybody likes you better than they like me... said Manyara, the elder sister. That's not true, people like you as well said Nyasha. But don't go around being cross or you'll only make enemies for yourself. Nyasha never told her father that Manyara was being nasty to her because she didn't want to upset him. Nyasha had one place where she was very very happy though. Outside their little house... she had a little plot of land. And that's where she did her gardening. She grew yams... she grew millet... she grew vegetables and sunflowers... and the food she shared with all the family. And one day... when she was working in her little garden... slithering between the vine yams there came a green snake. Now in Africa... you must be careful of snakes because some of them are poisonous. But Nyasha knew this snake and she wasn't afraid. My friend, Nyoka come to me she said. You are very welcome here. You will keep away all the little creatures that would like to eat my vegetables. You can come here any time. And she made a little dint in the ground which filled with some water and became a little pool for the snake to drink out.... As she worked in her garden Nyasha, who was so happy, sang a song. Not only to herself, not only to the vegetables but also to Ny
[speaker001:] [singing] [] [sings a song]
[speaker002:] And she pulled up the weeds and she pulled up the teasels. And she... gathered the vegetables. And every time she sang her song the people knew that she'd be coming back. And that's the reason they believed why her vegetables and her yams grew so.... One day a messenger came from the great city... more than half a day's journey away across the river, to say that the great king had decided that he would like to have a wife. And a proclamation went out to everyone who lived far and near to say that he was looking not only for a beautiful wife, but also the most worthy wife that could be found. And he wanted all the girls who were interested to come to the great city. Manyara took her father to one side. Father she said, please don't send Nyasha. She would be so lonely to be without you. It would break her heart to have to go away, even to be wife to a king. I tell you what father, I'm your eldest daughter, I will go to the city, and I will become queen. And then you will have Nyasha to look after you. My child, said Mufaro her father, that is very kind of you... but the king is the person who is going to choose. He is the one who'll decide who is most worthy, so you must both go. And that is what was decided upon. Well, that night everyone went to sleep because if there was going to be a wedding everybody in the village would surely have to go. And everybody knew that that would be a great journey. But Manyara was not happy. She got up at night and she set off towards the city all by herself, travelling through the forest. She had never travelled alone through the forest at night before. And she was a little worried. And she was a little afraid. There were animals who lived in the forest who went out hunting only at night. She set off with only a little food... and she hadn't gone far when a small boy appeared right in the middle of the road. Please, he said, I am so hungry. May I have some food. Boy, she said, you're in my way. Get out of my way. I am going to the city. I am going to become your queen. Move. Now! And she brushed past him and continued down the road until she came to a place where two paths crossed and there was a little clearing. In the middle of the clearing, on a stone, sat an old woman... who smiled at her and said hello Manyara. You're very welcome. Take that road to the city but be careful. The trees may bend and seem to laugh at you. Do not laugh back. And when you get further towards the city, on a little rise of the land, you'll meet a man with his head under his under his arm. Be careful. And do not be rude to him in any way. Goodbye. How do you know my name? Said Manyara. And my journey is no business of yours. You foolish old woman. And she turned and went on down the path. And no sooner had she done that than the trees began to wave their branches towards her. And they seemed... to laugh at her.... Ha, she said, and laughed back as though trying to be brave, trying to be strong. But the trees still echoed in her ears. And then she came to a small rise in the land and there was a man, his head under his arm.... You're in my path she said. Get out of my way. I am going to be a queen, and I do not people... speak to people who displease me. And she walked around him, did not look at him. And she arrived in the city. Next morning Nyasha awoke back in her home village, the younger sister. There was great commotion outside. People were worried. People were bustling here and there. They were all looking for Manyara. Where could she be? What could have happened to her. Wait! Called someone. Here is her footprint on the path leading towards the city. She must have left already said Mufaro. We must all follow. And Nyasha and all her family and everybody from the village made a long long line and set off through the forest. They hadn't gone far when at the side of the road they saw a small boy.... Little boy, she said. You look so hungry to me. Here... take this food. And she offered him half of the yam that she had brought with her. Thank you, he said. And on they travelled through the forest until they came to a place where the roads crossed and there sat an old woman resting on a stone.... She smiled at her. Old woman, she said... you look tired. And the woman smiled but pointed at the direction that they were to go. Thank you said Nyasha. Here... share my sunflower seeds with me. And she gave her a packet of sunflower seeds. And on they travelled until they reached the rise in the land. And Nyasha ran up to the top of the rise and saw the land and the city all below her. Oh father she said, this is so beautiful. I've never seen such a beautiful country in my life. Surely there must be some wonderful things happening here. Lead on said her father, and he lead the way till they came to the flowing river. Carefully they crossed the river and they made their way into the city. But no sooner had they got to the city than they heard a loud shriek of a girl's voice. And Manyara came rushing out of the temple. Don't come she said. Don't come. Stay where you are. Oh Nyasha my sister please, do not go into the temple. There is the most dreadful monster in there. He has five heads. And it's telling you about me. It's telling you all about. Nyasha said don't worry my sister. We must not be afraid. We have come here to see the king and we must all go into the temple. Her father Mufaro comforted his eldest daughter. While Nyasha bravely went into the temple and there... sitting on the throne that was made only for the chiefs there sat... not a king... not a prince
[speaker001:] A queen.
[speaker002:] not a man
[speaker001:] A snake?
[speaker002:] not a woman... but a small, green snake.... Nyoka said Nyasha. What are you doing here? And the snake spoke to her. I... am not just a snake he said. For I am indeed... and as he spoke he changed... into a young, handsome man
[speaker001:] The prince.
[speaker002:] with beautiful black skin... and a lovely smile on his face. I am your king, he said. But I am also Nyoka, your snake. I am also the boy who you met in the jungle. I am also the woman who sat at the crossroads. And I know you to be beautiful and to be most worthy to be my wife. Will you please become my queen? And Nyasha agreed. What a wedding there was to be. The king's mother and sister took her to their hut and they prepared the finest clothes for her. And she baked some bread with the millet flour that she had brought from her own garden. And there was a marriage. And there was a great feast. And their father became the happiest man in the whole kingdom. Nyasha lived with Nyoka her husband in the palace. And Manyara... worked as their servant.... That story comes from the Shona people of South Africa. And the names in the story are very important. The father's name was Mufaro. And in the Shona language that means... happy man. Nyoka... in Shona means a No. It means a snake. I didn't know that you spoke African languages but you do now. It means a snake. But what do you think the girls' names meant? I've written it under here so I'm not going to hold it very close. What do you think the oldest girl's name meant? Her name was Manyara. What do you think she was like? Their father was certainly a very happy man. Shake.
[speaker001:] Ashamed.
[speaker002:] Ashamed. You can read very well can't you? Did you read it from here?... Did you?... It doesn't matter.
[speaker001:] I saw some of it.
[speaker002:] Well done. It doesn't matter. Manyara means ashamed. Could you think of any other words that we could use to describe Manyara the eldest sister? What was she like?
[speaker001:] Nasty.
[speaker002:] Nasty, yes. Anything else? You thought she was wicked?
[speaker001:] Horrid?
[speaker002:] Put your hands up please and then I'll know who to hear....
[speaker001:] Despicable.
[speaker002:] Despicable.
[speaker001:] Brave.
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker001:] Brave.
[speaker002:] Brave? You thought she was brave. Why was she brave?
[speaker001:] she went in the woods.
[speaker002:] Because she went in the jungle all alone? Yes. Very good.
[speaker001:] Er horrid?
[speaker002:] Horrid. Yes.
[speaker001:] Nasty.
[speaker002:] Nasty. Sorry?
[speaker001:] I forgot.
[speaker002:] It doesn't matter. Put your hand up again when you remember again.
[speaker001:] Selfish.
[speaker002:] Selfish. Yes, quite right. That's, you tell me one. Horrid. Yes. A bully. Yes. I think she was a bit of all those things. Sorry?
[speaker001:] herself.
[speaker002:] She always thought of herself. Quite right.
[speaker001:] got no manners.
[speaker002:] She had no manners. Yes you're all absolutely right. Just sit still. Put your hands up if you've got something to say then we can hear.
[speaker001:] Scary.
[speaker002:] Scary?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] She might have been if she was going at you wouldn't she? And what were you going to say?
[speaker001:] Ill-mannered.
[speaker002:] Ill-mannered. Quite right.
[speaker001:] Silly.
[speaker002:] Silly.
[speaker001:] And rude.
[speaker002:] Rude.
[speaker001:] She didn't think of anyone else except herself.
[speaker002:] Quite right. Thank you very much indeed for saying that. Yes. And her name Manyara meant... ashamed. But what about the younger girl who became the queen? Her name was Nyasha. Have you read this one?
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker002:] Have you read this one? You haven't. Alright. Well now what d'you think that name would mean? What was she like, Nyasha? The younger girl. The girl who worked in the garden.
[speaker001:] Nice. Merry.
[speaker002:] Merry. Oh I like that word.
[speaker001:] Kind.
[speaker002:] Kind. Yes.
[speaker001:] Nice.
[speaker002:] Put your hand up first and then we'll know who to listen to please.
[speaker001:] Nice.
[speaker002:] Yes. I like that. Have you got a word for her? I want everybody to give me a word for the younger, younger girl. Yes everybody. You sit on your bottom first, you're kneeling up. I'm gonna to speak to you in a minute.
[speaker001:] kind.
[speaker002:] Kind. Yes.
[speaker001:] Generous.
[speaker002:] Generous.
[speaker001:] Someone's not scared.
[speaker002:] Someone who's not scared. Yes what's the word for someone who's not scared?
[speaker001:] Brave.
[speaker002:] A brave person. Yes.
[speaker001:] Friendly.
[speaker002:] Friendly. Yes.
[speaker001:] She says thank you and please.
[speaker002:] Quite right. Do you?... Excellent.
[speaker001:] Erm... forgotten now.
[speaker002:] Bother. Sorry, come and. Give me another one. Yes, what was your word you were gonna say? Sorry?
[speaker001:] She was okay.
[speaker002:] She was okay. What do we mean when we say okay?
[speaker001:] That that she's not too nice and she's not too horrible.
[speaker002:] She's not too nice, she's not too horrible. Yes. Cos okay can mean lots of things can't it? What were you gonna say?
[speaker001:] She thinks of other... people.
[speaker002:] Quite right. Yes. And what were you gonna say?
[speaker001:] Helpful.
[speaker002:] Helpful. Yes, good.
[speaker001:] She wasn't rude.
[speaker002:] She wasn't rude. She was dead canny I reckon. What's What were you gonna say?... Where you just having a little stretch? It doesn't matter, if you haven't got a word don't worry. Right. Everybody sit still for a minute and... what were you gonna say?
[speaker001:] Gentle.
[speaker002:] Gentle. That's a lovely word too. I wish people would come up and say things like that
[speaker001:] Generous.
[speaker002:] The name, and generous... the name Nyasha actually means mercy. Well it's got some different meanings that and you may be able to talk about that another time with your teacher. And I will leave this with you here... so you can leave that for another time. Cos teachers have got so many things to think about towards the end of term. Well... that story came all the way from Africa. Would you like to hear another story?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You, you would? I tell you what, would you like to just go an sit behind on that chair over there and you'll be more comfortable.... Just you. You take your legs with you. Alright? Then you've got nobody to bump into, over there. Good....
[speaker001:] I don't want
[speaker002:] You, you don't? Right, you go to sleep now, alright? Are you asleep? Oh dear.... Cos this next story that I would to share with you... is about a boy who I must have everybody sitting on their bottoms all alone please. And try not to touch anybody else during the story. Alright?... Good.... Now... this story is about a boy who lived with his mother.... I don't know when this story star... are you ready boys?
[speaker001:] No. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Can you sit nice and still please, on your bottoms, without touching anybody next to you.... I don't know when this story started... but it certainly happened a long time ago. It wasn't in your time, and it wasn't in my time.... But it was a time when the boy and his mother, who lived in a little cottage just outside the town, had to earn their living... from growing their own vegetables and doing what they could to help other people in order to make a living.... He liked the cottage they lived in very much indeed. He liked the garden that they had very much indeed. He liked the path to the town. He liked the countryside all around. And he was so happy that he said to his mother one day, mother... I want to live for ever. Oh my goodness she said, I can't help you there. You'll need to go and get some advice... from the head wife at the end of the village. And at the end of the village there lived an old woman who was very very wise and said if you want to live for ever then you must speak to the person who's the oldest person I know. Go and speak to the old man of the woods.... So up to the woods and there in the woods he heard the sound of an axe. Now do you know what the sound of an axe is like? and trees. Old man he said, can you help me please? And the old man stopped and put his axe down.... I want to live for ever t said the boy. Ah, said the old man. I'm going to live... for as long as this forest remains standing. And it was a huge forest and it went for ever. And he put his axe into the tree again and the boy thought... he's gonna chop down all these trees soon. Is there anybody else please... who's going to live for a long time? Ah said the old man of the woods, there's the old man of the lake. And he is higher up the hill. So the boy climbed up the hill till he came to an enormous lake.... Then in the lake an old man came up from under the water and took a great scoopful of water... and drank deeply.... The boy had never been more surprised in his life. Old man, he said, do you live here? I do said the old man who's hair was almost down to his waist. And I shall live here said the old man until I have drunk this whole lake dry. The lake was enormous and very very deep. And the old man drank again.... Oh said the boy, you seem so thirsty. Eventually you'll have eaten and drunk all this lake. Is there anybody who's going to live for even longer than that? Ah said the old man, there's one other person. It could be the old man of the mountains. Go and ask him. And so he climbed to the mountains and there, high in the mountains, in an old stone building lived a man with hair... down below his waist. Old man are you gonna live for a long time? I am he said. I shall live here until these mountains crumble into the sea. Oh that's a long time said the boy. Can I come and live with you and help you? You may, said the old man. And he did. But after many many years, the boy suddenly got worried. I want to see my mother he said. I want to go and see the place where I was brought up, my little house, the garden and the road to town. I want to go back and visit her. No said the old man. Don't do that. Stay here with me or you might be sorry.... The boy thought for a mom
[speaker001:] Me. I don't. Not me, not me.
[speaker002:] Not you? Why would you like to live for ever?... What would you want to do? What would you want to do?
[speaker001:] Go on holiday.
[speaker002:] Go on holiday. Where to? Different countries? Lovely. What would you do if you could live for ever?
[speaker001:] I'd go to Tenerife and stay there for ever.
[speaker002:] Why, what would you do in Tenerife?
[speaker001:] Er...
[speaker002:] Play on the beach. What would you do?
[speaker001:] Go in the caves.
[speaker002:] Which caves? Shh I'm listening to somebody else.... Put your hands up and then I'll be able to listen to you. I'm listening to somebody else now. Sit down please, on your bottom.
[speaker001:] The cave what my dad chose is where I'd go.
[speaker002:] Really?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] a good father there. Well done. And what did you find in the caves?
[speaker001:] Erm some of the things what you get.
[speaker002:] Wonderful. Who else could tell me something else they'd like to do if they could live for ever? What about you?
[speaker001:] To see what kind of animals there was next.
[speaker002:] To see what animals came next. Yes. Good answer. And what about you. You'd live in? You'd live in, in Disneyland would you? Why would you like to go to Disneyland?
[speaker001:] To see all
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker001:] They have loads of rides.
[speaker002:] Loads of rides. Yes there would be wouldn't there? And would you g like to go on rides for ever and ever and ever?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You wouldn't get tired?
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker002:] No?
[speaker001:] I would just
[speaker002:] My goodness me. What about you? Just a minute.
[speaker001:] I'd like to see the people that came next.
[speaker002:] You'd like to see the people that came next? Would you?... And what about you?
[speaker001:] I see Disneyland.
[speaker002:] You would would you? Good. Yes lots of people would like to see Disneyland. What about you? Shh shh I'm doing some listening now. Shh.
[speaker001:] I would like to stay the same age so I could play football.
[speaker002:] Football for ever? But you wouldn't have any teeth if you stayed the same age. You'd still have your tooth missing.... You'd like to stay your age and play football for ever? Oh what an interesting wish. And what about you?
[speaker001:] I'd like to
[speaker002:] You'd like to help the animals? What a very nice person you must be. Good.
[speaker001:] I would like to go to EuroDisney and stay there.
[speaker002:] To EuroDisney? My goodness. What a lot of travelling you've all got to do.
[speaker001:] helping animals.
[speaker002:] Really? How nice. Good, even the fierce ones?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Even the poisonous ones? You don't mind sharks?... Ooh you're a brave person to what about you? What were you gonna do? What would you like to do? Sorry?
[speaker001:] I've forgotten.
[speaker002:] You've forgotten. Alright. And two more people over here I want to talk to. Shh shh shh.
[speaker001:] I'd like to... I'd like to in the world.
[speaker002:] Look after everything in the world? Very useful. To see the what, sorry? The carrot dance?
[speaker001:] Characters.
[speaker002:] The characters. Oh I understand. Right. Excellent. Good. Right...
[speaker001:] I would like to be a air pilot for ever.
[speaker002:] An air pilot? Alright. Just si now just ge just hands down for just one minute please. Cos I've just got to check... are we alright up to three. Up to three, right. Listen. There's time just to squeeze in one more story if you'd like to hear it. Sorry?
[speaker001:] Some people say yes and some people no, say no.
[speaker002:] Well Ivan has brought along this harp [harp music] which is actually an Irish harp which has come a very long way.
[speaker001:] I've played it before.
[speaker002:] You've played a harp before?
[speaker001:] Yes, that one.
[speaker002:] Excellent. Well if Ivan falls asleep will you take over?... Excellent. Good. Would you like to hear a story that has a harp?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Sit down on your bottoms everybody now please. And we'll see what you think of this story here.... In Scotland... by the shore there lived a fisherman who's name was Angus.... He'd been a fisherman all his life. He had his own little boat and do you know... where farmers make farrows on the land, the only mark that was left behind by Angus was the mark where he pulled his boat up on to the shore every day that the weather was not too rough. The thing that he loved most of all in the whole world... was the sea. And he would sing to himself in his house or in his boat the song which his father had taught him many years ago....
[speaker003:] [sings a song]
[speaker002:] He sang about his love of the sea. Every now and then Angus would go into the town. He'd drink a dram with his friends. But they would say to him Angus, isn't it about time you found yourself... a wife? Someone to share your life with?... He shook his head. I could never love anyone who wasn't like the sea. Wild... free. He loved the sea so much.... One day, it was close to midsummer, a day not unlike today. Angus had been to the town and he made his way back to his cottage along the shore. As he went he heard the music of the sea. he heard the sounds of some other voices singing on the shore. As he came up over the rise he thought he heard a beautiful song. Some girls were dancing and singing on the beach, leaping in and out of. As they played and as they sang and as they danced they made no mark on the sand at all. Angus was... entranced. He hadn't heard such a beautiful sound... he hadn't seen such a beautiful sight.... As he moved his way down on to the beach, he clumsily knocked the stones and the girls saw him and rushed to the rocks where they picked up not clothes, but sealskins which they wrapped around their bodies and then dived back into the sea. Except for one girl who ran towards the rock where Angus was leaning, not just on the rock but also on a sealskin. Please, she said... that's my skin there. Let me have it back. I must go with my people. I must have it. Please give it back to me. The skin was so beautiful to touch and the girl had such a beautiful face. No he said, I can't give it back to you, you're the person that I've been looking for all my life. Please, please come and live with me. Please come and be my wife. I must go back to the sea, she said. That's where I live.... But Angus had hold of the skin. And although she was sad, she knew that she had to go with him and she did. Up the shore they walked. And she shuddered when her feet first touched the grass.... Back into the cottage he showed her the way and gave her so
[speaker003:] [sings a song]
[speaker002:] The children had heard this song many times but they were always sad that it sounded such a... lonely song. And while they played in the barn and while their mother sang... the girl found something behind the haystack. It was soft, softer than anything she had ever touched before. She held it to her face and it was so beautiful. She told her brothers and they too put their faces into the soft sealskin. Mother, mother they called, come and see what we've found. And they all held out the sealskin towards her. Oh my children she said. She dropped the bowl that she was using to the floor. Thank you. She put the sealskin round her body and she kissed each of her children. And she hugged her daughter very tight. Never forget me my dear she said. I will always help you in your future life. But boys... you must all tell your father that he must look after you now. Goodbye. And she took the skin and she ran down to the shore... and she put on the skin, dived back into the sea. A seal's head bobbed up from the waves and Angus was pulling on his oars, heaving the skiff back to the shore. A seal called out to him, goodbye Angus, goodbye. Look after the children for me. Farewell, farewell. The seal dived away and a moment later two seals appeared together in the water and swam away together. The children told their father what had happened but he knew. But... whenever Angus and his daughter went out in the boat fishing for their lives to keep themselves fed, it seemed that a seal swam in front of the boat and lead them towards the places where the fishes were thickest in the sea in that part of the coast. And they never forgot their mother. And they never forgot... how important the sea was in their lives. Now that is the story of a seal wife.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Thank you all for listening. Well. That's the end of our stories. And somebody has got a question.
[speaker001:] Yeah, my dad works in Scotland.
[speaker002:] Well I never. I wonder if he's ever seen a seal? And there are lots of people who live in Scotland who tell stories all about the seals. Have any of you ever seen a seal? Shh. Good. Now one or two people have got something they want to ask. So let's listen please. And those people who've got their hands up... boys! Can you be quiet please, so that we can hear the people who want to speak. I think before we ask any other questions, we'll ask everybody to just have a stretch. Everybody... two arms and a big stretch and everybody have a big yawn.
[speaker001:] Ooh
[speaker002:] Ooh. Now... is there anybody here... who was born as an animal?
[speaker001:] Everyone was.
[speaker002:] And so were you born as an animal?
[speaker001:] Yes I was.
[speaker002:] What animal are you most like?
[speaker001:] A dinosaur.
[speaker002:] A dinosaur. That's very interesting.
[speaker001:] I'm a monkey.
[speaker002:] Sorry? A human, you're a human being? Alright. I just wanted to make sure. Right so [claps hands] everybody, listen please. Boys. Donald has still got his... microphone here and he wants to hear what everybody's got to say. And if we all talk at the same time, he can't hear anything. He's come a very long way to see what you've got to say as well as hear the stories. Now what did you want to say at the back?
[speaker001:] Cla some of class seven enjoyed the story that much story about seals before we came in.
[speaker002:] You've heard a story about seals before?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker005:] This afternoon we had a story called the seal king wasn't it?
[speaker001:] It was all about
[speaker002:] Really.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] It wasn't the same story but it was a story about seals.
[speaker002:] What a coincidence.
[speaker005:] What a strange coincidence wasn't it?
[speaker002:] Oh absolutely. And what happened in your seal story? I'm doing some listening over here.
[speaker001:] A fisherman caught a seal. A king seal out of the sea.
[speaker002:] A king seal?
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] And what happened to the seal?
[speaker001:] And erm
[speaker002:] Shh shh shh. We're listening. That's a very good story. And those stories are very very old. And for many many years nobody wrote those stories down at all. So the fact that you've heard those seal stories, two different ones, is very important. Particularly if you've written them down.... You're not supposed to still be yawning. Alright... now I just wonder if it might be worthwhile just some people going back to the classroom now or some stay or?
[speaker005:] children class. Children in class will you sit down for two more minutes.
[speaker002:] all those people going now music. Girls, I want everybody down please on the floor.... Now, I've got some questions that I'd like to ask you. Everybody sitting on the floor please.
[speaker005:] Everybody sitting on the floor. That's
[speaker002:] I've got one or two questions I'd like to ask you... and I wonder what your reply is gonna be. Now, in order for Donald to be able to hear the replies as well, we must only have one person talking at a time. I want you just to close your eyes for one minute everybody please. And I want you to think about the sound that you, not touching anybody!... Sit down on your bottom and close your eyes please! Everybody else can do it except for you.... Now, close your eyes please very carefully. I want you to think... not just about the story of the seal wife... no, on your bottom... eyes closed.... I want you to think about the sounds that you heard.... The sounds that Angus heard and the sounds that his wife heard... and the songs that they sung.... Now... how could you describe those sounds? What did they sound like to you? When you've got an idea or something to say, put your hand in the air please.... What did those sounds... sound like?... Alright. Open your eyes everybody.... What could those sounds sound like to you?
[speaker001:] Gentle.
[speaker002:] Gentle.
[speaker001:] The song sounded beautiful and lonely.
[speaker002:] Beautiful and lonely the song.
[speaker001:] Soft.
[speaker002:] Soft.
[speaker001:] forgotten.
[speaker002:] Doesn't matter.
[speaker001:] Wavy.
[speaker002:] Wavy? That's interesting.... What were you gonna say?
[speaker001:] Can't remember.
[speaker002:] Quite right, it was very wavy wasn't it? That's a very good word to use, that one.
[speaker001:] Musical.
[speaker002:] Musical. Now I want you to think about what sort of... what sort of thing you mean by musical because we know it was musical. But what did it feel like? Somebody said wavy, and that was a shape... almost. There was a feel to that as well because it was moving a lot wasn't it? Hands up first please.
[speaker001:] It sounded like the sea.
[speaker002:] Like the sea. And what does the sea sound like to you?
[speaker001:] I know. I know.
[speaker002:] Shh shh. Everybody might think something different.... Is it a gentle sound or a fierce sound?
[speaker001:] A soft sound.
[speaker002:] A soft sound. Right. What were you gonna say? A kind sound. I thought it was... a rolling sound.
[speaker001:] I thought it was a rough sound.
[speaker002:] You thought it was rough did you? Shh shh shh. Put your hands up if you want to speak please, and then we won't have two people talking together. Right. What did you want to say?
[speaker001:] Tender.
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker001:] Tender.
[speaker002:] Tender? That's a very interesting word to use. Yes. Why did you say tender?... What made you think of a tender thing to say?... Sorry?...
[speaker001:] Gentle.... Gentle.
[speaker002:] Gentle, yes that's another... nice thing to do. Sorry? Bit louder please....
[speaker001:] Tingly.
[speaker002:] Tingly? Yes, that's a good word to use too. Erm what? Sealy?... Sealy? Yeah that's interesting. That's a new word to me, a sealy sound. Alright.
[speaker001:] Soft.
[speaker002:] A soft sound. Alright. Another job for your memories to do. Sit on your bottoms please. I want you to think back to the story of Mufaro
[speaker001:] Mufaro
[speaker002:] And the two girls... I beg your pardon?
[speaker001:] Er what story?
[speaker002:] The story of the African sisters
[speaker001:] Oh yes.
[speaker002:] who went to the king. The older sister, Manyara, left her village and went all alone through the forest to the city, all by herself.... What was that jungle like?... What did it feel like? What did it sound like?... Who can think of a word to describe that jungle and that girl all by herself. You can use more than one word if you want.... I want everybody to think of a word please. Can you think of a word to describe that jungle where the girl went?... Well you kept thinking about it. We might ask to hear some of those sounds again in a minute.
[speaker001:] Scary.
[speaker002:] Scary. Well you can just say it again.
[speaker001:] Scary.
[speaker002:] That's fine....
[speaker001:] Very... very scary.
[speaker002:] But, tell me again, later.
[speaker001:] Windy.
[speaker002:] Windy. A bit windy maybe.
[speaker001:] Spooky.
[speaker002:] Spooky.
[speaker001:] Rustly.
[speaker002:] Rusty. That's interesting.
[speaker001:] No rustly.
[speaker002:] Rustly. I beg your pardon. Rustly.
[speaker001:] Terrifying.
[speaker002:] Terrifying. Yes.
[speaker001:] Echoy.
[speaker002:] Echoing. Yes.
[speaker001:] Scared. Really really scared.
[speaker002:] Scared.
[speaker001:] Creepy.
[speaker002:] Creepy. Boys, can you think of some words to describe it? Well if you can play, you can also think. So I'm gonna ask both of you for a word specially in a moment to describe what it was like for that girl in the jungle.
[speaker001:] Scary
[speaker002:] In a moment. Spooky. Have you got a word?
[speaker001:] Scary.
[speaker002:] Scary. We've had scary already.
[speaker001:] Tangly.
[speaker002:] Tangly? Oh that's an interesting word. Tangly. Oh yes, what's yours?
[speaker001:] Er... dark?
[speaker002:] It was certainly dark. And would you like to be in that jungle?
[speaker001:] No. I would. Yeah, yeah.
[speaker002:] All by yourself? with their heads under their arms?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Not now. I'm still listening. I'm still listening. Shh shh shh. I'm still listening. Three more words.
[speaker001:] Horrible.
[speaker002:] Horrible.
[speaker001:] Erm I forgot.
[speaker002:] I forgot.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Frightening.
[speaker002:] Frightening and Oh yes. Sorry? Sometimes when it's a little bit silent it can be frightening can't it? And... sorry, what did you want to say over here please?... What was, did you have a word? Right. Alright, we'll ask them. Did you have a word as well to describe what it was like in that jungle?... Cos I think you're good at words. I've got a feeling that you're very good at talking. How would you describe, if you'd been through that jungle... what would you have said? Right let's hear the boys' two words then. What word were you gonna say for the jungle?
[speaker001:] Terror....
[speaker002:] I've struck dumb this... cracked it.
[speaker005:] Isn't that strange.
[speaker002:] We've cracked it. The first time ever. If you don't tell us this word now
[speaker005:] First time and haven't got a word.
[speaker002:] you're not allowed to speak for the rest of the week.
[speaker001:] he's hiding over there.
[speaker002:] No he's not hiding cos he's just... at the back. And what's your word gonna be?
[speaker005:] not very good at hiding.
[speaker001:] Dark.. Pardon?
[speaker002:] What's your word going to be?
[speaker001:] horrid.
[speaker002:] Horrid. Alright fine.
[speaker001:] dark.
[speaker002:] Dark. Well done. And your last word?
[speaker001:] Spiky.
[speaker002:] Spiky. Very good indeed. Hands down please. Now listen
[speaker005:] Will you please stop
[speaker002:] We just want to say thank you very much to all of you for coming and listening. But there's one thing that you have to remember. I said at the beginning that you were gonna come and listen to our stories... you also had to tell other people the stories as well. Well, next time you're babysitting you can tell the baby. So we've only got one thing more to do for you. Everybody. We've only got one thing more that we can give to you and that's a good clap to show you how much we've appreciated you listening. Thank you very much indeed.
[speaker001:] [clapping] Thank you
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] [clapping]
[speaker002:] Alright. And Donald's gonna go and take away all those words and he's gonna put them all into a dictionary all by himself. Right now everybody, without making any other sound and leaving the shelves just were they are, can you all stand up.... Don't move just stand up.

[speaker001:] Erm, I mean I don't mind
[Andrew:] No
[speaker001:] I think I put your ideas up cos I wanna get that done, bit
[Andrew:] Er I'd be perfectly happy if that was er
[speaker001:] Right, no problem, jolly good, erm...
[Andrew:] This one er what's, what's going on, he said well what I been called for
[speaker001:] Mhm
[Andrew:] have them turned on, er and that's it, well... This school
[speaker001:] And he's asked to put another one on, for this morning
[Andrew:] No, no
[speaker001:] I said er, if we get the rest up we'll in the vicinity was obviously not unusual
[Andrew:] Well I suggest we have a bit beautiful
[speaker001:] a bit chilly the weather might
[Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] There's better for your
[speaker001:] Yes
[Andrew:] Good I know I just... I don't know why it's too much coming her to discuss
[speaker001:] Yeah
[Andrew:] and they just drum it in wants to know, I know what he's when he, when he or
[speaker001:] That is, well it's central
[speaker003:] ...
[speaker001:] Well I hope we will get something Mm, mm
[Andrew:] and that's been
[speaker001:] Right, I've got you
[Andrew:] You know he borrowed the hairbrush from me, he brought it back in this
[speaker001:] Did he?
[Andrew:] Would you rescue it for me?
[speaker001:] Yes it would be a
[Andrew:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] It should stay clean when
[Andrew:] Ah, yeah...
[speaker001:] Are you sure?
[Andrew:] yes right Probably today I ought to start moving the erm, the electrics into the strong room, into here
[speaker001:] Yeah, be alright.
[Andrew:] Is that alright?
[speaker001:] Yeah, fine
[Andrew:] So that I take there's a lot of work to do
[speaker001:] Mm, mm, well, erm,
[Andrew:] Well, what'll, tomorrow?
[speaker001:] Tomorrow I can do it
[Andrew:] Yeah, erm, I'll put some about half ten
[speaker001:] Yeah, today?
[Andrew:] tomorrow
[speaker001:] tomorrow, right
[Andrew:] so what if
[speaker001:] Yeah, that'll help
[Andrew:] Right, got me gotta stop at half past ten ah, I'll give you a shout
[speaker001:] Yeah
[Andrew:] and go straight in
[speaker001:] excellent
[Andrew:] okay
[speaker001:] okay
[Andrew:] er does it want to be
[speaker001:] Yes, yes it does
[Andrew:] Yeah, for both of us?
[speaker001:] Right, the... control panel erm sort of built in and erm sixty watt, two hundred and sixty watt from
[Andrew:] well if you get three amps we can [LAUGHTER] have that er, that manage it to go from
[speaker001:] yes Yes, I'll put that one down, I'll put that one down, there, I've got er I've got to clear up erm...
[Andrew:] [LAUGHTER]

[Andrew:] It might be a good guess today if I could say that most people either done as much as they could with their model... and had this erm finished, so I asked if they would help me to sort out the erm they nearly did it... brilliant way, remember I had the little labels on them... and they've all got mixed up one way or another so we're here to scrap through the remains of erm and got the wire wool and got them down and washed them, what I would like today if you would be so kind as to assist when you've finished your pottery is to re-label these, now some of you er, have already finished pottery and start straight away, those who only have the finishing touches to do, start half way through the lesson or whatever, but I do intend to give a demonstration now, so, could you gather all round you must know where all the erm if you take a and take a to your desk... and then... the trouble with is about three speed of knots going on this flight here I put them on your desk and then arrange them in the order that you know I approve. Can anybody remember offhand? So it goes, yellow, yellow ochre... erm scarlet red, crimson, that's the dark red, light green, dark green erm, sky blue, indigo... purple, brown and black a lot of people get mixed up
[speaker002:] ...
[Andrew:] I like you that I realize is very so can you see that board there? That's just
[speaker002:] ...
[Andrew:] erm
[speaker003:] Er Emma keep thy hands to thy self otherwise that the eye can induce the old custom of putting them off...
[Andrew:] The goes streamingly across there like that... put as much glue on the back as you can so that they're really well anchored down, leave the... so the outside edge of the square level with the lining, so they're not all skew-whiff. When you come to doing along on the other side make sure they're beautiful parallel does that make sense to everybody? So that's a beautiful block, now... did I explain to you lot yesterday about er, that was yesterday sorry about er collage or pottery
[speaker002:] No
[Andrew:] No, sorry about that, right, now... one should keep they would like to paint their pottery, the fact is if you initially don't paint your pottery with normal paints you paint your pottery with erm oxides which fire well, I'll explain that to you once the er, as the comes through, so if you just wait I'll talk to you again a little bit about that... If you go into the top cupboard, there's a shelf marked and right I'll take through, er, ah... put the a chemical term er difficult question, but you might be able to give me an example of one... aha Okay, that does have oxygen in it, yes, I don't think it's I think you're wrong, not being a specialist can anybody else give me an example of an oxide with that is a metal, but it's not erm an oxide metal nearly all metals have oxides... and those powderless substances on the surface of the which is scraped off and used as so called paint for the pottery, mixed with a little light which is burnt off when the whole thing gets fired in the kiln, so what will have to happen is the, your pots you've done so far, once they're thoroughly dried and go into the kiln, they're fired at a high temperature and then they'll come out this bit fired you'll then separate them with oxide pastes, dip them into glaze, which I'll explain in a minute, and re-fire them at a higher temperature, the glazed would in the heat, once it's cooled down you'll get the familiar appearance of a glossy surface of pottery, with the oxide having also fired and sometimes changed colour and that's your colour underneath, on your base a layer of colour and then a plastic surface... right if I talk about glaze, erm vitrify does, did anybody understand that? Have you heard the term before?... You've heard of glazed before yeah er I don't
[speaker002:] ...
[Andrew:] Mr sir, have you heard the term glazed? Makes it shiny, yes, what is it that is shiny? Specifically
[Michael:] The surface
[Andrew:] The surface, do you know what it's made out of? It's very similar in word
[Michael:] Polish
[Andrew:] It's not polish, it's glass, if you look at the windows, they are familiar glass aren't they? Well actually pottery is covered in a thin layer of glass, so that when your pot is dipped into the glazed solution, it's simply a suspension of silicone in water... which ride on the surface, to leave a powder, which is really finely ground up sand, when you put that into the kiln to fire at a higher temperature it mystifies it, it turns into glass, now it's in its simplest form. I'll have, have to do that later for you because you won't be doing it then, this lesson next year, and if your pots don't go up in the kiln I will be glazing for you, so of course you see the colour and everything we don't have the time to do that, it's a shame, well actually they'll look very smart just with the glaze on, but I'll try and get that done for you, okay, can you put your hand up if there is you need to do today you okay, will you people very carefully go and

[Andrew:] Kelly. You are once again doing it completely and utterly wrong. at the wrong place again. Kelly you have been using
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] Kelly, you've done it again.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] Can you walk the right way, no, now do it right Kelly. Let's see you actually do something for a change..
[speaker002:] How do you do this one down here?
[Andrew:] You should have. What else have you been doing wrong Kelly?. You've been using a brush instead of a spatula for spreading glue.
[speaker002:] The spatula.
[Andrew:] Right. Now... I hope that... only Kelly has been doing things as desperately wrong... as Kelly has been doing them. Looking around at all the there are a whole lot of people who have left the same even border all the way round instead of having an even border top and sides and leaving a bigger border at the bottom. Which you'll remember you were told to do so that there's a space For your name. Sarah stand up and come over here. Sam, will you stop doing that please my love and come across here so that you two don't. I'm using a white colour pencil here... in order to... draw a line from to the work that is being mounted on here. And you might say that the word has not been mounted on there. No it hasn't because we.... Can you see what I'm doing without me having to? Or are you baffled by what you see?...
[speaker002:] ?
[Andrew:] Mm? No. it's a demonstration and the, the line itself... is like framed within a frame. And I should imagine that the... light paper's the backing paper and that I've already glued my work on the... paper and my... my picture is already glued just there.
[speaker002:] Can I have my sellotape back?
[Andrew:] And I'm now drawing
[speaker002:] Sorry.
[Andrew:] a white line about half a centimetre from the edge of the... work being put on. Right this is a... decorative line round the sides of. Does that make sense? Just a white line. Now you can make that look even smarter by making a second white line on the outside.... And then moving the erm ruler slightly away from the border... for the second line... over the top of it which makes it thicker. So you've got a thin white line on the inside and a thicker white line on the outside. That's point one. Point two is this, that I made the bottom border there... er... about be exactly five centimetres. And I'm going to... put a guide line which is one erm er half... a centimetre from the side there.
[speaker002:] ...
[Andrew:] Yes Christine, can I help you?... I've put two very... faint white lines there in white. You could use ordinary pencil, are you alright Bruce? Have you lost something?
[speaker002:] Aye I was just
[Andrew:] You then write your name in block capitals. What's your name? Jane? J A Y N
[speaker002:] ?
[Andrew:] Yeah. So imagine you were writing Jayne here... J... now it's a very long name, Jayne and you have to put the title on there too, so I couldn't put it all in capital letters on this occasion could I? Probably that was a little bit on the, the large side anyway so... I would use lower case as well on this one, a bit like, a bit like junior school writing. Do you know what I mean?... Then it'll fit on very easily. You have to use your common sense. But you can see how a white pencil on that paper, that's going to look quite smart. Without, without the picture. So... that's the next stage. Go....

[Andrew:] Attention! Library books. All library books are to be returned by Friday.
[speaker002:] Haven't got any.
[Andrew:] Return the books to Mrs. return borrowed books in September.... So there. So, Emma.
[speaker002:] Oh sir, I've got a message for you.
[Andrew:] Thank you Karen.
[speaker002:] at the toilet. I've got a message for you as well. behind.
[Andrew:] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for two messages.
[speaker002:] And I've got a message.
[Andrew:] Thank you. Lee and Dean. Anybody seen Dean today? Thank you. Gillian, you were late?
[Gillian:] Sir?
[Andrew:] get a late slip?
[Gillian:] Pardon?
[Andrew:] Did you get a late slip?... Will you please remember to... do that for me. Has anybody seen Dave this afternoon?
[speaker002:] Gone on an English trip.
[Andrew:] Has he? Thank you.... Is?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Andrew:] Jane's here.... you here?
[speaker002:] Yes I am.
[Andrew:] Erm... James..., Karen?
[speaker002:] Yes sir.
[Andrew:] Emma?
[speaker002:] Sir.
[Andrew:] Christine and Sarah not here.? Any idea?
[speaker002:] No.
[Andrew:] Well yes, from the neck up.?
[speaker002:] on holiday.
[Andrew:] Pardon?
[speaker002:] gone on holiday.
[Andrew:] has gone on holiday, right. You may go.

[speaker001:] Sir, is Miss not in?
[Andrew:] No. Could you take your coats off please and come into the blue room.
[speaker001:] Well who's taking Miss 's class?
[Andrew:] question?
[speaker001:] What?
[Andrew:] the answer. Can you come through please. Right folks... Donald is here making typical of English in use... from schools at the moment. So if you would er ignore the presence of the microphone that would be helpful.... I intend to give you a demonstration today based on work that... Kevin has done. He's his plate with hard wax as many of you now have done. He has... varnished the back with, can you remember what sort of special old varnish it was?
[Kevin:] Straw hat.
[Andrew:] Correct. Well done. Straw hat varnish.... Now it's safe from acid attack on the back and on the front except for where he has lightly drawn through the thin wax coating using the etching. Drawn this little character and what I intend to do is put this into acid... and etch it. The actual etching process where the acid bites through the liner into the metal and makes a rule. When that's happened I'll take it out of the acid... clean it and show you how to take a print from the plate. I would like you all to try to... remember... the stages of the process because you're going to have to do, as I said to you last lesson, a small write up on this in order to get your unit of accreditation... for this work. That is to say your special certificates. Right erm... would you normally be room? Would you normally be in this room?... Is it likely that there are other pupils who may turn up in that room in a few minutes?... Or do you think that you may be the only ones?... Are they all on the English trip? Okay. In that case could you just take your coats off and put them somewhere... erm out of the way. Please. Now we're gonna be using acid... very very dilute acid. Nevertheless we have to take proper precautions. So, if you would be so kind as to get into a position where you can see what I'm doing without being too close... it means that if we do splash any acid by accident er the likelihood of it causing any problems to anyone are minimal.... Have you come to... supervise Miss 's class?... As it happens it would seem that most of those children are out on an English trip.
[speaker004:] Oh.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] Perhaps you would like to go and do your own thing. Perhaps you'd like to stick around and watch this happening because I remember you subbing once for an etching lesson.
[speaker004:] Oh it's an etching lesson is it?
[Andrew:] Yes can you remember?
[speaker004:] Yes
[Andrew:] Yesterday wasn't it? And you thought well I'd better not
[speaker004:] I'm not having them running around.
[Andrew:] That's right. I remember you saying. So perhaps you'd like to... keep them right
[speaker004:] Have a.
[Andrew:] and make sure I do it right. But on the other hand if you
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] I don't know how to do it [].
[Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Oh well I meant from the point of view of.
[speaker004:] Safe safety point of view.
[Andrew:] Safety
[speaker004:] Oh I'll stay for this.
[Andrew:] Is that alright?
[speaker004:] Mm.
[Andrew:] Smashing. Thank you very much. This by the way is er Donald who is making sound recordings of in the school today.. So swearing. Er... right my friends. As I say, I would like you to be in... fairly close proximity to where I am so that you can see what I'm doing and hear what I'm saying. Er and I don't want you to be too close. I will actually be working to start with in this area here. So perhaps you could arrange yourselves in a semi-circle just round here.... Right, my friends... we've very strange and wonderful chemicals in this erm... [cough] I do beg your pardon... when we are printing.... The one which you will have come across when we were doing lino printing was turps. We had to use turps didn't we, to dissolve the printing inks? Can you remember that, when you did lino printing?
[speaker001:] Mm
[Andrew:] But when we're doing screen printing we use very much stronger solvents... which can have a nasty effect on your skin. You notice I have slight eczema on the palms of my hands. Some of us have even worse eczema, yeah? So it's really important that we... don't irritate our skin. But frankly... it's not likely to irritate your skin anyway because er... you aren't industrial users of this... you would only ever touch these chemicals for a very short time so the... any possible side effects they might er have on you will be... greatly diminished by the fact that you didn't use them very much. If you're using them in industry, day in day out all day long, then that is the real importance of wearing protective gear. But I'm just going to demonstrate to you just... what happens. This lovely supple rubber here... is exactly the same supple rubber here at one time but now it's gone all hard and denatured because of the chemicals. So if y... if the chemicals will do that over a long period of time... to rubber, think what it would do to your skin. Does that make sense?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Andrew:] These lumps have become so erm hardened by these chemicals that I can't er pick up... the... thin zinc plate from the... tub.... I'm afraid that Mrs has gone off with, ah Mrs... I'll be very grateful if you could bring me in a bowl. You know the one you just took out?
[speaker001:] You want it back? [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] I wonder if I could have it back please? A a bowl. A a bowl, it doesn't matter which one. Just a plastic bowl please, washing up bowl.
[speaker001:] Do you want anything in it? Or just water?
[Andrew:] Er... bring it empty and I'll. Thank you very much.... I'm gonna have a... a bowl of water handy just in case.... So having put on these er temporary protective gloves. These are ones I bought long time ago.... Erm they're... as you can see, still a bit awkward but much easier to use than these. What do you think the other piece of protective gear I might need would be?
[speaker001:] Goggles.
[Andrew:] Goggles. Good. And I have a pair of goggles here but there is another safety device built into this which is this window. In fact the tray of acid will go in there... so any splashing around I might do, any upward splashing is not likely to reach. You will be relieved to know I've ordered some new... rubber gloves like this and some new goggles... for next term. But you don't need to use them this term anyway so it's alright.... The acid we use is nitric acid. It's very very dilute, only fifteen percent acid... the rest is water. And I have used this particular acid already to etch zinc.... Can't hear you.
[speaker001:] Oh. I just, I'll just.
[Andrew:] I'll see you later.... Consequently this acid now contains some zinc which has eaten it away.... there'll be a residue of zinc in there. The other metal which I mentioned to you before which is the traditional method for... etching is copper, copper plate. And I am told that it is not advisable to use the same batch of acid for etching copper as has been used for etching zinc because the... deposits of two metals in the acid creates erm an unpleasant, noxious, possibly poisonous gas and I don't know what that would do. Talking about gas, even this produces gas.... Therefore you have this machine which is an extractor. It's called a... a fume cupboard I think. A s sort of cupboard. It's open at the front. It has to be because we have to get our hands in. But it's extracting the fumes going out the window. Possibly not very... ecologically sound but safer for you at all events.... This hasn't been used for some time so it's a bit so I'm just going to wipe it out so... there are no particles or foreign bodies in there.... And this bit I do before the lesson and I do this, clean it up afterwards. You don't have to do this bit.... But notice that I'm pouring slowly and gently away from me into the dish which I shall then put in here, and I'm going to put the... the plate, which I described to you before, which has been covered with... what's on the back?... Straw hat varnish. What's on the front?
[speaker001:] Hard wax.
[Andrew:] Hard wax. And scratched so the acid should bite through there. Has anybody got a chronometer on them?...
[speaker001:] What?
[Andrew:] you have haven't you?
[speaker001:] What?
[Andrew:] A watch.... Will you time er... two minutes please? From the moment this goes into the acid.... You lower it in gently and sloosh it about so that the acid covers the surface.... Right, you may troop by that and look down there, notice I wasn't wearing the goggles that was naughty of me wasn't it? I should have been... er while I go and get a turkey feather. Okay, you go and have a look at that covered up. And try and see if we've got er... forming on the lines.... yes. That's what makes er these chemicals so dangerous, you don't know what they are.... What do you think I've got this for? Sorry, I can't hear you Paul.
[speaker001:] So that er
[Andrew:] I still can't hear you.
[speaker001:] To scrape the zinc off.
[Andrew:] To scrape the zinc off? When it's? Very good, yes. That's correct. As the zinc is eaten away... air bubbl er sorry not air bubbles... gas bubbles... I don't know what gas. Any idea what gas might be being produced?
[speaker004:] No I was trying to think it's zinc. And it's in a basin of hydrogen
[Andrew:] Zinc and nitrate.
[speaker004:] and it would give off nitrate wouldn't it?
[Andrew:] Zinc nitrate?
[speaker004:] Which isn't a gas.
[Andrew:] Which isn't a gas.
[speaker004:] It's a salt.
[Andrew:] So perhaps some odd hydrogen is produced as well.
[speaker004:] Well that sometimes happens when there's
[Andrew:] Two minutes? Right.
[speaker004:] Yeah I think the two minutes is up.
[Andrew:] David's timed two minutes. Now when that acid is... fresh and hasn't been used before... two minutes is usually quite enough for it to have done the... job it's supposed to do.... This is an imprecise... operation because... since the acid has been used I don't know how many times... because the temperature, the ambient temperature in the room varies. In the winter when it's cold it works more slowly... now when it's very hot it will, should work more quickly. Er I can't say precisely... leave it in the acid for so and so time. So we always... this has always been the case for the four... five hundred years that people have been doing etching, so they go by a rule of thumb. The rule of thumb is this... when the first cluster of bubbles is fully formed, sweep them away with a bird's wing feather. So... I have duly swept them away. Which means that the acid can get back in there. That the air bubble er the gas bubble, I keep saying air bubble, that's wrong. They are gas bubbles. The gas bubbles forming along the lines were keeping the acid out of the lines. So I've swept them away so that the acid can get back in. When the second set of bubbles is formed... it's done. That's the rule of thumb. Okay? Two formations of bubbles and it's bitten deep enough.... So I suppose that was about two and a half minutes wasn't it? So I would think that we're working on a five minute schedule. Don't forget that when they first did this, people would not have had personal watches. And there may only have been one clock in the town where they worked and that would have been on the... town hall or the church. Clocks are a very... recent er... introduction as far as ordinary er working conditions are concerned. What might have they have had to measure the time as it passed?
[speaker001:] Egg timer. Sundial.
[Andrew:] Sundial, yes. But that might not have been too convenient.
[speaker001:] Egg timer.
[Andrew:] Say it was night for instance. Pardon?
[speaker001:] One of them sand things.
[Andrew:] One of them sand things. Who knows what they're called?
[speaker001:] Egg timer.
[Andrew:] An egg timer is what we use them for now. Do you know what the traditional name for them is?... Anybody know? It's called an hourglass. Have you heard that before?
[speaker001:] No. Sir. You scratched your nose and you've got acid on them gloves....
[Andrew:] Right. I did didn't I?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Andrew:] But I [cough] I should come out in great welts soon and start looking like an American werewolf in London. Right, my face will start falling off. Quite right. You must be careful not to unconsciously... touch anything with... even the gloves. And you should wash the gloves... as soon as you've touched the acid. I should have done that straight away. Well spotted. I will do it now. Say that again Paul, please. I'm sorry Paul, I can't understand you. Something about an extractor? Yes. Yes. Yes. It might be harmful to your lungs.... It hasn't been used yet. But it's not er as good as Well that's what it says it is on the erm... on the outside.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Orange spot on me notes [].
[Andrew:] Mm? see what it was. Now it's green. That means it's been used with... copper.... We have a suspicion that... very little reaction has taken place because in fact very few bubbles have... risen to the surface. This could be... I don't think acid spends itself as it sits in a bottle does it?
[speaker004:] No.
[Andrew:] It stays the same configuration.
[speaker004:] Mm. It's erm if you've used that lots and lots of times it may have used up all the.
[Andrew:] It... may have exhausted mayn't it? Yeah. So... because it worked last time I used it. I'm hoping that it has worked this time. It's been in there much longer than... I'd normally leave it. So, it will either have not worked at all for some obscure reason... or it will have worked well and. So whatever has happened, I'm now going to remove it from the acid. I'm going to wash it. And then we're going to remove the wax coating. Okay? So I wonder whilst I do that... er if you would just take note of the... safety precautions here. Again... one should wear one's goggles, no? One should.... Notice where I've put the feather please. I've put it resting on the dish so that any acid from it doesn't get on to that bench there.... Drain off the acid. Please note if I leave any splashes on the bench. Did I leave any splashes on the bench?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Andrew:] Right.
[speaker001:] Loads.
[Andrew:] As you will. I've now rinsed that in there so it's so dilute now... that when I pour it away... hardly a trace of it there.... take a cloth and I'll clean up where I've been. You should do that every time.... You'll also be provided with an apron... to protect your clothes.
[speaker001:] Ooh.
[Andrew:] Right? So that's the spec on that. These I will dispose of now. But when we have a prop proper set of gloves [cough] we ought to put the gloves [cough] and the goggles there ready for the next person to use. And make sure when you leave the place I hope that you have washed them and you've washed those. Okay, er... yes I think it may have actually etched, we may be in luck. I hope so. Would you come over to... that bench over there.... Right folks, can you all see? I don't want you too cramped. Can you move round this side a bit.... As you can see, the wax has dissolved away extremely quickly, easily... except for that lump. Do you remember that lump Kevin?
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Andrew:] And it didn't do any harm at all, that lump. You can just
[Kevin:] Has it worked then?
[Andrew:] it has worked extremely well and you can all even see can't you
[speaker001:] Mhm
[Andrew:] the fact that there are etched lines in there. Can you see it alright from where you are? It's a little sort of er science fiction monster.... Now the turps... will not I think dissolve this varnish because this varnish is alcohol based varnish.... You have to use an alcohol solvent to remove that when we need to remove it.... My next task [cough] is to find... some printing... As you can see... printing ink is delivered both in tins and if we have any left... there may be somewhere, in tubes.... Yeah.... Or... you make it yourself.... This... powder here Right. That's the commercial name for it. It's carbon.
[speaker001:] Mm?
[Andrew:] It's carbon or soot. Right. That's right. Do you know what soot is? That's right.... Now [cough] if I were to mix some of that with another substance I could make printing ink. What would the other substance be?
[speaker001:] Water. ...
[Andrew:] Erm it would have to be... if it were with water I'd have to put something else in as well otherwise the stuff wouldn't stay on the page. It would just fall off like a dust. So if I were using, making a water based printing ink, what other stuff would I have to put in as well as water?
[speaker001:] Oil?
[Andrew:] No because oil and water don't mix. Pardon? Something to thicken it but think of stickiness.
[speaker001:] Glue?
[Andrew:] Glue, yes. You'd have to put glue powder and water in to make a water based printing ink. Or erm... a base which er dried water impermeable such as EBA. [cough] But the traditional... etching printing ink is oil based. So one would use... copper plate oil. This stuff here, which... is actually dried out but it's... you can smell it, it still has the aroma of linseed oil which is what it is. Can you sniff it?
[speaker001:] It smells like oil.
[Andrew:] It smells like oil, but not like three in one oil. I think you'll find put some solvent into it... it would erm... Meing Does that mean smelly? So I'm not going to show... don't confuse that with this which is... oil... derived from... petroleum products. Linseed oil is mostly made out of the seeds of the lin linen plant. You've heard of linen haven't you?... So, there's probably going to be a little bit of ink left in here rather than opening those. Now, don't be horrified, this is the whole point of these formica benches is that we can work directly on to them. I'm gonna put some printing ink on there. It's one of the reasons why I tell you not to sit on benches... because you'll probably find the residues of ink along the edges even after the most careful clean up. I'm going to take a, a roller... these are very expensive, very classy rollers. [cough] Much higher quality than the bioprinting rollers that we may be used to using. And therefore they must be carefully looked after.... Er these little feet here are... for the roller to stand on. Please don't let me catch you rollers on benches. Don't spread this all over the bench. You only spread it in a square no bigger than the width of the roller.... The idea is to cover the complete surface of the roller in the printing ink. You see how beautifully evenly it's taken up that ink. [cough] You keep your
[speaker001:] You've missed a bit sir....
[Andrew:] You'll fi you'll find that. Don't worry. [cough]... You know roll that on to the plate which [cough] unfortunately may still have a film of turpentine on it from when I cleaned it. Strictly speaking I should have taken it from here to where to get rid of the turps?
[speaker001:] The sink.
[Andrew:] No.
[speaker001:] Oh the chalk.
[Andrew:] The chalk, good. The chalk tray. So the chalk could have absorbed up the grease. It may take, yes it is taking. Because we've been talking for a while so... had time for it to... evaporate. Good.... The next thing you use, three scrim rags. Believe it or not one of these is the dirty one... one is the not very dirty one and one is the clean one. Now they may all look dirty to you but this one has been used less and it therefore has less. This one... has erm... taken over from the medium one. This was the clean one. This one's the third one. This one's been used a lot of times. last time this was used about two years ago so it's a bit stiff. Normally you'd find that these were quite er limp, soft. Now [cough] the method of plate is to gather the
[speaker001:] Why are you wiping it if you've just put it on?
[Andrew:] Very good question. See if you can answer the question without me... yourself.
[speaker001:] Because it runs into the grooves.
[Andrew:] Exactly so. Well done.
[speaker001:] Well done.
[Andrew:] And that is something I haven't told you at all. That when you do lino printing you are printing from the surface of the lino block, the bit you've cut away doesn't print. And that's called... erm... er a special word which I've forgotten for the moment.. When you print from the cuts that you make in the plate... it's called intaglio printing. I N T A G Intag A G L I O, intaglio. Which means putting. Whilst I'm thinking of that notice the way I into the middle of the plate. Did you see that sort of... semi-circular wiping motion. I then twist the plate... forty five degrees and then keep doing that and Paul, can you see the ink taken up on the grooves there? And I'm giving it three wipes each time. I'll be working to the middle now.... Now the rag I should be using for this... is the very dirty one... [LAUGHTER] and I've started off with the clean one [] by accident. I should have started with the... rag most loaded with ink. I should have then gone on to the next cleanest one and finished off with the cleanest one. That's what I should have done but I got them in the wrong order.... However,
[speaker001:] It doesn't matter.
[Andrew:] it doesn't matter because all of them are as it happens fairly... er new and indeed as Kevin says quite correctly, dry because they haven't been used for a long time.... Now there are still traces of ink on the surface but now you can much more clearly see the etch lines because they're full of now. The next stage is the actual printing itself. Now notice that no matter that I've been careful, my hands have got printing ink on them. And your hands will doubtless get with printing ink. What professional printers do at this stage... or fine art printers would be to take their piece of paper using little paper... fingerstalls... so they didn't get their fingerprints on the paper. I am going to be less particular, but I've got to find some paper first. Excuse me for a moment.... Right, this process that I'm about to do... should take place on that table there, normally. We have to be very methodical when we do this. Inking up on that table only. Wetting the paper, Jamie... Karen... erm on that table. Erm so I'll just move my briefcase. And before you start printing you should dampen some paper. I'm going to do a wee demonstration on how to do it now. You dip it in with the leading edge... let the water pour over it, then drain it off. Put it down, put your next piece in
[speaker001:] Is that is that??
[Andrew:] Correct.
[speaker001:] Ah!
[Andrew:] It should be much better quality thick cartridge paper, preferably handmade but that costs I think I've said to you before about... ten quid a sheet. Notice how this is beautifully covered with my fingerprints now which it wouldn't be if I was handling it properly.
[speaker001:] How big are the sheets that you get for ten quid?
[Andrew:] They are... about what you would call A... one. They're that size.
[speaker001:] Ooh. Aye but can you use it over and over again or not?... No
[Andrew:] Erm you can divide that sheet up into [cough] well using a small p
[speaker001:] Can you not use the same bit... twice?
[Andrew:] You can't use the same bit more than once, no.
[speaker001:] Waste of money eh? No it's not. What for? One thing. So?
[Andrew:] [cough] Right the next stage. You take a piece of perfectly clean white tissue paper... and you place it on the... of the etching plate. As close to the rollers as possible, just there. You place the... slightly warm etching plate, so if you pop it on there for about half a second... to get the printing ink nicely mobile... and you put it printing ink face up.... You take your moistened paper... it shouldn't be dripping wet like this, it should have had time to dry out a bit. And you place it carefully... on the printing plate... so there's lots of spare paper round it because the essence of a good etching is that it has breathing space all the way round. You don't... crop an etching to it's edges. You now place the
[speaker001:] Sir.
[Andrew:] What? In there?
[speaker001:] Aye.
[Andrew:] Don't worry about it. I'll explain why in a minute.
[speaker001:] But it's straight not...
[Andrew:] found to my cost in the past. So you put it under both like this. Thanks for... mentioning that. You'll see that the pressure... is... must be quite enormous and produced a raised section there.... Erm you peel off the... tissue paper and you have your first print. And of course it's the
[speaker001:] Ooh
[Andrew:] the wrong way round isn't it? All printing is. So you must remember if you ever put any lettering on when you're printing that you must write it backwards.. Right so that, it's a bit grey isn't it? If you wanted it to be a perfectly white background then you would also use bits of white tissue paper for a final polish on the surface. And if you watch this technique, these
[speaker001:] Sir
[Andrew:] Why do you think you put tissue paper on the... on the erm base of this?
[speaker001:] Soak up the linseed. So the varnish so the varnish doesn't get scratched?
[Andrew:] So the varnish doesn't get scratched. Good point. Anything else?
[speaker001:] In case any ink runs off the side?
[Andrew:] Mhm. Good one. To protect it. to protect the... steel on the. Use the, that part of your hand to polish... the surface in a circular motion, like that. And as you can see, even after three print I've managed to lift off quite a lot of scum from the surface. Consequently that would print... pretty clean. We've cleaned that. So, Paul was worried that I hadn't put it in straight weren't you Paul? Didn't you mention it? You said
[speaker001:] Oh aye.
[Andrew:] I hadn't put it in straight. Yeah. Well it's perfectly true. It's very hard to to gauge when it's in straight. If you leave plenty of... selvage round the edge, later on you can crop that slightly so that it is a perfect ninety degree. That's basically it. And that's the way you print whether you're doing hard wax, soft wax or aquatint
[speaker001:] ?
[Andrew:] Very good. I'm glad you mentioned that. You should take at least six... prints of every impression. We haven't got time today I don't think Kevin? Can you check the watch again?
[Kevin:] Ten past.
[Andrew:] Ten past, and we finish at?
[speaker001:] Twenty five past.
[Andrew:] Twenty five past, right. I will... I I will say to Kevin yeah? Take a print, see if you can do it. But, remember... these are wet so you have to leave them out, flat to dry. And then of course we sign them up later. And I'll have to teach you precisely how to sign them up. You must also learn how to clean up after yourselves. Mrs clean er... tables for you when we've been doing... now you have to do it yourselves. So I will give you a bit of instruction on how to do that now. You will take one of these blocks... you will wet it for a certain time... and you lay it on there. Get the roller and roll it on there so it'll dissolve off the ink. Yes?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Andrew:] Then you would erm do it again with a clean one so that this ended up looking as clean as that. You have to pay attention to that part and that part too. Then you would... take the same rag and wipe that off... and then the piece of cleaner cloth, bit more turps, clean the desk. And you put all the equipment you have used safely back in the correct tins and on the correct shelf.
[speaker001:] Sir?
[Andrew:] Wear those. It's not very nice to wear them because you get that is the end product. Thank you for your attention. If you'd like to go into the next room, please. display I have to put out. No. You need one sheet... you put that on there. ink your plate up and put it face up You don't need that one. Well,. But ink it up using the rags....

[Andrew:] [sigh] Well we're keen to get here aren't we?... We're in the right place I suppose?...
[speaker002:] Mm....
[Andrew:] Aha... Well they'll be asking the rest of us to take a cut in salary soon....
[speaker002:] Well if I can [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] Ha ha ha ha nice one.... And don't say it....
[speaker002:] ... Well if they're not here in five minutes I'm going.
[Andrew:] Quite right.

[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Erm can I also introduce you to the fact there erm Maureen I will explain briefly about er Maureen's presence here. Longmans, the well-known publishers are producing something called the spoken corpus which is er a... a record of the way in which English is used.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Erm which Yes... erm the... the aim of the exercise is to record several millions of words of spoken English and they translate them into erm a work
[Geoff:] I bet she's a friend of yours.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] and are translated into a work for academic and study for the purpose of general knowledge about the English language. Erm I took the liberty of saying yes to Maureen to come along and record the language debate. I must stop using my words so carefully.
[Geoff:] Yes
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] And erm
[speaker002:] Shh
[Roger:] it is anonymous. It's merely recording the words we use are taken down on a... scrap of paper context I don't but used. The the there is nothing
[Geoff:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] and... erm and erm I would really formally ask the board if, if there is any objection to our deliberations being recorded and taken down and... used for another purpose.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] If there is anything that comes up and one feels sensitive about then... then we can ask for them to switch the machine off.... Maureen...
[speaker002:] Okay? Thank you. If I could just put it over here because it'll be... I think I, I'm a little bit far away over there. Would that be okay? Yes. Erm I can possibly...
[Susie:] Yeah, put it near Roger, he does most of the talking.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I did gather that. If if I co, if I could just put it... there
[Roger:] Right.... It doesn't record does it?
[speaker002:] Mm?
[Roger:] It doesn't record nods does it?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No there's no camera.
[Roger:] Right.
[speaker002:] Right. And if I sit here tape runs out I'll see it and click.
[Roger:] Right.
[speaker002:] It's running now. Thank you.
[Roger:] Well we don't have to pay attention to it and er it's not necessary to record every word is it? You want a selection of things and
[speaker002:] We'll just pull out
[Roger:] We don't have to speak at it or anything.
[speaker002:] No, not at all.
[Roger:] No, no. No.... Right. To the agenda. Erm apologies for absence. Erm... er... er Mrs, Jackie is not coming. Er I think he's in London he said. Or at the metro centre I'm not sure which.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Somewhere down south anyway.... Anybody else? No?... Oh yes, yes, sent his apologies, right.... Er minutes of the previous board meeting.... The sixth of May.... Take them matters arising that aren't on the agenda.... Minute by minute.... So if anybody has anything they wish to raise perhaps they could raise it as I mention the minute.... Ten ninety two... eleven ninety two... twelve ninety two... Well can I just say that the the process of replacing er people on maternity leave is progressing. Andrew has been appointed the temporary administrator. He came from the er amongst other things Inland Revenue and er... very welcome addition to staff and er has quite a, a good grasp of many... er sort of national bodies and institutions and so on and is very helpful, and is settling in very well and well-liked. Erm the other posts... interviews are progressing. We have made as we intended to do, if you remember we er advertised widely in accordance with our equal opportunities policy, er for that post but also I think in accordance with equal opportunity we wanted to give people the er chance to develop their range of skills internally for some of the er... lower grade posts and therefore er initially... the other posts er have been advertised internally and we filled the temporary er assistant administration erm... post er internally. Er that is Deborah who is er works in reception. Erm... and we are now moving on to fill the senior customer services post. Er we did... erm er go through the selection procedure with internal candidates but were unable to appoint, and so therefore are advertising that in the press in the normal way er although both candidates have been told that they may reapply. Erm and then there's, there will be obviously a knock on effect in erm depending on who's appointed. And that's proceeding according to plan....
[speaker002:] No more pregnancies to report?
[Roger:] Not as yet, no.... Three's quite enough.... Erm minute... thirteen ninety two
[speaker002:] Twelve three actually
[Roger:] I just did twelve ninety two.
[speaker002:] I see.
[Roger:] There weren't, you want, yes?
[speaker002:] that one.
[Roger:] Oh yes. Right so twelve three er just to report that Channel Four have actually er renewed their sponsorship for the film festival yet again. Er
[speaker002:] still got to be there for it.
[Roger:] Well, but they did say in their letter
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] that this will be the last year because er from next year... well irrespective of whether they're sequestered... I hope our sponsorship money won't be sequestered with it but
[speaker002:] That's a good word to use.
[Roger:] It is isn't it? Yes. We use it a lot in these meetings don't we?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Er [LAUGHTER] that irrespective of their se sequestration [LAUGHTER] and other ations erm... or isms... er they are going to sponsor us this year but not in future.... And erm the only other outstanding sponsor from last year was Northern Rock and that has been a bit of a qu a problem because... er it's, we haven't had a closing gala event which might attract them but... just recently erm Paul who as you know performed last year with his band so er... well er... is, had rang me and said that they are doing something in Venice and they could in fact take the boat to Hull rather than to Dover and bring it here and I'm, so I'm... working on the assumption that we might have that. It's a film called Seventh Heaven which is about a love affair in the sewers in nineteen twenty seven. Sewers of Paris, incidentally, in nineteen twenty seven.
[speaker002:] Oh that's alright then. [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] And it's wonderfully, wonderfully romantic and I think therefore may suit er the board and guests of Northern Rock... er very well. Er and hopefully I can attract them to that. We'll have to see if we can or not. I don't know.
[speaker002:] If not we'll try Northumbria Water.
[Roger:] Yes [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] good idea.... Thank you. Erm... thirteen... one.... Th there isn't a erm a note on this one. Do, do you want to discuss this now or later?
[speaker002:] Well... we
[Roger:] Under attendance report?
[speaker002:] well I, yes. Come to on that one.
[Roger:] Right.. Thirteen two... fourteen one... fourteen two... which you're reporting on later.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Roger:] Fourteen three.... Yes I erm... I... would like to point out that we are looking er very closely at the sales and I've just had a report on my desk from the head of finance which is the beginning of the discussions in the management team on er... the sales erm and relation of loss of sales to profit and so on and the... now we, the shop is in that position we've had time t we have more time to assess how things are working out. We shall be analyzing that and I shall be reporting back to you in due course.... Fifteen... sixteen one... will you be reporting on anything here?
[speaker002:] No....
[Roger:] Later on?
[Geoff:] Erm...
[Roger:] anything you want to...?
[Geoff:] Don't think so. Erm... yes, there is one thing there. Not later on, I I'd like to do it now. Estimates were sought to replace the refreshment counter and erm... indeed we went ahead with one of the estimates and the firm then went bankrupt in the meantime which erm... I imagine is something Colin that you're well used to.
[Colin:] Occupational hazard these days.
[Geoff:] Er so there will be er... a loss to us there of about three hundred pounds because erm... we... were asking for something to be made and therefore I think... I would say quite rightly... but in view of this experience perhaps never again, er made some advance contribution, you know to the cost or made some, gave some money in advance... blah blah blah. That erm... it might be wise or advisable, I'd be interested to hear your views Colin and others perhaps even council... procedures, you know on, on how far you can go in checking out... er... because I mean, you know... you get something which tells you what was happening three weeks ago. And actually we've had a very full report from the auditors which makes extremely interesting and somewhat hilarious reading. I suppose er... thank goodness we didn't er invest any... further money in their operation. But I mean really... if the auditors don't put, point out some of these things... like the level of directors' salaries and the level of erm ongoing deficit and blah blah blah which now come to light, I don't see really how we can ever hope to discover them. But it
[speaker002:] Well I mean it it... I mean it happened in circles in, in the Oh yes I wasn't er in the civic centre there was, wasn't there a case where... leisure services... bought er terribly [LAUGHTER] It's a touchy subject that. Oh right. It was some such very similar situation but it involved a lot more money than you've lost. I hope I I er yes. In in that connection I think perhaps what we could usefully say [LAUGHTER] just by way of comparison for rough guidance that there is a regulation or or something like that which says, if I remember rightly, that... erm... er... payments must not be made for either services or goods not supplied... above a figure of two thousand pounds without er being taken to committee first. Mhm. council discretion. So there is a check built in to the, to the council procedures. Which you Mm. you might like to think of. Not the figure of two thousand I suspect Yes. but a figure appropriate amount. Well we do have in front of us don't we, the paper Mm. about... the financial controls and erm....... But erm... It's it's an irrevocable situation is it? Presumably... the materials that were bought not... are still there. The receiver's got to dispose of them at some stage. Mm. Did the assets all disappear?...
[Geoff:] Er without going back to the report I have no i I I can't remember the... the fine details. I mean you know... I'm just reporting to you er I mean I don't think it's worth
[speaker002:] list of creditors.
[Geoff:] considerable discussion.
[speaker002:] We'll go on the list of creditors and if there happens to be any payment at the end of the day you will
[Geoff:] That's right.
[speaker002:] get a proportion of it.
[Geoff:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I doubt whether there'll be penny in the pound.
[Geoff:] There won't be... secure creditors like banks and so on will get
[speaker002:] The only thing I would say is never pay for anything in advance, particularly construction.
[Geoff:] Yes.... Mm.
[speaker002:] And especially in the current climate.
[Geoff:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And if they ask you to it probably means they're in trouble anyway.
[Geoff:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Geoff:] Yes I think that's wise advice.
[Roger:] Yes.
[Geoff:] Well I mean... you know
[Roger:] Well the minutes perhaps you'll you'll... we will pop that on to our comments and others.... Erm just briefly erm the adjustments to the toilet for the disabled... and the
[Geoff:] Yes they've all been done. However, talking of fascia... you know I mean this is er... we could make it er something else then happened which is a lorry went into it. So er... and ripped off some letters blah blah blah, so that's ongoing, you know it's going to be replaced and the er people who did it admitted liability... and so forth.
[Roger:] You will notice we are now the Tynes Tynesid inema. No joke
[Geoff:] Something or other
[speaker002:] Is that project now finished or does this retain the
[Geoff:] Yes... it is apparently, yes.... And so therefore I think it would be appropriate er... to deliver to you the report of Summers and Partners... for your information.
[Roger:] Yes, thank you. We'll have that for the next meeting.... Yeah... Erm sixteen two... we will be discussing that... draft. Sixteen three... sixteen four.... What did you decide?...
[Geoff:] Well, I decided really, or we decided I suppose to er link it to the festival. Er and therefore erm... I think we'd like to... to some degree wait and see a bit still because er... I think that... you know economic circumstances of this particular moment mean that we may... just have to consider that further of seeing how... things progress really between now and October. I certainly don't think with the sort of product we have at the moment that there will be any possibility of raising prices before then because I mean, you know, there just aren't any... really films which are going to grab people. Er but at the festival it is an appropriate moment. Whether we would go to the full two fifty I think will have to be... you know we'll have to wait till nearer the time....
[Roger:] Right. Erm... can I... have the proposal that that was a correct record of our deliberations please? Thank you John. A seconder?... Thank you Susie.... Agreed?... report.
[Peter:] I wonder if we could ask we could take the other reports first... chair? Er attendance
[Roger:] Yes
[Peter:] report and [cough] the management accounts because there are a number of things which have since, since these... minutes er completed and we'd like to bring up in the report but er... I think that we'd be... as well to look at the
[Roger:] I have no objection....
[Peter:] And if we took the attendance report first, in relation to that then we can look at the... material presented in the way to which you're accustomed. But... in response and how fortuitous that er Colin is with us today
[Colin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] in response to er particularly Colin but other people's requests for... ah Hello, yes. Er...
[speaker002:] I've just missed hearing my name taken in vain.
[Peter:] Again?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Peter:] Will you be able to share papers because er... erm and therefore... those papers which we're about to discuss, you had your admissions if you brought your papers with you... yes? Sorry I'm just, can I just sort this out before I go any further?
[Roger:] Yes.
[Peter:] Admission reports you had in the papers sent to you. Well... Roger. And what I'm saying is we're just reversing the... we're going to do the attendance report, financial report and then the chief executive's report because there are a number of issues which I'd like to raise within that. And, in respect of the admissions report, er as you will recall er Colin and others thought that perhaps more information might be useful or would like er to see different ways in which the computer reports er on the er... information
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Peter:] erm... and yes, sorry er
[speaker002:] yes.
[Peter:] and I'm therefore gonna hand round these... wodges of alternative... erm... material.
[speaker002:] I've got one of those
[Peter:] You can see on the front what is on offer. They need to go right round. And I wonder John, yes.... Right
[speaker002:] That's right, if you send it right round. a copy. Right, we're alright. You want some. There we are. Susie hasn't got one.
[Roger:] I wonder John if you would just like to introduce er Jenny to the board.
[John:] Well Jenny is my colleague under the new department of published and broadcast arts. Joined on the first of June and is each other initially to and also as a general of what goes on. And then we are to allocate between us so responsibility.
[Roger:] Jenny you're very welcome.... And and we... yes, I'm not sure whether we're published or broadcast, I think we're probably narrowcast aren't we?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Never mind.... Well I hope fairly broad on these figures but er... So what we have here er as I understand it, is a... broad series of options
[Peter:] Yes.
[Roger:] as to the information... that can be produced by our computer.... And really... erm it's a question of what... board members would find the most useful and erm... and...
[Peter:] That's right. On the front of those options which are numbered in red there is a break er there is an in you know explanation of what is there.... Clearly any or all of these are possible but erm... er... naturally you would understand that if you had them daily by film you would be having... you know ninety pieces of paper er... and clearly that may not be appropriate at times... well times, you know hundreds by the looks of it now but usually times ten at least. Erm... and any of these things could of course be brought to a meeting to be referred to. Erm the thing which we keep daily is number six, is it? Number six which is the thing that we... have to look at. Er this is the end of the day report and that we keep in a file and they, they could be brought. And that would give you all the information... erm on a daily basis which could be referred to erm... performance by performance. What you have now is an extract if you like. In other words it's a new... it's something which is not done directly from the computer but which is using information the computer provides. It then erm... is made up into this chart by somebody. I would like if possible not to do that any more, cos clearly that is just a duplication of material already elsewhere available. And if it were possible for you to decide that one of these... options, one to eight, were to suit your regular and usual purposes... at these meetings for general discussion then that obviously would be both a saving in erm time and labour and is one of the reasons why one installs computerized equipment so that you don't er then have to do it all manually as well.... Obviously I would be very... loathe to agree to have to now provide different information again other than that which is... going to be readily... er available through the computers. But of course could do so if you so wished....
[speaker002:] It doesn't tell us how tall individual
[Peter:] No. I was worried about that and er... I think that's because it's a German system and everyone is assumed to be over six feet anyway or... six feet wide or something....
[speaker002:] whether this stuff is available on retrieval because... it seems to me what really matters are the trends. Er I don't think one would ever have the stomach to go through all the detail. And even looking at the figures we get now, I mean others here will take a great deal of interest, one's interested in knowing where you're going and what's, you're looking at those figures yourself anyway. I would expect to get the broad picture and highlights and examples of. And that's what I would have thought was proper for the board to know about. I think beyond that you're getting to very detailed analysis which will take a lot of time, either yours or ours. And I would, I would, I would erm give the minimum and preferably use your own references. I think if you were to use another sheet altogether it would be... for me at least unnecessary work.
[Peter:] I think first of all we have to satisfy ourselves don't we that we're... erm fulfilling our cultural obligations... cultural policy. Erm given that that is the case, what is, what is the next thing that we... we need to know? Are we making the most... of the films that we show? Are people... er responding to good films? Er, one of the things it won't tell you on here, whether it's a blazing hot day, whether there's snow on the ground or whether it's just pouring, dull and people... are coming along. So there's, there are a number of variables which we, we will never know about.... But I think Colin your main concern wasn't it that perhaps we weren't... hitting the right slots and...?
[speaker002:] Use of plant I think was one of the things you were concerned about?
[Colin:] Sorry?
[speaker002:] Use of plant I think really, wasn't it? One of the things.
[Colin:] Er er... it was where break even points were. And what level of attendance was required to actually break even on a performance. And I don't wish to know if we've failed to break even on one occasion or whatever but the thing is... how often are we failing to break even. And... looking at that in relation to cultural policy. Now is there a connection or isn't there a connection? The other thing that concerned me was particular slots which don't seem to ever produce much in the way of attendance or revenue. And whether we had to keep running those slots. And... I agree I don't want to wade through everything but I, I think we need to lay down management information criteria, and only receive information if it's necessary on, on those headings. I E do we need to know that... the trend is changing or do we need to know the particular slots where we get non performance. And I appreciate and I mean I've discussed with you the, the complications or... you've got to keep open certain hours because you've got a catering facility and you've got certain members of staff and you've got to keep projectionists occupied etcetera. But... it did, just my, my... quick sieve every time we got these there always appeared to be a slot... where it didn't seem to me to be worth being open and and operating
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] because it was such a disaster every time. And... while you were, while you were using a film which you had in anyway for the next day's performance and putting in that slot
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] it was still costing to stay open and operate.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] Er I mean they're the kinds of things I'm interested in knowing. I don't want to know the, the... intricate de well... sometimes I personally do, I'm interested. But I wouldn't have thought everybody... would, would want to wade through it at all times. I I'd like er to personally take this away and have a think about it.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] There's a lot of, there's a lot to absorb here and er... I wouldn't want to make an immediate reaction.
[Roger:] Yes, I I... I I've had these for a relatively short period of time. Erm my, I haven't had the time to really absorb what is in them and obviously the board would feel the same. Erm... perhaps if, it might be useful if... er members took it away?... And thought about it. If they had the opportunity of er... looking at it, seeing what there is to be learned. Er if there were holes in the information or whether... really whatever... board members... feel and erm we can consider it at the next meeting.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Roger:] It's obviously not, not of of er... not of a great pressing... not a very pressing matter. It's something which we can... have the luxury of considering.
[speaker002:] just following what, what I raised earlier on chairman. Is it possible, supposing you decide you want to have a look and see how well the two o'clock showing if there is one as such
[Roger:] Mhm Mhm.
[speaker002:] Can that be summed, can you... can it do bars back analysis
[Peter:] Erm
[speaker002:] from tapes or whatever it is you hold on.
[Peter:] Oh we do hold the information. I would need to check with the... erm... er computer manager... you know which fields are takeable, you know how, I don't know if you know computer re how computer records are stored but every piece of information like erm the admission figure, the title, the distributor will be a field and I presume if er any information like the time is in a separate field then you would be able to have a report by fields. If you understand that.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] Erm so therefore I would say... in er theory... er my understanding would be that yes we could know whatever... you wanted to know about particular fields like every two o'clock over a period of a year or whatever.... Erm... I couldn't er you'd, I'd need warning of that of course.
[speaker002:] Well obviously if, if we take these away there might be questions. I mean it's exactly how you do it with television what, what changing patterns are there.
[Peter:] Wh what I mean to say is I couldn't in advance guess which field it was that you were going to want at any particular moment.
[speaker002:] Oh no no no no no.
[Peter:] Do you see what I mean? Because you would want one I hadn't got. Erm but I, you know if you said... I think you see, I think what Colin's raising is a very interesting and important issue and I I naturally... you know as a senior manager I'm concerned about it. That's what... you know running any business or organisation means. You are concerned to fulfil every... requirement or factor in relation to erm er you know the principles which that particular body or particular requirement lays down. Either those of the market place or of those of funders or of your own cultural aims or equal opportunities or whatever it is. And so therefore at any one time we are working, I mean that's what we do, you know we are working at one particular area. It might be say at equal opportunities which we've worked at a very great deal over the last year. Clearly you can't expect admissions of people with disabilities er for example, taking one aspect of that er cultural and er that policy, to be high if... you know the building itself is physically inaccessible. So that has to be worked at and then you, you know, would begin to look at whether that has any effect on your admissions and so on. And, you know, along with marketing and so on we are, we're continually looking at all aspects of that. Now my, my unders my er... erm... thought would be that in reviewing the management accounts in general and the admissions in general you are keeping a wether eye on that. And I... you know should be and I hope am alerting you to areas where er you know we are falling short. Or where we are concerned or putting in extra work and so on. Erm the particular issue which Colin raises is a very important one. Erm... and er it could be that we could look at that. I mean it would be interesting to do that. You know, er given enough time and preparation and if we define clearly what it is that we want to analyze, you know I can provide that information er in the form of a report or in a rawish state and we could discuss that. For example you know like erm is it worthwhile opening a cinema at four o'clock would be an interesting question. And at the end of the day quite considerable... potential changes could arise from the results that you might deduce. For example, you know currently, you know our shift pattern with the projectionists for example, you know is generally when they're not on holiday that they're in at er ten o'clock and they work through till eleven. Not the same people, but you know that's the shift pattern. Erm and therefore... of course there's maintenance and preparation and all that sort of thing. And at the end of the day you would be into relating what people do in their job descriptions to whether you were getting value for money from those members of staff. And you'd be into time and motion and so on which I'm sure Semina you could erm... appreciate and comment on as well. And yes it erm... I mean and therefore we would be reviewing current practices which is that erm you know the film is in the building, the cinema is open, the staff are there and we therefore show a film at four o'clock because there's no extra charge for us doing so and we hope thereby to attract however many er patrons to see it. And of course we're offering a service of allowing people to choose to come at four rather than six and we are making ourselves accessible to single mothers who perhaps can't come out in the evening etcetera. So there's a whole range of things there which we're doing. And at the end of the day then, you have to weigh up whether or not you decide that even though, if you like in the strictest financial terms, it is not profitable to open the cinema and to employ staff doing that although presumably they'd have to be employed doing something else unless you changed their rota patterns... nonetheless because of your... the demands of funding bodies, your own cultural aims and equal opportunities policies, you've decided that you will do so even though it's going to be marginally a loss in financial terms. But of course that is a discussion which would be quite proper and er... for us to have and for the board to take a view on and er for funders to comment on and so on and so forth. Er and it could be done. But what I would say is that we should perhaps... er... er you know identify areas where we think we might erm... where discussion would be fruitful and then we could marshall the information if we, if we wished to. I mean you know, whatever it is that you you you would want I could do er in theory. Given enough time to prepare it. And therefore any trends or any queries er which emerge from you know whoever erm can be examined and erm... discussed.
[Colin:] The only, the only other thing I mean, the other thing which occurs in my mind and you know, as you know it isn't thought through and I want to look at what statistics are now available... is I mean the question of... increasing shortage of good product.
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] Which seems to me to impact on the same thing. If we're not gonna have such a good range of product, and we've already got some... what might be dud slots
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] er and is that gonna become an increasing factor as, as we continue down the shortage of product. I mean it just seems to me an area which I think I would like to have a bit more information on. I'm not saying, I'm not drawing any conclusions until I know but I'm saying I think it's an area that is perhaps worth investigation.
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] And I would be interested just to know how many performances... don't actually break even. And is there a regular pattern or is isn't there? You know is it completely variable? Or are there certain slots, are there certain times, certain types of product.
[Peter:] We did... if you remember Colin we did... erm produce some figures about break evens er which I gave to you and
[Colin:] Yes.
[Peter:] which are in the minutes. But of course to some degree you've got to decide what you mean by break even in the sense that er how do you actually... I mean that
[Colin:] take the subsidy into account or not.
[Peter:] Yeah. And how do you proportion... costs and so on. And we
[Colin:] Yeah. I appreciate that.
[Peter:] we came up with a number of figures. Erm... and clearly you know they are of some use. Er and at the end of the day you have a figure which you then can offset against what you think your corporate aims and er your other commitments in policy terms. Erm... and I think that it is a very useful exercise to discover which things you know fall below that break even point and which things are therefore if you like internally subsidized or which we do for one reason or another. And you might well argue of course that if you are subsidizing films which have no cultural merit or whatever then why we are doing this and that, that would be a question to... to ask. But erm... I feel perhaps we should do it at least over a period, you know rather than
[Colin:] Oh yes.
[Peter:] you know er
[Colin:] Er that's what I'm saying. If we, if we decide what it is we want to look at... and there is a consensus on that and then you look at it over a period of time and see, and see what's revealed by it. And whether it varies or whether it's consistent. Whether a particular pattern's in there. Er... but I mean basically at the end of the day, I mean you have to think about to what extent you can increase your sales.
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] To what extent you can increase your subsidy. Erm... and sponsorship. And er to what extent your fixed costs are inevitably going to continue increasing.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] And somewhere in there... it may be that something's got to give perhaps. Erm and I don't know whether that's the case either but I think all those factors are rolled in together in terms of future strategy. And er... those are the terms I'm thinking. But I mean I'm just speculating here at the moment.
[Peter:] Yes. I, I mean I think, I agree with you and er clearly these are management concerns. I mean these are the things which you know are our, are our daily er exercising daily our minds and erm
[Colin:] I mean all, all we go back to is
[Peter:] acknowledges
[Colin:] is when I first raised my question on that... with all those things at the back of my mind, I wasn't finding that... as we used to get it
[Peter:] No.
[Colin:] particularly helpful. And so
[Peter:] No.
[Colin:] we're obviously now in a position where we can do a great deal more in terms of analysis.
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Colin:] Which is I think where we finished up last time that when we've got the stuff on computer we can
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] reinvestigate.
[Peter:] That's right....
[Roger:] So we'll leave it at that that we erm... the... chief executive will be happy to receive your comments, reports, feelings. I'm sure he'd welcome phone calls if there are things that er...
[Peter:] Yes I mean basically we need to first of all decide, I think this is what we're deciding in the first instance, which option for the provision of information you find the most helpful. That's the first question to be decided. We can't do anything beyond that... at this stage cos we first of all need to have the information. So that's the first question for you to think about and reflect on. When we've reached that, we could then think what way forward there is with this er more efficient... a provision of information... for analyzing it. But I don't think we can really er get to that stage beyond this first one. So I'd be very grateful therefore if er you could put your minds to the options and erm... we could discuss that at the next board meeting.
[Colin:] Can I, can I just say chairman, finally for point of... clarification in case there's any doubt about it... I'm not looking to turn it into the, into an absolutely like efficient business you know and everything succumbs to that. What I am certain about is... that there is a long term future for this cinema and that we're aware
[Roger:] Yes.
[Colin:] of what needs to be done to en ensure that while pursuing the cultural objectives.
[Roger:] Yes. Yes. I agree entirely.
[Colin:] I'm not looking for it to make, make a profit,
[Roger:] No.
[Colin:] be super efficient, it's just that... there is a chance of keeping going without too
[Roger:] Yes.
[Colin:] without having a crisis every other year or whatever.
[Roger:] Yes, this is exactly one of the reasons we had a crisis last... last time... was because... erm we didn't know... that the then director I'm sure didn't know what, what was happening. The information wasn't... either wasn't available to him or was not understood by him and he wasn't able to interpret it for the board. And we didn't see the warning signs and then when we had this serious situation it er... it it nearly... it nearly swamped us.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Do we, do we... want to go all this in the minutes?
[Roger:] I'm sure you would er sensibly produce minutes which don't offend anyone.... Er may I also say, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply because I would certainly like to think we were super efficient.
[Colin:] well pleased
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] I'd hate to think that that wasn't an aim... of management.
[Colin:] I think it... yes well, let let's get that clear as well.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] I think you know that I think this cinema is well managed.
[Roger:] Yes but it was an aim which I'm sure... I I... would, alright alright
[speaker002:] Point taken. it's a good aim. I mean I I... support that aim.
[Roger:] Right well let's look at the... the accounts then. The financial report.... Erm first quarter, April May and June... have those....
[speaker002:] We haven't got any.
[Roger:] Has everybody got those? You've got them?... Erm... has everyone got them? Yes? Has anyone got two? Are they lurking in front of anyone?
[speaker002:] two different ones. One's
[Roger:] Ah.
[speaker002:] one's called Tyneside Cinema account budget ninety two.
[Roger:] Yeah that was last meeting. Sorry, you've got the last
[speaker002:] Does that, does that belong to the previous...
[Roger:] Yes. The previous minutes.
[speaker002:] Minutes, right. Oh right, yeah.
[Roger:] The one we're looking at now is April May and June. Do you have those Susie?... No. You don't. No,.... Has everyone got them?... Good. Now erm... April was a good month. And May was a good month.... June was much less.... At the box office, this is.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Erm sorry, I must say
[speaker002:] Given financial financial reports.
[Roger:] I will finally change that to ticket sales. I'm sorry that this word box office keeps occurring. Which is one of my pet hates....
[speaker002:] Erm sh should, we we're entering a... a slow period traditionally. July and August.
[Roger:] Yes, June nationally... national figures of cinema attendances in June were down forty percent. Forty percent.
[speaker002:] On June last year?
[Roger:] On June last year.... Which is a lot. Which is a lot. And er
[speaker002:] Ours held up. Well, they were down but... were they down?
[Roger:] Yes, they were down by... six thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds. Er I'm sorry, seven thousand five hundred and fifty five on budget but... they were down. Most certainly.
[speaker002:] And down on the previous year?
[Roger:] The previous year by about er four and a half thousand.
[speaker002:] On twenty thousand
[Roger:] Twenty thousand last year er budgeted on twenty two this year, fourteen and a half.
[speaker002:] The weather the weather was very good wasn't it?
[Roger:] The weather was superb, yes.
[speaker002:] I think you'll find all retailers and caterers was, were down. Not as much as forty percent but er they were down, yes.
[Roger:] You see the British cinema summer is different to the American cinema summer. As you know American cinema installed air conditioning in the fifties and that re erm late fifties, early sixties and that re revived the American cinema er... because people don't go abroad so much in America. They tend to er summer in America... and go to the cinema whether they're on holiday or not. But the air conditioning did revive the cinema industry and therefore the summer is geared to new released in America which is not the case erm in er...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] er this is not the case in Britain which is traditionally a very slow period erm for releases. And erm... we therefore er... experience with our particular audience mix, generally a low July, a very low August. That's usually our lowest figure.... Erm... the overall picture as you can see in June is that we revised the budget to show at this moment... if this trend continues a deficit of two thousand pounds. I... you know how conservative I am with figures and er... with advising you as to what may occur I'm myself relatively confident that erm we shall meet our ticket sales target by the year end and that there will be no as there... as there's been... in previous years since er the aforementioned not to be noted er crisis. Er but er this is the position as it is now and I I've taken the conservative position as always.
[Colin:] Just a matter of information erm on on
[Roger:] floating incomes?
[Colin:] No, on on the revised budget do you just take them on strength or do you do something a bit more sophisticated?
[Roger:] Erm we're doing something a little bit more sophisticated. Which is that we discuss it and see that it would be reasonable to do that.
[Colin:] [LAUGHTER] Right.
[Roger:] Er but not much more sophisticated than that. But we don't just simply press a button.
[Colin:] Right.
[Roger:] We... all these figures are discussed and we take into account the previous three years. And we take into account what we know about product up coming which isn't always a lot. Erm... and so forth....
[speaker002:] A question I would ask is that given the product which you had in June and the fact that presumably you have to take what goes, presumably the fact that they don't send you the strongest stuff... erm are you surprised that the figures were down in view of the quality of what you had, or are you surprised it might not have been worse?
[Roger:] I think... I'm rather surprised they might not have been worse. Erm if we actually look erm and I don't know if we did introduce to all members Bryony who is my assistant and who works very largely on the programme with me and on the educational and events side, and is acting minute secretary while Judith is on maternity leave. But I think Bryony if you er... also comment, but the films that we had in June like Rebecca's Daughter... erm... and Until the End of the World... erm and... erm some re-runs. They weren't particularly... stunning were they?
[Bryony:] No, films like Rebecca's Daughter didn't have reviews. And cos they didn't have huge national publicity. They weren't very good films really.
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER] Basically [].
[Bryony:] yeah.
[Roger:] Yes. They had erm, what was it?
[Bryony:] comedy
[Roger:] Peter O'Toole dressed as Elizab Elizabeth the first. I mean they... you know. And it was a film which really was ill-conceived and quite frankly ridiculous. Apart from My Private Idaho which er I thought that might have been
[speaker002:] a re-run then?
[Roger:] Yes.
[Bryony:] Mm.
[Roger:] Er apart from that really there was nothing very strong at all. Until the End of the World was... dire. Er
[Bryony:] And was three hours longer
[Roger:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Well obviously the customers chairman are sensitive to what is actually being shown. They don't simply come through repetitive habit do they? I mean they
[Roger:] Well some do, thankfully.
[speaker002:] Ah.
[Roger:] Well that's a different matter. That's a cult issue.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] But I'm very interested to learn that on Monday when er the Autobus didn't... Erm... you know, do come along and er see if it made er what difference it made, no I'm being a bit facetious, but erm there are some people who come anyway. There are some people who obviously come at the weekend more to see whatever it is we're showing. But clearly the majority of our audience is rather discerning and er... is making decisions based on erm a whole range of factors to do with the information they receive through marketing and... publicity.... Right. Ticket sales. Erm any other... points that er... a board member would like to raise or the chief
[speaker002:] No no. Not at all.
[Roger:] the chief executive would like to... draw to our attention?... Anything er alarming in... alarming trends in here?
[Peter:] I don't think so. No.... Is that lost next door?
[Roger:] Er it's upstairs. I'm afraid I can't identify it.... Mm?
[speaker002:] ?
[Roger:] Oh it's ju, yes.
[speaker002:] Can I ask why the education income is, is. Is that, is that a sort of er... is that an accidental er do you do you get what comes in through
[Roger:] It's the worst time of the year. Most educational income comes between October and April.
[speaker002:] Ah. So although the budget is two thousand that's what, a cumulative budget or a share of the annual budget?
[Roger:] Which, currently? Er... three thousand er three hundred is what er we had budgeted to make by this time.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Roger:] Er this year we actually made three four seven but we're still thinking that we will make two thousand pounds.
[speaker002:] ...
[Susie:] And in the income does hire refer to hire of this room?
[Roger:] Not only this room but the cinema itself.
[Susie:] Right.
[Roger:] Erm and again the key times for that is usually September to April.... Right. Yes?... Thank you very much. Erm... your report.
[Peter:] Well if I may... raise a number of issues under that report. I don't know when it is that you'd like to take this. Whether this is an appropriate moment?
[Roger:] Yes, I think
[Peter:] But since we've
[Roger:] Let's let's get that sorted. The erm financial...
[Peter:] Er I just have a horrid thought... Oh that was sent out to you wasn't it?
[Roger:] Yes.
[Peter:] The statement of financial procedure. Good, sorry, just had a thought it wasn't. This is something we discussed and thrashed out last time?...
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Peter:] And... should... be adopted now unless there are things, further things you wish to discuss. Or members who weren't here or... but we did... talk this through in some detail. We took advice from our funders and er we looked through this er... on a previous occasion. It is meant both to set out extraordinary expenditure which was how it arose but at the same time John pointed out that it might be a good thing if we also had an indication of the routine procedures... and so therefore they are now set out in one document... and are... for your er final approval.... I read them and they seem to be er... a a direct record of what we'd er... agreed.... There is actually one emendation which I put in... er... just to ex sort of er explicate still further. Under emergency procedure... I put in the words... in the second line, after having made every reasonable effort to consult with the chief executive.... Really to protect... members of the management team who might have made a decision. If you remember the screen was slashed by a phantom... lunatic. Well not a phantom lunatic but by a lunatic. Well it wasn't, I mean this is an example, sorry.
[Susie:] Oh right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] But if it were if it were to be slashed or erm you know and er... on Monday evening we would have to get a screen... we would have to replace that screen immediately. If I were you know unaccountably in the south of France or elsewhere or wherever you know... in Dundee... erm and not available.
[speaker002:] The south of France is more likely.
[Peter:] Ha! Would that it were. Would that it were. Erm but I think that I, what I felt was that I should have the right to be consulted and that every reasonable effort should be made to consult me. Because... as indeed er... has happened er... sometimes... the real emergency is not that of equipment. There is a tendency, I I hope not of er this management team but... there is a tendency of some people who... who might be employed in future to feel that solutions... can be obtained by purchasing and I'm not always convinced that that is the case. Sometimes there's an under underlying reason of staffing difficulties or disciplinary or whatever, which might mean that new equipment will not be the answer.
[Roger:] Well I there there was a... a classic example of this during the refurbishments when the contractors had left the building unsecured over
[Peter:] Mm.
[Roger:] over a weekend. And er the decision had to be taken to bring in erm security guards
[Peter:] Security guards.
[Roger:] only. You were there as it happens.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Roger:] You were available but you... later on won't be.
[Peter:] Mm. Mm.
[Roger:] And I think that would have been the... the classic situation where we would... We've got a procedure now for dealing with it and I think this covers all and I... unless somebody wants to... further debate the matter I'll er I will propose that we adopt these... the financial regulations... for the er... Tyneside Film Theatre Limited. Could I have a seconder?... Thank you, Susie. All in favour?... Great.
[speaker002:] Could I ask a
[Roger:] Yes.
[speaker002:] complementary question? And it doesn't affect the procedures but... four refers to pay cheques. And I I wonder whether we should infer from that whether all staff or a number of staff get a pay cheque
[Peter:] Mm.
[speaker002:] as distinct from salaries paid into
[Peter:] True.
[speaker002:] their bank account or building society accounts. Ah, yes.
[Peter:] We don't do that. But some are paid in cash.... Er... mm.... Pay cheques or slips?...
[speaker002:] If they were slips they wouldn't...
[Peter:] I don't think I'd
[speaker002:] they would decide whether they want cheques which.
[Peter:] I don't think that, I'd
[speaker002:] It's signing the stubs that is
[Peter:] Er... yes. It's it's to do with signing of cheques. The chief executive in two is answerable... these are monitored by the... so that some staff are indeed paid in cash. That, those are the only two alternatives. Either in cash weekly or by cheque monthly. There are no direct debits or... into building societies or anything of that sort. Because we, we have a large amount of cash which it suits us to get rid of... rather than take it to the bank er to be added up and charged for cash handling. So erm... I I, I mean I can understand that we have a... a specific need to er... address the member of who signs what cheques but I think the matter of... cash... is covered by two, the chief executive is answerable to a board for financial matters. These are monitored by the board's scrutiny of the monthly management accounts. I mean you must have a lot of cases whereby... where, where you are actually... perhaps er er... a taxi needs to be paid for to take
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] somebody. Well that's cash out. There must be lots of cases where you are actually... paying the window cleaner cash in hand or something. I I assume, I mean obviously there are routine matters which are paid for and recorded erm in the normal way. Is it, does that
[speaker002:] Is that alright?
[Peter:] still cover your point or not?...
[speaker002:] Not, not quite. The real question is... why, why don't we pay staff er... direct transfer into bank accounts? Why, why
[Peter:] We don't wish to.
[speaker002:] You you you... you half explained anyway. You actually have the cash turning over
[Peter:] We don't wish to because it is not financially sensible for an organization which is cash rich to take all the money to the bank. To pay the bank daily to do things with it... and then to start adding to those costs which a bank charges by using all these sophisticated methods when we can in fact do what most staff want, which is to give them cash in a little brown envelope on a Thursday.... I mean I think it's, I mean I I have personally asked this question a number of times and pressed for everybody to be paid properly... in inverted commas, I E monthly, but this is an assumption... about a certain lifestyle and a certain way of budgeting which er I don't think we have necessarily... the right or, you know it's not necessarily our
[speaker002:] Oh it's got to be the choice of the er
[Peter:] And most staff actually prefer cash weekly. There's only two members of staff who are paid monthly by cheque and I'm one of them.
[speaker002:] That, that's fine as, as long as cash handling to salaries does not give you an additional security or handling problem. I think you've covered that by... indicating the nature of the cash handling for the whole organization. I mean I've learned something.
[Peter:] Mm. I don't think it does in that erm...
[speaker002:] How often do you handle it?
[Peter:] I, I really don't know. Three times a week perhaps? Twice a week?... I'm not sure.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] No I mean our, our bank handling charge is is very significant.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] Yeah. I mean if you bank every day it costs you a fortune.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] But I would have thought you could have got away with banking once a week.
[Peter:] I don't think it's quite once a week cos the weekend which means you have quite a big build up on a Monday which you want to get rid of. Don't want in the building.
[Colin:] Well we only do it twice a week.
[Peter:] I think it may be twice a week. I mean I
[Colin:] I mean you did a big, you need a big safe.
[Peter:] you know I'd, I'd need to check with Frances precisely. And it varies. I don't think er I mean you know there are certain s we're covered to have certain sums in the safe by insurance and we don't exceed those and so on. I mean you know... I could find out if you'd like to know.
[speaker002:] Yeah isn't, you you're much more labour-intensive than we are aren't you?
[Colin:] Well I would think our takings are higher than the cinema. In general.
[speaker002:] No! [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] And we get away with twice a week.
[Peter:] But you possibly have security and so on?... Extra security? Or you may use a firm even?
[Colin:] Well no. Well the the money's collected by a firm and taken to the bank.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] And that's another reason we only do it twice a week. [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] Yes. Well we don't do that. We do it ourselves. We did look into Securicor but it's far too expensive.... Erm... right. The next thing er which again er is er... a detail of something which is already approved and it is merely than in our conditions of service during our discussions with the city er personnel department we noted, or they noted... as it had arisen that we indicated the route to erm sick pay over a certain period and before a certain period but not the detail of how you got there. And so we've merely spelt that out on the second page of our standard conditions of service. And erm er that is for your... er for you to take note of and er to.. formally to approve if you would.... You have these standard conditions of service of course?... Oh. Already because they've been approved by the board. Has everyone got one now? No? Yes?
[speaker002:] One more.
[Peter:] One more.... These you have, and these have been approved. I'm sorry, it is getting rather hot in here. Do we have the keys to that... I think it would be wise. Yes. If you wouldn't mind. Well if you want to just ring and ask someone to bring them.
[Bryony:] There won't be anyone there.
[Peter:] There won't be anyone to ring,.
[speaker002:] We are... addressing which
[Peter:] Er we are looking at page... erm
[speaker002:] hundred.
[Peter:] er well it should be page two but in my er haste I may have... I notice mine is in the wrong order. But anyway you want the... heading sickness.... And we're just looking at the route to... In the previous er conditions of service we merely mentioned... the time for which you weren't entitled to sick pay and the time after which you were entitled to full sick pay which we defined, we didn't define the route. I've now defined the route taking advice from the city personnel... service.... So you just need to look at that
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Peter:] those length of service stroke related sickness pay.... Agreed?
[speaker002:] Right
[Peter:] So these conditions of service then are those which apply to all current and future staff. And these conditions apply from the first of April of this year. All members of staff have standard conditions of service as set out here, with the exception of temporary staff or staff who are er... on a short time contract or maternity leave cover who may have a short term er notice er... erm for erm... a period of notice. And with the other exception of the chief executive who according to his er conditions of appointment has a three months notice period. Everyone else... sorry this is the er... security blind. Everyone else has a standard period of notice. And everyone else's contracts are therefore according to these conditions of service....
[Bryony:] Okay?
[Peter:] Thank you.... yes. But if you, if you're in a draught Jenny or John, say so. But it does help us to get some
[speaker002:] I'm not in a draught where I am I can assure you.
[Peter:] get some air into the building. The other period erm the other thing I would like your advice on erm... did you, you didn't note all this? Oh I'll give you all that, it's alright. Er the other thing I'd like your advice on is that the coffee room's franchise... er is due for renewal in nineteen ninety three. And according to the erm agreement which I made with the franchisee... in June eighty nine erm... his rent is also due for review er this August. Now erm I E now. However, the... er holder came to me and said that they, he would like to invest a considerable sum in new equipment, refrigerators blah blah blah. And so therefore, as we did in our case, would like... erm some indication o er of whether or not er he could... and this was his suggestion... er give up his current lease which runs out next year and take on a new lease with us... for a period. Erm and accepting that would mean er obviously an increase in rent and perhaps changes in that lease er in order that he would be able to er to invest that money. Now this is clearly something which some of you have great erm knowledge and expertise in such as Colin. And I'd be very grateful for your advice. For what it's worth [cough] my own advice would be that we... I erm as you remember, increased the rental for the er coffee rooms from four thousand pounds when I er... took over the post of chief executive and er to seven thousand five hundred in July eighty nine and we've increased that yearly to a sum of twenty one thousand one hundred and fifty pounds per annum er from the first of August nineteen ninety one. Erm... my advice to you would be that in the past, before the coffee rooms was run by this particular... person... firm... we had very great difficulty with them and I'm sure John will bear me out on this. And in fact the coffee rooms not only were not profitable but I think at one time were even subsidized by the directors' own pocket which just how balmy some people can be. Erm that was in Sheila 's day. But it never was profitable. Indeed was er er I think a thorn in the flesh, to say the least. These people have hit on a formula which seems to work. Erm er... in my opinion they are a very good tenant and a very good person to work with and they certainly are very cooperative with the cinema. Erm I could of course and will of course erm take advice as to whether the rent we're now charging them is reasonable. We do have to bear in mind that our... rent has increased er our own rent to Morgan Estates and so on. And this... you know is acknowledged. But my, my view would be that I would er... you know investigate this fully and er come forward with a recommendation, but that... er my own... er thought would be, and I I now take your thoughts, that we should not... get ourselves erm launched into a very big, massive erm... you know operation of advertising this franchise afresh and going through the whole procedure. Erm... particularly at this time. But that we should continue with this particular person. But I would say that we should obviously look at the financial... aspect of the review erm dates, which might be yearly. We should look at the length or the term of the new franchise which should perhaps be limited to three or five years. Er whichever could be negotiated. And we should look also I think perhaps at some quality factors er which might be written into the lease since there are some... some things which I think we're all less than satisfied with er... you know customer complaints and the way they're dealt with. The time it takes to be served and a number of things. And of course all that is a play-off against you know... keeping that franchisee er involved and keeping them feeling that they can still make a profit. And that, you know, not tying them up with endless pettifogging regulations. But I think there are a number of things er which would need to be taken into account. What I would say overall... sorry, if I may just add one further point is that the coffee rooms makes a profit and pays its bills very promptly to us. It is not necessarily the... always I think that the type of operation which a certain... sector of our audience would necessarily want. I E it doesn't always serve the food which they would like. Particularly, you know it has to be said there is a particular age... class background and so on and so forth. But that it does satisfy a need for a vast number of, of people who may be rather younger and poorer than er we who sit here. Er and erm that is of course a large section of our audience also. So... er I don't think we should attempt to shift the coffee rooms into you know a nice health food, vegetarian, upmarket... restaurant which might suit us because it, it thereby wouldn't fulfil its function which, from our point of view, is to provide a service and
[speaker002:] I think basically they're doing... the job that the public want cos... they're successful.
[Susie:] They're always busy. I mean yeah if you come
[Peter:] Yes.
[Susie:] come in the middle of the day or whenever you know they'll be busy. It's amazing....
[Roger:] Well it is quite true that if you come to eat before you see a film... you have to ask if they can do it in time.
[Peter:] Mhm.
[Susie:] Yeah, and sometimes they've said no. I, I've been here before and they've said ah... sorry it's gonna take ages. [LAUGHTER] I mean you know. I mean at least they're honest but er... [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] I think if you're happy with them... but there are some minor points... there's, it's going to be a new underlease is it?
[Peter:] Sorry?
[Colin:] It's going to be a new underlease.
[Peter:] They would give up this current one and we would
[Colin:] Ah well it gives you the chance to get, to increase the rent if you er... but if you're happy with them as operators... er you can boost your income for the year. Er I wouldn't be as generous with them as our landlord was with us.
[Peter:] No. Certainly not.
[Colin:] And if there are elements of the operation that you're not happy with er... if, if there aren't any catering regulations in the underlease well you can introduce some.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Colin:] Which will then gives you a chance to control their operation when you're not happy with it. So... as long as you you're thinking that they're doing okay and meeting the market demand.... Er you could improve the terms. Get er an increased rent earlier. Get some regulations imposed on them. I think it's a good idea.
[Peter:] I mean I think that my principle desire is that they pay their er they contribute to our income and pay their rent regularly and are able to do so. Er together with, if you could tie those two together, providing a service to a section of our customers. They don't clearly provide a service to all our customers. Erm and
[speaker002:] They never will.
[Susie:] That would be difficult.
[speaker002:] They never will. No.
[Susie:] Yeah.
[Peter:] erm but they do provide a regular and safe income.
[speaker002:] Well, nobody ever does.
[Susie:] Yeah that's right.
[Roger:] But there are particular areas like this, you having to wait a long time and... if you come into the building to go and see a film and you've... you've left an hour to, to have some food... you, you really shouldn't be missing the film because
[Susie:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I mean, I would imagine that they can pr, they can... with your assistance, create something whereby they can say there will be a meal and it will be
[Colin:] If you make that part of the lea the
[Roger:] You can try without persecuting them er t t to a degree which makes it not worth their while being in the business. I mean Yeah. but if they have a, if they have a... some sort of fast food provision in the menu with a limited choice.
[speaker002:] As long as
[Roger:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And he could say right, you want a mea right... Well, stuffed baked potatoes.
[Peter:] My view is that this has to be negotiated with them and I would be very loathe for us to start imposing erm
[Roger:] Yeah. I think what you've t what you've taken from us is the view
[Peter:] Yes.
[Roger:] that there is a concern about the ability to eat here immediately prior to seeing. They're may not be time
[Peter:] Well one person raised that. Yes. Two
[Roger:] Well just, you know if they... if they were sensitive to that sort of thing. I mean I'm I'm... I know to ask
[Peter:] Yes.
[Roger:] when I come in if I can have poached eggs on toast and see the film, you know. The trouble is er But strangers don't there is no way there is no way there is no way of ensuring that our No no. this requirement is ever met. Yes. I know it So this is the problem. If we start laying down so many things. I agree with you. Yeah. And I think the quality, and that is one of the quality of service, quality of er route of complaints and so on. I would like to see those things built in. But even though they guaranteed to provide every customer who had allowed three quarters of an hour er for a meal, you know, you would have to lay down in very great deal wouldn't you? You may have a poached egg but you not have a poached egg with... rice.
[Peter:] I'm not considering, no. I'm... I, what I what I'm seeing
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] what I'm seeing with this is the opportunity of raising particular issues
[Roger:] Yes.
[Peter:] if we're going to enter into a new lease with them.
[Roger:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Of course.
[Peter:] By er failing even once to meet a reasonable demand for a... for something to eat in a short period of time, then there's a knock on effect to our business. And I think that's something which we have a right to... to raise with them. So erm erm
[Susie:] They might not be aware that er there is, you know, that there could be customers who
[Roger:] Yes.
[Susie:] who haven't been promptly served
[Roger:] the building.
[Susie:] Yeah exactly. They might, they might not be a hundred percent sort of... aware of these things.
[speaker002:] Can I suggest that they probably simply do not know, they work in a particular way, a particular level. And I suspect that if we offered them counselling from cater good catering advice on how to maximise their market return they'll do it because... I wouldn't hang about for a meal if I knew that they wouldn't give you a meal in fifteen minutes, I'd go and eat somewhere else.
[Susie:] You er
[speaker002:] There's no shortage of fast food
[Roger:] If you allow, if you allow an hour for a meal... in the coffee rooms
[speaker002:] Well that's that's that's good for a isn't it?
[Roger:] you might just catch the film.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Okay, well er if the market, you know you're, live in a market world. If it gets a bad reputation, people won't come and they will suffer. I think the interesting thing is is the five card erm... is, is the brag you play or the... poker you play and how much to raise the ante.
[Peter:] Yes. I mean the point is
[speaker002:] He's doing alright isn't he?
[Peter:] you
[Colin:] As I say it's all gotta be subject to you negotiate with him
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Colin:] but if he's not willing to pay a market rent.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] Well then you're gonna have to say farewell.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] Yes. I I
[Roger:] Don't they also have problems with the, with the er the drinks?... You know, I mean
[Peter:] That's a licence question.
[Roger:] how many people have walked out because they... they can't have a drink.
[Peter:] Well they can't. It's a licence
[Roger:] But with, you know, people with their meal or or
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] someone who doesn't want a meal but just wants a drink... but all the rest of the people are having a meal.
[Peter:] Well they can't.
[Roger:] I've seen loads of er
[Peter:] Yes but they can't. And that
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Peter:] that's the law.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Peter:] We can't ask them to change the law. They could apply for a bar licence of course. That's another issue.
[speaker002:] There is a bar licence attached to this building.
[Peter:] Club bar licence, alas.
[speaker002:] Club bar licence.
[Peter:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] But it might not be a bad idea to go down that route to see if we can... we can see if it can be exploit it at this stage because we have discussed, and I know this is getting off the the... the... the agen
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker002:] agendum [LAUGHTER] agendum but erm [LAUGHTER] I think No but it's not about giving them too much advice. I think
[Peter:] Yes.
[speaker002:] what the fact is that the place is packed.
[Peter:] They succeeded.
[speaker002:] The fact is that many majority of people know that it Yes. takes a long time.
[Roger:] See a lot of the people that come are students who've got, who have got time
[speaker002:] Fact is that
[Roger:] that sounds awful. But yeah they have got time available
[Peter:] The point is I think that the prime thing to remember is that the... the the the s the customers in the coffee rooms are not necessarily customers in the cinema.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Peter:] That is the fact of the matter.
[Susie:] Mm.
[Peter:] And I'm afraid there is no way you can... you, if you try and force the caf to be more a sort of caf that people who come to the cinema will patronize then it will not make a profit in my view. It never did. If you actually allow it to be a caf in your premises which hopefully will also satisfy... some of our customers then apparently it will make a profit. But I'm very loathe to attempt to force it to be something other than that which it is. Because that which it is is profitable. But I'm also very anxious that we receive a full percentage whack of those profits and as you can see I, over the years, I've been very assiduous in ensuring that we do move towards that position.
[Colin:] That that's er a straight rent is it?
[Peter:] I don't understand that term.
[Colin:] Well it's a straight rent. What what
[Peter:] Except in
[Colin:] what I was going to suggest is that we should s seek to negotiate with them a turnover rent.
[Peter:] You could.
[Colin:] A base rent or turnover rent
[Peter:] Could try that. Yes. You could try that. What I don't want to get
[Colin:] So as they increase in sales
[Peter:] Yeah, of course.
[Colin:] or as you increase the customer at the cinema which increases their sales, you take a share of it.
[Peter:] That is... okay when things are going well of course.
[Colin:] Ah we have a base rent.
[Susie:] Yeah.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] Which you get anyway.
[Peter:] Mm.
[Colin:] Whatever happens.
[Roger:] It would be a way to get faster service wouldn't it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] Yes I mean those things are possible
[Colin:] it encourages it encourages them to increase their business as well you see.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Peter:] What happens if they were to say no though in a negotiating position and they just we'll, we'll go. You know we've actually got somewhere else and, and so on. I mean yes of course I know, I know about negotiation but
[Colin:] but that, that but that's the whole thing I'm saying. Er you, you want to keep them because you think they do alright and
[Peter:] Yeah.
[Colin:] pay you on time and all the rest of it.
[Peter:] Yes.
[Colin:] So what you do is you open negotiations with them on a new lease.
[Peter:] Yeah.
[Colin:] And you see what improvements you can get.
[Peter:] Yeah.
[Colin:] And if they're not prepared to pl play the game or pay the going rate well then you review it and think... how far do I push them on this?
[Peter:] Yeah, yeah.
[Colin:] And how far do I not accept what I think I might get in order to remain on good terms.
[Peter:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I d I don't want this to be minuted but I, I think erm... we are aware of Susan....
[Peter:] Is this a papal pronouncement?
[Susie:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. It is a family organization.
[Colin:] It's a mafia, a mafia
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes? And erm... we are we we
[Peter:] Is that good or bad?
[speaker002:] Yeah it's... very good. I mean we may not necessarily be talking about the... the the reporting procedures on turnover which would enable us to assess a rack rent in in in the
[Peter:] Oh I see.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Mm. Ah well you've got a computer system now which is wiser than anybody here. [LAUGHTER] Or you have
[Colin:] Well I mean you know turnover, turnover rents can be run without a comp without a computerized till. You just insist you have access to the books at any time or... you send your accountant in to check.
[Peter:] I wondered if there was a
[Colin:] Everything has to have a till receipt. You can check the till rolls which have to be kept. I mean there's plenty of ways of doing it.
[Peter:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Erm I was wondering if introducing that might make a... Yeah. be making them changing their way of operation which they might find... unattractive for reasons
[Susie:] Yeah.That's right
[speaker002:] which...
[Peter:] Yes.
[speaker002:] perhaps we can go into. As, as they are a family operation.
[Roger:] You don't need to... minute that.. Anyway [cough] Yes. Well can I, can I, can we leave it perhaps that erm we, that the chief executive has received the er good advice of the board and will negotiate... on the basis of the surrender of the
[Peter:] Yes. Would you like me to report
[Roger:] old lease.
[Peter:] to whom? I mean, would you like me to do this or would you like me to report. I would prefer to a committee of people who have experience
[Roger:] yes.
[Peter:] er because you know, if we wait till the twenty eighth of October... er that... you know, won't suit their purpose which is that they would like to get on with this so they can invest in plant... renewal. I, I would prefer
[Roger:] Well we could do
[Peter:] to take advice, particularly from you Colin and from anyone else. John? I don't know, or anyone who feels...
[Roger:] Shall we do the F and G P route?
[Peter:] Right.
[Roger:] Er where we'd inter-coopt er Colin on to the F and G P for that... so you get the opportunity, thank you very much, you get the opportunity of reporting... to us what, what you've done. So we can say yes. Or or
[Colin:] Can you let me have a copy of the... lease... as soon as you can?
[Peter:] Yes. Thank you.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Erm right so the... we agree to delegate to the F and G P the... of the existing lease and the taking on of a new lease... underlease for... the coffee room, tea room operators.
[Peter:] Thank you. Erm.... What would you like next to address?
[Roger:] Distribution report, that's about it really.
[Peter:] What?
[Roger:] Distribution report?
[Peter:] Er yes. Erm Roger's very keen on this. Erm
[Roger:] Oh yes.
[Peter:] oh as I think I mentioned last time we have had a marketing er survey undertaken. Particularly in relation to distribution and when...
[Roger:] Publicity material, not of films.
[Peter:] Yes. No of our... our marketing and publ print and so on. When that's settled... you know through the various committees, well various. Through the management team and erm when marketing had a chance to reflect on that I, I'll report back to you what our thoughts are. And indeed the the report of course is available if anyone would like to read it. It's a very good report, which was done by a... graduate student from the university of Northumbria on placement and er involved a lot of field work. And I think it's a very fine piece of work for which he received a first class mark... incidentally.
[Roger:] Good.
[Colin:] Er the university of Northumbria or Newcastle
[speaker002:] Is that Newcastle brackets Carlisle campus. [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Right yes I am keen on that because I think er one of the keys to growth in our business is to... attract more people and... to attract people you must tell them that we're here and what we're doing.. I think that... I think it's a a good first step. Erm, equal ops?
[Peter:] Er nothing to report on that. Er... I I've already reported on the maternity leave cover provisions....
[speaker002:] Is that a standing item on the agenda?
[Roger:] Yes.
[Peter:] It is. Yes....
[Roger:] Erm... so er
[Peter:] Oh actually sorry, if I could just add a little bit to that.
[speaker002:] No, no need to add anything further, thank you. That's all
[Peter:] But I will nonetheless now you've
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] now you've jogged my memory. We are putting together... a... systematized er... body of documentation which
[speaker002:] Foreign word.
[Peter:] Alright, an appalling word. We are putting together the documents and er accompanying er notes on recruitment selection procedure which will be followed in all cases in the cinema. It will be an ex expanded version of that which... er we had further, we had earlier approved in our equal opportunities policy. But much more detailed and as a result not only of about twelve days' training which we've undertaken in that area with the management team, or various of them, but also of our experience over the last eighteen months in operating it. And I, we've been complimented on a number of occasions on that procedure erm by various public bodies. Erm and we are now, if you like, putting it into a form which anyone... can use irrespective of whether they have done the training. Although of course we'll continue with training everyone who's likely to do it. But, as in the case say of a temporary administrator coming in he'd be able to or she would be able to take up this file and use it. And it covers, I hope, most eventualities. Erm and I will bring it to you finally when it's in a form to be adopted as the procedure which this... board will use... erm either, you know, or delegate er the chief executive to use in the case of any appointments.
[Roger:] Thank you.... And under any other business are we...?
[speaker002:] Well just
[Peter:] Yes. Erm er I'm
[speaker002:] equal ops
[Peter:] proceeding... with... erm investigating the er educational dimension of the cinema, it's funding and staffing. Erm... we... used at one time as you remember to have a full time education officer and er for a number of reasons er that er is no longer the case. We certainly have not ceased erm to undertake educational work and erm... I do from time to time er do a number of reports on that work for er our funding bodies and... er recently I've done a report requested by Northern Arts, for the Arts Council I believe. Erm a cultural diversity report which lists for example the events or and film erm... which relate to erm that aspect of our policy. Erm... courses, events, day schools, special screenings programmes er educational marketing back up and so forth are always, are a central and crucial part of our work. But erm it is my design at the earliest opportunity to erm... extend er that work through more specific and increased provision er... with er current er staffing erm levels erm... borne in mind. I'm at the moment negotiating with a, a previous sponsor an S K Bearings Europe Limited who have a plant at Peterlee who are very interested in looking at erm supporting our educational provision. And there will be opportunities to apply for support from the British Film Institute and elsewhere... erm in order that we can expand er what we're doing in that area and I, I just wanted to let the board know about that and to say that erm... er... this is the route that I'm currently taking and erm I will be reporting to them when there are specific developments and that I hope that you approve of er me attempting to expand our provision in this area....
[speaker002:] Good.
[Roger:] Thank you. Any... questions?... Any other business?... Could I just remind members of the board of the next two meetings... which are at the bottom of the er a a agenda and were given to you previously of course. You should have them in your diaries but... as we have such a full complement this evening, can I just draw those attention er to your attention. Twenty eighth of October and the annual general meeting on the second of December....
[speaker002:] I would... also actually, briefly... under any other business... you have the days of the the the dates of the film festival?
[Roger:] Yes. The opening gala on the third of October, Saturday. And the closing gala on the eighteenth of October, Sunday....
[Peter:] Can I also draw your attention to another date which is the Thursday the seventeenth of September which is the regional press launch for the... fifteenth... international Tyneside film festival. Some of you I know are working but some now Roger are people of leisure... and will therefore... I hope er be able to find more space in their diaries to quaff the glass of er cheap wine and er raise it... indeed.
[speaker002:] Beer.
[Peter:] Of expensive beer, and to raise it in our er support.
[speaker002:] Where's that held?
[Peter:] That is here, at this cinema and er usually consists of a film show and erm... er presentation and then of a buffet lunch. And we really are very pleased to see you th at that... erm Thursday the seventeenth of September.... Er it will be at ten. Ten till two or something like that. It's also very good if board members can attend to er... not merely to support the staff er and to celebrate the event but also, if necessary, to talk to the press or to... er engage er with guests and so on and so forth. Er it would be much appreciated if you were able to attend....
[Roger:] Any other other business?
[Colin:] What a brave person you are to let a board of trustees loose on the press.
[Peter:] Well we we we'll have an army of people to stand by you and guide you and
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Peter:] nudge you should you say anything.
[Roger:] Notwithstanding there being thirteen people round the table I do not propose to wash any feet and I call the meeting to a close.
[speaker002:] Where do you get them Roger?
[Peter:] Eighteenth. Sunday the eighteenth of October....
[Roger:] Thank you very much for your kind attention ladies and gentlemen.

[Cathy:] No
[Jane:] No, right
[Iris:] Ah
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] they won't do
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] they won't do a thing for the children in their old blind school because R B E A have got so much money we don't put our
[Jane:] Yes, aha, yes
[Cathy:] money into the school
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] cos there they can do it themselves
[Iris:] I agree they shouldn't buy the tickets because they're the
[Jane:] They shouldn't
[Iris:] ones that have provided us, have a go at
[Cathy:] They are loaded they're loaded
[Jane:] Well there is other things they do want you on special, er pantomime before the school breaks up you know
[Cathy:] They of course
[Brian:] Mhm
[Jane:] perhaps we could organize it or something
[Brian:] A target one for kids and one for
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] A standard audience
[Cathy:] We should get back to R B A, they're the ones who supply the equipment
[Robert:] Yeah
[Brian:] Mhm
[Robert:] they've got one of them
[Cathy:] and that, none of their children go, maybe, maybe that's a way
[Iris:] Absolutely
[Cathy:] to do it.
[Robert:] Well I think that would be worth looking into
[Cathy:] Yes
[Iris:] Right, definitely
[Robert:] if Brian could make the sort of
[Brian:] Oh contact the
[Iris:] Oh yes that's a good idea
[Cathy:] Yes, yes get a letter out and come back to me
[Robert:] What about, to go back to the idea of scheduling and things
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Scheduling, yes
[Robert:] I mean
[Cathy:] Yes Doris is seeing to that
[Robert:] the difficulty is is we need a mechanism, but the
[Cathy:] Yes
[Robert:] difficulty is we, what we I think need to do is, is establish who is actually arranging dates
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] I mean, I think we're stuck, we're obviously stuck with a on the sixth
[Jane:] Oh yes, yeah
[Robert:] and the thirty nine and that
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] for the variety of reasons, but I think what's obviously important is if there is any more date arranging going on
[Jane:] Yes, yes
[Robert:] by whoever
[Jane:] Mm
[Robert:] that there is that sort, kind of, everybody keeps in touch with everybody else erm
[Iris:] I think that's diff you see I, I don't think that's possible for everybody to keep in touch with everybody else, I think you've got to have one person, that everybody looks to, to say, right
[Cathy:] All the dates are centre that, one person is that one
[Robert:] I mean it could work on that basis then, that if, for example, I'm just thinking about, well just from my point of view, when i was arranging that date in Stirling with the Oxford people, I could of said well, Thursday's okay with me is it okay with you until I've checked with
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] whoever it is upstairs
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] kind of thing
[Iris:] Mhm and provided it's only one person it's not that difficult
[Cathy:] It's not that difficult
[Iris:] It's not you see because every person
[Cathy:] Have to check it with everybody
[Brian:] Yes, you'll have to buy a chart for that one person
[Jane:] Yes, the only thing is that, that in, in each city now
[Iris:] Mm
[Jane:] well Glasgow and Edinburgh anyway cos
[Iris:] that's the other thing now
[Jane:] you need perhaps someone in each area to be coordinating
[Iris:] again yes
[Jane:] all the de you know, because they've got the describers, whoever is in charge of the describers knows when they can spare people, oh no I can't do that week because we've
[Iris:] Right
[Jane:] already got tied up
[Robert:] Yes, that's right
[Jane:] so it really has to be the person in each city erm who then gets together with a general coordinator.
[Brian:] For this in Edinburgh there is a sort of a forum where er organizations are set themselves round the table and say this is what, the sort of idea that we're gonna do for the next year and a half
[Cathy:] Right
[Jane:] Mhm, yes
[Brian:] so that we don't clash with each other statistically
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] So you don't have
[Brian:] so we could take it from that stage even
[Cathy:] Aha yes
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Yes that's, that's it you see
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Brian:] I've been trying to spot room for that
[Robert:] Is this what's erm
[Jane:] Try and take it back a step yes
[Iris:] Aha
[Robert:] As a kind of clash diary
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] but it's also linked, I mean the other thing that I've got at the back of my mind, is a kind of nightmare, is that when we were talking about the Festival around about March... that you know, we spoke to Ingy er you know as a group and then that was all fine and we kept er going along and then, and then there was that sort of dreadful phone call I had from Linda along the lines as I'm not sure if I've got any describers [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] That's right, because it's August
[Cathy:] Oh yes
[Robert:] because it's August
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] you know, part of me was thinking well just a minute you know this service is if blind people can offer describers, but on the other hand people are entitled to go away on holiday
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] Exactly, mm
[Robert:] and so you know it is a sort of, I mean it's exactly what Iris is saying it's a meeting with minds in a way because we need to know that, that
[Jane:] Yes, because in that case you could of, we could of drawn in people, describers from Perth
[Robert:] Yes Connie
[Jane:] who knows next year we'll be, we say Glasgow or
[Iris:] That's right
[Cathy:] but, but people should also be aware that the Festival is always in August [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] Yeah quite
[Jane:] Exactly, yes [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] Yes, and, and I'm prepared to, I mean
[Cathy:] And these people all live in Edinburgh
[Jane:] Yes exactly
[Iris:] That's why they're all tired
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] Rent out their houses
[Cathy:] That's right
[Robert:] I mean I was thinking that you can actually with Linda actually you know because I loiter Linda today's meeting obviously
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] She was on holiday
[Robert:] and you know
[Cathy:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] I thought that was lovely
[Robert:] they said she was on holiday, you know, erm and you know, so I mean
[Jane:] Mm
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] maybe this year because it's you know the first kind of year of it
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] and maybe next year people will take their holidays another time
[Iris:] Mm
[Robert:] but there are all these kind of variations to build into this problem, I mean I don't know we could, I feel we could almost talk, talk around this for, for hours
[Iris:] Mm
[Robert:] to sort of see some way around it, but I mean it's a, it's a problem of the scheduling both by the theatres
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] because you know the other thing to take into this is the
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] sort of thing we've talked about as well with, with the Edinburgh and Glasgow Kings
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] the Kings theatres in towns where by and large they're showing the same shows
[Brian:] Mm
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] and sometimes they go to Glasgow first
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] and then they go to Edinburgh
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] and sometimes they go from Edinburgh to Glasgow
[Cathy:] And they usually go to Aberdeen
[Robert:] sometimes they go to Aberdeen
[Iris:] That's right, yes
[Robert:] sometimes they come to Edinburgh and then go away for six months and come back to Glasgow
[Jane:] Yeah
[Iris:] Yes, yes that's right
[Robert:] and I'm quite keen to sort of have that
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] I mean you're never going to control, you're never going to be on top of it but I mean
[Iris:] No
[Jane:] Oh no it's not, never, doubt it
[Robert:] like Alligator Gun for example I know is coming to the, to the Kings up the road here quite soon and then it's going to Glasgow later on, and I keep thinking every time this sort of thing, thing's happening I keep thinking we could be dealing with these
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] we could actually be doing
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] you know, erm this, sometimes they go to the Theatre Royal to complicate things, but you know,
[Iris:] Mm
[Robert:] Playhouse and things but it's different theatres, but
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] you know I just keep thinking the stuff's on the way round and there ought to be some way of doing it, but I, you know, I mean maybe Brian's idea of the, the, the organizations in the ci ci but that doesn't help me you know with a, with a
[Brian:] You still need a key person who's going to
[Jane:] Yes you do
[Iris:] You still need, yes
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] to sit on the information
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] I think so, there's got to be one person I mean I thought about this long and hard and there's just no way, it cannot be done by committee it would not work cos then
[Jane:] No it won't
[Cathy:] you've got people phoning oh, but I told er Linda
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] oh, but I told Iris, oh but I told Jane
[Jane:] That's right
[Cathy:] and you've got all this people not, you know
[Jane:] And the information just never comes
[Cathy:] Never gets together
[Jane:] Everybody
[Iris:] That's right
[Cathy:] so it's got to be one person and it's got
[Iris:] you're all little bits, innit?
[Cathy:] to be soon because that's already
[Iris:] Mm, be soon
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] happened but that's gonna happen again
[Robert:] Yeah, I think it'll happen again in the spring
[Cathy:] it's only a matter of time
[Robert:] At least we've got dates here for the Lyceum for
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] till April
[Iris:] Yes and I've got Brampton till November
[Robert:] so we can sort of put those into our
[Iris:] September
[Jane:] I think what I personally think what you need is a coordinator in Glasgow, a coordinator in Edinburgh to get together with a general coordinator who's going to cover Perth, Stirling
[Iris:] Yeah
[Jane:] Aberdeen, erm and get together and decide what they want, discussing dates
[Robert:] Yeah
[Jane:] because the coordinator are the ones who know if they
[Robert:] what's
[Jane:] have to describe and
[Robert:] Yes and the people on the ground, well Linda is obviously the, the other recorder
[speaker007:] Yeah
[Robert:] and you're obviously
[Iris:] I'm hoping that Wendy 's going to be
[Jane:] Oh
[Iris:] at Glasgow, yes
[Robert:] If she's going to take over, well obviously if those two come together
[Iris:] if she doesn't get a job [LAUGHTER], I hope she doesn't get a job, that's not very nice thing to say, she's so good, so
[Cathy:] You know Wendy she's so good at it these
[Iris:] she'll coordinate the Glasgow ones and erm
[Jane:] Right
[Iris:] that'll save me phoning up to say can I have a script please
[Robert:] And that for you to take them all
[Iris:] That's right
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] Well the other thing that's in the back of my mind is I happen to know that Cath is just taking on a new worker
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] would she be able to... is this a full time worker you've got?
[Cathy:] Yes she is a full time worker
[Robert:] Working beside you
[Cathy:] She's full time worker and er she's a clerical typists, typist so
[Robert:] And so she's more or less chained to a desk then is she?
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] Nine to five?
[Cathy:] Or whatever
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER] because that's the other problem with people like me is, I'm all over the place all the time.
[Cathy:] Yes she can certainly
[Robert:] I've only got a part time back up you see
[Cathy:] she could certainly erm offer any, you know, assistance in whatever way... the only thing is that erm
[Iris:] She doesn't really know the theatres so that's the thing
[Cathy:] No, no, now she doesn't know any theatres and she doesn't no that's
[Iris:] Yeah, you see that's, we really need someone who's involved to be honest
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] no, be honest about that, certainly doesn't, she's there, she's certainly there and can offer any assistance you know erm
[Robert:] I'm just thinking maybe of a central diary or something, that someone would keep, someone who you know you could relay them with phones say what's happening on the twenty third of January
[Cathy:] I mean I er, if Wendy is dealing is goi well perhaps going to be dealing with a
[Iris:] Yes, aha
[Cathy:] do you feel that leaves you freer to
[Jane:] Well I'm freer to do, I mean I, I got, I wanted to be free because I was getting tied up with that and I was getting tied up with persons, but not agreeing everything
[Robert:] Mm
[Jane:] and I felt I was being spread in so many directions erm, that erm I wanted to get rid of the Glasgow coordination
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] so
[Robert:] You could tell the day
[Jane:] Yeah, mhm
[Robert:] Shall we try that then?
[Cathy:] You see Iris has got an answer for you
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] Yes that's another thing
[Cathy:] and you can't say this, because I've got to say this for you
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER] That's right
[Cathy:] because you're blind Iris I've got to say because
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] You know, I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, it has to be someone that you can leave messages with
[Iris:] Mhm
[Cathy:] so that's the thing
[Jane:] You've got to get hold of them too
[Cathy:] You've got to be able to
[Iris:] Yes, aha...
[Cathy:] erm, I certainly am worried about it, cos I can see, and see when it starts getting out of hand like this, see
[Iris:] Yes, yes
[Cathy:] when it starts going wrong you'll get you'll get going ah, wait a minute
[Iris:] Yes exactly
[Robert:] Exactly
[Cathy:] and blind people go wait a minute you know, I want to go to this and I want to go to that
[Robert:] Cos the other thing that's worrying me coming up is Christmas
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] Oh that'll be a nightmare
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] because there's that thing you were saying about, the visits
[Iris:] Visits, yes
[Robert:] and, and our friend in Glasgow West Society not
[Iris:] Oh yes
[Robert:] organizing tickets and
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] Remember last year remember all that
[Robert:] the only, the only date is the sixth
[Cathy:] we landed up with no idea of the description, on one of the pantomime performances because he wouldn't arrange the date and then
[Jane:] Well I mean the thing is, as soon as the Citizens open the box office for pantomime, I phoned them and said
[Cathy:] Good
[Jane:] open and book
[Cathy:] good
[Jane:] now
[Cathy:] yes
[Jane:] and what did he do, he didn't book now
[Cathy:] Oh no
[Jane:] and the first time by
[Cathy:] I don't wish
[Jane:] the time he phoned he could only get Friday of the first week
[Cathy:] Oh that's hopeless for children
[Jane:] now I can't say no
[Cathy:] Of course not
[Jane:] because we have, because it's for the children, so I said we'll do it, but that gives us an awful crush to get it in Friday the first week
[Cathy:] Exactly, and also it's
[Jane:] and he said I have to admit I didn't act on your phone call and I felt like braining him I really did
[Iris:] Surprise, surprise
[Cathy:] Why couldn't you of just said yes well you, well you just two years running you
[Jane:] Two years running, yes, last year we did two separate audio
[Cathy:] Last year we did two, two separate audio descriptions
[Jane:] He shouldn't mess it up
[Robert:] Well I think this is another case actually where I think in, in that
[Cathy:] Yes it is
[Robert:] situation that, you know, hopefully by next Christmas we'll we'll maybe be a bit
[Jane:] Maybe, maybe we'll get a coordinator who will just say I'll book the seats for you
[Brian:] It's not far away
[Robert:] Yes quite, exactly and
[Cathy:] You owe us
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] We'll, we'll move it into a position where, you know, maybe we can bring the Sid, Sid on this well as well and say
[Iris:] Just send the bill to Glasgow then
[Robert:] that's right
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] maybe, maybe it's something that which may emerge as well with you
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] if you talk successfully to the R B A
[Cathy:] Yes oh yes watch, watch yourself over Christmas it's very complex, yes because I mean the whole point innit is to have the audio description and also it should be, it should into the runs, so that
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] so that it is
[Robert:] People will have time
[Cathy:] nearer, nearer to Christmas because Christmas Eve would actually be the perfect time to do for children
[Jane:] Yes, exactly
[Cathy:] I mean children just get more and more excited
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] and, and er, Alan, Alan actually said to me last year why I don't see the importance of audio description anyway
[Jane:] Eh
[Cathy:] oh well I mean that was red rag to the bull
[Robert:] I don't think he ever, ever has, has he?
[Jane:] Well I've got people on my committee who are on R B A board
[Cathy:] Oh
[Jane:] and they, that's why we got the equipment of course and they all support it and Jim supports it
[Cathy:] Jim's
[Jane:] so there shouldn't be any problem
[Cathy:] No
[Jane:] through that
[Cathy:] The chairman
[Robert:] Mhm
[Jane:] There shouldn't be any problem, but I mean he won't... won't
[Robert:] Right
[Jane:] instruct the school to do anything about it
[Cathy:] No
[Jane:] but we might be able to convince him.
[Robert:] So what we've agreed then is that,f f you're hoping that Wendy
[Jane:] Wendy
[Robert:] is that E or I?
[Jane:] she actually [spelling] []
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] she actually volunteered, ha
[Iris:] Oh she's sweet
[Robert:] Would take over the coordinator and Linda
[Iris:] Linda
[Robert:] through here
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] and obviously
[Cathy:] And my offer of help still stands for Wendy
[Robert:] Right,
[Cathy:] because the typing
[Robert:] that Iris will still keep the diary as it was
[Iris:] Yes, lovely
[Robert:] Iris would actually and maybe what we should do is buy a diary
[Iris:] Yep
[Robert:] and I could have it a year diary in fact
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] because that's the sort of seasons you guys tell me what
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm... and you know and that would be their kind of bible [LAUGHTER] get one with a lock on [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] Yeah [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] and er, you know we, we would just have to
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] set up that mechanism that you know
[Iris:] Aha, yes
[Robert:] everybody and, you know
[Jane:] Everybody checks them
[Robert:] everybody checks with those three people
[Cathy:] Yes I think so
[Robert:] I mean in a way the purse thing is a bit more... distant
[Jane:] A slight more distant, yes
[Robert:] but non the less if you're
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] I mean you're still gonna have a
[Jane:] But Stirling isn't for instance, they'll want to consider their pantomime again
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] Yeah, yeah, so you know we need to sort of pull that together
[Jane:] It's very important for the equipment as well if we're using the
[Robert:] Yes, it's the as well
[Iris:] Exactly, yes, yes exactly
[Robert:] all by and large I mean it's almost certainly
[Iris:] it's getting it from one place to the next
[Jane:] Oh for instance, for instance
[Cathy:] Same equipment for the same blind people
[Jane:] Well come the twenty
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] come the twenty fourth of September
[Iris:] Give it to the blind and they can take the equipment
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] equipment in Oc in Stirling then from Glasgow back
[Cathy:] See
[Jane:] induction
[Cathy:] see
[Jane:] which is a nuisance
[Cathy:] now, well it's a nuisance but thank goodness at least it's there
[Jane:] It's there
[Cathy:] Yes but not they won't like you going back
[Jane:] but it's, you know, it is a you won't like going back, no I don't like it either
[Robert:] Mm
[Jane:] if we had our, our second system in each city then
[Cathy:] There we go that's right
[Jane:] Yes, mhm
[Cathy:] you can imagine, I mean
[Robert:] [sneeze]
[Cathy:] come in and use it as a centre and the phone and never thinking there that
[Jane:] yes that's bad
[Cathy:] That'll help and also for any the other coordinator unless they've got a problem because er
[Robert:] Well can I say then that Iris will keep a diary
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] which is also the equipment diary, that, with back up from your
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Yes, yes, it's a lot of work
[Robert:] So, right I'm just wary of the time
[Cathy:] Mm
[Robert:] it's twenty past three
[Cathy:] Mm
[Jane:] Right
[Robert:] erm, moving on, erm... audio description in Scotland, no... er since this, the last meeting, yes Cath and I have been talking about all that money, we had an entertaining day out
[Cathy:] Entertaining day out
[Robert:] and to cut a long story short, we went to see three possible funders, er funder one was T S B Foundation, where to cut a long story short I'm pretty sure that T S B er we, we have to put an application in for October I think we'll, we'll buy us another system...
[Cathy:] Only because the guy had lost his sight in Korea
[Robert:] Mm
[Jane:] Oh good
[Iris:] good [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] So you should always send me
[Robert:] Yes definitely definitely
[Jane:] Of course
[Cathy:] too late
[Jane:] Oh yes I think you're right
[Cathy:] if I hadn't of been blinded he was out the door
[Robert:] So, er meeting number two was with Geoff from Carniki Trust and he er welcome, welcomed
[Cathy:] Robert's, Robert's got a
[Robert:] us very warmly and erm
[Cathy:] Oh yes
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] and he's encouraged us to put an application in to do more, more so with the training side of things
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] you and I will need to sort ourselves on that, that's new
[Cathy:] Er we just need to get the money and
[Robert:] Yeah erm, yeah I know it's, it's writing the application a little bit
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] so that, that will be quite good, erm and lastly we went to meet with Sandra from Youth Out, fund employed theatrical fund, which was a meeting we weren't really allowed to have, and this is certainly not for the record
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm because I'd phoned up and asked for them, er my secretary had phoned up and asked for a meeting with her but the response was we're not allowed to meet with you, so we said okay, cos it's public money and things
[Cathy:] It'll give us the edge, public money
[Robert:] and then we arrived, [LAUGHTER] we arrived at
[Cathy:] This is good
[Robert:] where the Carniki Trust is in Dunfermline having just managed to get there on the petrol in the tank erm
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] we happened to go up the stair and er, the door was answered
[Cathy:] The door was shut
[Robert:] by this woman, who said, you know, who are you? What you want? So we said were Robert and she sort of gave me an odd look
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] went away and came back and said oh Mr will see you in a minute and it turned out it was Sandra
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] because Youth and Carniki I knew are in the same building, which is why we wanted to see you
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] and she said while, since you are here, I can meet with you
[Cathy:] We won't talk to you
[Robert:] I bump into a lot of people at conferences, so I haven't been able to write formally to thank you for the meeting because I don't want anything on the record then
[Cathy:] She made us tea as well
[Jane:] Oh good, I read in today's newspaper
[Cathy:] Oh
[Jane:] erm on the train coming through that Esso have withdrawn the sponsorship from sports in Scotland
[Robert:] Oh really?
[Iris:] Oh
[Cathy:] Oh really?
[Jane:] and they're going to concentrate on community
[Cathy:] Ooh
[Robert:] Ooh
[Iris:] ooh
[Jane:] I thought we're a community
[Robert:] Everybody likes that one [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] Esso immediately
[Cathy:] Nice one
[Iris:] Esso, mm
[Jane:] get in touch with Esso, oh yes
[Brian:] Small flurry of ayes
[Cathy:] That the one with the tiger or is it Shell?
[Jane:] That's it
[Robert:] Tiger
[Iris:] Esso's the tiger
[Robert:] Esso's the tiger
[Cathy:] Esso's the tiger
[Jane:] Esso's the tiger, yeah
[Robert:] Put a tiger in your audio description
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] so and UFAF, UFAF is, is a, in fact UFAF I felt quite pleased about in a way because we'd, we'd analyzed Maggie and I had analyzed the documents and Jane and I and Graham and I had spoken about it as well, that they are principally interested in unemployed volunteers
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] but not impulsively, but the, what I did have a concern about and I think we'll have to be a bit careful about this as we go forward is that, the audio description project is about audio description, youth and funding is about volunteers
[Cathy:] Yes, she's quite clear in
[Robert:] whilst the two er obviously
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] fit together
[Cathy:] It's the way you
[Robert:] it's not quite the same
[Jane:] No
[Robert:] so it's not exactly like you're trying to put you know you're trying to put a right hand onto a left hand, but it, it's a certain element of that, erm having said that what do you think? I mean do you think she's going to respond well?
[Cathy:] Oh definitely, aha Donna made out about that
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] she said, she's very into Alan and she knows his work
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] cos he's I phoned Alan, erm their rehab unit
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] is back to back, with Carniki in Dunfermline
[Jane:] Yes, that's right
[Cathy:] so you see she sees him coming and going, she sees the blind people coming and going, so hence the kind of yeah, so is that's it
[Iris:] Oh I knew that
[Cathy:] so
[Robert:] I didn't know that
[Cathy:] so that was
[Iris:] alright, there you are, you see so that's information on giving out.
[Cathy:] Share this information, so no, I think she'll help and I think he'll help erm because of you, because obviously very committed to that
[Robert:] Yeah
[Iris:] Aha
[Cathy:] That should be quite good, but it's not enough of course
[Robert:] No, I mean that, you know, that, that all kind of gets off the ground
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] er, what, the next thing that I've agreed with, with Mary
[Cathy:] Mm
[Robert:] is that once obviously there is a specialist application to UFAF, to, to their forms
[Cathy:] Mm
[Robert:] there'd be a not quite a specialist application to Carniki, Carniki will be linked to UFAF
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] due to the timing we have to apply to Carn, well the deadline for Carn Carn the deadline for UFAF comes first
[Jane:] Yeah
[Robert:] but will be considered second
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Mhm
[Jane:] Not till December it's not considered
[Robert:] That's right, the Carniki is the deadline is end of September and they'll considered it in October
[Cathy:] Aha I see
[Robert:] but it will become Carniki decision will be conditional on UFAF application, I think
[Cathy:] Ah, which is a bit iffy
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] but should be okay
[Robert:] but since Geoffrey is actually one of the UFAF trustees as well it will all quickly fit in together
[Jane:] It's all intermingled, yes
[Iris:] Oh yes
[Robert:] But once we've agreed is, once, once I've done the work, we have done the work, I have done the work with you helping me, er I've written this application, what I want to do is turn that into a much more general one and then I can write to you know maybe twenty, twenty five trusts on a more general basis
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] saying you know, we need a sum of money and Mary will help me with the marketing of that and hopefully after that we would, go on enough to keep us going, so hopefully by the time Christmas comes
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] I mean we'll, we'll obviously have to sort of keep a, keep an eye on all this all the way through
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] Can I say, I, I can express concern about that because I think that in terms of funding I've written A short term and B long term erm I think we've got a short term problem and
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] I speak on behalf of Playback not as Playback itself, but as Playback being part of the Regional Council that can a bit, now I was at a meeting this morning where I, I sort of absolutely had to read the riot act about Playback because they do not have a set budget whether you know this or not, they don't have a standard budget as they should have, we've fought for this for years, what we do is, we survive through crisis to crisis, now some money has been extracted from the Playback budget and whilst I have to share two bits of Playback, you know, the, the actual Playback charitable, voluntary bit, and the Regional Council, I mean they, I, I can say that they do not have a backing of money that they can fall back on, too many backs there, but I mean really I would say that I would be concerned if it was Christmas before we were ready, I, I can't help but think if we could and I mean, very, very happy to work with, with anybody and everybody on this to try and get these things pulled up quite quickly, I mean if it's forms to be filled in then
[Robert:] Mhm
[Cathy:] you know application and that, surely we could maybe tackle that quickly and then
[Robert:] Sure, well
[Cathy:] we would be in a position to have this letter because I'm getting anxious, I've written a logo first and then this long term, short term and they're connected
[Robert:] Yeah, right
[Cathy:] I think we need to move a bit faster
[Robert:] Well when I say Christmas I mean that's actually decision, I mean we can't hurry the meeting that you've had and we can't hurry the meetings one we get
[Cathy:] Yes decisions, no, no, no for the actual post of all that stuff I appreciate that, but the actual raising of money and something
[Robert:] Yeah, well, no I'm thinking that these, these applications have to be in both of them by the end of September and I don't
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] see why the, the second string of the trust letters shouldn't be going out straight away after
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] Straight away, yes
[Robert:] But again you're always linked, you're always linked to
[Cathy:] Aha, yes cos again I'd go for assistance on that, you know
[Robert:] deadlines, a lot of these trusts only meet once a quarter
[Cathy:] I know
[Robert:] and you might get lucky
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Yeah
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] and get in
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] but you might you know miss it by a week and got three months, two months, three weeks at the most
[Cathy:] I just er, it would just be, I, I just, just would be concerned
[Robert:] but your
[Cathy:] you know
[Robert:] Yeah, yeah
[Cathy:] that, that Playback's left, you know, for, for a very long time because I think you'll agree and I know it was a decision taken by Playback and that you
[Robert:] Hang on Cath, Cath
[Jane:] Playback had been now been paid back
[Robert:] Playback have been paid back
[Cathy:] Have they completely?
[Jane:] Yes we have, yes, the same as the Edinburgh Society, yeah
[Cathy:] Oh well, then, I, that really takes away my short term concern then
[Jane:] Aha
[Cathy:] That's fine because that wasn't running
[Jane:] the Edinburgh Society had given us some money, that's not me
[Cathy:] My clock's going bananas you know
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] Mine doesn't make that noise now
[Cathy:] No, that's my clock going bananas
[Jane:] Nothing over here
[Iris:] Mhm
[Cathy:] Yeah well that's fine then, sorry I take away my I should of maybe actually asked the question
[Robert:] Has Jane had enough
[Cathy:] first because erm
[Robert:] Leave it there, right
[Cathy:] That's why you meant
[Jane:] You mentioned logo there and erm I think that's where
[Cathy:] Now again, can we go back to that because
[Jane:] but I think this, this comes down to the RNIB, I mean if we want a logo it should be an audio description logo for the country
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] For the, for everybody
[Jane:] don't you think so?
[Iris:] Yeah it should be national
[Jane:] A national one
[Cathy:] Except
[Robert:] Well
[Cathy:] except then if you're writing off for money to places like Telecom and it's a national logo
[Robert:] Can you not have a national logo which is kind of personal wise
[Jane:] Oh I mean, I know that in America and all the different cities have their own logos
[Robert:] Okay
[Jane:] so maybe we could do that here
[Robert:] on the logo front when Linda wrote to me and said she couldn't come to this meeting
[Jane:] Yeah
[Robert:] she said I have enclosed a, a draft of a logo and she didn't, I have seen it because Jane's got one
[Cathy:] Who is this?
[Robert:] Linda
[Iris:] Linda
[Robert:] Linda had a contact who'd done something
[Cathy:] Linda had done one because remember but Alex did one way back which would not
[Robert:] of course and at college
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] say was wonderful, but I think we should maybe try and just gather them together and
[Jane:] but the sooner, the sooner we get a logo the sooner
[Cathy:] soon
[Jane:] I can get placards made to put above our heads
[Cathy:] So lovely, get it out there
[Robert:] but if we have Linda's just, just that
[Brian:] Mm, with information on
[Jane:] Yes exactly
[Robert:] Can you find it?
[Iris:] Mm, I've got it somewhere
[Cathy:] Could you, could you maybe gather Linda's and Alex's and anybody else's that they've got
[Robert:] Well those are the only two, I mean Linda's, Linda's one is the more
[Iris:] I'll give you one
[Cathy:] Oh, but, ah, well Iris's
[Robert:] That's three then
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] Three
[Iris:] I've got all the bits and pieces of all
[Robert:] Okay, well put it on the agenda next time
[Cathy:] Right, yes, please I think that's a wee
[Iris:] I can't find Linda's
[Jane:] Aha
[Cathy:] and if people could get a copy of them all before the next meeting
[Robert:] Do you have friendly relationships with a graphic designer, at this?
[Jane:] Yes, yes
[Cathy:] we could hopefully try and make a decision
[Jane:] Yes, yes
[Cathy:] I mean I couldn't care less, as long as it was something
[Jane:] must get something
[Iris:] Linda's is the mask in the theatre
[Cathy:] Oh yes
[Robert:] Not really, but
[Iris:] with headsets and erm lights
[Cathy:] That's it, that's it
[Iris:] and headlights coming, you know, the
[Robert:] Brian has something to come up with
[Jane:] Oh do, do
[Robert:] which is
[Jane:] yes
[Cathy:] Ooh
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] yes please
[Jane:] Yes please
[Cathy:] because I just think it would, it's so important to get that bit, that bit goes along with the all the application bit, if we tie those two up together
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] I don't think we'll have a problem with money you see
[Robert:] Mm
[Cathy:] but it's got to be done properly and
[Jane:] One of, one of the things is the, is the, I don't know what the eye is the good thing to have in the, if somehow or other
[Robert:] Be incorporated it
[Cathy:] To be quite honest I quite like the iron
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] and I know that's a bit blind and, and I'm usually
[Jane:] Well
[Cathy:] saying the opposite, but you do have to remind people what you're doing
[Jane:] it's, it identifies you really quickly
[Robert:] Mm
[Jane:] yeah, mhm
[Cathy:] It does
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Perhaps, right
[Jane:] well great if you can get something good, good
[Cathy:] If you're not so very artistic, all but seems
[Robert:] Just need to come up with a brief
[Iris:] It was more or less something along those lines wasn't it
[Brian:] Yeah I could, I could
[Jane:] Something as simple as Linda's
[Cathy:] Linda's?
[Brian:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] It did have, yes I, I mean it, it wasn't that, but it was something you know that
[Cathy:] It was the masks
[Robert:] theatre masks
[Cathy:] Should, what they were trying to do was copy the masks that you have in the
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Mm
[Cathy:] Lyceum...
[Robert:] And
[Iris:] oh so it's a Lyceum over there really.
[Brian:] No, no, [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] Personalize, personalize
[Robert:] Lyceum has just got a new logo I noticed
[Iris:] Oh don't [LAUGHTER] no
[Robert:] said can we have your old one?
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] Yes, steal it, that'll be fine, I'll steal it
[Iris:] No I don't know what I've done with it
[Robert:] So anyway
[Cathy:] That's all my fault
[Robert:] so that's, that's the erm, the funding side of things Graham and I
[Iris:] We gave the money back
[Robert:] Yes Graham and I erm, spent time talking about job descriptions which
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] if I haven't brought that forward, it's really irritating because I'm sure I've put don't seem to of done, so we have done some work on job description, here, I mean it's not been typed up anyway
[Cathy:] Maybe send them out rather than wait till the next meeting, aha
[Robert:] I'll send them out erm
[Cathy:] That'll be good
[Robert:] it's only draft
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] so that's done some work on that, and there's now four models for training, one is the, you know, on the job, evenings, training, there's the weekend model of getting people together for the weekend, there's the sort of summer school idea and the other one's the one that Doug keeps reminding me about, which I keep forgetting about which is the distance learning one, er we, I think this is the one he thinks is running in Dundee, that maybe help with because the idea of developing a pack which is kind of trainer proof
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] so that it could be sent to the folks in Inverness
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] I'm a bit weary about this but he seems to
[Jane:] Yes I'm a bit weary about it
[Robert:] think
[Cathy:] Audio description at a distance
[Jane:] Ah yes
[Cathy:] no I don't fancy that at
[Brian:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] So anyway those are the four, those are the four models, I mean at, at this stage I don't know
[Brian:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] I mean the fourth one the fourth
[Jane:] One of the, one of the
[Robert:] I think the first two though, the on the job obviously
[Cathy:] Oh how
[Robert:] the weekend is relatively straightforward, the summer school idea is complex and I think the distance is complex
[Cathy:] It's expensive
[Robert:] Yeah, exactly
[Jane:] In some ways wh I, I, I heard, I was listening to a description on Saturday at the serials and I must admit I thought to myself mm
[Cathy:] Yeah
[Jane:] we've got more work required here
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] Yes, so, it needs someone, I mean I'm always hers now, sort of saying why, those, those, but you see if there's nobody to doing that in Edinburgh they're going to slip again... unfortunately.
[Cathy:] Yes that applies to hand and that applies right throughout the country
[Jane:] Absolutely yes
[Robert:] Yeah, so we need to yeah, we're, we're sort of thinking about it
[Jane:] Aha
[Robert:] but er, how you kind of do that
[Jane:] The other thing I was slightly concerned about it, if it's a slight digression is the fact that the people at the Lyceum at the Assembly Hall last Saturday didn't know, hadn't been told anything about the equipment
[Robert:] Yeah
[Jane:] they didn't even know how to put the clip onto the microphone, they were sitting holding the microphones instead of slinging it round their neck, and they've never been told about the equipment, so they needn't
[Cathy:] I see
[Jane:] I mean all of them are obviously going to need equipment explained to them
[Cathy:] They need to understand how the equipment works, aha
[Robert:] So that's part of the training
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] That part, aha
[Robert:] Yeah... yeah... right
[Iris:] It's a trouble is it's an ongoing, it's a not a bit of training it's an ongoing
[Jane:] No, the only thing is the thing is the equipment is new to everyone in Edinburgh
[Iris:] Of course
[Jane:] and... once they've shown, if somebody new comes along one of the old hand
[Robert:] It'll just pass it on
[Cathy:] Of course it'll pass on
[Jane:] Will be passed on, but in this instance they all need to be shown how to work it, yes, mhm, so that concerned me a little bit, apparently because they were holding the mike right up to their mouth and it was distorting terribly [LAUGHTER] what's going on up there
[Robert:] So it's, it's the sort of
[Jane:] Mm
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] improper use
[Jane:] Yes exactly, yes
[Robert:] right... so I mean there's, there's obviously more need to be thought through on that and the video I haven't, oh I have done something more about the video
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm, I haven't, I was gonna go and, I tried phoning Lorne one time I was going through to Glasgow just to see if I could, can I have a, can I have a pint with him or something, erm, just to chew it over cos he suggested you know he'd made various helpful suggestions, in the meantime I didn't manage to meet him, but in the meantime I did manage to speak to my father-in-law who has a camcorder and er he will be more than happy to erm, he's also got editing equipment, he would be more than happy you know, to do the home made video that we've talked about, I need to talk to him about this because the obvious place to do will be the Lyceum on one of your shows
[Jane:] Can you get, can you give me the name erm, the rest of the through to Glasgow she was Rose that she lecturers and dramas or something
[Iris:] Margaret
[Jane:] Margaret, can you give me a phone number for her because I thought if they do that they must put her on plays with us students
[Robert:] Yeah, well that is another possibility we could
[Jane:] that would be ideal
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] Certainly I'll
[Jane:] aha
[Robert:] Erm
[Jane:] but she would be ideal
[Robert:] Let me just put you in the picture there Brian, what, what Lorne has agreed subject to what guarantees have been given
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] is that, that we as a group can, can er video the production, but it was at Perth, but in this case it would have to be
[Brian:] Mhm
[Robert:] review, erm, subject to getting on commission from the cast and director
[Brian:] Mhm
[Robert:] and all we will be talking about when my father-in-law will be coming along, he's got a tripod, he's got all the gear, it will be just that probably be plonking it on front of the ground circle actually
[Brian:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm
[Brian:] a bit like slinging a good, we could put it over the front
[Robert:] Oh that'll be even better then you'll need to talk to him
[Brian:] I mean you'd asked him to do that
[Robert:] I mean he's, he has been quite busy he's retired, but he's, he's been quite busy with this Festival, but I, I said to him, now what I'll do is maybe come and you and him and Jane maybe kind of will just sort of have a quick confab sometime just talk about what he wants, and he will be kind of happy to do that with obviously we'd have to find a drop of money to pay for the tapes, I mean that wouldn't be huge and expensive. He's also got editing equipment so it might be the sort of thing that you know like you'll be able to take it away and say you know, this section, that bit and then
[Jane:] And that, that's right
[Robert:] meet again with him, maybe go to his house
[Jane:] Yep
[Robert:] and spend an afternoon cutting it off as it were
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] I mean if, copying those bits onto a separate tape.
[Jane:] Yeah.
[Robert:] What Lorne, has, the concern Lorne has is, is that he doesn't want that tape, finding its way out of our
[Jane:] Mm, yes
[Robert:] hands, erm, I mean he's, he's really genuinely concerned, wanting to help us, but I mean he's obviously he's, you know, he is the union
[Cathy:] Oh yes, absolutely he's quite right about that
[Robert:] and he has to represent his neighbours, erm... so erm... so we would need to guar give guarantees, I think that would have to be have to give guarantees that the tape would not be abused, but I mean that in, in, in actuality you know, if it was you doing the training
[Jane:] That's right
[Robert:] it comes down for you and you would have to sign documents of, erm, anyway so it's...
[Iris:] that's great
[Brian:] Should be fairly easy to
[Iris:] Yeah
[Brian:] just to record straight over
[Robert:] Right
[Brian:] not necessarily on a camcorder
[Robert:] Right, well we can, we should, we should do that, then. When do you start again?
[Brian:] I speak to Stella now
[Robert:] Do you speak, do you start straight after the Festival we have a gala evening?
[Brian:] Er eleventh
[Robert:] Right, well what I'll do is, if you like, that's it... this is the erm, erm... Linda
[Jane:] Mhm Mhm
[Robert:] friend, who... I spoke to Cath
[Iris:] I'll date it...
[Cathy:] No I can't and can I tell you, I'm not being funny but I think that's actually maybe quite important, I know this is not the in doubt visually impaired people but
[Jane:] Oh no
[Cathy:] I think you'd have to
[Jane:] oh yes
[Cathy:] choose something that, a person with a visual impairment might be
[Jane:] Yes, aha
[Cathy:] able to catch not every one is totally but I mean, you know it'll be quite nice, it also be quite nice if it was raised
[Jane:] Yeah
[Iris:] Yes right
[Cathy:] then it would have a wee with it, which would be quite nice for a visually impaired person
[Jane:] Mm yes
[Robert:] Mm
[Cathy:] Just a thought, you know
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] and I'm afraid I'm, I'm not a very artistic person as well
[Jane:] When that went into the paper, that's a similar sort of thing that they use
[Brian:] fair, fair enough
[Iris:] That's what they used
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] similar
[Robert:] Yes there's a technique for, for raising it, isn't it?
[Cathy:] I think there must be because I've seen it several times now and just in, in, you know
[Jane:] Mm
[Cathy:] people not necessarily anything to do with visual impairments paper you know
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] Yes, indeed
[Cathy:] it was quite fun
[Jane:] Mhm...
[Cathy:] I suppose it's always much more expensive to do
[Iris:] Yes you just write over the top, sort of write over the top of it and it raises off
[Robert:] That's right, mm
[Cathy:] But I, I mean, erm I suppose it's best to do it in colour
[Iris:] We've got some of the stuff downstairs
[Cathy:] colour along
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] I suppose it'll cost yeah
[Iris:] Cost more in printing cost more doesn't it?
[Jane:] Yeah
[Iris:] Yeah an awful lot more
[Jane:] Yeah, yeah so if
[Robert:] I mean it is a quite complex problem because once you've
[Brian:] Once you have a single colour it's okay
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Yeah a single colour, ah, right, yes, well that maybe quite nice
[Robert:] Because you want something which is big and small
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] so that you know you can use it, you know, on your own, publicity material
[Cathy:] Yes something that'll look good blown up aha
[Jane:] Yes, yes
[Cathy:] to do a poster or something yes, that's
[Iris:] That doesn't immediately occur to me that it's for blind people
[Jane:] No
[Robert:] No
[Jane:] That's what I thought
[Iris:] it's like for like, for, for like hearing, a hearing aid person
[Jane:] Mm
[Iris:] that's my initial thought it's not obvious
[Cathy:] Oh we definitely don't want that cos all the money will go
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] the money will go to sign language in Devon
[Robert:] Can I, can I have a
[Iris:] What you see are the headphones so you think about hearing
[Cathy:] Hearing
[Iris:] you don't think about sight
[Jane:] That's right, yes
[Iris:] and I think that's, that's quite, quite right...
[Robert:] Yes I mean just, I mean this is, you know
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] this is the quick we did for this, and that's
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] why we just put the eyes on the front
[Iris:] Mhm
[Cathy:] what we don't want is a man with a white stick job
[Jane:] No, no
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] I mean that's
[Jane:] no, no and we don't, we don't want a green dog either no
[Cathy:] And a dog oh no watch Graham
[Robert:] I think that
[Jane:] yes
[Brian:] A bit His Master's Voice isn't it?
[Cathy:] Yes [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] Oh no, a guide dog listening
[Cathy:] His Master's Voice in Hamlet, you know, it's just, stick a who I am on that wee dog, I can remember I can see, I can remember that from
[Jane:] But the, the dog listening to a big ear instead of a, an earphone
[Iris:] If guide dogs can sue us
[Cathy:] Aye guide dogs, I know.
[Robert:] Now er moving on erm I did phone Marcus up and asked why were the coming to London and it is something to do with television
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] he gave me a number to phone and I've tried phoning and I've not had a response, but I'll keep trying
[Jane:] This is a that's very difficult to get hold of
[Robert:] Yeah I haven't managed to get all of them
[Jane:] Yes, mhm
[Iris:] Sixteenth of September, no
[Jane:] The nineteenth
[Iris:] Nineteenth
[Jane:] round about then, mhm
[Robert:] Right, cos it only dawned on me cos the first of September erm the Wakefield meeting that was talked about
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] on the nineteenth of August was postponed and it's now in a couple of weeks, so I'm gonna go
[Jane:] Is it now?
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] in a couple of weeks, whenever it is
[Iris:] Right
[Jane:] Same one I was going to go down to
[Cathy:] Was that, what was it on?
[Jane:] Glad I didn't go down to it [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] It was about training
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] Oh it's about training
[Robert:] I thought that was something else you were going to go to
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Glad you didn't go eh?
[Jane:] Yes I did, yes
[Cathy:] Well just as well I'd, that sounds good
[Robert:] Yeah, Marcus was being quite sort of vague, but Marcus is gonna be here at the end of the month
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Yes, by the way I'm gonna be able to see Max, I'll tell you that now because I've been dragged off to another conference, I'm actually going down to the, to the rehabilitation workers' phones
[Iris:] You haven't been dragged off at all
[Cathy:] I'm furious
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] and Alan's started phoning me up and saying
[Iris:] And then you're flying up to Stone Haven
[Cathy:] sorting out and then I've got to go down to that conference and fly up to Stone Haven
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] that's two however it doesn't matter
[Iris:] And when are you going to get to Stone Haven?
[Cathy:] I don't know...
[Jane:] I don't think there's an airport in Stone Haven
[Iris:] No
[Cathy:] Oh
[Iris:] You're flying into
[Cathy:] what?
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] She's actually flying to Di's
[Brian:] Just drop you off in
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] I'm not coming
[Cathy:] You can see it all folks
[Iris:] That's for the thirtieth you're flying into Dave's?
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] Well I'll be in Aberdeen
[Jane:] Anyway
[Cathy:] Oh
[Iris:] and that's Aberdeen airport... I could maybe pick you up
[Cathy:] Yes, let's try and
[Jane:] I'm not quite sure I've put my name down
[Iris:] cos I live in Aberdeen, my home's Aberdeen, so I'll be in Aberdeen
[Jane:] for that with the thing with the fancy
[Cathy:] Excellent I'll get together with that
[Iris:] quite right, I can easily be at Dave's Saturday, no problem, I know Dave
[Robert:] That's a Saturday is it?
[Jane:] That's a Saturday
[Iris:] Yes
[Brian:] What's the
[Jane:] I don't know
[Iris:] I know
[Jane:] I quite like to go, but erm
[Iris:] Well I'll be in
[Cathy:] I was telling you
[Jane:] I'd loved to have gone you know
[Iris:] Commodore cos that's where Tom's going commercial in Russell Square, next door
[Cathy:] Aye next door
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] Oh that
[Iris:] Yeah
[Jane:] all the theatres and the country
[Brian:] There is the, there's the
[Jane:] I find that quite useful
[Brian:] The erm Scottish Theatre Guide
[Jane:] Yes the Scottish Theatre Guide
[Brian:] I haven't seen one of them for a long time
[Iris:] I'm staying in Aberdeen
[Cathy:] Of course
[Brian:] That was Scottish, Federation Scottish
[Robert:] There's a theatre marketing which is closing it, well, sort of shutting up shop at the end of the month, maybe
[Iris:] So do I, what I like about going home is you can get away
[Brian:] I haven't seen that for a long time
[Robert:] So we're back
[Brian:] this isn't a Federation
[Iris:] That's right
[Brian:] Marketing Committee
[Iris:] that's right, but if you're actually going home it's easy
[Jane:] Cos I seem to remember having so something a long time ago, especially the smaller theatres as well as a touring thing, you know, it'll be handy for you
[Robert:] Yeah
[Brian:] Mm
[Jane:] you know what was going to be where
[Robert:] Yeah I think though, I mean it comes back to sort of wanting to know, we're just talking again about what's on
[Cathy:] Mm
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] we need to know before it's published
[Iris:] That's right
[Robert:] you know you need to know like six months before I, I won't give up
[Brian:] And if everybody does
[Robert:] all sorts of for finding that out, whether you go through the Arts Council
[Jane:] Yeah
[Robert:] you see the Arts Council has a finger in most pies, the only way to find out through them, I mean the trouble is, a lot of it, is going to be confidential
[Jane:] Mm
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] erm
[Brian:] But then if you did it at the stage before, before it gets into the Scottish Theatre Guide you can then make your dates available or you can agree your dates and you can get publicity and that at home.
[Cathy:] Yes, cos that's the thing
[Robert:] That's the thing
[Cathy:] aha
[Iris:] Publicity is the thing
[Robert:] So we need to find
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] But if, if you can find out through Lucy whether or not
[Brian:] Mm
[Robert:] that publication is still on the go, because if it is gonna carry on, on the go, we can maybe get into the
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] editorial of, of the gathering of the information
[Brian:] Mhm
[Jane:] Yes...
[Cathy:] That would be
[Robert:] Yeah, right... erm
[Cathy:] cos the publicity is not just for visually impaired people or even for sponsors, it's for theatres too when they're seeing this and saying ooh, I noticed they're doing that, this, this and this
[Brian:] Mm
[Cathy:] and we're not doing it
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] you see and that would be
[Iris:] Yes that's right
[Cathy:] that'll be an idea wouldn't it?
[Robert:] Talking about publications, one of the things from the last meeting is Iris pointed out the number of theatres in here say they do audio description and I've, I've
[Jane:] yeah
[Cathy:] Oh I, I said that to you at the time Robert, I mean I'll be honest and I saw that document and I nearly died and it's the way they say it too
[Jane:] I don't suppose
[Cathy:] you know
[Robert:] I've been, I've been through them all and er there's only one or two that I've not actually had any contact with actually one way or another. Some of them are people that erm... that I've generally had contact with, in terms of starting to talk to people about it erm, other people are being kind of, what's the word, optimistic, with the truth Likes And The Brides for example, erm
[Jane:] Well we have done it
[Cathy:] We've done it since they lied about what happens
[Jane:] It's like it's like the Arkley one, I want to know, you know and the small and the one Down In The Borders
[Robert:] The one that's Down In The Borders yes, I mean that, I've seen so, another piece of print about that one Down In The Borders and erm... it's, it's not our version of audio description, so I am going to write and linked to that I was going to do a new information sheet, I found the old information sheet so I just bring that up to date
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] I do, I like, do you think I could have a copy of anything you've got to date because lying in my desk this morning is something I have to prepare a briefing note for my chairman and I was thinking about that recent one, but I couldn't put my hand on it Robert, absolutely updated on exactly where we are.
[Robert:] I don't think I've got one here, but I could send you one.
[Cathy:] Could, could you, thanks, thanks Robert, could you fax it?
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Cos he wants it like
[Iris:] Yesterday
[Robert:] What does he want it for?
[Cathy:] Oh, well, because this video has come in
[Jane:] Of course
[Cathy:] it's gone, it's gone to chief execs
[Robert:] Oh I see so they want
[Cathy:] in the Regional Council and they now want to know all about them see
[Robert:] the back ground, yeah
[Cathy:] so that's good, because it might mean money, it means of having
[Robert:] and that's for Counsellor?
[Cathy:] Well no it's the convener, the convener of the whole region
[Robert:] Oh right
[Cathy:] like you know
[Robert:] Yeah, whatever it is
[Cathy:] No, ah, more senior than him, it'll go to him too, but it'll be for everybody's
[Robert:] So what you want then is the sheet we did a few weeks ago just about the erm
[Cathy:] Yeah, give me the update, yes and if you're just updating that a bit, if you're gonna update it then, aha
[Robert:] Right, okay yeah
[Cathy:] Cos it'd be nice to show it's happening here, here, here and there, you know.
[Robert:] Yeah I'm not sure if it mentions the magic words Regional Council, but
[Cathy:] Well you'll have to get that fitted in somehow I'll, I'll fit it
[Robert:] if, if, if not
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER] you can re-type it if you can
[Cathy:] gonna get
[Robert:] It's on the computer though, I think we can manage
[Cathy:] Oh dear
[Robert:] So erm, Advisory Committee being the next item, well we will, we'll have a word from Brian we'll, I haven't approached er David yet in Glasgow meeting, but I will do
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] and obviously Ingy will let us know when she can come and we can talk a little more about the Festival. Erm, I've been thinking that I can't chair this meeting and take the notes and things... when it becomes, and if it, the fund comes through and it becomes the audio description project as opposed to this group, and you know we will be widening out a little bit, I wonder if we should actually have a chairman type person. I haven't spoken to erm, I mean I only thought this coming along in the street, whether there's anybody sort of notable, I mean is it, is, is, is there any value in actually having a figurehead type chairman you know, sort of celebrity type
[Jane:] Yes I think it makes a big difference
[Robert:] type person who you can
[Cathy:] Oh yeah somebody could
[Robert:] push forward to
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] you know snip ribbons and things I dunno, I'm not suggesting will you find out now, but there's something
[Cathy:] yes, interesting angle
[Robert:] If there's anybody that comes to mind. I thought about Tom on more than one occasion because Tom for so many years was the voice of the royal wedding and erm this and that state affairs and things, state occasions and he only lives in Murrayfield, I mean
[Cathy:] A state of affairs is not appropriate at the moment mind you
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER] I heard that
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] They were, they were videoing for this thing and you know, they were over and some of them were doing something and it is somebody you normally and the news and I said the news and actually sort of frozen and the guy said to me, he must of actually seen me frozen there, he said it's okay, it's okay, it's nothing about whatever her name is, you know [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] I said oh no, no, he said I've to go to Brussels you know and it'll be all about, oh I thought I was really dreading it
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] I, I don't know, I, I think it'll be lovely if you can get up a blind person
[Robert:] Mm
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] Mm
[Cathy:] blind actress, a well known blind is it that?
[Jane:] Was a blind actor he's, dead now I think
[Cathy:] Oh is she dead? We don't want
[Jane:] He is
[Cathy:] Oh we don't [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] no she wouldn't she's away, yes, she was away
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] Anyway that's what's involved
[Robert:] Anyway it's a thought
[Jane:] Yes it's a new thought, mhm
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] I mean there's, there's the practical side of actually having, I mean well there's various aspects of it you could have someone as a figurehead
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] who never actually did anything apart from this, sort of push forward to receive cheques from
[Cathy:] The only thing is to make sure that somebody's going to come along, because the worst possible scenario is like
[Robert:] or you could have, or you have
[Cathy:] the Society for the Blind in Glasgow who the lord lady profe
[Jane:] Oh who never turns up for anything
[Cathy:] professed person and they, she, she never turned up at anything
[Iris:] Not even the opening?
[Jane:] She never ever turned up at anything
[Robert:] Never, so I mean you might as well not bother you know
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] or whether you actually have
[Cathy:] In fact it makes you more stupid
[Jane:] Mm
[Robert:] you know working type chairman or something, I don't know, anyway it's just for you to think about it
[Cathy:] Yes, that's it
[Robert:] Right, any other business Iris look forward to the Playback send you about seven hundred pounds
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] and so Jane can now report the, now that's been settled
[Iris:] Yes, thank you, thank you
[Cathy:] That's really good
[Robert:] Erm but er
[Iris:] I thought I was a yesterday, erm
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] something although they were quite, er nothing, nothing to do with er
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] and to pop down to do theatre because I see Paula eat before at Perth
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] and he assured me it is an
[Robert:] Who's this?
[Iris:] ideal little spot to do it audio description from
[Robert:] The commentary booth, yeah
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] because when Marcus and I went we didn't actually see up there, but we could see from down there and
[Iris:] Yes, yes that's yeah
[Cathy:] aha
[Robert:] I think we'll be okay on that
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] Paul of course is leaving
[Cathy:] Oh
[Iris:] Is he? Ah
[Robert:] to go and do something in Dundee, so they've advertised his job
[Jane:] Oh
[Iris:] Oh well we were talking about funding, I've actually got an account for expenses
[Cathy:] Oh right
[Iris:] so that's what the money is about and that's where the money came from
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] I've got I, we're, we're going to get some money from the Ingy fund for the Festival
[Iris:] Mm
[Cathy:] Yes
[Jane:] plus, erm, plus the expenses from us going from Glasgow, I don't know whether anybody from Edinburgh will have expenses, but erm, what shall, where, where shall I ask her to send this cheque for it, I mean I still, there's still an account open for it in Glasgow for audio description
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] Right
[Jane:] but I mean who was, Linda would, would be treasurer
[Iris:] Yeah
[Jane:] has she got an account there?
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] It'll probably be better just to get and then she'll the money for the
[Iris:] Yes that's right
[Jane:] so I'll get them to send it off to Linda
[Iris:] if we, all the information for Linda comes through me anyway
[Jane:] Yes, right, okay, fine
[Iris:] because the address she's put it on is the society's address
[Jane:] Oh is it?
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] Right
[Iris:] which she felt was better than her home address
[Jane:] Aha
[Cathy:] Oh yes aha
[Jane:] right
[Iris:] and I've got the bank book
[Jane:] Fine
[Iris:] so the money is
[Cathy:] I see
[Jane:] I'll get the cheque made payable to and
[Cathy:] Hope you're administering this Robert [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] and then
[Iris:] Robert knows [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] The only question is whether or not Jane has a key to open the drawer in the
[Iris:] I know I couldn't get the, I couldn't find the key for the desk, no...
[Cathy:] That was her story, alright
[Robert:] Oh I've forgot to say under advisory committee, I, this has taken so long, I've completely forgot about it. We do... when we set up this group we asked for a representative
[Jane:] Ah, yes aha
[Robert:] and eventually after some searching they nominated someone who then [LAUGHTER] resigned from her post not Clare
[Cathy:] Clearly because they nominated for
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] in Stirling, central region, erm changed her job or something so that she no longer her, her voice
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] on disability issues and they haven't been able to find anybody else, but what they've said, [reading] despite extensive attempts the convention has not been able to obtain a replacement for this one, due to and buys us time. I'm disappointed that we cannot be represented, but sure you will appreciate position. Please continue to send papers for any relevant meetings and an attempt will be made to respond to appropriate issues, if there is any specific topic you wish to be considered, please do not hesitate to get in touch [] so I thought that was quite a nice letter seeing as I practically read them all
[Cathy:] I would also like a copy of that
[Robert:] Mhm
[Cathy:] because if I enclosed a copy of that with this response to chief execs
[Iris:] Mhm
[Cathy:] that'll kind of filter its way through into and will cause will certain need some
[Robert:] Yes I'm not quite sure of how
[Cathy:] and they won't like that one little bit, they'll amend them because they've done it
[Robert:] Yeah, I mean it's been going on for ages
[Cathy:] I don't think that's
[Robert:] erm
[Cathy:] particularly fair
[Robert:] right, I mean I'm not quite sure how Coslow will go about things, I mean the reason we wanted someone from Coslow is cos we wanted someone from the Federation of Scottish Theatre cos we hadn't heard for a while
[Iris:] Yes
[Robert:] we had Roy and then we had Simon for a bit and then we decided because it wasn't working altogether an Edinburgh person and a Glasgow person
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm
[Cathy:] Well I think it's very important Robert because, I mean as the charter for the arts indicated look at the money that local authorities are spending upstairs to us and really you know we, we are
[Robert:] Well exactly, I mean we have, we sort of, we, we kind of anticipated that
[Cathy:] Oh yes, so I mean come on let's, let's give them another wee push, gently
[Robert:] so, I mean we've erm, I mean I've developed a relationship with David at Coslow
[Cathy:] Yes that's right
[Robert:] so it might be that... he could come, erm, anyway I'll give you a copy of that
[Cathy:] Yes, so that I can just sort of say, you know, we did invite and, that might help
[Iris:] Where are we on
[Robert:] I mean I'm not quite sure how Coslow, how do Coslow sort of nominate their representatives like that? We asked them to put some I've no idea, I mean, did they sort of send someone like you who's... who is an employee
[Cathy:] Well for, for example Phil is our, yeah Phil seems to, to go to some of these meetings and, but mainly it's the elected members
[Robert:] Yeah
[Iris:] Mhm
[Cathy:] and it's usually elected in
[Robert:] Well Glen isn't in fact an elected member
[Cathy:] Ah, right, well, I mean she should be able to give us somebody, God there's, there's ten million of them
[Iris:] I would of thought so that's right
[Cathy:] And it helps you
[Robert:] Cos I was looking at
[Cathy:] with funding, you know, it does help
[Iris:] What about Jimmy?
[Cathy:] because then they go back Jimmy?
[Jane:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Councillor you know people like that...
[Robert:] Yeah anyway
[Cathy:] Yes that would be
[Iris:] where are we with costing and theatres on the nominal charge? What are we doing about that?
[Robert:] Er, I haven't contacted the Citizens in due course, but erm
[Brian:] Yeah
[Robert:] that was a
[Brian:] you have contacted the Lyceum
[Robert:] Have I contacted the Lyceum?
[Cathy:] Oh good we're charging the Lyceum
[Brian:] Yes
[Robert:] Erm
[Brian:] because we agreed to it [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] What was it we said?
[Iris:] Twenty pounds
[Jane:] I was gonna
[Robert:] What I just want to
[Jane:] I was gonna say fifteen
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] To you fifteen
[Cathy:] Everybody say a different figure now
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Iris:] I, I have talked
[Robert:] Are we to invoice
[Iris:] Brampton Theatre asked me how much it was going to cost, so I, off the top of my head I said twenty pounds
[Robert:] Mm
[Iris:] erm thinking that we ought to charge something because to hire the equipment is very expensive
[Robert:] Sure
[Iris:] and if we were looking at running costs and replacing things and and all the rest of it
[Jane:] that's what I'd say, yes, yes
[Robert:] of course
[Iris:] to be, to be replacing that, so I said twenty pounds off the top of my head, so Brampton Theatre have agreed to that as well
[Robert:] Right
[Iris:] and they will
[Robert:] will they pay that as a one er
[Iris:] Yeah, mhm they'll pay
[Robert:] Pay each time
[Iris:] Yeah, yeah
[Robert:] Will you require
[Iris:] Is that either side each time or is that up until Christmas?
[Robert:] Right, presumably if there was a necessity, would there be a necessity to produce an invoice? I mean what would your system
[Cathy:] Mm, yes
[Robert:] require an invoice for that kind of thing?
[Brian:] Yeah
[Cathy:] Oh yes
[Robert:] Well what we might have to do is concoct something up on a letter, a stand have you a standard charge?
[Brian:] but it doesn't matter whether it was, you don't have to do one
[Iris:] You'd do it all
[Brian:] You could do in advance or you could do retrospectively or
[Jane:] Do it as that or you can do it after three months, yes I mean
[Iris:] We could do it up till Christmas, three monthly or something like that
[Brian:] Yeah
[Iris:] Mind, we wouldn't want it every time
[Jane:] Yes, mm
[Robert:] So we need to some time
[Brian:] Too much paper work apart from anything else
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] Yes, that's right it's a pest
[Cathy:] That's good that's good
[Jane:] Yeah
[Cathy:] it just gets a wee bit much
[Iris:] Mm, well it, it keeps you being able to run it so you're
[Brian:] Mm
[Iris:] not stuck
[Robert:] Yes and
[Jane:] That's a hundred and eighty pounds worth there
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] It's too
[Jane:] It's too expensive over, over the holiday season
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] That's right
[Brian:] That's another one for Christmas then
[Jane:] double
[Iris:] It's certainly cheaper than the way you were doing it
[Brian:] It's certainly cheaper than three hundred and fifty quid, they showed up
[Iris:] that's it exactly and that's crazy
[Robert:] Right I don't think I've got any other things
[Iris:] You could of bought your own equipment
[Brian:] Yeah
[Iris:] by now
[Jane:] Yes you could of
[Iris:] it's a shame
[speaker004:] ...
[Robert:] Erm, oh I have got something else, which is music, erm, at the last meeting I said I've been talking to Simon from the Queen's Hall, about the idea of doing pre-concert notes
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] not, not actually doing an audio description of the conductor
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] and again, and again
[Jane:] Worried about doing ballet [LAUGHTER]
[Robert:] One thing, one thing about it, it's crossed my mind a long time ago is er the idea of erm in the half hour or whatever twenty minutes before a concert, doing er concert programme notes
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] particularly if there's you know heavy
[Jane:] Mm
[Robert:] information about a particular piece, so, Simon and I sort of, we were talking kind of fairly casually about that, but erm, what we agreed to do is, this was about the time when we first got the equipment I think and it, it occurred to me that you, and I've checked this now, that you can actually plug a cassette, you know, a Walkman type of player into either the microphone for the
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] radio system or
[Cathy:] Aha
[Robert:] indeed into the infra red if you were using the, I mean obviously that's a small scale, probably wouldn't, erm, so the idea of actually putting some concert notes onto a tape or indeed doing it live, so anyway Simon is away on holiday, after the Festival but I've arranged Cannon principal and for him and you
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] and his most regular blind patron who you know Mrs
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] to
[Iris:] Ann mhm
[Robert:] to kind of just get together with someone he's identified a person whose name I can't remember but he's got a chamber orchestra
[Iris:] Right
[Robert:] what I was interested in knowing in was for example whether he's got his chamber orchestra repeated their same concert five or six times in different cities
[Cathy:] Mm
[Robert:] I just, it's just a sort of an idea at this stage, I'm not wanting to take up ogres of time on this, but
[Jane:] I'm quite weary of doing it with a, with a full set and everything it's, it's, it's, awfully tiring for taking the system
[Robert:] Yeah
[Jane:] down and, and may well be just one person requiring and you've got somebody else to go down
[Robert:] Yeah, well there may be other mechanisms of doing it
[Jane:] with it and hand it out week and then at the concert collect it at the end again
[Robert:] Yeah
[Jane:] it's a kind of thing that I think could be put and take and people could pick up at the box office
[Iris:] Yeah I think so
[Robert:] Yeah, well maybe that's what we, we
[Jane:] You could pick it up beforehand at the box office
[Iris:] Well maybe that's what you do, yeah
[Jane:] Er, yes
[Robert:] Erm, you know, maybe it's something we can do in just a one off during the winter
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] you know if the SEL are doing concerts on the basis of six or seven of the same, I'm, I, I really don't know enough about it
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] and it maybe something that we can get one person to come into Playback
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] make up a, a note and then you
[Cathy:] How did the home of the brave do their thing? That was to do with head sets?
[Jane:] Eh, to do with head sets yes
[Cathy:] Aha, nothing to do with
[Iris:] And that was picked up
[Robert:] Our infra reds there
[Iris:] They're infra red, yeah
[Cathy:] That's picked up right then
[Robert:] So, so there is something
[Jane:] I mean Margaret, have you been to it Cath?
[Cathy:] No
[Jane:] Margaret was at it really she said really it was not much for blind people
[Cathy:] No and I've
[Iris:] No it's not
[Cathy:] I've spoke to Colin to just to try and cope with it
[Iris:] And the crowds
[Cathy:] and the aha
[Jane:] Yes, aha
[Cathy:] very difficult for blind people
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] No we were not
[Iris:] There was lots of
[Cathy:] consulted or asked or involved or anything like that
[Iris:] there's lots of things you could touch
[Cathy:] Yes though, yes
[Iris:] which is good
[Cathy:] which is good, makes a change, aha
[Robert:] So that's the only other sort of bit of sort of
[Jane:] The other thing is I mean, erm, the, the Trone did it a couple of years ago, they haven't done it this year they
[Iris:] Er, no, yes
[Jane:] recorded they got, somebody recorded
[Iris:] that's right
[Jane:] the, the entire winter programme the next three months of programme on tape, several plays there were
[Cathy:] Not that you did, erm
[Jane:] and I think there was a bit of a up the place
[Cathy:] Aha
[Jane:] and they had they, we copied them
[Cathy:] That's right
[Jane:] and we had half a dozen of them at the box office and if anyone, I think we still sent them out if anyone wanted them
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] but it meant people could go up to the box office and take a tape recorder and sit and listen to them
[Cathy:] Right
[Jane:] I think they had to take the
[Robert:] Oh we did that as well, you had the
[Cathy:] Morag does it, Morag does it for them anyway
[Jane:] Yes, so it's quite good to have that kind of thing to publicize.
[Cathy:] Yes it would be good to get the Trone to do that again, we must have again
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] cos that stopped
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] I mean he was doing that before we ever started audio description and now
[Robert:] They've been doing it for some time at the Biro, Perth is
[Cathy:] Oh yes does, does the Biro
[Robert:] At St Andrew's
[Cathy:] do the Biro not do it using actors now then as well?
[Iris:] Yes they do
[Robert:] they actually use the actors who are going to be there because it's easier
[Cathy:] This wasn't, this was just a programme
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] cos Alan says he gets copies of that from the Biro Theatre
[Iris:] Yes that's right
[Cathy:] I mean it's a jolly good idea it really is
[Robert:] So there are a few initiatives there, but I don't think there's been done anything on the music front though.
[Iris:] We do yours from the information that goes out
[Brian:] Mhm
[Iris:] Morag records it in newspaper
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] so it's on our tapes anyway
[Robert:] Right
[Iris:] so it could go on a separate tape if you wanted that to happen, it's on a Mazda tape
[Cathy:] Mm
[Iris:] so it could go on tapes, we could do it
[Robert:] Right
[Cathy:] It's easy for you to have it at the theatre, mhm
[Robert:] to take a copy from that
[Iris:] Yeah
[Robert:] Yeah
[Iris:] Could easily do that
[Jane:] I perhaps could
[Iris:] easily do that
[Jane:] they could pick from me up here or, even send it out
[Iris:] yeah could even have some at the theatre and
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Morag does it anyway
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] so there's no point in duplicating it
[Jane:] No
[Robert:] so in a way that's not really audio description, although it's
[Jane:] No
[Robert:] obviously
[Iris:] No
[Robert:] closely linked, but it's not really
[Jane:] But it's always a, a joy for blind people to go to the theatre
[Robert:] Yeah
[Iris:] Mhm
[Jane:] if they're involved, yes
[Iris:] that's right...
[Robert:] Right, I've nothing else, has anybody else have any other topics? Ah, good erm
[Jane:] That's rather nice, ah nice
[Cathy:] It is, it's nice most of them don't work, I've got
[Robert:] Date of next meeting?
[Cathy:] a lovely one over there
[Jane:] Oh
[Robert:] Yes I've been looking at that and thinking we'll take it, mm
[Cathy:] Its great isn't it?
[Jane:] Probably worth a fortune I find
[Cathy:] Present it to us yes and doesn't work
[Iris:] Oh and doesn't work, well
[Robert:] [LAUGHTER]
[Iris:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jane:] Maybe because it's not wound up
[Iris:] Is the mouse dead?
[Jane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathy:] the time of day and er
[Jane:] Yeah you're quite right, yes...
[Brian:] Can I ask just a little, it's quite a big question actually, I don't know if anybody will answer it. Is there any research
[Jane:] Probably not
[Brian:] on the size or the whereabouts of the potential markets that we have as a theatre?
[Robert:] Well this is something that we have talked about
[Brian:] I mean we touched on how we're going to reach some, but is there any
[Robert:] this is something we've, we've talked about and in fact Lucy and I have talked about it
[Brian:] Mhm
[Robert:] actually we, mm, at some length and had a few ideas, erm I've got an appointment with someone at the Arts Council in a couple of weeks that the Arts Council's got a new fund called erm... consultants in research and I thought I'd make a bid to see if we can get someone
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Robert:] to research this audience and ways of getting to it
[Cathy:] Mhm
[Iris:] Mhm
[Jane:] Presumably you know roughly how many people are, are already
[Cathy:] If you look at the number on the register, I've got three and a half thousand
[Iris:] Already we can give you these numbers I mean we've got
[Cathy:] Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything if you're getting ten people turning up
[Iris:] It doesn't mean anything
[Brian:] No, but it means, it means that we know how we've got to gear up
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] Yes to a lot of things
[Jane:] I think what we needs is a
[Brian:] What we're ready to pitch that sort of thing
[Cathy:] That's right, I think what means something is this overall figure and then erm a kind of er an information giving part which points out that what, you know, what seventy five per cent of my twelve thousand had over sixty five
[Brian:] Mm
[Cathy:] fifty per cent over seventy five
[Robert:] Mhm
[Cathy:] but a piece of research would be very good because that would help in honesty when you're trying to get erm organized with er transport and things
[Robert:] Yeah
[Jane:] That's why we're saying transport important because the majority of people are over seventy five
[Brian:] Sure, but it also goes down to do with erm, matinee and doing the evening performance
[Cathy:] But what, that's right
[Iris:] Yes, what should, aha
[Cathy:] and there's also
[Iris:] that's right and there's also people who have been to the theatre before that's not an audience who have
[Cathy:] Yes, no, oh no
[Brian:] And the audience, yeah
[Cathy:] and it's not like the deaf audience had, had dealing with the have a hearing audience, yes that are older, but the deaf audience which is very young, but other audiences and people who have lost their sight
[Iris:] Yes
[Cathy:] have been to theatre
[Robert:] Mhm
[Cathy:] and who really, could, yeah
[Iris:] Who have once enjoyed the theatre, yes
[Robert:] The sort of thing is
[Iris:] it's bringing them back
[Robert:] Yeah, the sort of thing Lucy and I were talking about earlier is, it was just before I went on holiday so my memory is kind of hazy, it's one where I was going to see the Arts Council and see if they were interested in the idea if they work
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] you know this is the initial chat if they're interested, you know, you suddenly put paper and go back to Lucy and say okay, let's write this down
[Iris:] Right, right
[Robert:] but I mean it was things like doing questionnaires maybe telephone question phoning people up you know that your three and a half, well not all of them but an example
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] and she seemed fairly confident about her questionnaire in developing the right question in questionnaire, but I suppose that would be in conjunction with people like you
[Brian:] Mm
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] erm to, to sort of engage a response. It was, it was as much to do with what kind of things would you like to see
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] listen to
[Cathy:] Yes, cos that's the other bit isn't it? Aha
[Robert:] as, as, it's the choice aspect of it as well as the sort of, if there was an audio description would you go and you know
[Jane:] Mhm
[Robert:] what kind of things do you want to have audio described, so there are, I mean there's still quite a bit, but she got quite excited about the idea of involving one of the proper, well not proper, one of the, you know, official professional market research firms, as well in terms of doing this work, maybe, maybe getting money from the Arts Council to actually pay them
[Iris:] Mhm
[Robert:] to do it, although, whether they have this appropriate kind of sensitivity of not I don't know
[Jane:] No, mhm
[Robert:] so it, it is a sort of it's a kind of sort of liveish topic it's sort of in one of those stages where it's not actually happening yet because a
[Jane:] But I mean erm, I mean it it's blatantly obviously at this
[Cathy:] I think there's a, there's
[Jane:] point your thinking how can we get people involved.
[Cathy:] How can we get the people, yeah.
[Jane:] I mean I worked at, as an open afternoon or something where we invite like into the theatre
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] find out what, feel around the theatre,
[Iris:] Yes
[Jane:] get onto the stage, feel a set, talk to some of the actors
[Robert:] Talk to the costume people
[Jane:] talk to the costume people you know, talk about make up because a lot of
[Cathy:] Yes, cos remember at the beginning of all this audio description lots a chat about including all that
[Jane:] That's right
[Cathy:] I was horrified because you know it's like bringing blind people in, doing all this, but something like that, open day, whatever, that'll be wonderful
[Jane:] That would
[Cathy:] that'll be great fun
[Iris:] Yeah
[Cathy:] would encourage people to
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] That's right, if you're organizing something like that and thinking about it from now, this is only the first of September, but
[Jane:] Yes
[Iris:] Newspeak's already out
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] That's right
[Iris:] so the only, the... that the easiest way for me to do
[Jane:] Playback's out yeah
[Iris:] Playback's out as well, the easiest way for us to get to people is through these
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] tapes
[Jane:] Tapes
[Iris:] now the next one doesn't go out until October so you would have to have something in November
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] to give people time to organize it
[Cathy:] I think yeah two, two months ahead
[Robert:] That would be okay, I mean
[Cathy:] to let you mention it once
[Iris:] two months ahead
[Cathy:] let you mention it again
[Iris:] at least two months ahead
[Cathy:] and go on about it again
[Iris:] so if you had a date in November that you could give me, time to get people together
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] I have a huge group of people who meet the first Thursday in every month
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] so even to get them there
[Jane:] Yes
[Cathy:] That would help a lot
[Iris:] would be a good er
[Cathy:] Yes getting them in the door is the
[Jane:] get them in the door
[Cathy:] The blind people respond really
[Jane:] wanted to come back, yeah
[Cathy:] well to somewhere they've been
[Iris:] Yeah
[Jane:] That's right
[Cathy:] and if they've been there, people have been really nice to them
[Jane:] Mhm
[Cathy:] and it's been good fun, they do want to come back
[Iris:] I have thirty or forty people who meet once a month for
[Cathy:] Oh that's excellent
[Iris:] first Thursday in the month
[Cathy:] Aha
[Iris:] and we could get them to you
[Robert:] Mhm
[Iris:] cos their meeting could just be with you
[Robert:] Mhm
[Cathy:] Yes good idea
[Iris:] for that afternoon
[Jane:] That'll be ideal, yes
[Cathy:] That'll be ideal
[Robert:] Mm, yeah
[Cathy:] I think that's a wonderful idea
[Jane:] Yes
[Robert:] easily organized
[Jane:] Mhm
[Iris:] If they could see the theatre to see what was going on and an example of audio description
[Jane:] Get them into the theatre without a lot of sighted people to push through that's what it's like, yes
[Iris:] Yes, that's right, yes
[Cathy:] Yes
[Jane:] and find out where the, the la ladies is
[Cathy:] Where the loo, it's as simple as that, yes
[Jane:] all that kind of thing, yes
[Robert:] Yeah
[Cathy:] It's having that knowledge you know
[Iris:] That's right trying to get people together for that Japanese
[Jane:] Let them take
[Iris:] night
[Cathy:] I remember Japanese night
[Iris:] but that was very difficult to organize because they, they never give us time and, and
[Jane:] That's right, yeah
[Iris:] if you don't have two months, you can't do it
[Cathy:] No you can't, you really have time
[Iris:] you've got to have two months, mm
[Brian:] So your publ your publishing date for this is October?
[Iris:] First of October it'll go out
[Brian:] First of October
[Iris:] Mhm and Iris
[Jane:] Probably round about then
[Brian:] and then you'll need that

[Alan:] You could assess them on on... on that, and just say right I I think you're a... and A or a B... on this particular booklet.
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] Because I've done it, with you. I mean, that's no reason, but we shouldn't be sort of saying, well look let's not, lets all not do this booklet now
[Cath:] Mm.
[Alan:] and I think it's something that we ourselves... should look at.
[Cath:] Yeah, I I just wondered because there are some of them that don't have any relevance to national curriculum and I want to
[Alan:] Why?
[Cath:] I just thought maybe, you know, sort of miss them out... do level one.
[Judith:] Do another type?
[Cath:] Do level one and level two, the ones that you you have to do... and if there's any time left at the end of the year do the ones that... that you missed out.
[Judith:] That are left, aha.
[Alan:] Yeah!
[Cath:] You know that
[Judith:] Ah
[Cath:] you know are, are non-essential.
[Alan:] I'm sure that, would the would they be flexible and and and look at, I mean certain things... you know... rhombus and parallelogram.
[Judith:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Do you really feel
[Cath:] It's just that
[Alan:] that that's... terribly
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Alan:] important?
[Cath:] And it,the there are some of the extension... that are much more appropriate.
[Alan:] Yes, we don't, yes
[Cath:] And some of the children never ever get to the extension booklets!
[Judith:] Have you... do you think it... it might be better for some of the brighter ones to stretch them, to go through the whole... lot... do you know what I mean? Instead of just doing all of one A... you know how yo, how you follow the the... the map?
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Judith:] To do, go through and do the extensions at the same time, follow the topic straight
[Alan:] Mhm.
[Judith:] through.
[Cath:] It would be
[Judith:] Do you think they would
[Alan:] Sometimes it is, yes.
[Cath:] It would be... it would be better for them than doing all the extensions together... cos doing all the extension booklets
[Judith:] I know.
[Cath:] together is really hard!
[Judith:] I don't think it it is
[Alan:] It's hard.
[Judith:] and it's erm... I don't
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Judith:] think it's very meaningful to them.
[Cath:] Yeah. What I've, what I've tended to do is to do two B and two E
[Alan:] Together?
[Cath:] together.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] That mi, that might be more
[Judith:] Aha.
[Alan:] sensible.
[Judith:] Well I haven't, you see but I I've thought about it and thought
[Cath:] Yeah
[Judith:] it would be a good
[Cath:] I've done
[Judith:] idea.
[Cath:] I've done that, cos what I've said to them is well it's, it's too much for you to do all the extensions together.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] Mhm.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Cath:] If you do two B and two E, and two E and three A.
[Judith:] Mm.
[Alan:] Mhm.
[Cath:] And mix them.
[Alan:] Yes, so you, you would you would look
[Cath:] Cos three A's easy isn't it?
[Alan:] Ooh, ooh yes! You would look at one A and one B
[Judith:] Well that's it, they find that
[Alan:] probably together
[Judith:] a doddle don't they?
[Alan:] would you?
[Judith:] After doing er
[Alan:] Oh!
[Judith:] Sorry?
[Alan:] One A and one B so so yo yo or or would you have all of yours completing one A before they started on one B?
[Judith:] Well... have you got
[Alan:] Or do you
[Judith:] that map? Is it in there... or not, the map?
[Cath:] Yeah it's in it's in that... the that.
[Alan:] one.
[Judith:] You know, the map that we've got all or not?
[Cath:] There.
[Alan:] You mean with all the
[Judith:] Aye, it's not in there is it?
[Cath:] Aye, the one that, the one that we printed out.
[Judith:] Is it? Yeah, that's it! No, that's er
[Ian:] It doesn't give all them
[Alan:] No, it doesn't. Er
[Judith:] Mm.
[Alan:] I don't know where the map came from originally
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] but it wasn't in this book.
[Judith:] Well the, I me, it does follow across doesn't it?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Judith:] From one A... one B
[Cath:] That's two A, two B
[Alan:] That's it.
[Cath:] and two E, so that
[Judith:] That's right, yeah
[Cath:] that shows that one.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] Yes, you see... the... the they're suggesting that when you've done area one... that you might like to
[Judith:] Aha.
[Ian:] go on to multiplicational area.
[Cath:] Aha.
[Ian:] And that, if you've done... erm... bum bum bum... digging into history... that you could do coordinates and coordinate patterns.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Cath:] Well it's, it's not so much a suggestion it's more that you can't do multiplicational area until
[Ian:] Oh yes!
[Cath:] you've done area one
[Judith:] Aha.
[Cath:] isn't it?
[Ian:] Yes.
[Judith:] Yeah.
[Ian:] But I think the link-up is suggesting that
[Judith:] Mm.
[Ian:] you could
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Ian:] just... follow on there.
[Judith:] Mhm. So really the they're working on the whole scheme then... er
[Cath:] Well
[Judith:] from one to four aren't they? Some
[Cath:] A
[Judith:] of them, do you think it'll
[speaker005:] I I tend
[Judith:] create problems
[speaker005:] I tend to sa sa to say right... you know, one A and one B... are all out together.
[Judith:] Oh yes, that
[Alan:] but
[Judith:] that's... but once they start
[Alan:] well I didn't used to, I used to have one A at the beginning... but of course, it was impractical because the... there weren't enough booklets to go round.
[Cath:] Well... I mean a... all the reasonable kids... don't do... all
[Alan:] No.
[Cath:] the numbers one, two, three, four, five anyway. So
[Alan:] No
[Cath:] that's
[Alan:] but you still have to take care in case somebody says well I've just done fractions two, and you say but... you haven't done fractions
[Cath:] Yeah!
[Alan:] one!
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER] You know []!
[Cath:] Aha.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Cath:] Yeah, but I mean the bright ones do the... the bypass sheet... they have the fractions one, and they
[Judith:] The fractions and the
[Cath:] don't do that either!
[Judith:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ian:] Yeah and if you block it all... you're gonna get some kids who will never... go beyond number.
[Alan:] Yes, the ma, the ma
[Ian:] They won't experience
[Alan:] They might and they
[Judith:] No.
[Alan:] might concentrate
[Judith:] No, I me yes, no, it's not practical to do the whole lot but to erm
[Cath:] But, well certainly lo one and two you could couldn't
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Cath:] you?
[Judith:] Mhm. See, you just use your own judgements, some
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Judith:] some kids, you know
[Alan:] I mean I do I don't think that as a department
[Judith:] Depends on the ability of the child.
[Alan:] we should start saying this is what we all do.
[Judith:] Yeah.
[Alan:] We we do
[Cath:] Mhm. Mhm.
[Alan:] what we feel... we want them to do and
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] what see it seems...
[Judith:] I think it, this is whole scheme is just a case experimenting and trying things... with different work
[Alan:] By the time we ge
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] By the time we get it right
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, after about ten years []!
[Alan:] the scheme will be redundant or we'll have retired at
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER] That's right []!
[Alan:] you know, but er... that's what it's all about.
[Judith:] Yes, you'll go and somebody'll come in a say, oh I don't like this [LAUGHTER] and get rid of it []!
[Alan:] Yes, when I retire somebody'll say well we're gonna do, smile now!
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ian:] So you're not bothered if at the end of... the two years they haven't... even
[Cath:] Reached level four
[Ian:] the best kids haven't reached level four? Because
[Alan:] I would
[Ian:] have... working three lessons a week... some of mine are scarce, sort of struggle to onto four.
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] I'm not saying that I wouldn't say
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] I'm not bothered but I would be happier if... they will... very familiar with the work that they have done
[Ian:] Mhm.
[Alan:] rather than
[Ian:] Mhm.
[Alan:] race through
[Judith:] But you might find that it's
[Alan:] the booklet.
[Judith:] it's... easier because you missed some booklets out,.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Alan:] You wi they will have had support... and yo you might say we're gonna miss... little things out that... we've already covered on or are not relevant anyway... erm... I think we've just gotta wa, just got to see how it works... and
[Ian:] A are we going to decide... what we think can be missed out?
[Alan:] No, I think, I think
[Ian:] No,, yeah.
[Alan:] I think you yourself can decide what you want to miss out.
[Judith:] From what you've taught in that third lesson
[Ian:] Alright.
[Judith:] really isn't it, a lot of it?
[Alan:] So,we we're looking there at a a a reasonable amount of... sort of... extra work but I I think we will find a benefit... [cough] from doing that.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Judith:] I say, we might
[Alan:] Part
[Judith:] if we sort through all the work sheets we've got we might find... you know
[Cath:] So
[Alan:] Yes.
[Cath:] some
[Judith:] quite a few
[Cath:] Are we going to try and get some work sheets?
[Alan:] I think one of our first
[Cath:] that we can... we can
[Alan:] jobs
[Cath:] all use.
[Ian:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Cath:] Are we also going to try and match those up with the attainment targets, so that we can say they've completed... a work sheet successfully?
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] Yes.
[Cath:] We can give them something.
[Judith:] Yes, we'll put that on... mhm.
[Cath:] Put it on their record?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Cath:] And we could, if we've gotta collect evidence we could use those work sheets as evidence.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] And we've also got
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] yes,we we've got to look at this... in in in... in the assessment er... procedures as well but we've go we've got to try and link this up with er the... the the computer work that we're doing... erm... we we've got I I I think really we we should have... possibly a reasonably hefty session one evening next week to say right, how are we going to put this into practice? Let's, you know... I mean Judith's saying, well I've got some good work sheets on this, I mean we can all say that... if we... all know where the work sheets are
[Cath:] Mhm... I think hoiked most of mine!
[Ian:] No but
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER] I think I've cleared
[Alan:] Mine are pretty dog-eared
[Cath:] Well yes, yes I've think I've had
[Judith:] Oh I've got loads!
[Cath:] I had a damn good clear out I think most of mine have gone.
[Judith:] Hundreds!
[Cath:] I might have a copy of some.
[Ian:] Well it seems pretty pointless, me sort of saying oh here, you know, they're never gonna get the hang of negative numbers and Judith saying, oh I've got an excellent work sheet, and you think well, you know
[Cath:] Mm.
[Ian:] if I'd known about that that would of great!
[Cath:] Mm.
[Ian:] I think if we all know what's available it would, it would be a lot easier than, than just operating as as... you know, five separate units.
[Judith:] Oh yes, I think so... for that, and, so then we've gotta bank our work sheets
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Judith:] what we keep in the... then, just all to use.
[Ian:] I mean it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be easy but... if we start developing it erm... there's no reason
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] why... you know, it shouldn't work reasonably well.
[Judith:] Go and get my down and get a bit more room. [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Right, well we've only got erm... not much more than ten minutes left... erm, I'm ri... I'm... well we've got to be... we've got to be early for lunch so... you'll need to go
[Cath:] It's only across there! Take us ten minutes
[Alan:] you'll need to go
[Cath:] to walk there.
[Alan:] and shower and such like.
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER] And change []!
[Alan:] Well you can stay here till twenty five past if you want... that's up to you!
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Erm... am I right in thinking that this after, that this afternoon... your
[Cath:] I'm, I'm technology for the rest of the
[Alan:] right.
[Cath:] for the two days
[Alan:] And I'm somewhere else.
[Judith:] It's just us two... we're gonna do
[Alan:] and you're
[Judith:] our assessment
[Alan:] you're looking at... graduated assessment?
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] Okay. You won't be around... for... the other sessions
[Cath:] No... that's me finished.
[Alan:] aye, is
[Cath:] and I'm not
[Alan:] how many sessions are there this after,da do we have a session together this afternoon or not?
[Ian:] Yes.
[Judith:] Yeah.
[Ian:] Well yo you're... not... just... just the three of us.
[Alan:] Is there only one session this afternoon?
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Ian:] Two... there's the one with... Judith and I... and then... you join us... for the last session.
[Alan:] Right... that's fine then! So we'll sta... er you do erm... graduated assessment this afternoon, then we'll start looking at... erm, our assessment procedures... we, you know... S M P national curriculum... and I mean, if you're not around... you know... well
[Cath:] I can't do the presentation.
[Alan:] you know
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Aye.
[Judith:] What presentation?
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Aye.
[Ian:] Don't know about a presentation.
[Judith:] Yeah, I don't anything about a presentation.
[Alan:] Mhm, well you will when you're sitting in front of the staff tomorrow so don't
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] So erm... you know,wha what else do we feel... I mean,tha that's... that will take up this afternoon,wha what else do we feel is... you know... vitally... er, important
[Judith:] Ooh, how about a jacuzzi?
[Alan:] so I should remember remember that there's a, you know it
[Judith:] Having a jacuzzi!
[Alan:] I do ju [LAUGHTER] hey []!
[Ian:] There you are.
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] That's Judith... er er speaking jacuzzi first!
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Judith:] Wasn't me!
[Alan:] The head, the head... has said he wants er... a duplicate copy of this!
[Ian:] Has he?
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]... He he's slipped
[Alan:] Right.
[Judith:] me a few quid to give him and what have you!
[Alan:] Right Judith the ja jacuzzi for Judith, right.
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Erm... well in actual fact er... S M you know, S M P er erm... national curriculum is is... gonna take us... an
[Cath:] Forever!
[Judith:] Mm.
[Alan:] so
[Cath:] Well look, if if... you're wanting the next thing to do, I mean you've done that for seventh year
[Alan:] Aha... yes.
[Cath:] Is it not worth sitting and thinking what you're gonna do with the eighth year?
[Alan:] Some of the things for eighth year, oh yes!
[Ian:] Yes,
[Alan:] Yes. But I do I think... that would be very useful... but we've got to make sure that we get this assessment... started, so, if we don't get round to eighth year... then that's tough!
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] We've got seventh year, sorted... erm... I think we've gotta look at the assessment. Now,we while you're here... you know wha... just to sort of ten minutes... erm... I mean Ian's produced these... sheets
[Cath:] Yep.
[Alan:] which we can photocopy
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] now now basically what we're thinking is... that... no, we're not thinking, we haven't really got round to that! But I I would feel that that
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] you know we we must be talking about July... when we sh when we present, when we produce... erm... one of these pieces of paper.
[Judith:] For the present year seven? And eight
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Judith:] or just
[Alan:] Yeah
[Judith:] seven?
[Alan:] Seven and eight.
[Cath:] Sorry, one of these pieces of paper?
[Judith:] Well one of these records.
[Alan:] National curriculum records.
[Cath:] Oh right!
[Alan:] Now, I don't know whether... what other people would, would say about doing it the way we're suggesting... like... somebody has completed... levels... one A, one B, and two A, therefore they've got this and perhaps
[Cath:] Mm.
[Alan:] a few odds and ends added to it?
[Cath:] You're wanting to produce a certificate for the kids is that what you're talking about?
[Alan:] Well, not a certificate, just a record
[Judith:] No just our records!
[Alan:] just the national curriculum
[Ian:] Just a record!
[Judith:] They're records!
[Alan:] record sheet!
[Judith:] Who, haven't got it.
[Ian:] You not seen them?
[Cath:] No.
[Alan:] Ah!
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []!
[Alan:] Look at this, straight in the briefcase
[Cath:] Oh!
[Alan:] and it's there!... No it's not!
[Judith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Oh I've got my national curriculum in here as well! Erm
[Cath:] Did you hear, that was Alan just [LAUGHTER] making it []
[Alan:] I wondered where that had gone! [LAUGHTER]
[Ian:] Hadn't I lost it, no?
[Alan:] No, I did definitely bring it.
[Cath:] Well look... why don't you just... sketch it out on there so I know the sort of thing that yo... oh, you've got one have you?
[Ian:] Ian's got me one!
[Cath:] Hey, Ian I'm glad somebody's organised! [LAUGHTER]
[Judith:] Oh!
[Ian:] Do you want the old one or the new one?
[Alan:] The newer one.
[Ian:] Right.
[Cath:] Right... yeah, I knew
[Ian:] This is it.
[Cath:] that you'd done that because I started it as well on the computer
[Ian:] Right... well I've done it... all the way through.
[Cath:] Right fine.
[Ian:] Right up there to the yellow books.
[Alan:] Right.
[Cath:] So what are you wanting from me?
[Alan:] Right, so wha what we're looking at... is... you know... we we would have... that
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] now, you're gonna get anybody with that, but let's suppose that you did have somebody that was really... there... we... want that blacked out really
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] and we would need to have national curriculum, name, date... and so on which
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] I mean, just a few odds and ends that you could do from your... nice
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] printing on the computer
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] now, what we would say like, if somebody has erm... you know, by the end of year seven... done that
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Alan:] right, this would be the national curriculum record so we'd have something, but I don't know that it's wise... to
[Ian:] No.
[Alan:] to really have that in to say look you know, to make it that obvious.
[Ian:] Well I mean that wasn't in for that reason.
[Alan:] No.
[Ian:] It's not
[Alan:] Oh yeah!
[Ian:] I wasn't thinking ahead to a final document.
[Alan:] S so we would look at that... and you would need as well to be looking at
[Cath:] Blacking in... what, levels one
[Alan:] li
[Cath:] and two
[Alan:] little bits
[Cath:] and anything else that... we
[Alan:] and anything else
[Cath:] we're saying that
[Alan:] there
[Cath:] we're going to cover
[Alan:] Aha.
[Cath:] on there.
[Alan:] But... I mean when you think how long it was taking us... taking a blank one of, and I know the
[Cath:] One of them.
[Alan:] attainment targets have changed, but a blank one of those, and colouring the damn, ooh sorry Pete! The er, things in erm... you know, I mean, that was horrendous!
[Judith:] Why?
[Cath:] Well it was me that did that in the first place
[Alan:] Yes.
[Cath:] for the other one so I know! [LAUGHTER]
[Ian:] It has to be remembered as well that this is my interpretation of the blurb that S M P have sent out.
[Alan:] We're happy with your
[Ian:] Because
[Alan:] interpretation.
[Ian:] I mean... the first time at a lower level... something appeared, I shaded half a square
[Cath:] That's what I
[Alan:] Yeah!
[Cath:] did!
[Ian:] and next time it appeared
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Ian:] I shaded the full square
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Ian:] in, now whether that's right or not I don't
[Cath:] That's
[Ian:] know.
[Cath:] that's what I did, and I I thought the same thing. Really, what we needed to do was to read through make sure that it was covered adequately... but on the other hand, if they've come across something... twice... and... not if i, if it was in brackets I didn't count it, did you do
[Ian:] Mm.
[Cath:] that as well? If it was just in brackets then I ignored it
[Ian:] Yeah.
[Cath:] it had to appear twice properly
[Ian:] Aha.
[Cath:] before I coloured it in.
[Alan:] Yes, I mean the other thing is if we are absolutely honest, which we shouldn't be with a microphone in front of us but, if we're absolutely honest, you know... this, this is a bit of work that we're trying to make simple
[Cath:] Aha.
[Alan:] when is anybody going to come... and make use of that?
[Cath:] The o the only thing is... that when the kids do the sats
[Alan:] Yes.
[Cath:] Right?
[Judith:] Aha.
[Cath:] And they are given a level from the sats... how are you going to record that on there?
[Judith:] Mm.
[Cath:] And how are you going to record... ar are you still... you see, you can't use colours, if you're gonna do it that
[Alan:] So
[Cath:] way
[Alan:] this would just be dated... and then... er, by year nine... they would have... er, a nineteen ninety three one, a nineteen ninety four one, and nineteen ninety five one.
[Cath:] Right, so you need a year as well?
[Judith:] You're going a
[Cath:] Really that you need a space for dates.
[Judith:] Are you going to explain to me this afternoon how this works are you?
[Cath:] Well if they've finished one A, you photocopy that.
[Ian:] If they've finished level one A.
[Cath:] You give them one of them.
[Ian:] You photocopy that with their name on.
[Judith:] Oh! Oh, well that's good!
[Ian:] If they've finished one
[Cath:] Yeah?
[Ian:] B, you photocopy that and put their name on.
[Alan:] But we're not, but we're not going to da, we're going to do it one by one... next July you will say where is a kid? Right
[Cath:] And then you just say I've got five
[Ian:] there'll be three A
[Cath:] who have finished one A
[Ian:] get a three A sheet out their name on.
[Alan:] then you get a three A sheet
[Judith:] So you won't need all the others?
[Ian:] No, no.
[Cath:] The on, the only, the only
[Judith:] Oh right!
[Cath:] that you still... either gonna have to fill in anything else that you've covered with them
[Alan:] Aha.
[Ian:] And attainment
[Cath:] separately
[Ian:] target one.
[Alan:] That's the one.
[Cath:] Attainment target one.
[Alan:] But, even then I was thinking that we might, in actual fact, start looking at attainment target one and certainly fill in, you know
[Cath:] Mm.
[Alan:] the first, I mean... there's
[Ian:] Mm.
[Alan:] no way that we could
[Cath:] Level one I think are we, are we ignoring
[Alan:] level one and level two
[Cath:] what, I, are we ignoring the stuff that comes primary school then?
[Judith:] Well, it'll be interesting to have them, but I mean
[Alan:] It'll be interesting to have it, but I mean we
[Judith:] you can't sort of
[Alan:] we've got to asses kids on that.
[Judith:] assume that they're at that level when they come to us and... follow on from there.
[Cath:] See I sometimes wonder whether it's not worth giving them some kind of er... a proper test.
[Ian:] National curriculum test.
[Cath:] When they come in
[Judith:] The beginning.
[Ian:] Mhm.
[Judith:] Mm.
[Cath:] and saying... right well... you're at level
[Alan:] Well that, that was another thing that we did debate
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] should we in actual fact... produce
[Cath:] Give them give them time to settle in.
[Judith:] Well we we should, well yes because I suppose eventually we could have them fo, we've got one now haven't we, for the end of year eight?
[Alan:] Aha... but if you
[Judith:] Well we can it off the end of year seven and... one for the begi, for next year so they
[Alan:] Well no if... if we wanted to we, we could produce erm a level three test.
[Cath:] I mean when they when they do the sats
[Judith:] What i, what's what is it we've got now? Three, four
[Cath:] when the
[Judith:] and five?
[Cath:] when they, when the a the, when they do the sats... then we'll, we'll have something that we can trust, won't we? When they have
[Alan:] Well, mm mm!
[Cath:] public sats.
[Alan:] Mm. But it, if if we wanted to to change what we've done already... we we could at a certain stage have a level three, I mean I've... I've ordered... these books, you know mathematics level by level
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Alan:] so we've got what we've already got and we could produce... i it it just worries me because we're going, we're going back to eleven plus days you know!
[Judith:] Mhm, I know
[Alan:] And saying a lev, you know
[Cath:] Well they are anyway cos they've been doing the test at eleven!
[Judith:] Ya, well that's what it is isn't it? In
[Alan:] But
[Judith:] different levels
[Alan:] we we could have a level three test... that they could try.
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Alan:] And then we could say, well yes this confirms what, what we've... what we've said here.
[Judith:] Well how do they get the levels in the junior school? How did Mrs do it?
[Ian:] Erm
[Alan:] Ooh, tick sheet isn't it?
[Ian:] Sorry?
[Alan:] It's a tick sheet isn't it?
[Ian:] It's a, mhm. Yeah... but some of them have had sats obviously... the ones lower down. But I mean, they
[Judith:] But, but then
[Ian:] they're insisting on kids, they're they give them a problem which is a typical level... four or five or six or whatever, and because they get that one... problem right they say that that kid... is a level six
[Judith:] Oh!
[Ian:] You know,ju just
[Alan:] So I mean tha that's
[Ian:] looking at one
[Judith:] Aha.
[Ian:] single aspect for you know
[Cath:] But, but the other thing about giving them a standardised test at the re, when when they first arrived with us, is when you get the parent who comes and says well... how they were level five in the primary school and you've only given them level four? You can say, well I'm sorry but on our... tests
[Judith:] Mhm.
[Cath:] when they arrive in school in September... they were level... two... and they've now moved up to level three.
[Alan:] That, of course is that, that of course is the the problem of national curriculum... it's your interpretation of of the national curriculum... and there is... I mean, if Judith says a child is level three, I would accept that... but if somebody from Spring Garden said this child is level five, I'm certainly not going to accept that without [LAUGHTER] evidence that I have []!
[Cath:] Yeah, but what I'm saying is that, yeah, but what I'm saying is when the parent comes to you and says... well the primary school said they were... you can say well... well yes but by... by our standards and our assessment when they arrived here
[Alan:] The the problem is that that
[Cath:] they were that, and they and this is pre the progress that they've made
[Judith:] The thing you are saying about
[Alan:] The parents are going to naturally assume that you're a... if you're at level five... at one stage
[Judith:] the ones you buy in a shop I've heard of six
[Alan:] that you would either remain at level five, or go up to level six
[Judith:] six is the.
[Alan:] which is not gonna be the case when they transfer from school.
[Cath:] So you can six. I know, I know!
[Judith:] At regular intervals,, but when you get to higher
[Cath:] But at least it would give us some because you could say well yes, there has been progress, erm... primary school might have said
[Judith:] you only have one... level five... for all and like, did was three.
[Alan:] Mhm.
[Ian:] I would think so.
[Judith:] And if they, that's what you say that they're doing
[Alan:] Well more or less.
[Cath:] They di di yo