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what did the group talk about the progress in numeracy skills ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you . </s> [SEP]what did the group talk about the progress in numeracy skills ?

meilyr rowlands thought it was a fairly clear good news to see the improvements on the pisa results in maths , which could be attributed to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . also they agreed it was a good news story to see much more mathematics knowledge to be applied in a problem-solving situation . with regard to the effects of schools , meilyr rowlands held that the school had a larger effect on mathematics and science than reading .

what did meilyr rowlands say school could do about the poverty gap between pupils ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you . </s> [SEP]what did meilyr rowlands say school could do about the poverty gap between pupils ?

there was a two-pronged approach to solve the problem . one is the new curriculum , which was all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . poor pupils could gain more from it than their peers . the other one was to have a community-focused approach to schools through helping the pupils and their families .

why did pupils from better-off backgrounds do less well , according to meilyr rowlands ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you . </s> [SEP]why did pupils from better-off backgrounds do less well , according to meilyr rowlands ?

because they had to make sure that more able and talented children do well , who are mainly from poor backgrounds .

why did jassa scott believe it was more difficult for secondary schools to prioritize mental health and well-being ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you . </s> [SEP]why did jassa scott believe it was more difficult for secondary schools to prioritize mental health and well-being ?

first of all , secondary school pupils got to notice the differences between their everyday life at school and somehow felt not cared about . it was also more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . that is to say , it was more difficult for teachers in secondary schools to pick up signs that pupils may be struggling .

summarize the meeting[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]summarize the meeting

the meeting included an introduction to the project , the mechanics of training the data , standardizing the data for the models , the time involved , and planning efficient use of computational resources . the team members shared and discussed the existing model as well as the tests they intended to run . there was a problem standardizing labels as well as converting htk labels to the format that the team wanted . adding more dimensions to the current model was also causing concern because of the upper bound on computational resources .

summarize the discussion about language training data for cell phones[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about language training data for cell phones

the team was gathering data from different languages and preparing relevant baselines . the professor reiterated that the multilingual focus was key since the reason for this project was to replace mel cepstra with a more robust , multilingual model . they needed sufficient diversity in the languages they used .

did the professor agree with grad g on cross-lingual data ?[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]did the professor agree with grad g on cross-lingual data ?

grad g thought that the multi-lingual aspect of the model was not very important . the professor disagreed . he explained that the point of the project was to have something robust that could apply to many languages .

what did the team think about the diversity of languages they needed ?[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]what did the team think about the diversity of languages they needed ?

the team arrived at the conclusion that they only needed sufficient breadth , not every possible language . as long as most languages used over cellular phones were covered , they were fine . the similarity between different languages would help them cover more ground with fewer languages .

summarize the discussion on moving between data formats and the logistics of training models[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion on moving between data formats and the logistics of training models

the spanish data was not in the desired htk format and needed to be processed , which was turning into somewhat of a challenge . the team also realized that moving data was making their processes slower and they needed to rely on faster machines to complete their tasks . the team discussed various linguistic features and computational methods for linguistic analysis that they could incorporate .

what concerns did the team have about disk space ?[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]what concerns did the team have about disk space ?

the professor expressed that copying the information between drives clogged the network and slowed down their task . though , the team was getting four more 36 gb drives . the professor also wanted to get more information on space available on computational servers .

what did the team discuss about the cheating experiment ?[SEP] <s>grad d: channel one . phd g: test . phd e: hello . grad d: channel three . phd g: test . phd a: uh - oh . professor f: so you think we 're going now , yes ? ok , good . alright going again uh so we 're gon na go around as before , and uh do do our digits . uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . { comment } three two three { comment } four seven six five { comment } five three one six two four one { comment } six seven { comment } seven { comment } eight { comment } nine zero nine four zero zero three { comment } zero one five eight { comment } one seven three five three { comment } two six eight zero { comment } three six two four three zero seven { comment } four { comment } five zero six nine four { comment } seven four { comment } eight five seven { comment } nine six one five { comment } o seven eight o two { comment } zero nine six zero four zero zero { comment } one { comment } two { comment } uh yeah , you do n't actually n need to say the name . grad c: ok , this is barry chen and i am reading transcript professor f: that 'll probably be bleeped out . grad c: ok . professor f: so . that 's if these are anonymized , but yeah grad c: oh . { comment } ok . professor f: uh i mean not that there 's anything defamatory about uh eight five seven or or anything , but grad c: ok . professor f: uh , anyway . uh so here 's what i have for i i was just jotting down things i think th w that we should do today . uh this is what i have for an agenda so far um , we should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh the field trip next week . uh a number of us are doing a field trip to uh uh ogi and uh mostly uh first though about the logistics for it . then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . uh grad c: ok . professor f: uh , in and kind of go around see what people have been doing talk about that , a r progress report . um , essentially . um and then uh another topic i had was that uh uh uh dave here had uh said uh `` give me something to do . `` and i i have i have uh failed so far in doing that . and so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . if we find some holes in some things that that someone could use some help with , he 's he 's volunteering to help . phd a: i 've got to move a bunch of furniture . professor f: ok , always count on a serious comment from that corner . so , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about about disks and resource resource issues that that 's starting to get worked out . and then , anything else anybody has that is n't in that list ? uh grad d: i was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and i should change it ? professor f: uh i think that means the battery 's o k . phd a: let me see . professor f: d do you grad d: oh ok , so th phd a: yeah , that 's good . you 're alright ? grad d: cuz it 's full . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: alright . professor f: yeah . yeah . it looks full of electrons . ok . plenty of electrons left there . ok , so , um , uh . ok , so , uh , i wanted to start this with this mundane thing . um uh i i it was it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning . grad c: oh , yeah , that 's right . professor f: um . uh this is uh the reason i did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a of a visit . uh so um the issue is how how how would we ever accomplish that ? uh what what what part of town do you live in ? grad c: um , i live in , um , the corner of campus . the , um , southeast corner . professor f: ok . ok , so would it be easier those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at at uh , you know , six thirty . um . so . would it be easier for you if you came here and i drove you ? yeah ? yeah , yeah , ok . phd g: yeah , perhaps , yeah . grad c: yeah . sure . phd e: yeah . professor f: ok , so if if everybody can get here at six . phd e: at six . professor f: yeah , i 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time . grad c: six , ok . professor f: yeah , so . oh boy . anyway , so . phd a: will that be enough time ? professor f: yeah . yeah , so i 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . and , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . it 'll take it it it wo n't be bad traffic that time of day and and uh phd a: i guess once you get past the bridge that that would be the worst . phd b: yeah , oakland . professor f: going to oakland . phd a: yeah . grad c: oakland . phd a: once you get past the turnoff to the bay bridge . professor f: bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge phd a: yeah . professor f: wo n't even do that . phd b: yeah . professor f: i mean , just go down martin luther king . phd a: yeah . ok . mm - hmm . professor f: and then martin luther king to nine - eighty to eight - eighty , phd a: yeah . professor f: and it 's it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there . phd a: oh , i professor f: so that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane it 'll just yeah . so great , ok so that 'll it 's i mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but well particularly for for uh for barry and me , we 're not we 're not staying overnight so we do n't need to bring anything particularly except for uh a pad of paper and so , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit grad c: ok . professor f: but uh you know , do n't do n't bring a footlocker and we 'll be ok so . grad c: s so just professor f: w you 're staying overnight . i figured you would n't need a great big suitcase , yeah . phd g: oh yeah . yeah . professor f: that 's sort of one night . so . anyway . ok . grad c: so , s six am , in front . professor f: six am in front . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , i 'll be here . uh i 'll i 'll i 'll i 'll give you my phone number , if i 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then grad c: wake you up . professor f: nah , i 'll be fine . i just , uh it for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than i usually do . not not not a lot , grad c: ok . wednesday . professor f: so ok , that was the real real important stuff . um , i i i figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh until we talk about wh what 's been going on . so , uh , what 's been going on ? why do n't we start start over here . phd g: um . well , preparation of the french test data actually . professor f: ok . phd g: so , it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit french database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and i 've added noise to one part , with the actually the aurora - two noises . and , @ @ so this is a training part . and then the remaining part , i use for testing and with other kind of noises . so we can so this is almost ready . i 'm preparing the the htk baseline for this task . and , yeah . professor f: ok uh , so the htk base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or ? yeah . ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: and again , i guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh then given this what 's the plan again ? phd g: the plan with these data ? professor f: with so so does i just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what 's y you just described what you 've been doing . so if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing . phd g: yeah . professor f: oh , this is yeah , yeah . phd g: uh , yeah . grad c: tell him about the cube . phd g: well . the cube ? i should tell him about the cube ? grad c: yeah . professor f: oh ! cube . yeah . phd g: yeah . phd e: fill in the cube . phd g: uh we actually we want to , mmm , uh , uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the training data dimension , and the test data dimension . um . well , what we want to do is first we have number for each uh task . so we have the um , ti - digit task , the italian task , the french task and the finnish task . professor f: yeah ? phd g: so we have numbers with uh systems i mean i mean neural networks trained on the task data . and then to have systems with neural networks trained on , uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically phonetically balanced , and . um . professor f: so - so we had talked i guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language id corpus ? phd g: yeah . so . professor f: is that a possibility for that ? phd g: ye - uh yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a callhome and a callfriend also , the callfriend is for language ind identification . well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . so , um . this could be a a problem for why ? because uh , uh , the the speechdat databases are not telephone speech . they are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not uh with telephone bandwidth . professor f: yeah . that 's really funny is n't it ? i mean cuz th this whole thing is for developing new standards for the telephone . grad c: telephone . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , but the the idea is to compute the feature before the before sending them to the well , you do n't do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the the device , professor f: mm - hmm . yeah , i know , but the reason phd g: or well . professor f: oh i see , so your point is that it 's it 's it 's uh the features are computed locally , and so they are n't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions . phd g: so you yeah . yeah . phd a: did you happen to find out anything about the ogi multilingual database ? professor f: yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what i meant . phd g: yeah , it 's professor f: i said @ @ , there 's there 's there 's an ogi language id , not the not the , uh the callfriend is a is a , uh , ldc w thing , right ? phd g: yea - yeah , there are also two other databases . one they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . but it 's also telephone speech . phd a: oh , they are ? ok . phd g: uh . well , nnn . professor f: but i 'm not sure phd g: so professor f: i mean , we ' r e e the bandwidth should n't be such an issue right ? because e e this is downsampled and and filtered , right ? so it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . and there are so many other differences between these different databases . i mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's i mean there 's there 's many different acoustic differences . so i 'm not sure if . i mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database , i 'm not sure if it 's completely rules it out phd g: yeah . professor f: if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gon na be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , i i i i guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages uh , in there . phd g: yeah , but mm - hmm . um . yeah . well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we we already have uh english , spanish and french uh , with microphone speech . professor f: mm - hmm . yeah . phd g: so . professor f: so that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? phd g: well . yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases . professor f: and for the difference in phonetic context that you ? provide that . phd g: well , this uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases . phd e: yeah . phd g: so w f for for uh italian , which is close to spanish , french and , i i uh , ti - digits we have both uh , digits training data and also more general training data . so . mmm . professor f: well , we also have this broadcast news that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is is microphone data for for english . phd g: yeah . yeah , perhaps yeah , there is also timit . professor f: yeah . phd g: we could use timit . professor f: right . yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . ok , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . yes . phd g: yeah . phd e: to fill in the cube . professor f: to fill i fill it in , yeah . ok . phd g: yeah , and perhaps , um we were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . well , w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . i mean , uh , training training a net on a language and testing a for another language . professor f: uh - huh . but that 's phd g: mmm . perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . but , uh , with a general database general databases . u so that th well , the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net , professor f: uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` . phd g: but not trained on a professor f: so , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features that we 're talking about you ca n't do that . phd g: mmm . professor f: because because the what they 're asking for is is a feature set . right ? and so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by by doing this training . but if we say , `` no , you have to have a different feature set for each language , `` i think this is ver gon na be very bad . phd g: yeah . grad c: oh . phd g: you think so . grad c: that 's phd e: oh . professor f: so oh yeah . phd g: mmm . professor f: yeah . i mean , in principle , i mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ { comment } well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra . phd g: mmm . professor f: so , we say `` ok , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . it 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . `` ok ? and so we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language . phd g: hmm . professor f: cuz you do n't know who 's gon na call , and you know , i mean so it 's it 's it 's , uh , uh how do you know what language it is ? somebody picks up the phone . so thi this is their image . someone picks up the phone , right ? phd g: well , i { comment } chh professor f: and and he he picks up the ph phd g: yeah , but the the application is there is a target language for the application . professor f: yeah . y y y phd g: so , if a professor f: well . but , no but , y you you pick up the phone , phd g: well . professor f: you talk on the phone , phd g: yeah ? professor f: and it sends features out . ok , so the phone does n't know what a what what your language is . phd g: yeah , if yeah . if it 's th in the phone , but professor f: but that 's the image that they have . phd g: well , it that that could be th at the server 's side , professor f: it could be , phd g: and , well . mmm , yeah . professor f: but that 's the image they have , right ? so that 's that 's i mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . but the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the uh , on the phone . so that 's that 's what we 're involved in . we might might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's that 's that 's what they 're asking for . so so i think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . now , it 's the ogi , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . and that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . and they may very well be right , but i i was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . if that 's true , we do n't need to worry so much . maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that that that the rest does n't matter . um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh which i i guess they 're starting to look at up there , { comment } training to something more like articulatory features . uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh , but yeah , so i do n't th i know unfortunately i do n't i see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , i think , but i do n't think we can ignore it . phd g: so we we really have to do test with a real cross - language . i mean , tr for instance training on english and testing on italian , or or we can train or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and which can include the test the test @ @ the target language , grad c: test on an unseen . phd g: or professor f: yeah , so , um , there 's there 's , uh this is complex . so , ultimately , uh , as i was saying , i think it does n't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . now , can you include , uh , the the target language ? phd g: yeah . professor f: um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point , `` ok , so you put in the german and the finnish . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has portuguese ? `` you know ? um , and uh , however , you are n't it is n't actually a constraint in this evaluation . so i would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we we note it and say , `` look , we did do this `` . phd g: mmm ? phd a: and so , ideally , what you 'd wan na do is you 'd wan na run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages . professor f: uh . yeah . phd g: yeah , perhaps . yeah . phd a: and that way you can say , `` well , `` you know , `` we 're gon na build it for what we think are the most common ones `` , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . phd a: but if that somebody uses it with a different language , you know , `` here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . `` professor f: yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's it 's not like there are i mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there are n't . phd a: right . professor f: there 's you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? so , uh , an and they are n't you know , with the exception of finnish , which i guess it 's pretty different from most most things . uh , it 's it 's , uh most of them are like at least some of the others . and so , our guess that spanish is like italian , and and so on . i guess finnish is a is is a little bit like hungarian , supposedly , right ? phd a: i do n't know anything about finnish . professor f: or is i think well , i kn oh , well i know that h uh , h i mean , i 'm not a linguist , but i guess hungarian and finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former soviet union are in this sort of same family . phd a: hmm . professor f: but they 're just these , you know , uh countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have i guess , people rode in on horses and brought their phd a: hmm . professor f: ok . phd g: the yeah . grad c: oh , my turn . professor f: your turn . grad c: oh , ok . um , let 's see , i i spent the last week , uh , looking over stephane 's shoulder . and and understanding some of the data . i re - installed , um , um , htk , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point o , which is the same version that , uh , ogi is using . professor f: oh , good . grad c: yeah . so , without without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . and , um , so we 've been talking about this this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the borge cube thing . it 's really gargantuan . um , but i i 'm am i professor f: so are are you going to be assimilated ? phd a: resistance is futile . grad c: exactly . um , yeah , so i i 've been looking at , uh , uh , timit stuff . um , the the stuff that we 've been working on with timit , trying to get a , um a labels file so we can , uh , train up a train up a net on timit and test , um , the difference between this net trained on timit and a net trained on digits alone . um , and seeing if if it hurts or helps . professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: anyway . professor f: and again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ? grad c: yeah , yeah . um . mm - hmm . professor f: and and the inputs are plp and delta and that sort of thing , grad c: well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube , professor f: or ? grad c: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , plp , um , m f c cs , um , j - jrasta , jrasta - lda phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there , grad c: yeah , professor f: right ? grad c: right . professor f: which is plp , or something ? grad c: um , i i have n't i have n't decided on on the initial thing . professor f: yeah . grad c: probably probably something like plp . yeah . phd g: hmm . professor f: yeah . um , so so you take plp and you you , uh , do it uh , you you , uh , use htk with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . and the training could either be from digits itself or from timit . grad c: right . professor f: and that 's the and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which which which might be foreign language . grad c: right . right . professor f: i see . i i i get in the picture about the cube . grad c: yeah . maybe professor f: ok . grad c: ok . uh - huh . professor f: ok . um , i mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , i guess i 'm i 'm not any worse off . but but at some point somebody should just show me the cube . it sounds s i i get i think i get the general idea of it , grad c: yeah , yeah , professor f: yeah . phd a: so , when you said that you were getting the labels for timit , { comment } um , are y what do you mean by that ? grad c: b may mm - hmm . oh , i 'm just i 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard timit transcriptions into into a nice long huge p - file to do training . phd a: mmm . were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ? grad c: um , the the digits phd a: or were they those labels automatically derived ? grad c: oh yeah , those were those were automatically derived by by dan using , um , embedded embedded training and alignment . phd a: mmm . professor f: ah , but which dan ? grad c: uh , ellis . right ? professor f: ok . ok . grad c: yeah . so . phd a: i was just wondering because that test you 're t grad c: uh - huh . phd a: i i think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific speech . grad c: that 's right . professor f: well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd the different languages have different words for the different digits , phd a: mm - hmm . and i was professor f: so it 's phd a: yeah , so i was just wondering if the fact that timit you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from timit might be confuse the results that you get . professor f: i i think it would , but but on the other hand it might be better . phd a: right , but if it 's better , it may be better because it was hand - labeled . professor f: oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it . phd a: yeah . ok . professor f: i mean , you know , i i i guess i 'm sounding cavalier , but i mean , i think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and and they 're han hand uh hand - marked . uh , i guess , actually , timit was not entirely hand - marked . it was automatically first , and then hand hand - corrected . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: but but , um , uh , it it , um , it might be a better source . so , i it 's you 're right . it would be another interesting scientific question to ask , `` is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . and that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , i think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system , phd a: yeah . right . professor f: then it 's probably phd a: what about the differences in the phone sets ? grad c: uh , between languages ? phd a: no , between timit and the the digits . grad c: oh , um , right . well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in timit to to fifty - six , the icsi fifty - six . phd e: sixty - one . phd a: oh , ok . i see . grad c: and then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? is that right ? phd a: out of that fifty - six ? phd g: yep . grad c: out of that fifty - six . phd a: oh , ok . grad c: yeah . so , it 's it 's definitely broader , yeah . phd g: but , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages phd e: yeah . phd g: because you well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and so we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages , phd a: mm - hmm . phd g: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that . professor f: mm - hmm . you mean a superset , sort of . phd g: uh , yeah , professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: superset , phd e: yeah . i th i looks the sampa sampa phone . phd g: yeah . phd e: sampa phone ? for english uh american english , and the the the language who have more phone are the english . phd g: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd e: of the these language . but n for example , in spain , the spanish have several phone that d does n't appear in the e english and we thought to complete . but for that , it needs we must r h do a lot of work because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have . professor f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: other than the language , is there a reason not to use the timit phone set ? cuz it 's larger ? as opposed to the icsi phone set ? grad c: oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ? phd b: yeah . grad c: i do n't know . i have professor f: um , i forget if that happened starting with you , or was it o or if it was eric , afterwards who did that . but i think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there . phd a: yeah , and i think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're both silence . phd b: oh . phd a: i th i think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six . phd b: ok . professor f: yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . you know , you 're really asking this net to learn . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: it 's it 's kind of hard . phd a: there 's not much difference , really . and the ones that are gone , i think are i think there was they also in timit had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence , phd b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so . phd b: well , we have that now , too , right ? phd a: i do n't know . phd b: yeah . phd a: so . professor f: i it 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? uh , and then they get the variety by by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . uh . so we actually have an unusually large number in in what we tend to use here . um . so , a a actually maybe now you 've got me sort of intrigued . what there 's can you describe what what 's on the cube ? grad c: yeah , w i th i think that 's a good idea professor f: i mean grad c: to to talk about the whole cube professor f: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad c: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: um , ok . uh , do you wan na do it ? professor f: ok , so even even though the meeting recorder does n't does n't , uh and since you 're not running a video camera we wo n't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway . grad c: ok . professor f: uh , point out one of the limitations of this medium , grad c: ok . professor f: but you 've got the wireless on , grad c: yeah , i have the wireless . professor f: right ? yeah , so you can walk around . grad c: ok . can y can you walk around too ? no . ok , well , um , professor f: uh , he ca n't , actually , but grad c: s basically , the the cube will have three dimensions . professor f: he 's tethered . grad c: the first dimension is the the features that we 're going to use . and the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . and that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . um and the last dimension happens to be professor f: yeah and again yeah . so the the training for htk is always that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? that there 's some training data and some test data . so that 's different than this . grad c: right , right . this is this is for for ann only . and , yeah , the training for the htk models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on . professor f: right . grad c: and then , there 's the testing corpus . so , then i think it 's probably instructive to go and and and show you the features that we were talking about . um , so , let 's see . help me out with phd g: plp . grad c: with what ? phd g: plp . grad c: plp ? ok . phd g: msg . grad c: msg . phd g: uh , jrasta . grad c: jrasta . phd g: and jrasta - lda . grad c: jrasta - lda . phd g: um , multi - band . grad c: multi - band . phd g: so there would be multi - band before , um before our network , i mean . grad c: yeah , just the multi - band features , right ? phd g: and grad c: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh - huh . ah . ah . phd g: so , something like , uh , s tct within bands and well . and then multi - band after networks . meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . uh , yeah . and using the the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . uh , yeah . phd a: what about mel cepstrum ? or is that grad c: oh , um phd a: you do n't include that because it 's part of the base or something ? phd e: yeah databases . professor f: well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: so . phd g: but , uh , well , not for the the ann . i mean professor f: ok . phd g: so , yeah , we could we could add mfcc also . grad c: we could add professor f: probably should . i mean at least at least conceptually , you know , it does n't meant you actually have to do it , phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor f: but conceptually it makes sense as a as a base line . phd a: it 'd be an interesting test just to have just to do mfcc with the neural net phd e: without the phd a: and everything else the same . phd e: yeah . phd a: compare that with just m - mfcc without the the net . phd g: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: i think i think dan did some of that . phd a: oh . grad c: um , in his previous aurora experiments . and with the net it 's it 's wonderful . without the net it 's just baseline . professor f: um , i think ogi folks have been doing that , too . d because i think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually . grad c: yeah . yeah . professor f: um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . ok ? grad c: ok . um , for the training corpus corpus , um , we have , um , the the d digits from the various languages . um , english spanish um , french what else do we have ? phd g: and the finnish . grad c: finnish . phd a: where did th where did that come from ? phd e: and italian . phd a: digits ? phd e: uh , no , italian no . italian no . phd a: oh . grad c: oh . italian . phd e: i italian yes . italian ? professor f: italian . phd a: is that was that distributed with aurora , or ? grad c: one l or two l 's ? phd a: where did that ? professor f: the newer one . phd g: so english , uh , finnish and italian are aurora . professor f: yeah . phd g: and spanish and french is something that we can use in addition to aurora . uh , well . professor f: yeah , so carmen brought the spanish , and stephane brought the french . grad c: ok . and , um , oh yeah , and professor f: is it french french or belgian french ? there 's a phd g: it 's , uh , french french . grad c: french french . phd e: like mexican spain and spain . professor f: yeah . phd b: or swiss . phd e: i think that is more important , phd b: swiss - german . phd e: mexican spain . because more people professor f: yeah . yeah , probably so . phd e: yeah . professor f: yeah . yeah , herve always insists that belgian is i is absolutely pure french , has nothing to do with but he says those those those parisians talk funny . phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . they have an accent . professor f: yeah they they do , yeah . yeah . but then he likes belgian fries too , so . ok . grad c: and then we have , uh , um , broader broader corpus , um , like timit . timit so far , phd e: and spanish too . grad c: right ? spanish oh , spanish stories ? phd e: albayzin is the name . phd a: what about ti - digits ? grad c: um , ti - digits uh all these aurora f d data p data is from is derived from ti - digits . phd a: uh - huh . oh . oh ok . grad c: um , basically , they they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different snr levels . phd a: ah . i see . grad c: yeah . professor f: y and i think stephane was saying there 's there 's some broader s material in the french also ? phd g: yeah , we cou we could use grad c: ok . phd g: yeah . the french data . phd e: spanish stories ? grad c: no . phd e: no . grad c: sp - not spanish stories ? phd e: no . no . albayz professor f: spanish grad c: spanish something . phd e: yeah . grad c: ok . phd b: did the aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t grad c: they they corrupted it , um , themselves , phd b: ok . grad c: but they also included the the noise files for us , right ? or phd g: yeah . grad c: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things . professor f: i 'm just curious , carmen i mean , i could n't tell if you were joking or i is it is it mexican spanish , phd e: no no no no . professor f: or is it phd e: no no no no . professor f: oh , no , no . it 's it 's spanish from spain , spanish . phd e: spanish from spain . professor f: yeah , ok . grad c: from spain . professor f: alright . spanish from spain . yeah , we 're really covered there now . ok . grad c: ok . professor f: and the french from france . phd g: yeah , the no , the french is f yeah , from , uh , paris , grad c: oh , from paris , ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: and timit 's from lots of different places . phd g: ok . professor f: from ti . from i it 's from texas . so may maybe it 's phd b: from the deep south . professor f: so - s so it 's not really from the us either . grad c: yeah . professor f: is that ? ok . grad c: yeah . ok . and , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . so , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , aurora is in incorporating in their , um in their training corpus . um , i do n't think we we 're given the , uh the unseen noise conditions , though , right ? professor f: i think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gon na be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not . grad c: like mm - hmm . ok . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not . grad c: right . professor f: i think that 's right . grad c: so , i guess we ca n't train on on the the unseen noise conditions . professor f: well , not if it 's not seen , grad c: right . if not if it 's unseen . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . i mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . but , but , uh , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . so . ok , so that 's your training corpus , phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: and then your testing corpus ? grad c: um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as aurora testing . and , that includes , um , the english spa - um , italian . finnish . phd e: finnish . grad c: uh , we ' r we 're gon na get german , right ? ge - { comment } at the final test will have german . professor f: well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be german and danish , phd g: uh , yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: right . phd g: the s yeah , the spanish , perhaps , grad c: spanish . oh yeah , we can we can test on s spanish . phd g: we will have . yeah . but the the aurora spanish , i mean . grad c: oh yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: oh , there 's a there 's spanish testing in the aurora ? phd g: uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e phd e: yeah , it 's preparing . phd g: pre they are preparing it , phd e: they are preparing . phd g: and , well , according to hynek it will be we will have this at the end of november , or um . professor f: ok , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh each column . phd g: yeah professor f: so that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , different systems that are going to be developed . there 's three of you . grad c: yeah . one hundred each , about . professor f: uh , so that 's hundred and hundred and fourteen each . grad d: what a what about noise conditions ? professor f: what ? grad d: w do n't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ? professor f: are you just trying to be difficult ? grad d: no , i just do n't understand . grad c: well , th uh , when when i put these testings on there , i 'm assumi professor f: i 'm just kidding . yeah . grad c: there - there 's three three tests . um , type - a , type - b , and type - c . and they 're all they 're all gon na be test tested , um , with one training of the htk system . um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . test - a is like a matched noise . test - b is a is a slightly mismatched . and test - c is a , um , mismatched channel . grad d: and do we do all our training on clean data ? grad c: um , no , no , phd e: also , we can clean that . grad c: we 're we 're gon na be , um , training on the noise files that we do have . phd g: no . professor f: so , um yeah , so i guess the question is how long does it take to do a a training ? i mean , it 's not totally crazy t i mean , these are a lot of these are built - in things and we know we have programs that compute plp , we have msg , we have jra you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , wo n't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . so , we actually can do quite a few experiments . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but how how long does it take , do we think , for one of these { comment } trainings ? grad c: that 's a good question . phd a: what about combinations of things ? professor f: oh yeah , that 's right . i mean , cuz , so , for instance , i think the major advantage of msg grad c: oh ! professor f: yeah , grad c: och ! professor f: good point . a major advantage of msg , i see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with plp . phd e: yeah . professor f: um . grad c: now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ? phd a: well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension . phd b: or you just add it to the features . phd e: no . grad c: just phd e: here . grad c: oh , yeah . ok . professor f: yeah , so , i mean , you do n't wan na , uh let 's see , seven choose two would be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . um . phd b: it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: probably phd b: right ? it 's not a complete set of combinations , though , professor f: what ? phd b: right ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , i hope not . yeah , there 's grad c: that would be professor f: uh , yeah , so plp and msg i think we definitely wan na try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together . phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: um . yeah . phd a: when you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ? professor f: well , so i mean , so i it does n't increase the number of trainings . phd a: no , no , i 'm i 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or ? professor f: uh , i do n't think so . phd b: there 's a computation limit , though , is n't there ? professor f: yeah , i mean , it 's just more compu excuse me ? phd b: is n't there like a limit on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for aurora task ? professor f: oh yeah , we have n't talked about any of that at all , have we ? grad c: no . professor f: yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . what it is is that there 's there 's , uh it 's just penalty , you know ? that that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone . phd b: ok . professor f: um . and , u uh , i think the computation is n't so much of a problem . i think it 's more the memory . uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gon na have lots of memory . so it 's just that , uh , these people see the the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: um . but , yeah , i was just realizing that , actually , it does n't explode out , um it 's not really two to the seventh . but it 's but but i i it does n't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . right ? so , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the kl transformation and so forth grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and and , uh so , what it it blows out is the number of uh testings . and , you know and the number of times you do that last part . but that last part , i think , is so has got ta be pretty quick , so . uh . right ? i mean , it 's just running the data through grad c: oh . phd a: but wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ? professor f: well , you got ta do the kl transformation , phd g: eight y professor f: but phd a: is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ? phd e: necessary to put in . professor f: good question . phd g: uh , probably one net . well . uh . professor f: one would think one net , phd g: so . professor f: but we 've i do n't think we 've tested that . right ? phd g: so , in the broader training corpus we can we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of of two two languages . phd e: database three . phd a: in one net . mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . professor f: yeah , so , i guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a how long a a training takes , if we can train up all these these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: because the putting them in combination , i think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . right ? phd g: yeah . professor f: so y you do have to compute the kl transformation . uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much . phd g: it 's not too much , professor f: yeah . phd g: no . professor f: so it 's phd g: but yeah . but there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the htk models phd e: the the model the htk model . phd g: and , well , professor f: uh , right . phd g: it 's professor f: right . so if you do have lots of combinations , it 's phd g: yeah . but it 's it 's it 's not so long . it @ @ yeah . professor f: how long does it take for an , uh , htk training ? phd g: it 's around six hours , i think . phd e: it depends on the phd g: for training and testing , yeah . phd e: more than six hours . phd g: more . phd e: for the italian , yes . maybe one day . phd g: one day ? phd e: yeah . professor f: for htk ? phd e: well . professor f: really ? running on what ? phd e: uh , m mfcc . professor f: no , i 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ? phd e: uh , ravioli . professor f: uh , i do n't know what ravioli is . is it is it an ultra - five , or is it a ? phd e: mmm um . who is that ? phd a: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd e: i do n't know . phd b: i do n't know what a ravioli is . phd e: i do n't know . grad c: i do n't know . phd b: we can check really quickly , i guess . phd g: yeah , i i think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the ti - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , i think , professor f: it 's a few hours . phd b: hmm . professor f: yeah . right , phd g: something like that . and it p well . professor f: so , i mean , clearly , there there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines . phd g: it 's six hours . professor f: right ? so so w we i mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in in a great great deal of use . so , i mean , i think it 's it 's key that that the that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot uh , are we still using p - make ? is that ? grad c: oh , i do n't know how w how we would p - make this , though . um . professor f: well , you have a i mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the uh , a all these combinations , grad c: yeah . professor f: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: um . it 's it 's let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of htk . how long is it for training of of , uh , the neural net ? grad c: the neural net ? um . phd g: i would say two days . phd a: depends on the corpuses , right ? phd e: it depends . phd b: it s also depends on the net . phd g: yeah . grad c: yeah . phd e: depends on the corpus . phd b: how big is the net ? phd e: for albayzin i trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also . professor f: uh , but on what machine ? grad c: on a spert board . phd e: uh . i i think the neural net spert . grad c: y you did a you did it on a spert board . phd e: yes . professor f: ok , again , we do have a bunch of spert boards . grad c: yeah . professor f: and i think there there there 's i think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now . phd a: is it faster to do it on the spert , or ? professor f: uh , do n't know . grad c: it 's it 's still a little faster on the professor f: used to be . phd a: is it ? grad c: yeah , yeah . ad - adam adam did some testing . or either adam or or dan did some testing and they found that the spert board 's still still faster . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and the benefits is that , you know , you run out of spert and then you can do other things on your your computer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . grad c: and you do n't professor f: yeah . so you could be we have quite a few spert boards . you could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on spert different spert boards and and have ten other jobs running on different computers . so , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these . grad c: yeah . professor f: so this is yeah , i mean , i kind of like this because what it no grad c: ok . professor f: uh , no , what i like about it is we we we do have a problem that we have very limited time . you know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . and uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is is new , where we 're saying , `` well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort `` that 's phd e: yeah . professor f: i think it 's a great thing to go to . but if it 's new , then we have this development and and and learning process t to to go through on top of just the the all the all the work . so , i i i do n't see how we 'd do it . so what i like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do . phd e: yeah . professor f: and and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . and , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a am i am i interpreting this correctly ? is this sort of what what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ? phd g: mmm . professor f: ok . phd g: yeah . professor f: so so then i think it 's just the the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know you know , talk to talk to , uh , chuck , talk to , uh , adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a as a as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and uh , in in kind o some kind of structured way . uh . um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , ogi next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . and , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently , grad c: mmm . mm - hmm . professor f: that , you know , we 're not we wo n't be contributing that much . um . and , uh then , uh , like , we 're there . phd b: how big are the nets you 're using ? grad c: um , for the for nets trained on digits , { comment } um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . and , um , for the broader class nets we 're we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes . phd b: uh - huh . grad c: so . professor f: broader class ? grad c: um , the broader broader training corpus nets like timit . um , w we 're gon na professor f: oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean y you mean more classes . grad c: right . right . yeah . more classes . right , right . more classes . professor f: yeah . grad c: that 's what i mean . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . and . yeah . professor f: carmen , did you do you have something else to add ? we you have n't talked too much , and phd e: d i begin to work with the italian database to nnn , to with the f front - end and with the htk program and the @ @ . and i trained eh , with the spanish two neural network with plp and with lograsta plp . i do n't know exactly what is better if if lograsta or jrasta . professor f: well , um , jrasta has the potential to do better , but it does n't always . it 's i i jrasta is more complicated . it 's it 's , uh instead of doing rasta with a log , you 're doing rasta with a log - like function that varies depending on a j parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . so , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is . phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: and so in jrasta you attempt to do that . it 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . and , uh , phd e: hm - hmm . professor f: so it 's it 's it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if if if you 're careful with it , it can do better . phd e: it 's a bit i 'll do better . professor f: so , it 's so . phd e: um , and i think to to to recognize the italian digits with the neural netw spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the spanish digits , the database of spanish digits . and i working that . professor f: yeah . phd e: but prepa to prepare the the database are difficult . was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that i have , the albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . and that is another work that we must to do , to to change . professor f: i i did n't understand . phd e: uh , for example albayzin database was labeled automatically with htk . it 's not hand it 's not labels by hand . professor f: oh , `` l labeled `` . phd e: labels . professor f: i 'm sorry , phd e: i 'm sorry , professor f: i have a p i had a problem with the pronunciation . phd e: i 'm sorry . the labels . i 'm sorry . the labels . professor f: yeah , ok . phd e: oh , also that professor f: so , ok , so let 's start over . phd e: yes . professor f: so , ti timi timit 's hand - labeled , and and you 're saying about the spanish ? phd e: the spanish labels ? that was in different format , that the format for the em the program to train the neural network . professor f: oh , i see . phd e: i necessary to convert . and someti well phd a: so you 're just having a problem converting the labels . phd e: it 's it 's yeah . yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , feacalc , but no , l labecut , l labecut , but do n't does n't , eh , include the htk format to convert . professor f: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . phd e: and , i do n't know what . i ask e even i ask to dan ellis what i can do that , and h they he say me that h he does does n't any any s any form to to do that . and at the end , i think that with labecut i can transfer to ascii format , and htk is an ascii format . and i m do another , uh , one program to put ascii format of htk to ase ay ac ascii format to exceed professor f: mm - hmm . phd e: and they used labcut to to pass . professor f: ok , yeah . phd e: actually that was complicated , professor f: so you phd e: but well , i know how we can did that do that . professor f: sure . so it 's just usual kind of uh sometimes say housekeeping , right ? to get these get these things sorted out . phd e: yeah . professor f: so it seems like there 's there 's some peculiarities of the , uh of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . and then , um , if if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . and , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at ogi , so i think that i if what 's what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank phd e: mm - hmm . professor f: and and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best . grad c: yeah . um , i i was thinking two things . uh , the first thing was , um we we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um not not in stages , { comment } but more along the the time axis . just kind of like one stream at a time , professor f: mm - hmm . grad c: je - je - je - je - je { comment } check out the results and and go that way . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah , sure . no , i 'm just saying , i 'm just thinking of it like loops , grad c: uh - huh . professor f: right ? and so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that , grad c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: right ? and you 're going through them all . that that 's what i meant . grad c: right , right . professor f: and , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , concurrently on different machines , different sperts , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , `` ok , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , `` you 'll probably find you ca n't do it all . grad c: mm - hmm . ok . professor f: ok , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: which of the combinations across you know , what are the most likely ones , and and , uh , i still think we could do a lot of them . i mean , it would n't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . but , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . uh , but a hundred is a lot . and and , uh , um grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . grad c: yeah , and the the second thing was about scratch space . and i think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for for people to work on . and i know that , uh , stephane 's working from an nt machine , so his his home directory exists somewhere else . professor f: his his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . yeah , i mean , my point i i want to yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . my th i want to clarify my point about that that that chuck repeated in his note . um . we 're over the next year or two , we 're gon na be upgrading the networks in this place , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . and we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster . so , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: so , you you do n't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do do n't want to have the the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being where the computation 's being done if you can help it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh . now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what i just said . but the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . and then that way you you wo n't have the the network you wo n't be clogging the network for yourself and others . grad c: mmm . professor f: that 's the idea . so , uh , it 's gon na take us it may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh it 's gon na take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gon na be getting . we 're actually gon na get , uh , i think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another another disk rack . we ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between , uh primarily between this project and the meetings meetings project . um . but , uh , we 've put another i guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . but , uh , are you saying so i do n't know where you 're stephane , where you 're doing your computations . if i so , you 're on an nt machine , so you 're using some external machine phd g: yeah , it , uh well , to it 's nutmeg and mustard , i think , professor f: do you know these yet ? phd g: i do n't know what kind . phd a: nuh - uh . professor f: yeah , ok . uh , are these are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? i 'm i 've been kind of out of it . phd g: yeah , i think , yeah . i think so . professor f: unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet . phd g: mmm . professor f: so . phd g: mmm . professor f: uh , have n't been have n't been doing much computing personally , so . um . yeah , so those are computational servers . so i guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers . phd a: right . yeah , i 'm not sure what 's available on is it you said nutmeg and what was the other one ? phd g: mustard . phd a: mustard . ok . phd b: huh . professor f: yeah , well , you 're the you 're the disk czar now . phd a: right , right . professor f: so phd a: well , i 'll check on that . professor f: yeah . yeah , so basically , uh , chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and i 'll be the one who says , `` ok , spend the money . `` so . which , i mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it does n't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , i think it 's not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive . right now it 's phd a: what you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a df minus k , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available . phd g: yeah . phd a: uh , and if there is then , uh professor f: but was n't it , uh i think dave was saying that he preferred that people did n't put stuff in slash - scratch . it 's more putting in d s xa or xb or , phd a: well , there 's different there , um , there 's professor f: right ? phd a: right . so there 's the slash - x - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . and both of those two kinds are not backed up . and if it 's called `` slash - scratch `` , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . um . and so that 's the kind of thing where , like if um , ok , if you do n't have an nt , but you have a a a unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , { comment } it 'll be called `` slash - x - something `` uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be `` slash - d - something `` if it is backed up . and if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called `` slash - scratch `` . but the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . it 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . so , you do n't wan na put anything in slash - scratch that you wan na keep around for a long period of time . but if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it does n't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . so tha that 's why i was saying you could check slash - scratch on those on on , um , mustard and and nutmeg to see if if there 's space that you could use there . professor f: i see . phd a: you could also use slash - x - whatever disks on mustard and nutmeg . phd g: yeah , yeah . phd a: um . yeah , and we do have i mean , yeah , so so you yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gon na run over them lots of times so you do n't have to go to the network . professor f: right , so es so especially if you 're right , if you 're if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where chuck is putting it all on the on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y i mean it is backed up on the other disk . so , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so , one of the things that i need to i 've started looking at uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? professor f: sure . phd a: i 've started looking at , um , disk space . dan david , um , put a new , um , drive onto abbott , that 's an x disk , which means it 's not backed up . so , um , i 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that that we 've got on a cd - rom or something , onto that new disk to free up space on other disks . and , um , so far , um , i 've copied a couple of carmen 's , um , databases over there . we have n't deleted them off of the slash - dc disk that they 're on right now in abbott , um , uh , but we i would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . there 's there 's a lot more space there , phd g: yeah , ok . phd a: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . so , anything that that you do n't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gon na need , you probably wan na have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something { comment } goes wrong . so . um so far i 've i 've copied a couple of things , but i have n't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . um , and i have n't looked at the any of the aurora stuff , except for the spanish . so i i guess i 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk . phd g: yeah , ok . professor f: um , yeah , i i just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? phd g: um . well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . um . professor f: this being ? phd g: so , but uh . so that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as ogi is using , so , with parameters that they use there , professor f: yeah , i think that 's a good idea . phd g: u u professor f: i mean it 's i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . so probably if we sort of take their phd g: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor f: probably the on - line line normalization because then it { comment } it 's if we do anything else , we 're gon na end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization . phd g: mm - hmm . professor f: so . um . so that it 's plausible for the final thing . good . um . so , i guess , yeah , th the other topic i maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the for next week 's meeting . uh . i i i it seems to me that we wan na do is flush out what you put on the board here . uh . you know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit . grad c: ok . like a s like a slide ? professor f: uh , so w we can say what we 're doing , grad c: ok . professor f: yeah . and , um , also , if you have sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we 're gon na do . and , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . um . anything else that i a a actually started out this this field trip started off with with , uh , stephane talking to hynek , so you may have you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about accomplishing ? i mean , i 'm just saying this because maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation . phd g: oh , i think basically , this is this is , uh , yeah . professor f: ok . ok . uh . alright . and uh and the other the the last topic i had here was , um , uh d dave 's fine offer to to , uh , do something on this . i mean he 's doing he 's working on other things , but to to do something on this project . so the question is , `` where where could we , uh , uh , most use dave 's help ? `` phd g: um , yeah , i was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well i mean it 's , uh , running programs professor f: yeah . phd g: and , um , trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the , um , speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and which could be important in i for noise noise phd a: i think that would be a i think that 's a big big deal . because the you know , the thing that sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? the that that really throws things off . you know , having the noise all of a sudden , your your , um , speech detector , i mean the the , um what was it ? what was happening with his thing ? professor f: phd a: he was running through these models very quickly . he was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions . professor f: the only problem i mean , maybe that 's the right thing the only problem i have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . um , i i think that let 's fall back to that . but i think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something that , uh , an an additional uh , that 's a good thing you remove the mike . go ahead , good . uh , uh . what an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . right ? cuz dave 's gon na be around for a long time , phd e: yeah . professor f: right ? he 's he 's gon na be here for years . and so , um , phd g: yeah . professor f: over years , if he 's if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . but if there if in fact there 's something else that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're we 're sort of uh strapped for time we have we we 've , you know , only , uh , another another month or two to you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to to get a lot done . if we can think of something some piece of this that 's going to be the very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why it 's possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not uh , yeah , so that that 's the question . and we do n't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some some piece that 's that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that . phd a: what about training up a , um , a multilingual net ? professor f: uh . phd e: yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the the label the labels between timit and spanish or something like that . phd g: yeah . yeah , so defining the superset , phd e: yes . phd g: and , uh , joining the data and mmm . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: uh . yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event . phd e: yeah . professor f: so what we were just saying is that that , um i was arguing for , if possible , coming up with something that that really was development and was n't research because we we 're we have a time crunch . and so , uh , if there 's something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . see the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is i really think that that it 's to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . you can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it . phd e: hmm . professor f: you can throw something in . you can do pretty well . but i remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as i recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four really really hard . phd a: mm - hmm . another year . professor f: yeah , yeah . so , um and th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not we do n't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . so if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . i mean , one i think one of the a lot of people would say , and i think dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . but the harmonic detail does tell you something . like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important . so . um . so , uh . so i think yeah . so wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him work on the , uh , multilingual super f superset kind of thing . uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it training a net on that , say , um , from from , uh from timit or something . is that or uh , for multiple databases . what what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? phd g: yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . uh . professor f: uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages , phd g: well , creating the mappings , actually . professor f: and then creating i m changing labels on timit ? phd g: yeah . professor f: or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? phd e: no . the multiple language . phd g: yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages , phd e: maybe for the other language because timit have more phone . professor f: yeah . phd a: so you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset . professor f: uh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: from each language to the superset , phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad c: there 's , um carmen was talking about this sampa thing , and it 's , um , it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable ipa , um , sort of thing , right ? and , um , they they have a web site that stephane was showing us that has , um has all the english phonemes and their sampa correspondent , um , phoneme , professor f: yeah . grad c: and then , um , they have spanish , they have german , they have all all sorts of languages , um , mapping mapping to the sampa phonemes , which phd e: yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for albayzin is n the transcription are of sampa the same , uh , how you say , symbol that sampa appear . phd b: sampa ? what does `` sampa `` mean ? professor f: mm - hmm . hmm . phd e: but i do n't know if timit o how is timit . phd b: so , i mean professor f: what phd b: i 'm sorry . professor f: go ahead . phd b: i was gon na say , does that mean ipa is not really international ? grad c: no , it 's it 's saying phd a: it uses special diacritics and stuff , which you ca n't do with ascii characters . grad c: y ca n't print on ascii . phd e: yeah . phd a: so the sampa 's just mapping those . phd b: oh , i see . got it . professor f: what , uh has ogi done anything about this issue ? do they have do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , they they they 're going actually the the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . well . professor f: aha . that 's right . uh , and that 's an interesting way to go too . phd a: so they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? phd g: i think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , english nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in english nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , i think it was seventeen , uh , broad classes . phd a: automatically derived mm - hmm . automatically derived broad classes , or ? phd g: yeah . yeah , i think so . phd a: uh - huh . phd g: uh , and , yeah . and the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . i think so . but hynek did n't add did n't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well . professor f: so that does make an interesting question , though . phd g: but professor f: is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . um . right ? i mean , if if in fact that is a better thing to do , should we leverage that , rather than doing , um , our own . right ? so , if i if if they s i mean , we have i we have the the trainings with our own categories . and now we 're saying , `` well , how do we handle cross - language ? `` and one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ? phd g: i think that there 's something wrong professor f: ok . what w phd g: or well , because well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's it 's ok for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and which could be the same , uh , class . professor f: i see . phd g: well . so . professor f: right . although , you are not using this for the phd g: so , i 'm professor f: you 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the phd g: yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class professor f: yeah . phd g: and so . phd a: so you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? professor f: yeah . phd g: well . yeah , yeah . mmm . phd b: fact , most confusions are within the phone phone classes , right ? i think , uh , larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera . professor f: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd g: yeah , this is another p yeah , another point . professor f: yeah . grad c: so so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff , professor f: but that 's what i thought they were gon na grad c: right ? professor f: did they not do that , or ? phd g: i do n't think so . well , professor f: so phd g: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d professor f: they 're talking about it , phd g: i d professor f: but that 's sort of a question whether they did phd g: w yeah . professor f: because that 's that 's the other route to go . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: instead of this , you know grad c: superclass . professor f: instead of the the the the superclass thing , which is to take so suppose y you do n't really mark arti to really mark articulatory features , you really wan na look at the acoustics and and see where everything is , and we 're not gon na do that . so , uh , the second class way of doing it is to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic uh , uh articulatory , uh , uh , features . so it wo n't really be right . you wo n't really have these overlapping things and so forth , phd a: so the targets of the net are these ? professor f: but phd a: articulatory features . professor f: articulatory feature . phd a: but that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? professor f: right . that 's right . phd a: ah . ok . professor f: you either do that or you have multiple nets . phd a: i see . professor f: um . and , um i do n't know if our software this if the qu versions of the quicknet that we 're using allows for that . do you know ? grad c: allows for ? professor f: multiple targets being one ? grad c: oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to to work . professor f: ok . so that that 'll work , yeah . grad c: yeah . professor f: ok . so , um , that 's another thing that could be done phd b: um . professor f: is that we could we could , uh , just translate instead of translating to a superset , just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . now the fact even though it 's a smaller number , it 's still fine because you have the the , uh , combinations . so , in fact , it has every , you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way . phd g: yeah . professor f: but it should go across languages better . phd a: we could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . we could i do n't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win . do you know what i 'm saying ? professor f: no . phd a: so , um , i mean , if your net is gon na be outputting , uh , a vector of basically of well , it 's gon na have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , i do n't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned , then you can just instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . eh , eh , what made me think about this is , i was talking with hynek and he said that there was a guy at a t - andt who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . and because they had done some cheating experiments professor f: this was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . so , this was larry saul who did this did this . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: he used sonorants . phd a: right , ok , professor f: was what he was doing . phd a: right . and they they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ? professor f: yeah . phd a: and determined that professor f: he he di he did n't mention that part . phd a: well , hynek said that that , i guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result . professor f: but . i see . ok . phd a: so i was thinking , you know it made me think about this , that if it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right . professor f: should be . because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . so that 's that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got got all the phones right . phd a: right . professor f: so , if that does n't help , there 's phd a: yeah . professor f: although , yeah , it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way , phd a: yeah . professor f: where we 're converting it into features . phd a: and then you also do n't know what error they 've got on the htk side . you know ? it sort of gives you your the best you could hope for , kind of . professor f: yeah . grad c: mmm . mmm , i see . phd b: the soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ? grad c: to sum up to one . phd b: so you ca n't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance . phd g: but perhaps you have the choice of the final nonl grad c: right . nonlinearity ? phd g: uh , nonlinearity , grad c: um , phd g: yeah . is it always softmax grad c: it 's sig no , it 's actually sigmoid - x phd g: or ? yeah . grad c: for the phd g: so if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's ok ? grad c: you , um professor f: did we just run out of disk , grad c: i think i think apparently , the , uh professor f: or ? phd b: why do n't you just choose linear ? right ? grad c: what 's that ? phd b: linear outputs ? grad c: linear outputs ? phd b: is n't that what you 'll want ? grad c: um . phd b: if you 're gon na do a kl transform on it . grad c: right , right . right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - x phd b: oh , you yeah ? grad c: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity . phd b: hmm . professor f: so , we 're we 're we 're off the air , or ? about to be off the air . </s> [SEP]what did the team discuss about the cheating experiment ?

the team thought that doing a cheating experiment , where they try to identify the most important features , would be useful . even if the results were not as great as they expected them to be , it could still be a valuable addition to their work . they thought that they could normalize the features using a sigmoid and try this for their work .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

the meeting was mainly about the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils . to start with , philip blaker generally introduced the position of qualification wales in the education system , focusing on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . meanwhile , gareth pierce talked about the process of making teaching materials available bilingually , both in english and welsh language . it was suggested that both versions be carried out simultaneously to ensure equity . concerns were also raised about whether the procedure would delay the availability of the textbooks . what 's more , the meeting also discussed the digitalization of materials . the council worried that the lack of digital accessibility and digital literacy would have an impact on pupils ' performance . however , it was concluded that the process would widen the access to different materials . the meeting also talked about the timetable of the curriculum reform and the general plan for the future , mainly on the qualification and teaching materials .

summarize the role of qualification wales , according to philip blaker .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the role of qualification wales , according to philip blaker .

qualification wales was the regulator of the awarding bodies , mainly focusing on the design of the qualifications and the delivery of the assessment . they were also responsible for maintaining standards , making sure that the grades people got were fair through comparable outcomes .

what did gareth pierce think of the translation of materials between the two languages ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]what did gareth pierce think of the translation of materials between the two languages ?

gareth pierce was aware that many websites they referred to in their resources and many case studies were purely in english , while it was the welsh language that was used in the educational context . gareth pierce believed it was very unfortunate for different schools to translate materials independently from each other , concluding that it would be necessary to translate materials in both languages to enable teachers to refer to terms in both languages .

why did darren millar am disagree about wjec 's approaches to textbooks ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]why did darren millar am disagree about wjec 's approaches to textbooks ?

darren millar thought replacing textbooks would cause a lot of pressure and extra work for teachers and students , believing that the textbook was a basic element for children to learn and revise and an essential core piece for qualification . also the digital resources were not accessible for everyone even in wales . darren millar an was also worried some learners would face disadvantages as a result of textbooks , who might not adapt digital contents well .

how did the wjec tackle the concerns raised by darren millar am ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]how did the wjec tackle the concerns raised by darren millar am ?

about the accessibility of digital resources , mike ebbsworth held that the teachers could print the materials to suit the learners at any given time , while gareth pierce believed that the technology , as well as the content of a textbook in some form , was vital . they both agreed that the digitalization process would add flexibility to the teaching materials . about the pupils ' adaptation of digital contents , the wjec thought digital literacy was a basic skill for examinations as a-level or gsce . also it was hard to evaluate whether it was the lack of textbooks that affected pupils ' performance , as there were so many factors .

what did gareth pierce talk about the subsidy in developing materials bilingually ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]what did gareth pierce talk about the subsidy in developing materials bilingually ?

gareth pierce believed that the subsidy would be necessary , and thought of the subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the curriculum .

what was the decision of wjec to reduce the delay between materials having an english version and a welsh version ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]what was the decision of wjec to reduce the delay between materials having an english version and a welsh version ?

the publishers in england agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version was available and then to publish simultaneously .

why was the council disagree about wjec 's decision to delay the welsh/english version ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]why was the council disagree about wjec 's decision to delay the welsh/english version ?

darren millar am thought it was inappropriate to delay the availability of a textbook that was already late on schedule so that the two language version could be published on the same day . john griffiths worried that the approach would potentially put english students using the english-language version or welsh students using the welsh-language version at a disadvantage .

what did gareth pierce think of the digital inequalities as a kind of unfairness ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]what did gareth pierce think of the digital inequalities as a kind of unfairness ?

gareth pierce believed that there were different types of unfairness in different individuals ' opinions . it was hard to judge what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in therms of achievement . so gareth pierce did n't think he could go any further than acknowledging any inequality was unfair .

according to gareth pierce , how did they develop the pupils ' skills to analyse and combine information into a discursive argument ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]according to gareth pierce , how did they develop the pupils ' skills to analyse and combine information into a discursive argument ?

they drew on a body of expertise and emphasized the importance of the approach and skill . they would also assist young people with their engagement with the scholar items and understanding some themes .

how did wjec respond to the criticisms from estyn about the materials ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]how did wjec respond to the criticisms from estyn about the materials ?

gareth pierce decided that they would have regular meetings with estyn about any problems with the specimen assessments and the mark schemes . they agreed with estyn that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts and would work on that .

according to philip blaker , who should be responsible for developing the curriculum resources ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to today 's meeting of the children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? darren millar am: yes , i have a declaration of interest , chair . i understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry . and , in addition , i 'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video . lynne neagle am: thank you , darren . so , item 2 , then , today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils , which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers . the committee team has been out to take video evidence around wales , and we 're now going to watch the results of that on the screen . okay . well , i 'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video . we 'll move on now then to our evidence session , and i 'm very pleased to welcome gareth pierce , chief executive of the wjec , mike ebbsworth , assistant director educational support , wjec , philip blaker , chief executive of qualifications wales , and emyr george , associate director general qualifications at qualifications wales . so , thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions now , and if i can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and welsh government is . philip blaker: shall i start ? so , qualifications wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies , so we regulate awarding bodies . our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies . we do n't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that . in regulating the awarding body , our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment . so , it 's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources . that said , when we are going through the design of the qualifications , we go through an approval process , so we develop approval criteria and we ask wjec to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well . so , our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able , through the sample assessment materials and the specifications , to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations . so , that 's setting out the knowledge , skills and understandings that will be assessed by wjec when those exams are sat . we have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources . so , during the last round of approvals , we pulled together interested parties in welsh government , regional consortia and wjec to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources . our other primary role is in maintaining standards . so , as the regulator of qualifications , what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so , the grades that people get—are fair . one of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so , the awarding process , the methods that will be used—and then we monitor wjec's award of grades against those processes . during a period of change , we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach , largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this , where there 's a change in a specification particularly , because there are any number of reasons , including resources , why performance may be different from one year to the next , but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that , all things being equal , if the cohorts have the same ability , the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next . we do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks . much of that has been related to the timelines that we 've all had to deliver new specifications against , which have been far from ideal for everybody involved . we think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is n't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness . in terms of the roles of others , welsh government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into welsh medium . and there is , through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between england and wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks . now , that 's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also , potentially , around a paradigm shift in what 's expected of those materials . so , i think that sets out qualification wales 's position in particular . lynne neagle am: thank you . gareth . gareth pierce: thank you very much . the wjec does provide what 's required in a regulatory sense , and there are two things there—the specification , which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching , and also exemplar assessments , which include marking , and those go to the regulator before they are published . so , those samples go to the regulator . the wjec also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously . each new course has substantial teaching guidance , which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils . and we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new , and then annually there is some charge for those events . they are face-to-face events , or , increasingly , they are webinars . the wjec also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks . we do n't have a commercial agreement with publishers . indeed , the regulations as they stand in wales , northern ireland and england preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks , but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications . so , that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for wales as we move forward , whether it would be possible— . as we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in wales for gcse and a-levels , in passing , that is something that i would want to suggest may deserve review . we encourage publishers to take an interest . at the moment , these tend to be england-based—hodder education and illuminate education , for example—and then the welsh government does provide funding to the wjec to support the process of providing welsh-language versions for those textbooks . so , we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process , and also to pay for translation costs , and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology . we have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the wjec , and we work closely with external translators too , and we use translation technology increasingly , which facilitates a great many things . beyond that , i think the wjec does see the need for flexibility , particularly when difficulties arise , and you heard there of some of the methods used by mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions . and i should also note perhaps that , as the wjec is very much involved with stakeholders , we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future . lynne neagle am: thank you . we heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials . what is your view on that as a good use of teachers ' time in wales ? gareth pierce: i think the question of translation is an interesting one . there was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating . i think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because , as i mentioned earlier , there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time . perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers , being able to draw resources from two sources ? another interesting question , i think , is— . the welsh language , of course , is a language that is used in an educational context , but we are in a big world that 's an english language world . i 'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies , as was mentioned in that video—they are available in english only . therefore , i think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? and , certainly , it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen welsh-medium schools , for example , translating material from the same website independently of each other . if there are a few websites , or a few case studies , in this big external digital world that are worth translating , should n't we able to source those early ? because i do n't think it 's a good use of teachers ' time . but i also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one . what is the vision in terms of teaching in a welsh-medium class , in particular , perhaps , in the a-level classes ? i 'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages , as well as explaining those terms in their own language . but the impression i got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening , and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context . lynne neagle am: llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: just to pick up on your point on the additional materials , whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview , and then to respond to the demand ? gareth pierce: mike , in the wjec , has conversations about resources in the team he 's part of . mike ebbsworth: yes . that is extremely important—to identify , as gareth has just said , those materials that need to be translated , and not everything needs to . we 've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia , and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention . llyr gruffydd am: but would you— ? the question i 'm asking is : would you still see that as a core part of your work , although it 's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you 're required to provide ? gareth pierce: yes , we invest substantially from the wjec budget into digital resources . so , through the types of conversations that mike mentioned , in terms of identifying needs , deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas , that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation . of course , the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers . llyr gruffydd am: so , it 's already happening to a certain extent . gareth pierce: well , yes , but we could always go a step further . llyr gruffydd am: and do we need further resources for that ? gareth pierce: well , it 's an interesting question . the wjec is doing as much as we can— llyr gruffydd am: why is n't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen , then ? gareth pierce: one can always do more , of course . the wjec is trying to use its budget prudently , and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments . so , we do have a budget , but it 's not a bottomless pit . so , we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that mike is undertaking . mike ebbsworth: there is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs , and that those are suited towards the requirements . quite often a teacher—and i 've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything . but , certainly , that 's not always the case . quite often , the focus is on different things . there has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years , and we 've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment . llyr gruffydd am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in on any of this ? philip blaker: i 'm just going to say one thing . teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources , and , in doing that , they 'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language . i think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually , and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt . and what i would n't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse , different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative , which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate . but i think it is reasonable to expect for that core , common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default , and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . a final question from me , then . the £500,000 funding for welsh-medium educational resource that 's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that 's going to be spent ? gareth pierce: tthe wjec has some information in terms of that budget . it is a welsh government budget , and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers , and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred . now , there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources , and also , although this would be a very small part , a contribution towards seminars for publishers . but that is n't a full picture of the £500,000 ; i think you would have to ask the welsh government about the exact allocation of that total fund . but there may be some flexibility . we 've just started this financial year ; i 'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource . do you want to add anything , mike ? mike ebbsworth: certainly . we have contributed a list of publications , for example , that are ongoing , and they 're aware of that , and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of welsh . lynne neagle am: thank you . darren millar . darren millar am: this is a huge mess , is n't it ? it 's a huge mess , which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers , lots of pressure and extra work for learners , and is affecting the well-being of students , at a time when they need to be mentally fit , in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up . we know that the problems are not confined to welsh-medium resources ; they 're also being experienced in english language resources as well , particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks . you 've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers , and i would agree with you on that front . but is n't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody 's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn , and swot up on , in advance of exams ? gareth pierce: i think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently . and i agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available . but i think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them ; perhaps the teacher uses them . there is an emphasis , for example , from one pupil there , on that traditional model of revision , namely class notes and his own revision notes , but that he personally also wanted a textbook . so , certainly , the content of a textbook is going to be important , and that that 's available in some form or other . it was very interesting to know , for example , that when he was describing the traditional model of revision , he felt that he 'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes . much of that digital content , of course , corresponds to the content areas of a textbook , but it 's just in a different form . but , in general , there should be a textbook . and some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do n't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time . that does n't happen so often in english medium , but we know about that gap in time in the welsh provision . darren millar am: well , it 's happened fairly regularly in the english-medium textbook world , has n't it ? my daughter—she featured in that video—has got her rs qualifications coming up , and she only had a textbook over the easter period . i mean , it's completely unacceptable . and many others in that video are also being affected . you mentioned digital resources ; not everybody 's got access to digital resources in their own homes , even , in wales . so , are n't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook ' method of revision and benefit from that ? mike ebbsworth: we do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print . most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use , to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time . but certainly there are materials there . if there are activities , then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home . so , i would be sceptical about that comment . we are thinking of the totality , ultimately . gareth pierce: i think you 're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture . the young people talk about websites and blogs , and we 're talking about digital resources , so being able to reach those resources , i think , is vital in wales . it 's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters . one praises what 's available digitally , whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers . as mike said , we've created those resources that can be adapted . one teaching organisation says that it just creates more work , while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable . of course , the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that , in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables , we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later , but available digitally at an early stage . but i agree with your core comment that technology is vital , and access to that , and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well . darren millar am: mr blaker , you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification . philip blaker: i think we would n't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks , recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources . i think what i 'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model , which is very much around the fact that every time there 's a change in a specification , there 's a new textbook , which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body , which is a nice model for a publisher , because every time there 's a change , there 's an opportunity for a new textbook . there are two concerns that i 'd like to raise on that . first , the focus on teaching and learning . ofsted and also estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations . i have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency . and also , there 's the sustainability of the model . we know that we 're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change . that 's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications . i think i 'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than , perhaps , the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest . darren millar am: so , you do n't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations . emyr george: i 'd just like to pick you up on that . i think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you 'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer , but on a subject , perhaps , rather than a specific specification , because i think there 's a tendency to conflate the two , and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification , or a new updated specification , will remain unchanged . it is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis , or a different style of questioning , but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources , for example , which can highlight that change , particularly to a teacher , so that they can shape their lesson planning around that . what we are looking at here are reformed gcses and reformed a-levels in subjects that are well-established , traditional subjects , and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal , i think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources , including textbooks , out there in schools already . we 're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in . i think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did n't contain any extraneous material , but that perhaps is an ideal picture and i think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students . darren millar am: but of course , unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the uk , we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they 're appropriate for use in the classroom , given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications . can i just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? mr blaker , i note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the wjec in terms of the outcome of assessments , and i think that that 's a very positive thing . but , how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they 're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning , traditional sort of swotting up for examinations , versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? how do you make sure that it 's fair to the cohort as a whole , while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? philip blaker: the systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort . it 's very difficult—in fact , it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance , because you could well have a textbook that 's been available for some time , it may be somebody 's preferred leaning style to use a textbook , but did they use that textbook effectively ? you know , did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? so , there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance . i think it 's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources . motivation would be one thing , an individual learner 's motivation in the subject . the biggest input would be the quality of teaching . i think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia , which we saw yesterday . they particularly wanted to stress this point i think ; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner 's ultimate performance in the examination . darren millar am: i understand that , but you also understand that someone who does n't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom , perhaps , textbooks are less important . gareth pierce: i think also , perhaps , related to that , it is important to mention digital literacy here . every young person in wales , i would hope , taking gcse or a-level , should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills . then , they have the choice whether they go down the digital route , or do they do as mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks , in the hope that those would be available ? that would then allow for a pupil 's personal learning choice to be reflected . it 's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils . not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way . so , the flexibility for the pupil is very important , i think . darren millar am: i understand that , but i 've got people in my constituency who have n't even got a broadband link at home , so there 's a digital disadvantage as well . can i just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? it was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both english and welsh for the new qualifications . we 're three years on , what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? if you 've got these resources digitally , why ca n't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? gareth pierce: i think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened . there were some in 2015 , other subjects in 2016 , and other subjects in 2017. those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work . perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources . i would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources , and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources . there are more past papers available , of course . we are working on sample work at the request of teachers . so , every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied . but those same difficulties have , unfortunately , affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects , and that 's why we 're discussing the same thing in 2018 . darren millar am: so , it 's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ? gareth pierce: yes . philip blaker: i think gareth , in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously , has said about the timeline , the schedule , for reforms . now , that 's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in england . now that we 've reached a point of divergence in gcses and a-levels , between england and wales , it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that does n't place the pressures on the system . so , gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms , but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that . so , the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process , the awarding body preparing its submissions to use , and then system readiness thereafter . darren millar am: that timeline was obviously set by the welsh government . i assume that advice was given by wjec and qualifications wales and your predecessor organisation to the welsh government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by . gareth pierce: yes , and similarly in england , the examination boards working in england would have provided the same advice to the government there . and , of course , the welsh government programme was associated with the reform programme in england , in particularly for those a-level subjects , where there was a strong influence from the universities across the uk in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the a-level subjects . so , england and wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries , and i would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in wales and england . but our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved , then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be , thinking about what the teaching programme will be , and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally , with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching . so , as they will know what resources will be available , we 'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes , and then that timeline is convenient for everybody . lynne neagle am: okay . darren , i 've got to bring llyr in now . llyr gruffydd am: estyn , naht , ucac , nasuwt , wjec and qualifications wales have pointed to the way in which the government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties . you mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave . well , what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we 're currently facing ? that is , how confident can we be that the situation wo n't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve ? gareth pierce: that is a very key question , is n't it ? we have started to discuss this , specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in wales , with the welsh government around the table and qualifications wales around the table . i think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is : what will the nature of the information available in april 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum ? at what level of detail will it be ? to what extent will it be adapted again after april 2019 ? is it detailed enough , really , for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching , and that we then still have a role with publishers , even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications ? wjec has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well . i think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear , because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in september 2022. if we 're talking about a year of preparation , that brings us back to september 2021. if we 're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year , we 're talking about september 2020. so , the timetable does appear already tight , particularly if there 's something that 's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019 , and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes . so , i think it is a key question , and i ca n't be confident at the moment that this is going to work . lynne neagle am: did you want to come in , philip ? philip blaker: i think one of the big differences is it 's a tsunami we can see coming . so , young people will be assessed for the first time , assuming linear exams , in the summer 2027 , which is some way away , and , actually , given the reform process historically , this is probably the most foresight we 've seen of a big change like this . there is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum , because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum , so we do need to see something coming out of that . i think , for us , once we 've seen the curriculum , and we 've got better sight of it , we 'll be able to plan things out . we 've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications , and , ultimately , there 'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made , probably in 2023 , which would be that if the conditions do n't appear right for safe implementation , then we would make a recommendation to welsh government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification , not in terms of the curriculum , for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up . so , we 're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process , but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions . gareth pierce: just one very brief comment in that context : i think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there . they emphasise , in the context of the curriculum , the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing , therefore i think we truly need to discuss that . does that suggest that there wo n't be so much need for national resources , or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case ? we need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail , i think . llyr gruffydd am: yes , certainly , and one is concerned that that conversation is n't already happening , but , yes , okay , you 've made that point clearly . if i could return , therefore , to the commercial issue—clearly , there is a shortage of providers in wales , and we are reliant on others . you suggested that the wjec may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed . i assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context . gareth pierce: yes , and we 've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in wales . certainly , there is interest . i think that i have n't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest : the interest is there , but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable , what the implications are of working in two languages , what kind of business model , perhaps , would be suitable for the publishers in wales , how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work , because they would want to build their teams , and develop skills within those teams , and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing . and therefore , those are the sort of issues that we 're starting a discussion on , in the hope of having a discussion in june to move that forward . of course , welsh government , qualifications wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion , not only wjec , but we 've been part of initiating that discussion . llyr gruffydd am: is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing ? gareth pierce: yes , i think , and there is some enthusiasm . for example , a number of publishers in wales are within an association describing itself as cwlwm cyhoeddwyr cymru . myrddin ap dafydd is chair of cwlwm at the moment , and there is enthusiasm and vision , certainly . so , there 's a wonderful opportunity , i think , for wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them . llyr gruffydd am: and we 're talking here not just about translating but developing resources , and the point , i think , is an important one around some of the evidence that we 've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning , rather than having to translate something . because there have been comments that translations are clunky , difficult to follow and not—i 'm not saying that they 're not fit for purpose , but certainly do n't facilitate teaching , perhaps , as easily as one would wish . gareth pierce: yes , i would agee , and that begins with the authors , does n't it ? we must have the authors— llyr gruffydd am: so , the expertise , and the same capacty with the publishers as well . gareth pierce: yes , and we do want to nurture authors within wales , particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects . so , we need authors who can be developed , and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers . that 's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers . llyr gruffydd am: would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy , if it were to develop bilingually ? or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? gareth pierce: our view in the wjec is that subsidy will be necessary . but we could rethink the model for the subsidy , perhaps . at the moment , the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the welsh-medium version . why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the welsh curriculum ? and perhaps we would need a little more funding for that . but there will be organisations such as the wjec who will still be interested in contributing , because we are a charity , and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in wales . llyr gruffydd am: but in terms of where we are now , resources have to be translated . i struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource . i would like to know better , perhaps , what the main barriers are in that sense . but also , how long is acceptable to wait for a translation , in your view ? mike ebbsworth: we 've done a great deal of work recently , over recent years , to ensure that that delay between having an english version and a welsh version is reduced . we are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the welsh and the english are available simultaneously . in those terms , we 've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we 've named this morning , so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced . there is a risk there , of course . the nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind , or edit as he or she is writing . well , with that model , we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward , chapter by chapter perhaps , so that there would be no changes to be made from then on . at the end of the process , then , the publishers in england have agreed to hold the english version back for a period of time until the welsh version is available , and then to publish both simultaneously . unless that timetable is followed throughout the process , there are inherent risks in that process , of course , as i 've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials , and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to . gareth pierce: and perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package , and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing , how the welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that are n't text necessarily—pictures and so forth . so , eight weeks , i think , is the time that we 've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the welsh version in that period of time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . darren . darren millar am: i just want to ask about this eight-week delay . so , you ’ re telling us , mr ebbsworth , that the wjec has agreed with hodder and illuminate that , in future , even if an english textbook is available for publication , and it ’ s already late , you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the welsh-medium textbook ? mike ebbsworth: we can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed . naturally , if something is late in english , then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken . but that 's the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in english and authored in english , we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround . darren millar am: i understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach , which seems much more equitable . but to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have n't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day , seems to be wholly inappropriate . can i ask , also , why on earth it is n't possible to produce welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to english on occasions ? mike ebbsworth: we 're entirely open to that and to that sort of model . darren millar am: so , why has that never ever been done ? gareth pierce: well , of course , it would happen with subjects that stem from wales , but i think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors , therefore , tend to work through the medium of english . but , just to be clear , this idea of delaying an english version is something that the welsh government is eager for us to experiment with , but not with textbooks that are already late . they are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000 . so , in a way , this is an experiment and the welsh government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available . darren millar am: so , you 're being forced to do this by the welsh government , rather than— gareth pierce: well , we 've agreed to do it in discussion with them . darren millar am: so , are you happy with that approach ? gareth pierce: well , as long as the textbook is n't late in the first place , then yes ; it 's worth trying . there is a challenge on the eight weeks , there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the english version first of all , but we are willing to use this as a test bed , and we 're working on two specific textbooks on this . lynne neagle am: i think the committee is struggling with this idea , so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that , then ? is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? gareth pierce: well , no , in a way , it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources . with the digital materials , the intention is that things are available in time and that they 're available in both languages at the same time . so , trying to imitate that with printed text is what we 're trying to do , but not with texts that are already late . so , if these books keep to the timetable , then they will be available in time in both languages , but that the english version has stayed before going out on the shelves . llyr gruffydd am: so , that 's to say that the english version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation . mike ebbsworth: well , ultimately , i may have used the wrong words in saying that we 're holding the english back . the english version would still be in the process , just as the welsh version would be , and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing . there is an element of editing the english as well as the welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period . so , a draft form might be available , and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible , but then that has to be held up before publication . lynne neagle am: thank you . john . john griffiths am: just on that , chair , it 's nonetheless the case , as we 've heard , i think , and as the letter to the committee from kirsty williams has made clear , that there might be a situation where the english-language version of a textbook could be made available , but it is n't made available because there is n't a welsh-language version . and , as the chair said , is that about putting those students in wales on the same footing , and if so , how does that relate to the fact that these students , including those who could have had earlier access to the english-language version , are competing with students over the border , as we heard on the video earlier , for those precious university places ? does n't it place the english-language student using the english-language version at a potential disadvantage , compared to students over the border ? gareth pierce: i think this is a point for qualifications wales to a certain extent , but applicants for qualifications in wales are assessed as a national cohort , if truth be told , so , each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort . the standards stem from the three-nation system . so , in discussion with qualifications wales , we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in wales in any subject , be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason . philip blaker: certainly , from a comparable outcomes perspective , the fewer differences that there are that are differential— . so , the idea of textbooks being available in english and welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity . so , if we 're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective , it makes the awarding easier if everybody 's on a common playing field . it 's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned . this subject has already been awarded at as-level last year , so it has gone through an award and will go through the full a-level award this year . the comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year , in the absence of a textbook , and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level . similarly , with other subjects that have gone through reforms , we 've seen it with the gcses that were awarded last year , ass that were awarded last year and a-levels that were awarded last year : we saw good comparability year on year . lynne neagle am: go on then , darren . is that okay , john ? darren millar am: just a very brief follow-up on that , at the cohort level , yes , you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected , but what you do n't know and ca n't tell , because you 're not able to drill down to the individual student level , is whether children , young people , were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers . philip blaker: i guess we 're in a situation where there 's no evidence either way that that— darren millar am: the absence of evidence does n't mean that it did n't happen . philip blaker: no , but there is no evidence to suggest that . we have no positive evidence to suggest that . darren millar am: well , i think you 've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it 's causing , and the concern that learners have about their outcomes . i think it would be very interesting , actually , to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes . is that something that qualifications wales could do on a sample basis ? philip blaker: historically , that sort of evidence has been very unreliable . gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me . predicted grades used to be provided . certainly , back in my day at an awarding body they were provided , and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade . i do n't know if you 've got anything on that , gareth . gareth pierce: no , we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable , because there are so many factors . but i think , at the end of the day , what we see is , yes , i agree there is evidence of stress , but i think there 's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation , and tending to do that very well . that 's the evidence that we 've got , for example , in the as religious studies last year , that the cohort did extremely well in fact . we ca n't disagree that there 's evidence of stress , but i think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they 've got : classroom notes , revision notes , as they mentioned , and the various other materials that they referred to . lynne neagle am: okay . john . john griffiths am: coming back to the effect of the lack of resources , we heard on the video , as you 've just mentioned , gareth , that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety , and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources , as we discussed . we know exam time is very , very stressful—i 'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general , without any additional problems or perceptions of problems . so , with that sort of background , would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications ? i know we 've discussed this in terms of it being difficult , perhaps , to show cause and effect , but i think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted . would you accept that ? gareth pierce: i 'd have to agree . there is evidence of their concern , is n't there ? but as philip said , what we do n't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment , because there are so many factors , there are so many different kinds of resources that they 've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks , they 're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them . of course , it 's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard , so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned , yes , and as you 've said , examinations are a stressful time in general , but they are also young people who are doing their level best , and usually do get the results that they have worked for . that 's the evidence that we have : the results tend to be achieved . john griffiths am: okay . coming back again to matters that we 've already discussed , but just to put to you in a fairly focused way , would you accept that it is n't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having , depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they 're studying through ? would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? gareth pierce: ideally , resources , digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis . but i think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail , different individuals would be able to say , 'there are different types of unfairness . ' you referred earlier to the digital inequalities . is there an economic inequality ? there is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available . so , i think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? ideally , each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled . so , i do n't think i can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair , but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one , and therefore we 're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own . john griffiths am: could i put to you , finally then , what estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks , marking criteria and specimen papers , that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately , and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils ' achievement ? would you accept that ? gareth pierce: it 's interesting—they link three quite different things there , do n't they ? we 've discussed the textbooks in some detail . when they refer to sample assessments , we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame , and they have to be approved . so , in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes , and they are statutorily available , in a way . when they talk about exemplars , there are different interpretations of that . one request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us . of course , they 're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time . we can make them available digitally , and through various other methods . but in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination , is marked by us , and is then made available . so , we can respond to that demand when it arises . i would like to have a conversation with estyn , indeed , to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to . emyr george: may i offer a comment on that quote from estyn ? they talk about a reduction in attainment and that , to some extent , brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we 're talking about . that method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification , we know that performance in an exam can fall , and that is due to a number of different factors . teachers are n't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam . there are fewer past assessment resources available ; there are n't any past papers , for example . certainly , knowing that you 're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination , and examinations are a matter of concern already . it 's very difficult , if not impossible , to differentiate between those factors , but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils ' performance in an exam , and that 's why , when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades , we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can , on the level of the whole national cohort , to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam . gareth pierce: could i just make a brief comment on the sample assessments ? now , interestingly , when the english , welsh , maths , and maths and numeracy gcses were new , the welsh government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials . we had to produce one for the regulator , but they wanted to see us produce far more , and we did that . but there are risks inherent in that , too . if we create more and more sample assessments , then does that create more risk of teaching to the test ? and every time we produce one of these , of course , we are using robust assessment ideas , and they 're out there to be used for test purposes . so , we need to be careful that we do n't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners ' good ideas in the sample material . so , it 's an interesting theme , but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with estyn on that . philip blaker: i just wanted to say , looking towards— . reforms always throw up issues like this . it 's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact . i think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms , particularly knowing that we 've got some on the radar already , and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future . so , if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource , rather than a qualification resource , i think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced . so , going back to when i studied my a-levels in the 1980s , there was this common body of knowledge that was an a-level textbook in biology that was n't focused around an individual awarding body . when we talked to unions about this on monday , they said , 'yes , when we used to teach many years ago , there were curriculum resources like that , and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification , we either did or did n't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum ' . that 's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that did n't get taught because it was no longer in the text , despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge . but i think if we can shift this paradigm—and i would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly , away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for , i would suggest , a much healthier model in the future . there are various ways of doing that . in the united states , for example , there are some states within the united states that produce a state textbook . now , that can have issues , particularly if it 's politically orientated—so , if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that 's taught . but if there is independence in that state model , then i think that can be quite strong model . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , they 've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks . so , hong kong , which is a very high-performing jurisdiction , is trying to move away from that model in the future . gareth pierce: could i just add very , very briefly— lynne neagle am: very briefly , because i want to bring hefin in . gareth pierce: i know that , in our letter to you , we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge . the assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation . so , therefore , we really do need resources that support that way of working , and i 'm sure that lots of the young people we 've heard from—what they 're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content , but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively . in fact , an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator , maybe , is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall . do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions , sometimes in both languages if they 've learnt it in that way ? should n't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena ? and then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation . lynne neagle am: thank you . hefin . hefin david am: i want to welcome these particular comments , because having come from a higher education background , what i 've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules , where you 're relying on academic journal articles and you 're piecing together the story yourself , based on the curriculum you develop yourself . so , curriculum-focused resources are very welcome . i fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet , when they go to university , they are not expected to repeat what 's in the textbook ; they 're expected to do exactly as gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument . so , therefore , i 'm interested to know how you 've worked with higher education to develop that approach . i also welcome what you 've just said too . lynne neagle am: can i ask for brief answers , please ? gareth pierce: yes , well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to he and therefore what their learners want or , in some cases , they are he people themselves . we do draw on a body of expertise , and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide . hefin david am: i think the difficulty and the difference is that , at he level , the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at gcse level . that 's part of the problem you have with that approach . gareth pierce: yes . and i think , interestingly—i know we 've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—i think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious . they would be described as scholarly , and i think some of the young people on the video made that point , did n't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? but we need to assist them in doing so . we need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning . lynne neagle am: philip . philip blaker: it was just one point . we recently published a report on the welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate , and i think it 's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education . through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate , there 's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills , particularly at the advanced level bacc , to make people really he-ready so that they 're better able to engage with that different style of learning . so , i think there 's a huge opportunity that should n't be diminished within the advanced welsh bacc . lynne neagle am: thank you . last questions from mark then . mark reckless am: gareth , can i just put to you— ? on the estyn criticism , i think you 've answered one aspect of their criticism that wjec did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process , and i understand your position there , but they went on and said , 'at times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes ' and also , 'it would be helpful if the wjec ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification . ' do you have a response to those points ? gareth pierce: again , probably , i 'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes , because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through philip 's team as well or his welsh government predecessors as regulators , depending on which qualifications they were . obviously , we need to be spot-on with those . very occasionally , somebody will identify an error , and obviously we then correct them , because these are available digitally online . so , if there is a problem , we want to hear about it and then we can correct it . but , yes , i agree with their fundamental premise , that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts , including , as we mentioned earlier , so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as wjec free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching . we need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year . so , the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead . mark reckless am: so , what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from estyn and having that conversation with them ? has that not happened ? gareth pierce: we have met with estyn a couple of times recently , actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit , and also when they were planning a review of some of the a-level work . because we do have regular meetings with them , we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here i 'm sure . mark reckless am: looking at the structure and the relationship between qualifications wales and the wjec— . i understand in the model in england—you 've got ofqual , the regulator , and you have various competing exam boards , some i think with for-profit motivation . we do n't have that in wales ; there is a sole regulator and a single , dominant examination board . does that mean that there 's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies , particularly given wjec is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in qualifications wales have ? philip blaker: the roles are very distinct , so i 'd tell you there's no overlap . what we try and do is try and make sure that there 's a good connection between the work that we do . wjec has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications . we have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly . i would say a strength of the welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely , because much of the work that ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies does n't lead to what 's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards . now , the opportunity that we have in wales is , where we have a single awarding body , we can have a close and good working relationship with wjec , but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at wjec as one of our regulated bodies . gareth pierce: can i make a general point ? perhaps the important opportunity in wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations , such as the consortia , can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and cpd that will be required to support the new curriculum , and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed . we 've referred to many organisations today , but there are others . the welsh books council , for example , is part of this discussion . the learned society of wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the welsh dimension of the curriculum . there was mention of the he sector earlier . teachers ' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas . there is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach . there will be a need for some financial resource from the welsh government—yes , certainly—and the wjec can provide some resources , but i think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources . mark reckless am: but does n't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that philip was talking about earlier , where we had textbooks based on the curriculum , and there 's that core , but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook was n't there for the particular exam approach ? if you have a single , dominant exam board , and you have a welsh curriculum that 's developed with that board , how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam ? philip blaker: so , if we look at qualification , a qualification should be based on the curriculum that 's being offered , because learning should be based around the curriculum , and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge , skills and understanding , the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop . so , i think there are two very distinct things . now , of course , what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed , there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for . i think what we 're trying to say is , from an educational perspective , what we 'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive , so that , if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge , skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create , they should succeed in the qualification . mark reckless am: and you suggested earlier that , if need be , the qualification could be pushed back a year , but not the curriculum . does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification ? philip blaker: it would be possible . mark reckless am: but satisfactory ? philip blaker: because , if we 're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16 , what professor donaldson said at the very beginning , with 'successful futures ' , was , actually , if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage , so that they 're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment— . ideally , you 'd be in a position where you 've got gcses that have been reformed to marry up to any change , but i do n't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do . clearly , we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing . we would much rather be in a position of having reforms , but , equally , i 'd want to see any reforms delivered safely , and i would n't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline . but i think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and i think as we get further into this we 'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what 's the right thing to do . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: very briefly , darren . darren millar am: just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we 've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— . so , obviously , the wjec 's interested in the examinations and the qualifications . that 's your role as well in terms of qualifications wales . so , who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? philip blaker: i think , for a new model , that needs to be determined . welsh government has a role in curriculum at the moment . they have responsibility for curriclum and they 've already started work with the seminar last year , and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future . i think we need to evolve that approach , and i think welsh government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment . darren millar am: are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere ? philip blaker: yes , there are models where you can have— . for example , in northern ireland , you have the regulator , the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof . so , you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in northern ireland with the council for the curriculum , examinations and assessment . equally , if you look at somewhere like hong kong , you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component . so , there are lots of different models that can be developed . but , of course , in wales , and also previously in england , the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum . so , there has been that model in the past in wales . gareth pierce: just very briefly . lynne neagle am: really quickly , please . gareth pierce: just one thing very briefly , in terms of the wjec . i mentioned earlier that , in the past , the wjec has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages . certainly , key stage 3 is closely linked to gcse , and , therefore , if the wjec continues to be a player—as i hope it will—in the area of resources for gcse and a-level , then the wjec is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing , translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages . so , i 'm sure that the wjec would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you very much . well , we 're out of time , so can i thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions ? i think it 's been a very useful and informative session . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy , following the meeting . but thank you very much , again , for your attendance . gareth pierce: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: item 4 is papers to note . in view of the time , can i ask whether members are happy to note all those papers in a block ? can i just flag that i would like to return to paper to note 3 , which is the letter from the cabinet secretary for education on minority ethnic , gypsy , roma and traveller learners , when we go into private , if that 's okay with members ? item 5 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you . </s> [SEP]according to philip blaker , who should be responsible for developing the curriculum resources ?

philip blaker thought it needed to be determined . but he also believed that welsh government had a role in curriculum at that moment , so welsh government had responsibility for the curriculum and drew people together to look at the new model for the future .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

after a brief review of the last meeting , industrial designer , user interface and marketing gave their presentations respectively on components , interface design and user requirements of the new remote control . considering marketing 's advice and the budget , the team temporarily decided on a double-curved rubber remote control with an ergonomic joystick and an lcd screen menu display . users could program their remote controls on the lcd screen as well as using software on the computer . power would be supplied to the remote control by standard batteries . the beeping sound of the location function could be customized . project manager informed the team of the plan for the next meeting . industrial designer and user interface would present a prototype of the remote control . the team would also make a product evaluation .

what did the group discuss about user requirements of the new remote control ?[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]what did the group discuss about user requirements of the new remote control ?

marketing pointed out that customers generally expected the new remote control to be fancy and technologically innovative . the trendiest shape might be fruit and vegetable . users hoped that the remote control could be spongy . marketing suggested that the team could decide on a shape of fruit and rubber material .

what did marketing think of rubber material when discussing user requirements of the new remote control ?[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]what did marketing think of rubber material when discussing user requirements of the new remote control ?

during industrial designer 's presentation , the team was asked to choose from rubber , plastic and titanium . marketing showed a preference for rubber . the reasons were explained when user requirements of the new remote control were presented . marketing pointed out that customers expected the remote control to be spongy . to bring a spongy feel , rubber was the best choice . besides , rubber was damage-resistant , and its price was more reasonable than titanium .

what did the group discuss about details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting ?[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]what did the group discuss about details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting ?

the team made some decisions on the remote control design for the present stage . the keypad was given up , for a menu display could better classify channels into subgroups . standard components such as the conventional battery were the final choices for the remote control . the team would adopt a double-curved design and rubber material . a corporate logo would be incorporated . there would be a special beeping sound for the location function . the new remote control could be programmed on the lcd screen as well as using software on the computer . in the next meeting , industrial designer and user interface would present a prototype of the remote control . the team would also make a product evaluation .

what did user interface think of the incorporation of a keypad when discussing details on the new remote control style and a plan for the next meeting ?[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]what did user interface think of the incorporation of a keypad when discussing details on the new remote control style and a plan for the next meeting ?

user interface pointed out that the keypad might irritate users , for it was hard for them to remember the exact number of every channel . instead , user interface recommended the lcd screen menu display . with the menu structure , channels could be better classified into subgroups . users could name these subgroups as `` news '' , `` music '' and so on .

summarize project manager 's opinions towards the idea of a programmable remote control when discussing details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]summarize project manager 's opinions towards the idea of a programmable remote control when discussing details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting .

marketing did not understand the purpose of a programmable remote control . project manager agreed with user interface on that if users used the remote control for different devices , they would need to program particular commands into codes on the remote control . project manager added that users could even make the remote control perform a specific function by looking up the function name produced by themselves , instead of looking for the command code on the computer .

what did project manager think of the target market group when discussing details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting ?[SEP] <s>project manager: alright , yeah . crack on . okay so we 'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . i think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we 've um set out . those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , lcd and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being i suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . um we were also going to use novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we 'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . um that pretty much sums up the last one . so we 'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the industrial designer if it 's possible . industrial designer: uh uh okay . project manager: um uh the con today is the concep today . industrial designer: i 'll just project manager: this uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um sorry about this . . and is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ? industrial designer: uh i have a presentation i just saved it in the uh the folder . project manager: yeah , okay well i 'll just uh i 'll load it up then . um . which one do y industrial designer: uh . project manager: oh , interface concept ? user interface: yeah , that 's me . project manager: that 's you . we 've got trend watching , that 's you . industrial designer: it 's uh components design . project manager: components design . industrial designer: . project manager: okay . industrial designer: alright . so uh . the case uh le that 's what i wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . uh but later on we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . so uh we decide what it 's gon na be . probably plastic . uh we need the infra-red transmitter . get that off the shelf . uh joystick we 'll probably if we 're gon na use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . um if you go on to the next slide . uh if you go on to f uh findings , it 's like two or three slides down . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right . so , this is what i found we can use . uh three different types of batteries . um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one . project manager: okay . now , industrial designer: um . project manager: the kinetic one , we 've 'cause that 's the ones where like you the movement causes it . marketing: cost is yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the bat uh the battery for a a watch would n't require a lot of power , would be my one query . user interface: mm . project manager: is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ? user interface: there 's also a watch moves around a great deal more . project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: w industrial designer: yeah , i do n't think it would . um . and solar cells , i dunno about that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh . we should probably just use conventional batteries . um , just like in usual remote controls . project manager: which i suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you 'd say ? industrial designer: um . yeah . um . and these are three different types of or two different types three different types of shapes you can have . uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . um the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you ca n't have a titanium one for a double curved , project manager: marketing: titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ? industrial designer: uh which would be yeah , marketing: is it not also it 's expensive ? industrial designer: and light . uh , i think so as well , yeah . project manager: um . um . industrial designer: they make mountain bikes out of that , do n't they . so it 's really light as well . project manager: curious . um , i do n't know if you 'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ? industrial designer: um . t yeah . project manager: um could you maybe draw something ? i you do n't does n't have to be perfect , it 's just 'cause i 'm not quite sure if i understand the difference between the two . industrial designer: uh . well for a curved , well i was thinking to f for to sit in your the palm of your hand . uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . joystick here . and maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . um i do n't exactly double curved . it probably means this is probably double curved . uh whereas a single curved would be like that . i guess . or not necessarily . project manager: so it might literally just be marketing: two curves . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah like that . whereas this is two curves . um so i guess that 's what they mean by uh double curve . project manager: alright . industrial designer: um which obviously it looks better than the single curve , but uh you ca n't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com p_c_s . uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wan na use lcd it 's even more expensive . so you have to decide , there 's trade-offs there . um if you want the buttons to be oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it 's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . but you 're gon na ha i reckon you 're gon na have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . you would n't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . you wan na enter just the number of it , if you know it . so um i reckon we 're gon na have to have a number keypad anyway . do you think ? project manager: okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . um so you 've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ? industrial designer: yeah . so , depends where gon na spend the money if you want the f fancy lcd display . project manager: um , do you have any idea so far , like when we 're saying that we 'd need an advanced chip for an lcd , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? or ? marketing: need an advanced chip for the lcd . is that did i project manager: well i think compared to say just pressing buttons . industrial designer: yep . marketing: advanced , like three eight six advance . project manager: if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas i think if we 're controlling the lcd we definitely require a much more powerful chip . just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons i think is the the point being made . marketing: okay . okay , sure . user interface: mm . project manager: if i 've not over-stepped . yeah ? industrial designer: yeah i project manager: okay , um should i go on , or go back ? industrial designer: um marketing: mm , if we only have twelve pounds fifty , twelve euros , not even twelve pounds . twelve euros , what 's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine pounds ? project manager: well we 'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . i assume . marketing: okay , that 's good point . project manager: we have to look into the costs of those . so , sorry . industrial designer: uh the previous slides just explain what 's in the internal components of the uh remote control . if you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the tv . uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it 'll send it to the tr the amplifier . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . so that 's just how the control works inside . um we have to decide on what buttons we 're gon na use . project manager: okay . industrial designer: . project manager: um . . so in the information that you 've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an lcd looks ? industrial designer: um i think we can do it if uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . um and then maybe use single curved uh case . because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . um and then you 'll need the advanced chip obviously for the lcd . project manager: um i mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . um conventional battery would seem to make sense . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um i 'm not sure if there 's any cost differences between single and double curved and i 'm i do n't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? . user interface: mm . um i 'm actually gon na be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons i 'll go into uh in more detail . project manager: okay . marketing: i also have a preference for rubber . project manager: okay , well um marketing: based on my research . project manager: yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and user interface: . project manager: yeah ? um sorry , user interface: mm . project manager: as long as were you ? yeah . okay . industrial designer: yep i 'm finished . project manager: um and d d d interface concept . user interface: yep . now i 'm gon na have to work between the uh the slides and the uh and the white board project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause i actually i have some fairly concrete things this time . uh um i was given a an h_t_m_l_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . i was n't very impressed by them and they did n't seem to re uh nothing i saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we 're going for today . um so what i ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we 've already decided on , um so that if r a if so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . um so uh next slide , if you please . um and what we 've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the lcd , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . i do n't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um v via via the lcd is one where you scroll through channels , so if there 's something f and be bear in mind since this is n't meant to work for um marketing: digital . user interface: f f f for di for digital or um or for or for cable , whatever , industrial designer: ah , okay . user interface: you 're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your v_c_ uh and then the channel through your v_c_r_ and or d_v_d_ player . and or um box . so it 's not i 'm not really excessively concerned about that . you must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick 's uh left right left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . um now the reason i was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we 're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . um , so you project manager: can i just jump in slightly there ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: that would suggest the double curved design 's probably going to be most appropriate , then . user interface: yes , absolutely . project manager: okay . user interface: um , basi basically what i basically what the what be having um , i would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you 're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the l_c_ the lcd and the uh the joystick would be in the right place . and also this is a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the the um you know the whole thing you know it should have sort of organic feel to it project manager: mm . user interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . um okay project manager: okay . user interface: on to on to the next uh to the next slide . project manager: um , yeah . just to let you know we 'll probably be quite tight for time as well , user interface: okay . project manager: because i think you 've probably got a lot you 'd like to say , i guess . user interface: yeah , 'kay basically um i can add pretty pictures to this . the um assuming the hand the hand to be in about sort of this position , um hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it 's directly accessible for the thumb . um and it would need t there would need to be a it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . so . you then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . you just have big two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . um , and that marketing: is this the joystick ? user interface: th this part here is the joystick . this would be the actual grip . probably where you 'd want to have the battery as well . marketing: okay . user interface: that would be probably the bulkiest part . and you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the lcd , and this would need to be articulated as well . and basically i 'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . so it would fit just nicely in the hand . and again , this part could be rotated , so it can so so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . um so the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . and then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . um now programming it actually thi this is one thing i 've found with um the replacement remote control . programming them can be a right pain . so i thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some some fair iv fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you on your computer just so that you could um pr program it at a rather in a rather more comfortable interface . and you could download programs for it from uh for uh tvs from all sort of main manufacturers . um though you i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who do n't have them yet . um . but uh . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: that 's that 's my idea . project manager: okay . excellent , right . um uh . marketing: mm . 'kay . project manager: file open . marketing: we go . project manager: trend watching . marketing: okay . so uh to gather my research , two basic methods . we compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . and then we we research uh fashion trends in europe , what 's what 's the new black , project manager: okay . marketing: you know , as it goes . next slide please . uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . as in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that 's a bonus , but they do n't care so much , you know . they want it to be that 's sounds a bit like a contradiction . technology technical technologically innovative . people want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . so like the interface is really important . and easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important i mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . people want it i is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it 's difficult to use , prefer it to have the newest features . and if it 's easy to use that 's a bonus . the fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . how that relates to a remote control i do n't know . project manager: marketing: but i i see i come on to that in the next in the next slide . spongy . i 've als i 've been saying everything 's the new black . well spongy 's the new black as well . so we have the choice between rubber and plastic . if it 's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it 's spongy , then can i skip the rest ? industrial designer: oh yeah , i forgot to mention that . the uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber . marketing: okay . okay , so industrial designer: forgot to say that . marketing: kinda spongy material . project manager: okay . marketing: so um so my personal opinion ? um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . but what we what we need is something that looks like it 's from the future that looks cool , that 's that 's different , you know , that 's everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . like , titanium is cool but it 's expensive . and maybe it 's a bit of overkill for a remote control . um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . um i mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for it 's the up to the interface guy . so if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we 're gon na go along with it then it does n't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . it could be something like , i say potato peeler but i 'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than i do . so i think cool is the key . few questions about a spongy remote control . i 've never seen one before . i 've seen plastic remote controls . i think maybe they were i do n't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: sturdy , you know . for being strong and sturdy . so um if we want something strong and sturdy , i say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it does n't matter , it 's spongy material , it 's not gon na break , you know . i just do n't know how the l_e_d_ and the lights are gon na fit into a spongy material because it 's not gon na be completely squeezable . so how do things fit it ? and if we are gon na use spongy , we can say it 's long lasting , you know it 's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . so just to summarise , people want stuff that 's cool , that 's that looks like it 's cool , and if it is cool then that 's a bonus does n't have to be um people like fruit and veg . we can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . people like spongy material . if we 're gon na use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . and also , this was this year . so , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . well next year something else is gon na be the new black project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and we 're stuck with last year 's fruit and veg type stuff . project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . that 's me . project manager: well , um i would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year 's lead on most people anyway . you always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that 's possibly a good place to start anyway . um . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so i do n't exactly what cost would be incurred . um i can see your point about the number keypad , but i 've i would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: my feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um boxes as well um having the use of the lcd and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be user interface: yeah , actually if you 've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau it 's you know if you 're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number 's the discovery channel or whatever . it 's just irritating . marketing: that 's a good point . user interface: but if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you can incorporate names into the menu . okay . user interface: so you project manager: okay . marketing: even news , music . like they do on uh sky digital kinda . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so what it looks like to me is we 'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . um looks like we going for a double curved design . um i do n't know what cost implications there are in that . um , looks like we 're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . though i 'd have to say depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame . user interface: yeah , i i would say definitely , i mean i mean i mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . w um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . so project manager: do you think there 's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? i can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: that would be a worry of mine . industrial designer: if you 're going with the fruit and veg thing , looks like a banana . user interface: i d i do n't thi i do n't think that it would be a a structural weakness , marketing: . industrial designer: f if you wan na design it that way . marketing: user interface: i mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . if you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and i think would look rather co i mean mi rather cool . i mean my drawing there does n't does n't do it justice , it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control , project manager: user interface: but uh . project manager: yeah , we wo n't add that functionality . user interface: marketing: okay . course not . industrial designer: project manager: however , one interesting point is , i do n't know how serious you were there , but we if we take some of the ideas why do n't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: sure , yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's an certainly a different colour from your average um user interface: make it harder to lose , as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's true . marketing: sure . project manager: was there anything in your research marketing: the noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: y you know , you lose the monkey the banana , industrial designer: monkey . project manager: marketing: y you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana . user interface: i th uh i mean if it i think that 's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . um . marketing: s oh , i was gon na talk about the programmable remote control . now i think it 'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all tvs , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but why you 'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , i i do n't know . user interface: well basi basically the um for f for uh i mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that uh the tv responds to . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not simply a matter of frequency . marketing: yeah . user interface: so um usually what 's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you 'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you 'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and try the different codes that marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: come under that manufacturer 's name 'til you find the right one . marketing: that 's because televisions , they do n't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it . user interface: yeah , that 's right . marketing: okay . user interface: so that 's that 's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . but if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you 've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing . project manager: an interesting point is that if the person does n't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the lcd user interface: yeah . project manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um different actual units that have been produced . user interface: yeah . project manager: or we have the remote control just go through them until it 's like does this do the correct function , and such . marketing: is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ? user interface: um booklet . some pages . marketing: i was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . this person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so user interface: yeah . project manager: does n't have to be used very often marketing: once every s project manager: that 's right , yeah . marketing: yeah , user interface: yeah . but it 's a but it 's a nuisance . marketing: and it 's user interface: and it 's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it 's something that you 're likely to be thinking about . marketing: mm . user interface: if you if there 's w i if there 's one in the shop that 's that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . um mm . marketing: mm . project manager: okay , this just to give us a rough idea of what we 're meant to be doing for the next stage . marketing: mm . project manager: i 'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . this is the conceptual one . um . i think we 've come up i think we 've covered everything we need to here . um i think we 've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we 're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . um so for example , um i 'll just start at the top , you 've got yourself and the industrial designer gon na be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it 'll be hard not to , obviously . um looking from prototyping of some des description using clay . um i suppose you 'll be told a lot more about that as uh progress . um the user interface design , they 're kind of it looks they 're the idea i 've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the lcd 's going to incorporate , do you think ? user interface: mm . project manager: or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? user interface: um well i i think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made , i would say . um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that 's gon na vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . so um and one of the nice things about having an lcd and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it . project manager: mm-hmm , that 's very true . um . okay . um got product evaluation as well . um . marketing: yeah , you see i do n't some of these things kinda logically follow the others . how can t product evaluation , does n't that come after actually seen a product prototype . project manager: i i think we 'd be yeah , no , it 'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with . marketing: oh , that 's the okay , sure sure sure . project manager: um so it 'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which i suppose is quite similar . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? um marketing: okay , sure . at this stage we still have no no target audience or project manager: i think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um the reason i 'm saying that is we 're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that 's stylish , so maybe you 're even just maybe you 're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying marketing: and it 's stylish . project manager: if they 're buying it that often or they 're maybe looking to replace something then , they 've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow . marketing: mm . project manager: although of course i mean at twenty five euros , i do n't think we 're looking at charging the earth for the uh device . marketing: yep . okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: think that 's well within the normal bracket . um your idea of the u_s_b_ would i think would largely depend on the cost . u_s_b_ 's definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . that one might have to be based on marketing: programmable memory as well . industrial designer: the u_s_b_ for which ? marketing: for the remote control . project manager: the the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the p_c_ for a larger programming industrial designer: oh right , okay . project manager: due to the fact that we 've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . um . marketing: we 've w definitely talking some type of industrial designer: but did n't they just say it 's just for tv , or are we gon na project manager: it 's just for tv , but for marketing: different . project manager: programming it to use your tv , you might hook it up to the p_c_ . industrial designer: okay , yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure , but i 'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the u_s_b_ might be prohibitive . user interface: mm . project manager: we do n't know unless it would make sense to . user interface: yeah , marketing: but you 're gon na need some type of flash memory or something . user interface: i mean it 's marketing: well something that does n't user interface: yeah . marketing: you would n't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power . user interface: yeah . the other thing i mean it i mean it would need to ha it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway . marketing: yeah . user interface: um f for one for one thing because i do think that the menu system should be um uh i mean although you know , it 's not going to be terribly complicated if it 's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh marketing: different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that . project manager: mm-hmm . w user interface: mm-hmm . how uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you 've got lots of channels . that sort of thing . marketing: sure . i if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open it is supposed to be international , right ? so . project manager: it would make sense to . i would say to . marketing: it would make sense if you could project manager: um and we 'd better be careful about the time as well . we 've already had the five minute warning , marketing: okay . project manager: so . um . i would say yeah . international would make sense . um you 're gon na look at product evaluation . i 'm i 'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . um you 're gon na look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say . user interface: yeah . project manager: um looks like we 're gon na need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . uh we 'll see how that goes . um . user interface: are we going to be supplied with the clay is what i want to know . project manager: so um user interface: where is the clay ? marketing: project manager: do i think we 've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ? marketing: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they 're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber . marketing: the fruit and veg . this one . user interface: mm . i th i think i would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing . project manager: yeah , i would s that would be my my feeling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: bu but um but the spongy idea i like . i like it a lot . project manager: we seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: i having it i having it sort of br bright yellow i think that 's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . marketing: yeah . user interface: and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose . marketing: sure . i mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wan na keep the company brand as well , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: so . project manager: so we always need to remember that somewhere we 're meant to be getting the slogan on . possibly i 'm think i 'm not sure but i 'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . um . user interface: mm . yeah . i was like like i said before i i think we should have the r_r_ on the uh on the top function button . project manager: okay . and i think that says it all really . marketing: i think so too . project manager: right . marketing: sa project manager: see everybody in a half hour . </s> [SEP]what did project manager think of the target market group when discussing details on the new remote control style and the plan for the next meeting ?

project manager mentioned the target market group because the team would make a product evaluation on the next meeting . project manager implied that the team should consider a younger age bracket , for they were most likely to be the group that owned enough free cash , and was , at the same time , prone to replace their remote controls .

summarize the meeting[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]summarize the meeting

meeting participants began by going over the logistics of recruiting participants , particularly through departmental mailing lists . they then moved onto discussing a new role , the instructor , who would help experimental participants figure out their intentions . this would eliminate a pre-written set of goals for the participants . participants also discussed how the schema would incorporate other information , like choosing movies , and how more complex actions , like that of purchasing goods , could be incorporated into the source-path-goal schema . finally , the participants concluded that an spg schema of a different kind , one that can transfer previously acquired information , may be more helpful . the meeting concluded with the discussion of a new meeting time .

summarize the discussion about capturing the intention of subjects[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about capturing the intention of subjects

the new system for collecting subject intention focused on allowing subjects to come up with the intent themselves . instead of giving them a list of goals , the subjects would , with the help of an instructor , figure out what they want to do in the environment . the earlier interaction with the instructor would give them a sense of how specific their goals in the environment could be . another idea was to use pictures for people to help determine their intention , but the manufacturing of pictures seemed to be a very intensive project .

what did grad c think about capturing subject intention ?[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]what did grad c think about capturing subject intention ?

grad c introduced the topic and explained that the new idea was to allow subjects to generate high level tasks , like going shopping , by themselves . subjects would also be provided a high level schematic which would give them basic features of the environment . though , the schematic would not contain detailed information , like a street map , which would be reserved for interactions with the wizard . an instructor would be hired to help subjects navigate the high level tasks .

what did grad g think about capturing the subject intention ?[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]what did grad g think about capturing the subject intention ?

grad g learned that the materials would be based on real materials about heidelberg and that the instructor would allow subjects to get a feel for the system 's capabilities . grad g also learned that the interactions would be more natural .

summarize the discussion about designing the new spg schema based on a more flexible organization[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about designing the new spg schema based on a more flexible organization

the team wanted to figure out how roles would be connected to actions . the thought that their current xml schema forced the model to look up , requiring the whole body of the model . the new idea they came up with was to create a parallel intention oriented specification in addition to the pure schema , which would allow for a more flexible schema .

what did grad c think about the spg schema ?[SEP] <s>grad g: time . grad c: thanks . grad g: are you fey ? undergrad d: i am fey , yeah . grad g: oh . grad b: what day is today ? undergrad d: hi . grad g: hi . i think we 've met before , like , i remember talking to you about aspect or something like that at some point or other . undergrad d: a couple times yeah . grad f: it 's the uh twenty nineteenth . grad b: nineteenth ? undergrad d: that 's right , yeah . grad g: so . undergrad d: and you were my gsi briefly , until i dropped the class . grad f: grad b: right , right . grad g: oh that 's right . undergrad d: but . grad g: well . grad c: ok , wh wh grad g: no offense . grad c: yeah . grad g: like . grad c: ok . some in some introductions are in order . grad g: oh , ok sorry . grad c: ok . grad g: getting ahead of myself . grad c: so . um . for those who do n't know everyone knows me , this is great . um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , johno and bhaskara have been with us from from day one grad g: yay ! grad e: hi . grad c: and um they 're engaged in in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type , phd a: well . grad e: oh wow . grad c: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . is that a good characterization ? phd a: u that 's pretty good , i think . grad c: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . thanks . grad c: ok . keith is not technically one of us yet , grad e: not yet . grad c: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now . grad g: `` one of us . `` grad c: so . grad e: yeah right . i 've got the headset on after all . grad c: um . officially i guess he will be joining us in the summer . grad e: yes . grad c: and um hopefully it is by by means of keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . additionally his interest um surpasses um english because it also entails german , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . and um , is there anyone who does n't know nancy ? do you do you know nancy ? grad g: me ? grad e: i know nancy . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: i made that joke already , nancy , sadly . grad c: ok . grad g: what ? grad b: the `` i do n't know myself `` joke . grad g: you did ? when ? grad b: uh before you came in . grad g: oh . grad e: man ! grad g: about me or you ? grad b: about me . grad g: ok . ok . phd a: you could do it about you . grad b: yeah . grad g: well i did n't know . i did n't mean to be humor copying , but ok , sorry . yes , i know myself . it 's ok . grad c: ok . grad g: it 's a grad c: and um fey is with us as of six days ago officially ? undergrad d: officially , grad c: officially , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection um , grad g: of oz . undergrad d: it 's very exciting . grad c: we 're sticking with the term `` wizard `` , undergrad d: yes . grad c: ok . undergrad d: yes . grad c: and um grad g: not witch - like . grad b: wizardette . grad e: wizard . grad f: wizardess . grad c: sorceress , i think . grad g: ok . undergrad d: wizard . grad c: wizard uh by by popular vote grad g: ok . grad c: um grad g: did n't take a vote ? ok . grad c: ok , um , why do n't we get started on that subject anyways . um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . when will we three meet again ? and um grad g: more than three of us . grad c: what happened is that um , `` a `` , { comment } there was some confusion between you and jerry with the that leading to your talking to catherine snow , and he was uh he he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . it it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s grad e: the list of majors in the department ? undergrad d: m m majors ? grad c: ma - majors , majors . undergrad d: majors ? grad c: `` mayors `` . undergrad d: ok , mayor grad c: majors . undergrad d: something i do n't know about these grad g: the department has many mayors . grad c: majors and um just sending the the little write - up that we did on to those email lists undergrad d: ok . ok . yeah , yeah , yeah . but yeah . grad c: uh undergrad d: so it was really carol snow who was confused , not me and not jerry . grad c: yep , yep , yep . ok . so . so , that is uh undergrad d: that 's good . so i should still do that . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: and undergrad d: and using the thing that you wrote up . grad c: yep . undergrad d: ok . grad c: wonderful . and um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that that what what you just signed grad g: right . grad c: and since we have one already um grad g: did jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ? grad c: um well he said um we definitely `` yes `` , grad g: e grad c: however there is always more people in a in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment grad g: yeah . grad c: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all . grad g: ok , but th i guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so than the c is the cogsci department that you were talking about ? undergrad d: i guess . see grad g: uh reaching out to ? undergrad d: that 's what i suggested to him , that people like like jerry and george and et cetera just grad g: cuz we have you know people from other areas grad c: yeah . grad g: advertise in their classes as well . undergrad d: yeah or even i could you know i could do the actual grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: cuz i mean i i know how to contact our students , undergrad d: that 's generally the way it 's done . grad g: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy , grad c: yeah . grad g: me or bhaskara could either of us could post it to uh is it undergrad d: a mailing list . grad g: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . undergrad d: yeah . grad g: so . grad c: do it . yeah . undergrad d: that 's grad g: ok , so you 'll send it or something so . grad c: as a matter of fact , if you undergrad d: i can send it . grad c: if undergrad d: i 'll send it , grad g: you can send it to me . grad c: now , i undergrad d: yeah . grad g: ok . do n't worry , we this does n't concern you anymore , robert . grad c: how however i suggest that if you if you look at your email carefully you may think you may find that you already have it . grad g: it 's fine . oops . already ? really ? grad c: maybe . undergrad d: probab grad g: oops . grad c: ok . w we 'll see . grad g: i do n't remember getting anything . grad c: anyhow , um the uh yeah , not only also we will talk about linguistics and of course computer science . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them , grad b: right . grad c: and so we had a meeting on friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it 's getting more complicated . so if you know anyone interested in in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to to write a mail to me or jerry soon , fast . um the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` um `` take in uh a batch of art `` um `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific um o { comment } um entities and real world places you will find in heidelberg . and um . so out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide `` ok , i wan na do that at this place `` , sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects . and so , the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah yeah i wanted to go shopping here `` and `` i wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe um eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system , ie { comment } fey , and um and we 're gon na try out that any questions ? grad g: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: but they will um there 's nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they 'll say `` well these are the things i want to do `` and right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ? grad c: hopefully . grad g: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so they 'll be given this map , which means that they wo n't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? grad c: yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . so it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the that information and an grad g: it w it does n't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way grad c: n not not not really the street network . nuh . grad g: ok . grad e: so you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? grad c: yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have get it sort of isolated street the the , whatever , `` river street `` , and they know that they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange german names . and then we 're going to have another we 're gon na have w another trial run ie the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is ron kay for who those who know him , he 's the founder of ici . so he 'll he 's around seven seventy years old , or something . grad g: i did n't know he was the founder . that 's ok . grad c: and he also approached me and he offered to help um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and i said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` ok `` . so that 's what 's gon na happen , tomorrow , data . grad g: using this new new um plan , grad c: new new set up . grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . which i 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t but , thanks to fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and i can work with that . questions ? comments on that ? if not , we can move on . no ? no more questions ? grad e: i 'm not sure i totally understand this grad g: so what 's the s this is what you made , fey ? grad c: hmm ? grad e: but i 'm not sure i totally understand everything that 's being talked about grad g: like so so it 's just based on like the materials you had about heidelberg . grad c: um are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? grad e: but i i imagine i 'll c just catch on . undergrad d: based on the web site , yeah , at the grad g: oh ok there 's a web site grad c: experiment ? undergrad d: right . grad g: and then you could like um figure out what the cate undergrad d: it 's a tourist information web site , grad e: uh , this is where they 're supposed to undergrad d: so . grad g: ok . grad c: talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on . grad g: ok . grad e: yeah . yeah . grad c: the question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task . grad e: ok . ok . ok . grad c: because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat , { comment } or as much as they can , of that phrasing . grad e: ok . grad g: hmm . um , are you worried about being able to identify grad e: ok . grad g: um . the the goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so it 's like the enter versus view grad c: yeah , we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: right ? that 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things grad g: uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and so th the q first question for the subject is , `` so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . is there anything that interests you ? `` grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and the person can say `` yeah , sure sh this is something i would do . i would go shopping `` . yeah ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well , uh then you you may want to find out how to get over here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because this is where the shopping district is `` . grad g: so the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? grad c: no . just sort of ok , what what what would you like to buy and then um ok there you wan na buy a whatever cuckoos clocks grad g: yeah . grad c: ok and the there is a store there . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: that 's sort of what 's left . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock . grad g: ok , that 's what i mean so like those tasks are all gon na be um unambiguous about which of the three modes . grad c: hopefully . grad g: right . ok . so . phd a: well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words . grad c: hopefully . grad g: t that they 'll be here ? grad c: yes . in a sense that 's exactly the the the idea , phd a: uh uh grad c: which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation , phd a: well , u u the one experiment th that that that i 've read somewhere , it was they u used pictures . grad c: nuh ? phd a: so to to uh actually um uh specify the the tasks . grad c: yep . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: uh , but you know i i grad c: yeah . we had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we uh i even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and and and there 's a person looking at pictures . so , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures . phd a: right . grad c: however , not only was the common census were among all participants of friday 's meeting was it 's gon na be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things , phd a: right . grad c: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . so all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there . phd a: right . grad c: and people talking about pictures and pictorial representations grad e: hmm . grad c: and um phd a: right . grad c: i would s i would still be willing to try it . phd a: i mean , i i 'm i 'm not saying it 's necessary but but uh i uh uh i you might be able to combine you know text uh and and some sort of picture and also uh i think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: so that they are not uh guided by by by what you wrote , grad c: we will phd a: but can come up with their with their own grad c: yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room . phd a: right . grad c: ok . then i suggest we move on to the to we have um uh the edu project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the smartkom parser and the other one is modifying the smartkom natural language generation module . and um this is not too complicated but i 'm just mentioning it put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . um , i have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ? grad f: um , not grad c: by that look i grad f: yes , uh , i would really p it would be better if i talked about it on friday . grad c: ok . grad f: if that 's ok . grad c: yeah , wonderful . um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ? grad f: yeah . but not not any time part . grad c: ok , so that 's good . that 's better than running into problems . grad f: ok . grad c: and um i i do have some good news for the natural language generation however . and the good news is i guess it 's done . uh , meaning that tilman becker , who does the german one , actually took out some time and already did it in english for us . and so the version he 's sending us is already producing the english that 's needed to get by in version one point one . grad f: so i take it that was similar to the what what we did for the parsing ? grad c: yeah . i i it even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words , grad f: ok . grad c: but it would have been grad f: ok . grad c: but this this is i guess good news , and the uh the time and especially bhaskara and uh and um oh do i have it here ? no . the time is now pretty much fixed . it 's the last week of april until the fourth of may so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . that they 'll be here . so it 's it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time . grad b: wait , what what are the days ? april twenty - sixth to the may fourth ? grad c: yeah , something like that . grad b: i 'll probably be here . grad c: it 's grad f: yeah . grad e: you will be here . grad c: there is a d is n't finals coming up then pretty much after that ? grad f: finals was that . grad g: yeah w it does n't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might . grad c: ok . grad f: yeah actually , that 's true . grad g: that grad c: anyway , so this is grad b: well i 'll be here working on something . guaranteed , it 's just uh will i be here , you know , in uh i 'll be here too actually but phd a: hmm . grad c: no it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them grad g: ye grad c: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . but uh grad b: but it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here . grad c: just make a not not unless you really really want to . grad e: they 're very dependent grad c: not unless you really want to . and they 're both nice guys so you may may want to . ok , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that . grad g: so , no sample generator output yet ? grad c: no . it just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the the the stuff soon grad g: ok . this is being sent , mm - hmm . ok . grad c: and i was completely flabbergasted here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and i and that 's also it 's it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for necessary for one point one in english based on the english , you know , in english . so . i was like `` ok , grad e: we 're done . grad c: we 're done ! `` grad g: so that was like one of the first l you know , the first task was getting it working for english . so that 's basically over now . is that right ? grad c: yeah . grad g: so the basic requirement fulfilled . grad c: um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . when andreas stolcke and and his gang , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together grad g: mm - hmm . so the speech recognizer also works . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: and you can speak into it and ask for tv and movie information grad e: toll . grad c: and then when if if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done . grad g: mm - hmm . if and they 're kind of correct . grad e: so it 's not done basically . grad c: hmm ? grad g: and they kind of are are correct . grad e: right . perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example . grad g: it 's not just like anything . and they 're mostly in english . so . grad c: then um grad g: are they is it using the database ? the german tv movie . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . so all the actual data might be german names ? grad c: um well actually th um grad g: or are they all like american tv programs ? grad c: um well grad e: i want to see `` die dukes von hazard `` grad c: the ok , so you do n't know how the german dialogue uh the german the demo dialogue actually works . it works the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on tv , and then the person is presented with what 's running on tv in germany on that day , on that evening grad g: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad c: and so you take one look at it and then you say `` well that 's really nothing there 's nothing for me there `` `` what 's running in the cinemas ? `` so maybe there 's something better happening there . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and then you get you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gon na be of course all the heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and most of them are going to be hollywood movies . so , `` american beauty `` is `` american beauty `` , grad g: hmm . grad c: right ? yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: right . grad c: and um . grad g: but they 're shown like on a screen . grad c: n grad g: it 's a i mean so would the generator , like the english language sentence of it is `` these are the follow you know the following films are being shown `` or something like that ? grad c: yeah , but it in that sense it does n't make in that case uh it does n't really make sense to read them out loud . grad g: s right . grad c: if you 're displaying them . grad g: so it 'll just display ok . grad c: but uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in heidelberg and there you go . grad g: so we do n't have to worry about um yeah . grad c: and the presentation agent will go `` hhh ! `` { comment } nuh ? grad g: ok . grad c: like that the avatar . grad g: ok . grad c: and um . and then you pick pick a movie and and and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . so . grad g: ok . grad c: pretty straightforward . grad e: ok . grad c: but it 's so this time we we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the german system to incorporate all these english movie titles . grad g: yeah . grad c: nuh ? but in english , that 's not really a problem , grad g: right . mm - hmm . grad c: unless we get some some topical german movies that have just come out and that are in their database . so the person may select `` huehner rennen `` or whatever . grad g: right . grad e: `` chicken run `` . grad c: ok . then uh on to the modeling . right ? grad b: yeah , yeah , i guess . grad c: um then modeling , there it is . grad b: yep . grad e: ok . what 's the next thing ? grad b: e grad c: this is very rough but this is sort of what um johno and i managed to come up with . the idea here is that grad b: this is the uh s the schema of the xml here , not an example or something like that . grad c: yeah this is not an xml this is sort of towards an a schema , grad e: ok . phd a: right . grad c: nuh ? definition . the idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the source - path - goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: we have a whole library of schemas . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and they 're gon na be , you know , fleshed out in in their real ugly detail , source - path - goal , and there 's gon na be s a lot of stuff on the goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . what we think is and all the names could should be taken `` cum grano salis `` . so . this is a the fact that we 're calling this `` action schema `` right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this `` action schema `` . but what that means is we have here first of all on the in the in the first iteration a stupid list of source - path - goal actions grad b: actions that can be categorized with or that are related to source - path - goal . grad c: wi to that schema grad e: ok . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions . grad b: and then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary . grad c: so a push may be in in in both you know push uh in this or this uh grad g: forced motion and caused action for instance , grad c: exactly . yeah . grad g: ok . grad c: also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . so this is something that , you know , may also be a res as a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a source - path - goal schema , that we need to put in fill in additional structure up there . but it gives us a nice handle . so with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . uh . it it is it was sort of a it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the enter source - path - goal that this but this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . we 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the this is the your basic bone um schema , down there . grad b: uh one question , robert . when you point at the screen is it your shadow that i 'm supposed to look at ? grad g: yeah . it 's the shadow . grad b: ok . whereas i keep looking where your hand is , and it does n't grad c: well , that would n't have helped you at all . grad b: yeah . grad g: right . grad b: basically , what this is is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner grad e: spit right here . grad b: and right now the way the interface is `` action go `` and then they have the what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on . grad g: mm - hmm . grad b: and the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type `` going into `` , goes of type `` want to go to a place where i can take a picture of `` , et cetera . grad c: so this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple `` go `` action from it from an object named `` peter 's kirche `` of the type `` church `` to an object named `` powder - tower `` of the type `` tower `` . right ? grad g: this is the uh what the action planner uses ? grad b: right . currently . grad g: this is ok . grad c: currently . grad g: and is that and tha that 's changeable ? or not ? grad c: yeah , well grad g: like are we adapting to it ? grad c: no . grad g: or grad c: we this is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding , grad g: oh , yeah . grad c: right ? grad g: uh - huh . grad c: the input into the action planning , as it is now . grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: and what we are going to do , we going to and you can see here , and again for johno please please focus the shadow , grad b: ok . grad c: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on on grad g: what did you think he was doing ? grad b: i just grad g: ok , sorry . grad e: a laser pointer would be most appropriate here i think . grad c: yeah i i um have i have no undergrad d: eee . grad b: robert likes to be abstract and that 's what i just thought he was doing . grad g: you look up here . grad c: sort of between here and here , grad g: ok . grad c: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um `` struct `` , if you want , ie a rich action description on that level . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so in the future grad g: so it 's just an additional information grad c: exactly . in the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description , grad g: right ? that does n't hurt the current way . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: which which we 're abbreviating as `` rad `` . grad c: which is grad g: good . grad e: rad ! grad g: hmm . grad f: so um you had like an action schema and a source - path - goal schema , grad g: hmm . hmm . mm - hmm . grad f: right ? so how does this source - path - goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? like is it one of the tags there ? grad g: yeah can you go back to that one ? grad b: so the source - path - goal schema in this case , i 've if i understand how we described we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the the well in this case it will hold the i mean the the features i guess . i 'm not it 's hard for me to exactly s so basically that will store the the object that is w the source will store the object that we 're going from , the goal will store the the f grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so the fillers of the role source . grad b: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ? grad g: ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: the s action - schemas basically have extra see we so those are schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which which is just one thing we we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that that we need to exploit . grad g: ok , so th sorry i just do n't kn um um um this is just uh xml mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit grad b: that 's a block , yeah . grad g: that 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ? grad c: no , no , no . grad g: is that grad c: source is just not spelled out here . source meaning source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality , grad g: oh , ok , ok . grad c: maybe canonical uh orientation grad g: uh - huh , uh - huh . ok could it it could also be blocked out then as grad b: yeah , the so grad g: ok . grad b: yeah . grad c: s source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in source . grad g: ok . grad c: but it 's independent whether we are using the spg schema in an enter , view , or approach mode , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: this is just properties of the spg { comment } schema . we can talk about paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or or and the trajector should be coming in there as well . grad g: ok . grad c: and then g the same about goals . grad g: ok . so i guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? those are it 's gon na be one y you 'll pick one of those for grad b: right . grad g: ok these are this is just a layout of the possible that could go play that role . grad b: right , so the the the roles will be filled in with the schema grad c: hmm ? grad g: ok , go it . uh - huh . grad b: and then what actual a action is chosen is will be in the in the action schema section . grad g: ok . ok . s s ok , so one question . this was in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the enter , view and approach as each having their roles , right ? the i mean it 's it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general source - path - goal specific roles . so are we worrying about that or not for now ? grad c: yes , yes . since you bring it up now , we will worry about it . grad g: ok . grad c: tell us more about it . grad g: ok . grad c: what do you what do you grad g: what 's that ? oh i guess it i i may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that i 've always viewed things grad c: hmm . grad e: hmm . grad g: and that that may or may not be what you guys intended . but if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what x - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're grad e: so very specific role names are `` viewed thing `` , `` entered thing `` grad g: whatever , you know , that which are think think of enter , view and approach as frames grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . grad g: and they have frame - specific parameters and and roles grad c: yeah . grad g: and you can also describe them in a general way as source - path - goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad g: or how do they work in f terms of other things . so all of those have um basically f either specific frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . so the question is are um how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . so we know for enter that there 's container potentially involved grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and it 's not uh i do n't know if you wan na have in the same level as the action schema spg schema it it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the source - path - goal um you know goal uh goal i guess in this case . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: so uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things grad c: yeah . grad g: and i di do n't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just grad b: the wa was n't there supposed to be a link in the grad f: right . grad b: i do n't know if this answers your question , i was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry . grad g: it 's ok . grad b: uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could grad c: yeah . um , well that 's that 's one one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from from the schema up to the s action um description of it . grad g: hmm . grad c: but the notion i got from nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f `` enter `` frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the the s source - path - goal schema , grad g: exactly . right , right . grad c: and do we have means of of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely . grad g: right . grad c: the way we absolutely have those means that are even part of the m - three - l a api , grad g: yeah . oh great . s uh - huh . grad c: meaning we can reference . so meaning grad g: great . that 's exactly what is necessary . grad b: yeah . st grad c: and um . this referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the w - three - c will be finished with their x - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: ok . grad c: and and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework . grad g: so you know happen to know how what what `` sooner or later `` means like in practice ? grad c: that 's but it 's soon . grad g: or estimated . ok , ok . grad c: so it 's g it 's the spec is there and it 's gon na part of the m - three - l ap api filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . but this is a technical detail . grad g: mm - hmm . so a pointer a way to really say pointers . grad b: basically references from the roles in the schema the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh i 'm assuming . grad g: yeah . ok , yeah . grad c: yeah . yeah , i mean personally , i 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have x forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the spg action up there is enter , then the goal type can never be a statue . grad g: ok . uh - huh . right . grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: so you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . w yeah e exactly . um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the statue of liberty , grad g: uh - huh . grad c: however it is uh you know sort of these sort of things are imaginable . grad e: right . grad g: tsk . yeah . grad c: yeah ? grad f: s so um , like are you gon na have similar schemas for fm grad g: or the gateway arch in st . grad c: yeah . grad g: louis . so . grad f: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for spg ? grad c: yeah . grad f: and if so like can are you able to enforce that you know if if it 's if it 's spg action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the grad c: um we have absolute no . we have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an spg action `` enter `` and no spg schema , but a forced action schema . could happen . grad g: whi - which is not bad , because i mean , that there 's multiple sens i mean that particular case , there 's mult there there 's a forced side of of that verb as well . grad c: hmm . it maybe it means we had nothing to say about the source - path - goal . grad f: ok . grad c: what 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel . grad f: right . grad c: and um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when i say `` is there a bakery here ? `` you know i do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system `` hey this person actually wants to go there `` and `` b `` , { comment } that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . nuh ? and if these are two different schemas , ie the source - path - goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? grad g: would they both be listed here in grad c: yes . grad g: ok . under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both both things . grad b: right . grad c: ye yeah , they they would both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is is there a `` buying s snacks `` schema ? grad e: snack action . grad g: that 's interesting . grad c: what is the uh have grad g: what ? grad c: the buying snack schema ? grad e: see . undergrad d: buying buying his food grad e: i 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere . grad g: oop . i d f grad c: yeah , a `` commercial event `` or something . grad g: yeah i i grad c: yeah ? so uh so we would we would instantiate the spg schema with a source - path - goal blah - blah - blah grad g: i see . grad c: and the buying event you know at which however that looks like , the place f thing to buy . grad g: uh - huh . uh - huh . interesting . would you say that the like i mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure . grad c: yeah . now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata grad g: uh i i think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh grad c: um well , for me it seems that uh r yes . grad g: i mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose . grad c: well , if i 'm if i 'm recipient of such a message and i get a source - path - goal where the goal is a bakery and then i get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and and and they they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here . grad g: uh - huh . yeah . see that that bothers me that they 're the same thing . grad c: no , no , just the yeah ? grad g: yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second . grad c: yeah , yeah ! grad g: right . yeah , yeah . so . so . ok . so there 's like levels of granularity . so uh there 's there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . and they 're independently they they are events which have very different characters as far as source - path - goal whatever . grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: so when you identify source - path - goal and whatever , there 's gon na to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in in nice ways . so it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know from the other but you know that 's just that 's just me . grad c: well , i think we 're gon na hit a lot of interesting problems grad g: like i i grad c: and as i prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing about it grad g: mm - hmm . between you guys grad b: yeah . grad g: uh grad c: and um and so grad g: ok . grad e: yeah i mean i i still am not entirely sure that i really fully grasp the syntax of this . grad b: well it 's not it 's not actually a very actually , it does n't actually grad c: um it occur it occurs to me that i mean ne grad e: you know , like what right . or the intended interpretation of this . grad c: um well i should have we should have added an ano an xml example , grad e: yeah . grad c: or some xml examples grad e: yeah . grad g: yeah that would be that would be nice . grad c: and and this is on on a on on my list of things until next next week . grad e: ok . grad c: it 's also a question of the recursiveness and and a hier hierarchy um in there . grad g: yeah . yeah . grad c: do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? i mean it 's if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , i mean , then we 're already pretty good , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: right ? phd a: well well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh i mean many actions presuppose some um almost infinitely many other actions . so if you go to a bakery you have a general intention of uh not being hungry . grad g: yeah . mayb - yeah . phd a: you have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there . grad e: yeah . grad g: mm - hmm . phd a: you have a further specific intentions to left to lift your right foot grad c: hmm ? phd a: and so uh uh i mean y you really have to focus on on on grad g: right . phd a: and decide the level of of abstraction that that you aim at it kind of zero in on that , grad c: yeah . grad g: right . phd a: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that that you want to constant draw from from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh i mean but very difficult . grad g: m th the other thing that i just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som phd a: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: you know so you like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right . grad b: well the the the utterance was `` is there a bakery around here ? `` , grad g: but having them separate grad b: not `` i want to go to a bakery . `` grad g: well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area . phd a: right . grad g: and i 'm , yeah i 'm i 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely , phd a: right . grad b: sure it ok . yeah . grad g: but yeah i mean like but it 's still the case that um you could you could override that default by giving extra information grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad g: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of `` ok they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here `` , grad c: yeah . grad g: which is direct . grad c: well there there there should never be a hard coded uh shortcut from the bakery question to the uh double schema thing , grad g: right . grad c: how uh and , as a matter of fact , when i have traveled with my friends we make these exactly these kinds of appointments . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: we o o grad e: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah . exactly . it 's i met someone at the bakery you know in the victoria station t you know train station london before , phd a: right . grad e: mm - hmm . yep . phd a: well . i have a question about the slot of the spg action . grad g: yeah . it 's like phd a: so the enter - view - approach the the the eva um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . every action of this kind will have a choice . or or or or will it just um uh is it change grad e: every spg every spg action either is an enter or a view or an approach , phd a: right , right . grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? phd a: so so i i mean for for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about . grad e: ok . phd a: it can be either a , b or c . um . so is it a fixed number or or do you leave it open it could be between one and fifteen uh it 's it 's it 's flexible . grad c: um , the uh well , it sort of depends on on if you actually write down the the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . however the uh it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not . grad g: j do you mean within the source - path - goal actions ? phd a: uh ye uh uh b i uh i u i understand grad c: yeah . grad g: those three ? phd a: uh but grad c: and um how how where is the end ? so that 's phd a: no , no . there a a actually by i think my question is simpler than that , um is ok , so you have an spg action and and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or or approach it and touch it or something . um now you define uh another action , it 's it 's called um uh s s p g - one grad c: forced action or forced motion . yeah . phd a: action a different action . um and this uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . and i in in a way similar to either enter - view - approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . so , h grad b: oh the ok uh maybe i 'd the uh these actions i do n't know if i 'm gon na answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , spg action is a category . real although i think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions `` enter , view and approach `` would fall into because they have a related source - path - goal schema in our tourist domain . cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this in a phd a: right . oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that that is built elsewhere . grad b: derived i do n't know if i u grad e: this is a cate this a category structure here , grad b: right . grad e: right ? action schema . what are some types of action schemas ? well one of the types of action schemas is source - path - goal action . and what are some types of that ? and an enter , a view , an approach . grad b: right . grad c: hmm . grad e: those are all source - path - goal actions . grad b: inside of enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . so if i want to go from outside to inside then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a source - path - goal set of roles . so you 'd the source would be outside and path is to the door or whatever , right ? phd a: right . grad b: so if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . then this category would we would put it or not necessarily we would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that in which it has the um well , every action has a set of related schemas like source - path - goal or force , whatever , right ? grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: right . grad b: so we would put `` write a letter `` in the categories uh that in which it had it w had uh schemas u grad e: there could be a communication event action or something like that grad b: exactly . grad c: mm - hmm . grad b: schemas uh that of that type . grad e: and you could write it . grad b: and then later , you know , there the we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as grad g: hmm . so there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in in which the things that go into a particular you have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . so i guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? i mean i guess i 'm wondering whether you could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gon na be enter , view or approach or whatever number of things grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . and it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy grad c: yeah . grad g: um but if it has if it 's supposed to be categorized in category x then the corresponding schema x will be among the structures that that follow . grad b: right . well , this is one of things we were arguing about . grad c: yeah . grad g: that 's like grad c: th this is this r grad g: ok , sorry . grad c: this is this is more this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to johno i guess grad g: you did n't tell me to grad c: also for a while for grad g: uh - huh . but now you guys have seen the light . grad c: no , no , no . uh we have not we have not seen the light . grad b: no . grad g: so . grad b: the the reason one reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the enter action that 's not captured by the schemas , grad g: i it 's easy to go back and forth is n't it ? uh - huh . i agree . right . right . grad b: right ? grad g: which is why i would think you would say enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to enter . and then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . and that 's why the bindings become useful . grad b: right , but grad e: ri - you 'd like so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or ? grad g: um ye - i see what you mean by that , grad c: no basically w grad g: but i i do n't if i would i would need to have t have that . grad c: get get rid of the sort of spg slash something uh or the sub - actions category , grad g: right . grad c: because what does that tell us ? grad g: uh - huh . yeah . grad c: um and i agree that you know this is something we need to discuss , grad g: i in fact what you could say is for enter , grad c: yeah . grad g: you could say `` here , list all the kinds of schemas that on the category that grad e: list all the parent categories . grad g: you know i list all the parent categories `` . it 's just like a frame hierarchy , grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: like you have these blended frames . so you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there . grad e: yeah . this sounds like a paper i 've read around here recently in terms of grad g: yeah it could be not a coincidence . like i said , i 'm sure i 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that i developed , grad e: yeah . grad g: but i mean you know uh it 's i 'm just telling you what i think , you just hit the button and it 's like grad c: and , i guess fr uh grad e: yeah i mean but there 's a good question here . like , i mean uh do you when do you need damn this headset ! when you this uh , eh grad g: metacomment . grad e: yeah . { comment } that 's all recorded . um . why do you grad g: `` damn this project . `` no just kidding . grad e: i do n't know . like how do i how do i come at this question ? um . i just do n't see why you would i mean does th who uses this uh this data structure ? you know ? like , do you say `` alright i 'm going to uh do an spg action `` . and then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says `` alright , well , i know i want to do a source - path - goal action so what are my choices among that ? `` and `` oh , ok , so i can do an enter - view - approach `` . it 's not like that , right ? it 's more like you say `` i want to , uh i want to do an enter . `` grad b: well only one of grad e: and then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . right ? so that the um the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ? grad b: i 'd i grad g: hmm . grad b: i think i 'd i 'm not sure if i understand your question . only one of those things are gon na be lit up when we pass this on . so only enter will be grad e: ok . grad b: if we if our if our module decided that enter is the case , view and approach will not be there . grad e: ok . ok . grad c: well uh it 's it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting . grad g: yeah . grad c: um nevertheless um grad e: mayb - well maybe i 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to . grad b: well in that case , we ca n't we ca n't w if if grad c: l let 's let 's not grad g: ok . grad b: well the thing is if that 's the case we our i do n't think our system can handle that currently . grad e: what are we doing with this ? grad c: no , not at all . but u s t so grad e: in principle . grad g: `` approach and then enter . `` grad c: the i think the in some sense we we ex get the task done extremely well grad g: run like this uh grad c: because this is exactly the discussion we need need . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: period . no more qualifiers than that . so . grad g: no , this is the useful , grad c: and um and and i th i hope grad g: you know , don do n't worry . grad c: um uh let 's make a a a a sharper claim . we will not end this discussion anytime soon . grad g: yeah , i can guarantee that . grad c: and it 's gon na get more and more complex the the l complexer and larger our domains get . grad e: sigh . grad c: and i think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . so this is nice about being being recorded also . the um grad e: right . undergrad d: that 's true . grad b: the r uh the in terms of why is it 's laid out like this versus some other grad c: the people grad e: yeah . yeah . grad b: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action . grad e: in my view . grad b: because if we know that enter is a t is an spg action , grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: right ? grad e: mm - hmm . grad b: we know to look for an spg schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad g: and you could have also indicated that by saying `` enter , what are the kinds of action i am ? `` grad c: mm - hmm , yeah . grad b: right . grad e: yeah . grad g: right ? so there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? so like unless @ @ are there reasons why one is better than the other i mean that come from other sources ? grad e: again grad c: yes because nobod no the modules do n't grad g: yeah . uh grad c: this is this is a schema that defines xml messages that are passed from one module to another , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then so you always need the whole body of of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . or you always send it along with it , grad g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: nuh ? so you always send up `` here i am i am this person , and i can have these parents `` in every message . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: which e grad g: ok , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it . grad c: it may or may not be a just a pain it 's it 's i 'm completely willing to to to throw all of this away grad g: ok , i understand . grad c: and completely redo it , grad e: well grad c: you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that . grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: i i would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , i mean , just beca cuz i 'm new grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: and i do n't really just i just do n't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it , grad c: yeah . grad e: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this , grad c: yeah , we i will promise for the next time to have fleshed out n { comment } xml examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates , grad e: right ? and ok . grad c: and how this can come about , grad g: be great . grad c: nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` um part . grad e: right . grad c: and um is there more to be said ? i think um in principle what i i think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the enter - view and we all throw up up the ladder um wha how do how does professor peter call that ? grad g: yeah . grad c: the uh hhh , { comment } silence su sublimination ? throwing somebody up the stairs ? have you never read the peter 's principle anyone here ? grad e: nope . phd a: oh , uh grad f: people reach their level of uh max their level of at which they 're incompetent or whatever . phd a: yeah . grad c: maximum incompetence phd a: yeah . right , right . grad c: and then you can throw them up the stairs grad e: alright . grad g: oh ! grad c: um . yeah . phd a: promote them , yeah . grad c: ok , so we can promote enter - view all all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - x - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . no no problem with that grad e: ok . grad c: and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that that this approach seems to be uh workable to me . i do n't know . if you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier . grad b: this is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions . grad g: uh yeah wait r yeah , yeah . that 's fine . grad b: that 's the that was the intent of of it , basically . grad e: sure . sure . grad g: uh that 's true . grad c: yeah . grad g: although um roles grad b: so i i do i 'm i 'm not grad c: i 'm i 'm never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` , grad g: yeah i i grad c: i 'm grad g: yeah . i was going to grad b: i b i mean rolls so grad g: bread rolls ? grad e: oh you meant pastries , then ? grad b: yeah , pastries is what i 'm talking about . grad g: pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example . undergrad d: bakery . bakery . grad e: this is the bakery example . got it . alright . grad g: i see . right . ok . grad e: help ! grad g: i guess i 'll agree to that , then . grad c: ok . that 's all i have for today . oh no , there 's one more issue . bhaskara brought that one up . meeting time rescheduling . grad g: i n did n't you say something about friday , grad c: yeah . grad g: or ? hmm . grad c: so it looks like you have not been partaking , the monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . so people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is friday two - thirty ? three ? what was it ? grad b: you have class until two , right ? so if we do n't want him if we do n't want him to run over here grad f: mm - hmm . grad c: two - th two - thirty - ish or three or friday at three or something around that time . grad g: so do i . yeah . grad b: two thirty - ish or three is grad e: mm - hmm . grad f: yeah . yeah . e grad c: um how how are your grad g: that would be good . phd a: uh friday uh yeah , that 's fine . grad c: and i know that you have until three you 're busy ? grad e: uh undergrad d: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: so three is sounds good ? grad e: yeah . grad g: i 'll be free by then . grad e: i could do that . yeah i mean earlier on friday is better but three you know i mean if it were a three or a three thirty time then i would take the three or whatever , grad c: mm - hmm . grad e: but yeah sure three is fine . grad c: yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably . grad e: i mean . undergrad d: yeah , and i do n't need to be here particularly deeply . grad c: often , no , but uh , undergrad d: yeah . grad c: whenever . undergrad d: but yeah . grad c: you are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in in your life then uh you 're free to c undergrad d: it 's fascinating . grad g: `` that 's the right answer . `` undergrad d: i 'm just glad that i do n't have to work it out grad c: undergrad d: because . grad e: yeah . grad c: hmm ? undergrad d: i 'm just glad that do n't have to work it out myself , that i 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because . grad c: uh but you 're a linguist . grad e: yeah . grad c: you should undergrad d: oh yeah . that 's why i 'm glad that i 'm not involved in working it out . grad c: ok . phd a: so it 's at friday at three ? there that 's grad c: and um grad e: so already again this week , grad c: how diligent do we feel ? grad e: huh ? grad c: yeah . do feel that we have done our chores for this week or grad f: yeah . so i mean clearly there 's i can talk about the um the parser changes on friday at least , grad c: ok , bhaskara will do the big show on friday . grad f: so . grad g: and you guys will argue some more ? grad b: and between now and then yeah . grad e: yeah . between now and then . grad g: and have some ? grad c: we will r grad e: promise ? grad g: probably . phd a: yeah . grad b: we will . do n't worry . grad g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad g: and we 'll get the summary like , this the c you know , short version , like phd a: an - and i would like to second keith 's request . grad g: s phd a: an example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example . grad c: yes . grad e: yeah . grad c: yes . i 've i 've i 've i guess i 'm on record for promising that now . phd a: ok . grad c: so um grad g: like have it we 'll have it in writing . so . or , better , speech . so . grad c: this is it and um grad b: the other good thing about it is jerry can be on here on friday and he can weigh in as well . grad c: yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for johno and me . grad g: oh yeah uh ok . let 's uh yeah they 're grad c: give us undergrad d: no problem , grad e: i think you 've got one on hand , undergrad d: yeah . grad e: huh ? grad g: i have several in my head , yeah . always thinking about binding . grad c: well the the the binding is technically no problem but it 's it for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if if there if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: if there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a grad g: so , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions . grad c: yep . that 's wonderful . grad g: so yeah . so it 's gen it 's general across all of these things grad c: yeah . grad g: it 's like i mean shastri would say you know binding is like an essential cognitive uh process . so . um . grad c: ok . grad g: so i do n't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where yeah , sometimes things belong and so actually i 'm not sure i would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . like i know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that , grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: right ? so is the ri right now are the ideas the rich rich the rad or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . it 's still it 's still mainly intention hypothesis grad c: yeah . yeah . grad g: and then that 's just one way to describe the the action part of it . grad c: yeah . grad g: ok . grad b: it 's an a attempt to refine it basically . grad c: it 's and yeah , grad g: ok , great uh - huh . grad c: it 's an an it 's it 's sort of grad g: not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend grad c: yeah . grad g: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever . grad c: yeah . and and there will be a a a relatively high level of redundancy grad g: so . grad c: in the sense that um ultimately one grad g: mm - hmm . which is , yeah , it 's fine grad c: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say `` well if you really look at it , you just need our rad . `` you can throw the rest away , right ? grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: because you 're not gon na get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object . grad g: right . right . mm - hmm . grad c: but then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we do n't really care about either . so . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: h but w we 'll see that then , and how how it sort of evolves . grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: i mean if if people really like our our rad , i mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um grad g: mmm . we know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of rad . grad c: yeah . yeah . undergrad d: you do n't have to use the acronym . grad g: i ca n't believe we 're using this term . so i 'm like rad ! like every time i say it , it 's horrible . ok . grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i see what you mean . grad b: rad 's a great term . grad g: is the but what is the `` why `` ? grad e: it 's rad , even ! grad b: why ? grad g: why ? grad e: it happened to c be what it stands for . grad b: it just happened to be the acronym . grad c: well grad g: yeah . that 's does n't make it a great term . it 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels . grad c: ye no but i undergrad d: just think of it as as `` wheel `` in german . grad c: but if you if you if you work in th in that xml community it is a great acronym grad g: do you see what i mean ? like grad c: because it e evokes whatever rdf grad g: oh . grad c: rdf is the biggest thing right ? that 's the rich sort of `` resource description framework `` grad e: oh `` rich de `` grad g: oh . grad c: and um and also so , description , having the word d term `` description `` in there is wonderful , grad g: mm - hmm . grad c: uh `` rich `` is also great , rwww . grad f: hmm . grad b: who does n't like to be a grad e: everybody likes action . grad g: oh . grad b: yeah . grad g: yeah . ok . grad e: plus it 's hip . the kids 'll like it . grad g: but what if it 's not an action ? grad c: it 's it 's rad , undergrad d: yeah all the kids 'll love it . grad f: hmm . grad c: yeah . grad g: and intentions will be `` rid `` ? like , `` ok `` . um are the are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago like the things maybe maybe you 're gon na run a trial tomorrow . i mean , i 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if i 'm thinking about examples i 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . so you showed some in this here before grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would i look if i want to see ? grad c: oh i you want audio ? grad g: you know . grad c: or do you want transcript ? grad g: no just just transcript . grad c: yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet . grad g: sorry . grad c: um i can e i can uh i 'll transcribe it though . grad g: oh , ok . i take that back then . grad c: it 's no problem . grad g: ok , well do n't do n't make it a high priority grad c: yeah . grad g: i in fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples grad c: mm - hmm . grad g: i mean , y the the the representational problems are i 'm sure , will be there , grad c: ok . grad g: like enough for me to think about . so . grad c: ok , so friday , whoever wants and comes , and can . grad e: ok . grad g: ok . grad c: this friday . grad g: here . ok . grad c: the big parser show . now you can all turn off your </s> [SEP]what did grad c think about the spg schema ?

grad c thought an approach in which the model had to refer to parents seemed inefficient . the model would constantly have to go back . grad c wanted to completely redo it , even if it meant throwing away what the team had developed thus far .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

the group mainly talked about the detailed design of the product at this meeting . first , the industrial designer introduced the function design of the product . it had not only some basic functions , but also the locator function and provided users with a revolutionary way of zapping . later , the group went on to check the controller 's paging ability and talked about more details on buttons . next , the marketing expert mentioned three things making the product marketable and one possible drawback of the product . besides , the marketing recommended making it upgradable but the project manager pointed out the risk of doing that . when evaluating the cost of the product , the group discussed some details of the components and made some adjustments . they finally got an estimate of fifteen point eight euros , which was within the budget . in the end , they did some self-assessment and celebrated the completion of the project .

summarize the presentation on the function design .[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]summarize the presentation on the function design .

the industrial designer introduced that the product not only had some basic functions , it also had the locator function and provided users with a revolutionary way of zapping . as for the material , the product would be made of plastic and rubber . in addition , the final design was thought to be slightly lighter and smaller than the present model . later , the group went on to check the controller 's paging ability and talked about some details on buttons .

what did the user interface designer and the project manager discuss about the trigger button ?[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]what did the user interface designer and the project manager discuss about the trigger button ?

the user interface designer thought it might be interesting to have a trigger button on the controller because it felt like there should be something , but they could n't figure out what button was important enough to put there and they did n't want to accidentally hit the power button . then the project manager proposed that having a trigger plus the scroll might solve the problem of landing and scrolling as it would be hit on both sides . the user interface designer agreed and further suggested tweaking that a little bit in the final design phase .

summarize the marketing expert 's perspective on the product .[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]summarize the marketing expert 's perspective on the product .

the marketing expert thought there were three things making the product marketable - the features , the characteristics , and the corporation behind the product . one drawback of the product was that it was only targeted at tv , but the marketing believed this limitation would n't be noteworthy in comparison with other good features . besides , the marketing proposed that the product should be upgradable but the project manager pointed out the risk of doing that .

what did the marketing think of the marketable part of product design ?[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]what did the marketing think of the marketable part of product design ?

the marketing expert thought there were three things making the product marketable - the features , the characteristics , and the corporation behind the product . the features included the scroll , the locator , durability , and dependability . the characteristics referred to reliability , comfort , ergonomics , and being environmentally sensitive . as for the business background , they were a new company wanting to make a name for themselves and aiming at supplying good products at a fair price . all these above made the product competitive and the marketing believed they should go after more of the exclusivity sense than the mass market sense .

why did the industrial designer and the project manager disagree to make the product upgradable ?[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]why did the industrial designer and the project manager disagree to make the product upgradable ?

the marketing suggested producing the controller in a way that makes it upgradable like a sim card in the telephone . however , the industrial designer argued that if the controller was to have other functions it would need more buttons and they should design another version instead . also , the project manager pointed out there would be some risks of making it unusable or less usable .

summarize the discussion about product quotation .[SEP] <s>project manager: uh 'kay . so marketing: so so so . user interface: put on your mic . industrial designer: so you forgot how this works again ? user interface: boss . project manager: yep . industrial designer: boss . marketing: maybe . maybe maybe maybe . project manager: okay so we 're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ? user interface: yep . project manager: and here 's the agenda for this meeting . uh i 'm just gon na open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . you guys are gon na give us a presentation of our wonder product that i can see some demonstrations of over there . looks cool . and then we 're gon na evaluate it . marketing: bra user interface: project manager: then we 're gon na talk about finance , and i 've got a lovely excel spreadsheet that i knocked up in the last five minutes for this . and uh industrial designer: hmm you knocked it up ? project manager: yep . and we 're gon na evaluate the product and close . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: got forty minutes to do this in . we should be fine . let 's try and keep this one on schedule . user interface: alright . project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: your thing is in where is it ? is it in user interface: three , three . industrial designer: thi third third third . the end product thingy . yeah . project manager: who wants it ? user interface: pedro can have it . industrial designer: user interface: i like industrial designer: . user interface: i 'll help talk . industrial designer: um yeah so what we ended up with . production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteen point eight euros , user interface: industrial designer: someone forgot the units there user interface: unit price . industrial designer: yeah , uh unit price unit production price cost thing . um we implemented the basic functions , which is just tv functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the the channels , and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll . project manager: zapping your favourite channels , eh ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: scrolling through your favourites list . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: zapping you know zapping . project manager: ah 'kay okay , that 's favourites . industrial designer: maybe it 's just a portuguese thing . and um yeah that was the result . project manager: ah 'kay . i like the the the the logo on there as well . industrial designer: user interface: it 's very prominent . project manager: it is very prominent . so this is the user interface: so here i 'll give you the so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . um so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here . project manager: okay . user interface: uh you 've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . this is the power button . uh we have our um we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? this is the teletext . industrial designer: start s the the start uh to to to user interface: the programme button , industrial designer: programme yeah . project manager: ah , okay i see . user interface: yeah the programme button . so this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your uh the um the type of television you wan na use . so um the plastic is the white area of this of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering . project manager: it 's pretty cool . user interface: so you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all gon na be rubber , so it 's pretty hard to actually damage it um project manager: is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? user interface: yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it industrial designer: not helping . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: oh well i guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it . user interface: yeah and it depends on if it 's sliding , but i think it 's pretty ergonomic . you can feel it . project manager: mm . feels good . industrial designer: project manager: i take it that this is gon na be slightly lighter in the final design as well . user interface: yeah of course . well this is clay . industrial designer: project manager: yeah it 's kinda cool . you have to reach a little bit do n't you . user interface: yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but i think we might scale down the final model a bit . project manager: ah yeah that would n't make sense . user interface: these this is a bit larger than it would be , but project manager: it 's cool . i 'm impressed . industrial designer: do n't have no one to handle that . user interface: project manager: and hold it so marketing: mm that 's project manager: wh what 's the marketing perspective ? marketing: oh that 's oh i like it . i mean you guys gave me more than i was asking for , so i 'm happy because we 've got some really marketable features in this . yeah i think it 's good . good good good job . user interface: mm pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability . industrial designer: yeah . so you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where 's my remote . user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: uh pla user interface: industrial designer: the locator function . marketing: i 'm ha project manager: okay . marketing: it 's great . that 's great . it 's a great feature . user interface: um beep beep beep project manager: mm it 's impressing . industrial designer: wicked is n't it ? project manager: so let me get it , user interface: so project manager: if i press this button user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i see . that 's pretty cool . hang on . user interface: beep beep beep be shut up . industrial designer: marketing: so you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he 'll be across town user interface: beep beep beep project manager: i plan to do that as well . user interface: okay . um no no no tha that 's alri project manager: so the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? user interface: exactly that 's exactly what those are for . project manager: ah okay okay . user interface: and um there 's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um you could industrial designer: project manager: user interface: beep beep beep industrial designer: user interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger project manager: yeah it 's the right shape is n't it ? user interface: it it 's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we could n't figure out what button is important enough to put there . and we we do n't wan na accidentally be hitting the power button like that so project manager: but maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling , user interface: mm . project manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides . user interface: right . so maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit , project manager: okay . user interface: but marketing: uh , i can see that . project manager: but it 's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , has n't it ? user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yep i like . good job . project manager: so is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? marketing: no no . user interface: oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time . project manager: okay . user interface: so we 'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people . project manager: the hmm . user interface: careful . project manager: it came off . the scroll wheels , a problem with them not being sort of user interface: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore . marketing: well i mean of course , i mean user interface: industrial designer: marketing: my my s my suggestion is we 're gon na go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions . project manager: mm . marketing: you know some blend of silvers and blacks . user interface: beep beep beep . project manager: okay enough of that . industrial designer: project manager: well i it 's cool guys . 'kay so are we done with the this presentation ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: ja . project manager: okay . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: now now . user interface: marketing: so you 're not gon na find my uh my folder up there i got ta do mine up at the board . project manager: have you ? okay . marketing: yeah yeah . so project manager: can i not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? marketing: no it 's not in there because i had the computer problem and i i i cou i could n't create it . project manager: oh i see i see . marketing: i could n't create it in the powerpoint , project manager: marketing: and i think i 've got this really strange cable . so what i had , basically going from the powerpoint format , is that uh yeah yeah i like this a lot . is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? project manager: industrial designer: nah . user interface: marketing: so what we had is we had the method . that 's not how you spell method , is it ? user interface: no way . project manager: marketing: no a_ . . so this does n't go so fast this way . and when i speak about method i speak about the marketing of the product huh . and uh to me with this product we got uh we got basically three things to market . we 've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the i i do n't know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate help me . the the corporation stands behind the product , okay . so the features i think we got the scroll , we 've got the uh the locator , we 've got the durability , we 've got the dependability , industrial designer: it fell off . marketing: we 've got you know the features that make this a unique product . um user interface: beep beep beep . marketing: the characteristics i talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . uh and the corporation , we 're talking about we 're we 're a new we 're a new company . we 're wanting to make a name for ourself . we 're wanting you to uh find our product so we 're gon na give you a good product at a fair price . one thing i would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? that was something i would be interested in . um so yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , i believe , to make it marketable i believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty euros . we 're gon na be competitive , and we 're gon na we 're gon na have a market niche . um w project manager: do you would you a argue that that we 're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ? marketing: that that would be uh that would be i think a decision best made by corporate um i i m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , i th i think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense . project manager: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . marketing: but i 'm sh i 'm sure open to to market this in either direction . but you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost i think it uh there 's nobody else that 's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . the only limitations i see to this is that we 're focused on television only . uh that 's the only that 's the only drawback i see to this . but with all of these other features i think people c one thing i 'm i 'm hoping for is people are not gon na even notice . there 's gon na be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does n't work for my d_v_d_ and my but i like these other things , so they keep it , they do n't take it back . project manager: and we 're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , are n't we ? th there 's no fundamentally different technology to do that . marketing: well one of one of the thoughts that i had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? project manager: hmm . marketing: you know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . you know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after industrial designer: w we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm , but you follow what i 'm s i 'm s industrial designer: we we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . but uh marketing: yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we 're yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that 's that was just an idea i had . uh to me the only additions project manager: yeah , the plus there 's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less b because at the moment it 's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it 's very simple , and it just works . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm there 's a risk of that . marketing: yep . but anyway that 's uh project manager: okay so we can talk about finance now . so i have a little spreadsheet for us where i i was wondering , you when you talked about the fifteen point eight euros , i was wondering how you came up with that figure ? user interface: well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units . marketing: project manager: okay so i have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . now user interface: oh . industrial designer: very co very colf colourful . project manager: i 've made a f few assumptions here in that i 'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four euros , user interface: uh-huh . project manager: equivalent to solar cells , which i think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: uh and i 'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: beep beep beep . project manager: can be made for it sounded different that time uh can be made for a similar price to uh an l_c_ display , user interface: oh , sorry . industrial designer: project manager: uh an uh uh do you think that 's fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? user interface: yeah um i do think we that we we uh do n't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print , project manager: . okay . user interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there . project manager: yep . okay . so we 're down to sixteen point four , yeah . user interface: and we and we have a single-curved uh project manager: is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ? user interface: uh i think that project manager: we 're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur marketing: we 've got a we 've got a curve and a droop . i do n't know whether that . user interface: it 's single-curved , project manager: you think ? okay user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm convinced . but we save one euro that way , yeah ? so we come bring it down to fifteen point four . user interface: see it 's a little bit more than f single-curved . so yeah it 's fifteen point eight , that 's where we came up with it . project manager: well hang on . marketing: project manager: do do n't speak so it 's in here , in that user interface: okay . project manager: w do we have any we have special form do n't we ? user interface: yeah we do . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that 's yeah . user interface: ah . what do you know . project manager: but the the the we have n't talked about any special colour though uh i do n't th user interface: oh it 's a that 's not very special , it 's pretty project manager: if we 're going for greys and silvers then i do n't think we 're o okay so we 're user interface: if th . project manager: push-button , scroll wheel , we 're basically we have uh th industrial designer: we do n't project manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? user interface: that 's a scroll . industrial designer: it 's a scroll . project manager: just a scroll ? it 's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ? user interface: uh no we just use it as a scroll . marketing: ooh . project manager: okay then we have fifteen point eight euros . user interface: it was a pretty accurate estimate i would say . project manager: it was n't bad . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're wicked . awesome . project manager: okay so we 're on to the user interface: s 's kind of s frighteningly accurate . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that paul the criterion criteria that paul has has given us , and we can use that to tell how 's it going ? anyone got any thoughts ? user interface: what ? project manager: how how have we done today ? user interface: i think we did pretty well . project manager: i think we did pretty well too . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that looks pretty spectacular . marketing: no , i think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept . project manager: any other chang uh thoughts ? okay so th th what about um room for creativity ? marketing: project manager: is it the . industrial designer: that was mm-hmm user interface: sh i think there was plenty of room . project manager: i industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i think we we ended up being quite creative there . user interface: we got a couple innovative i marketing: yeah user interface: couple innovative ideas . marketing: well we we we kinda broke we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us project manager: mm . marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . marketing: we raised the price of it , we 've added two t new technology to it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you know you know if this thing flies then we 've we 've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us . project manager: not every idea necessarily , industrial designer: basically . project manager: it 's still a remote control . user interface: marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: uh no yeah but we did we did break with the specs a little bit i guess , industrial designer: project manager: but the uh marketing: but i like i mean when i say we have we had i believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is we did it . project manager: 'kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? no th th i think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing . user interface: yep . industrial designer: it was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was project manager: i agree . industrial designer: teamwork . marketing: cohesive yeah . project manager: synergy . user interface: there was a lot of synergy . industrial designer: marketing: yes synergistic yeah . project manager: teamwork , yeah he is uh . marketing: yeah . project manager: what did we think of the meeting room , i guess is an important thing here . mm . user interface: these cables suck . project manager: yeah , this falls off industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro user interface: yep . industrial designer: and that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: d you must have very long shirts . that 's way far down lapel mic . project manager: mm-mm , lapel . wha okay , oh , alright . industrial designer: lapel lapel lapel . user interface: lapel . industrial designer: that 's almost a crotch mi cr project manager: that 's it 's down , it 's quite close . marketing: you know you know what they 're gon na have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th project manager: keep it , keep it calm . oh dear . no more pizza for me . industrial designer: oh dear oh dear . marketing: project manager: so yeah the the pen came in alright and it 's a little uncomfortable to use but i guess it works . industrial designer: 'cause this is you were using it o upside down . still that user interface: that 's our boss . project manager: nah , i 'm i 'm not convinced of that at all . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i 've been wor i 've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they 're that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around , industrial designer: use them like that . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down . user interface: pedro 's right . project manager: i do n't care . uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . what new ideas have we found ? industrial designer: user interface: oh wel marketing: new ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or project manager: well let 's do both then . marketing: what are we ta project manager: uh for the product ? user interface: well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah we came up with quite a bit . industrial designer: bunch of new ideas . project manager: and for the meeting room , has anyone got any more industrial designer: yeah comfortable headsets would be nice . project manager: yeah less sore on the ears . marketing: well i i mean industrial designer: mm . marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but i 'm sure that there 's there 's some justification for these things that i do n't know about . and of course i did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon . user interface: marketing: it 's not been uh it 's not been cooperating so well , but i do n't think that 's the that 's avoidable . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: okay so are the costs within the budget ? industrial designer: mm n no . project manager: nope . marketing: no . project manager: oh hang on it really that 's something we that the costs were under twelve fifty euros . no requirements are changed . we 're still under twenty euros to build , so we 're good . industrial designer: project manager: and the costs within the budget ? not the original budget , but they are now . is the project evaluated ? mm i think so yeah , then celebration as it says . industrial designer: hooray . marketing: okay . industrial designer: free coke provided at the cafeteria . project manager: oh i do n't know how that got there . user interface: all right . project manager: uh anyway . user interface: industrial designer: who wrote that one ? project manager: thank user interface: project manager: thanks guys . marketing: so we need to close this meeting , industrial designer: marketing: yeah bravo . congratulations . user interface: good job guys . industrial designer: cool . marketing: s i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let 's close this and come back and 'kay . project manager: yeah , i 've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . oh . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about product quotation .

when evaluating the cost of the product , the group discussed some details of the components and made some adjustments on the chip , curve , button and scroll wheel . they finally got an accurate estimate of fifteen point eight euros , which was thought to be within the budget of twelve-five euros .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

the meeting began with the members ' personal presentations on the conceptual remote control . the marketing would like the remote control to be with an appealing appearance and light material to attract more young consumers . the user interface proposed to add a speak recognition system onto the remote control so that it would be able to function according to the user 's instruction . after the presentations , they spent some time on the button layout and the shape of the remote control . though the discussion was mostly smooth , they hardly reached an agreement towards the materials . at the end of the meeting , the group talked about the company features on the product , including a slogan and a logo .

summarize the personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control .[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]summarize the personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control .

according to the marketing , the drawback of the existing remote controls was that they were not so good-looking , so their conceptual remote control would be with an appealing and bright color.the industrial designer laid his emphasis on the materials that he would not like the remote control to be made in a too formal way , like those the elders were using . as for the user interface , he proposed to add a speak recognition system onto the remote control in order to make it able to function once it received the user 's voice instruction .

what did the marketing think of the materials when giving personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control ?[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]what did the marketing think of the materials when giving personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control ?

the marketing proposed to use titanium as the material of the front side of the remote control for that it would look strong but not be so hard to handle . however , he went on to point out the problem that the color would be dark , which meant that it might not cater for the youth 's tastes . thus they might not use the titanium as the main material .

what did the industrial designer recommend to do when discussing personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control ?[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]what did the industrial designer recommend to do when discussing personal presentations on the appearance design , the speak recognition system and the ideal materials of the remote control ?

in order to meet with the annual trend of fruity elements , the industrial designer suggested making the remote control in a banana shape . for one thing , it would be related to the annual fashion trend and for another , the yellow color would satisfy the youth . however , in case the banana shape would be out of fashion next year , it might not be a perfect solution .

what did the group talk about the shape , the color and the front buttons of the remote control ?[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]what did the group talk about the shape , the color and the front buttons of the remote control ?

as to cater to the fashion trend , the group decided to put the remote control in a fruity shape and a bright lovely color . then in order to make their product both good-looking and comfortable to hold , they reached the agreement that the front side of the remote control would be made of plastic while the back would be made of titanium . the group also spent some time on the internal design of the product , for example , the chip would be made of silicon and electrical cable would be just the same as other counterparts .

why did the marketing disagree with the industrial designer when discussing the shape , the color and the front buttons of the remote control ?[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]why did the marketing disagree with the industrial designer when discussing the shape , the color and the front buttons of the remote control ?

while discussing the button layout , the group found that some of the elements could not be removable on the remote control , so the industrial designer proposed to make those elements with titanium and other things with plastic . however , the marketing did not agree with this because he thought the plastic would not make the remote control look strong or be satisfactory to be held in hand .

what did the user interface elaborate on the shape of the button ?[SEP] <s>marketing: hello . project manager: . . marketing: yes , i made it . english from now on . industrial designer: . marketing: drawing or project manager: yeah just testing . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm ? english . industrial designer: just kidding . project manager: . industrial designer: so annoying . project manager: break is over . marketing: ooh it works . project manager: whoo . marketing: spicy . project manager: spicy . marketing: where are are all the other presentations ? industrial designer: i just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be marketing: the conceptual or industrial designer: yeah i think so . yeah , conceptual design . what or whatever does it marketing: ah . because i see only my own presentation user interface: industrial designer: no no no , can you go back one ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh 'cause it has to be powerpoint pre yeah components design , that 's it . marketing: this ? i 'll just put it in there . project manager: so , he 's coming . industrial designer: . i did get a bit more done than the last time , marketing: or not . user interface: okay . project manager: oh okay . industrial designer: 'cause i knew that i did n't have time so i just copy and paste everything into the user interface: marketing: ah , project manager: ah . she . marketing: i ca n't cut and paste it into the other folder but project manager: you can look at the final report , 'cause i have to record everything we are deciding and such , so i 'm trying to write it down between everything else . marketing: move to meeting room . industrial designer: sometimes i have these pop-ups or these sounds and there 's nothing there , marketing: yeah . project manager: oh . industrial designer: and also with i do n't know how to use powerpoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it . marketing: yeah me too , . user interface: i i 've got the same problem as well . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: here we go again . welcome . uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh f the remote control has to support . industrial designer: thi project manager: so who wants go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . project manager: yes ? industrial designer: who wants to start ? marketing: me first again or project manager: yeah sure . does n't matter . user interface: oh . no . yeah . no problem marketing: yeah . alright . did you open it already or project manager: no . marketing: no . ah . ah . yes . so welcome to the marketing presentation once again . um this time about trendwatching . uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . uh it shows a number of developments . uh i will address them uh in a moment . um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that 's our public . um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . and the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . so um the developments i will address them project manager: marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . so to give you an idea . um well the developments ? uh development one . uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . and the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . i think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition , industrial designer: sound . yeah yeah uh uh . marketing: so i do n't expect that to be a problem . and the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . um well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect , w which was twice as important as the third aspect . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so um that kind of gets you this ratios . so fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention . project manager: . marketing: uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . um well technolog technological innovation , we 've covered that pretty much i guess . um and easy to use , i do n't think that will be problem . so my point of attention is especially this part . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that this will be a crux . so that was the marketing uh presentation . i had only one document left . industrial designer: and shall i go first ? user interface: yeah . no . i i do n't mi i do n't mind . industrial designer: so i user interface: that 's project manager: yeah yeah sure . no . marketing: so kind of this user interface: do you want to go first ? okay . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: so a k a small example . user interface: yeah . marketing: kind of this this look . user interface: marketing: uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours user interface: yeah . marketing: i dunno . just made a quick design . user interface: project manager: cool . yeah you 're just the user interface hmm ? user interface: it 's better than than my uh drawing . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah okay but i have to design the industrial designer: uh components . project manager: yeah layout . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: oh no . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . project manager: you probably opened it . industrial designer: yeah true . um project manager: f_ five . marketing: f_ five . industrial designer: alright . so marketing: industrial designer: i 'm dealing with the components design . um let 's see . i uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . and i used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . that 's why i had to , wanted to go first . well they gave me um an idea about what people want . we 're f mainly focusing on this group , but i want to make the distinction clear . uh i could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so i do n't have examples of how it looks like . but it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . if you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . so this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . there is a lot of um factors involved in choosing the components . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: there 's a lot of options that we have to discuss . uh for example the energy source . we have four types . the basic battery . uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it . project manager: industrial designer: which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wan na use the project manager: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and uh of course solar cells . but i dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product . marketing: wi an indoors . industrial designer: so uh my project manager: yeah okay . marketing: oh . project manager: calculator 's can do it . industrial designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there 's n is n't much light like in scandinavia , they would n't be y able to use it half of the year you know . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so that 's not cool either . so um for the uh a case , there 's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . or the double curved . um i was n't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it 's daring and different from what we have now . uh the case materials . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . i would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wan na see nowadays . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um poo , this is a lot of text . i was n't able to organise this yet . we have yeah several uh interface designs . uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . pushbuttons . yeah . industrial designer: so that 's not really interesting . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: electronics ? yeah , maybe we wan na decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip i think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . um yeah . i think this is about it . yeah i was working on some per personal preferences . i first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah i 'm traditional and that 's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . but i really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: as an optional uh feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: or combine uh both with a with one uh project manager: uh i think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the industrial designer: yeah maybe we marketing: i guess we can only choose one . user interface: okay . industrial designer: i can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . but it is more longlasting , that the people do n't have to ever buy batteries again . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . and it 's more fun . project manager: i did n't receive any info uh . industrial designer: and it 's also more fun yeah . i always chuck my uh remote control around , so marketing: yeah , just playing with it project manager: yeah . marketing: and especially when the material 's rubber . it can be done , i mean , you ca n't harm it , project manager: s yeah it 's safe . user interface: and throw it . industrial designer: yeah y exactly . marketing: so it 's a perfect combination i guess . industrial designer: you do n't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever . user interface: marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so that 's the end of it . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: 'kay next . industrial designer: uh go ahead . marketing: so double curved is like this , this , this , or industrial designer: no it means curved in two dimensions . so uh w single curved ? uh let 's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension . marketing: mm . industrial designer: and double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . like three d_ . yeah . marketing: yeah . also in in height ? project manager: uh marketing: yeah okay . project manager: okay . can we uh user interface: yeah . one one uh very important thing i was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . we were going to use that . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . so um yeah um yeah that 's one thing uh which i 'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control . project manager: well the visual representation is not there with speech industrial designer: design ? user interface: no okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and project manager: but you can yeah . just yeah . user interface: so okay . project manager: i think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i do n't think you have to design anything else for that . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah with the programme . user interface: but do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ? project manager: both . user interface: for for everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: also for the advanced options ? okay . uh we have this very uh basic uh trendy design . everybody says it so that 's what 's uh yeah um yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . that 's yeah obvious . um yeah . pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . and only the the lcd panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options . marketing: and and the and the buttons that you need to control it , i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . um yeah design has to be very attractive but that 's your your op your yeah . project manager: user interface: you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button . project manager: that would be the back . user interface: i 'm the back . project manager: back and okay . marketing: yeah . user interface: back and okay yeah . marketing: back and okay . project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: uh project manager: you did read the minutes i wrote ? user interface: what ? a little bit i think but not not everything w industrial designer: i project manager: oh okay 'cause i pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . so user interface: okay . oh i uh did n't read that . project manager: i hate doing work for nothing . user interface: but but this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons . marketing: user interface: um i wanted to to categorise everything . uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh led light . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . and uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous so that 's an a also an option . um that was it . project manager: that was it ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . uh again . ugh . okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? uh energy source , chip type , case type . and user interface . but i did n't see a clear distinction between these so i think what we have is okay . so we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy . marketing: no . project manager: uh the case would be doubly curved . so industrial designer: and rubber . rubber material . marketing: rubber material . project manager: rubber material . and that 's the only thing we have left . industrial designer: yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function . project manager: oh okay . no it 's easy . marketing: so that 's uh is that is that the advanced chip ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: advanced chip . okay . industrial designer: otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . but we need more . marketing: wow . yeah . alright . industrial designer: i 'm just thinking , this is not my department , but i i 'm not sure what this is gon na cost , marketing: kinetic . double curved . project manager: too . industrial designer: to be able to m project manager: uh i did n't get any info on this . so marketing: . industrial designer: so 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five euro a piece . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's gon na be difficult huh ? marketing: the cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? project manager: i have total here . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: i did n't get any information about that so user interface: . we 're going to produce it in uh china so it 's no problem . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: child labour man , we love it . user interface: marketing: yeah , so it 's cheap . project manager: who does n't . uh let 's see . is there a new thing ? marketing: um well the interface type supplements . project manager: yeah the interface , maybe can user interface: uh it 's it 's quite difficult because we we have n't got all the options uh yeah . project manager: ooh . no . uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? and could you put that in the group folder ? of the project folder . industrial designer: um let me see . wait a sec . marketing: if you go to your homepage or something , you should industrial designer: yeah i 'm going there now . marketing: get your own information . industrial designer: inspiration . marketing: i got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so project manager: ah you did n't draw it yourself . user interface: industrial designer: well marketing: no . project manager: ah . marketing: too less time . industrial designer: um yeah maybe it 's marketing: yeah , also the menu . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that that w user interface: this is the the menu i was uh looking uh at . marketing: yeah . yeah i was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier user interface: yeah . project manager: arrow . user interface: arrow yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so that indicates that there 's an menu under that menu . industrial designer: yeah . yeah perfect . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: . 's the target group . industrial designer: maybe it 's easier if you guys come over here . user interface: s yeah . project manager: yeah sure . industrial designer: s see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know . marketing: oh yeah . industrial designer: it 's like really basic . but this m is more appealing to old people and we do n't want that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is what we 're looking for . and th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions . project manager: oh okay . i see . industrial designer: not only like this but it has to be project manager: yeah also like this . so you can hold it . industrial designer: exactly . it has to be kind of instead of the playstation , the module . it has to be like the the game cube , you know , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . and user interface: but it has also to it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people . project manager: . user interface: th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . so industrial designer: it ha project manager: the children 's story . yeah i 've got it . industrial designer: yeah but that 's that 's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually , project manager: distinction . yeah . industrial designer: 'cause we wan na appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always , user interface: the colour yeah . okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with leds uh beneath the the buttons . industrial designer: you know , with the project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you press a button and you can disable the the colour leds for for people that do n't like it . marketing: mm . industrial designer: there is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe we should consider this function . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: to customise it and so i mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour project manager: different . mm-hmm . industrial designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera . project manager: camera . marketing: yeah . cool . s underwater uh project manager: yeah submarine . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: personally i think it 's really ugly . project manager: well user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: just give me the thing that it 's inside there project manager: yeah but this this the is for the . user interface: very cheap uh cheap look . industrial designer: maybe i 'm too old for this stuff . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . uh industrial designer: so those i think are all my marketing: . industrial designer: oh . project manager: ah yeah bright colours . marketing: yeah . also a kind of rubber uh industrial designer: and this is , this is with the curved that i mean . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's singly curved . industrial designer: yeah . yeah ? project manager: okay . marketing: that should be nice . project manager: well we could make a compromise between that . but i do n't know if it 's worth the effort . industrial designer: a compromise between what ? project manager: uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . so to appeal a little more to the all the public . marketing: so s industrial designer: this , this would be uh single curved uh ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah there 's only in in this dimension . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: like this . so curvy or not . project manager: also . industrial designer: yeah . exactly . exactly . marketing: yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ? project manager: yeah that would be an option . i do n't know what you think . industrial designer: i think the marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean our aim is to make something different right ? to make something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i would go for the double curved . project manager: okay . yeah i 'd agree . industrial designer: and i i 'm i 'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it kind of holds nicely , something like that . user interface: yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons . industrial designer: well this is really your decision but marketing: yeah . user interface: if you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you do n't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons . industrial designer: yeah . as well . you can make a trigger button or something like that . user interface: yeah . something to shoot at your television industrial designer: yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm . user interface: that 's yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that would be a nice way to use it but i mean , yeah , i 'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand i think . project manager: different . stands out . or oh yeah a one hand uh solution . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so from top view it looks kinda like this . but from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape . project manager: can turn it maybe . marketing: maybe because the the screen is on top you can have project manager: to switch from buttons to interface hmm . if you turn it a little . . industrial designer: . marketing: maybe you can c have this kind of shape . a little upwards . so that the screen is more project manager: oh yeah . least you can easily see it . marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen . industrial designer: how about marketing: well well you have it in your hand so it 's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . so then you have double double curved in some way . so this this is so the screen is positioned over here . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: oh . something like that . and the buttons are more , well it 's very thick now but industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . marketing: that 's uh that 's industrial designer: how about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop . project manager: if you can uh flip . industrial designer: so that the only the simple functions will be visible at first . marketing: yeah ? that that you can press it and then it comes up ? or industrial designer: and then if you want project manager: uh so you have a the the side view . industrial designer: yeah . something like that . marketing: but then the side view can be straight . if you have a pop-up screen . but i dunno if that 's too expensive . project manager: so and you want to be able to industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean maybe it 's too much project manager: make this industrial designer: no uh like project manager: . industrial designer: i would draw it like this . let 's say this is the side view . that you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . if you know what i mean . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: so that it would come up like that . project manager: okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way . industrial designer: yeah or preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons . project manager: yeah . oh yeah . yeah yeah yeah yeah . right . yeah that 's good idea . marketing: oh the advanced buttons . right . user interface: that 's the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but you you want industrial designer: f for the lcd menu right ? user interface: okay . you just want to hide them all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so w w project manager: no not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons . user interface: the oh . marketing: yeah . project manager: but you can hide the okay and the back uh button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah . project manager: and the menu button also because when you flip it open marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically . industrial designer: oh project manager: industrial designer: activate and th the yeah . marketing: so okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open . project manager: why ? you could just make it mechanical . industrial designer: true . true . but you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . you know a simple uh with a marketing: yeah . yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your user interface: that 's but it 's it 's not industrial designer: yeah . exactly . user interface: it 's not very uh very strong uh yeah if you drop it one time . marketing: true . it uh c it can go open . industrial designer: well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the lcd screen and it wo n't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever . project manager: if you cover it with rubber . mm . user interface: okay . marketing: an adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that . industrial designer: and project manager: yeah . so it can bounce . industrial designer: exactly . exactly . we just have to make sure that the closing mechanism wo n't break . marketing: yeah , uh it 's very no it 's very strong . industrial designer: th it 's very solid yeah . project manager: yeah okay so that that may work . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that actually will offer some extra protection for the project manager: okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what kind of industrial designer: yeah i was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th project manager: harder . marketing: yeah the lower part does n't work i guess , so maybe you should try it over there . project manager: . industrial designer: okay . if this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . with your uh wrist . project manager: industrial designer: that you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . so it 's easier to hold in your hand , to y f user interface: but when you are left-handed , that 's that 's a problem . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh yeah . yeah of course . project manager: maybe can design two versions . industrial designer: yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that 's that 's very expensive uh industrial designer: like like you drew here . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: give it project manager: and ergonomical shape . yeah . industrial designer: i would give it a female shape user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh yeah . anyway . marketing: yeah . project manager: the female shape yeah . with two uh industrial designer: obviously . make it more appealing to guys . marketing: yeah . user interface: we we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh industrial designer: i mean project manager: oh yeah . some uh k esk uh yeah . user interface: and so if you yeah . marketing: yeah but but that 's optional for later i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: i mean , we have to make industrial designer: yeah but we have hardware inside , which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape . user interface: some yeah . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah we we better so choose one industrial designer: and also the screen , you can not mould it . user interface: no no no no . industrial designer: you know kind of thing . marketing: yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that 's the kind of the idea , industrial designer: and then you can marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb , industrial designer: you can place the screen here , which can come . marketing: you you can you can use , project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , you can use the button option project manager: so the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ? industrial designer: and but then i w i would marketing: spongey . industrial designer: i would do the arrows here , kind of thing . marketing: spongey can be reached by means of industrial designer: those buttons ? and the simple buttons here , user interface: . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . and and the and the control thngs in the middle ? the the the arrows ? industrial designer: i uh y eah that 's what i mean . user interface: no the arrow 's over here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the arrows over here , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and here the s simple uh marketing: yeah and then numbers . project manager: buttons . okay . marketing: yeah . alright . project manager: i think that uh it 's a nice design . marketing: uh pretty nice design . yeah . industrial designer: project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it looks uh pretty fancy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or do we wan na make its shape look like a banana or something ? user interface: industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: . project manager: yeah that 's user interface: marketing: uh bananas wierd shape and other fruits also , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours . industrial designer: yeah we could make marketing: i do n't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? like some soft green or something ? project manager: orange or something . marketing: or and then user interface: or blue ? dark blue or marketing: oh yeah yeah , dark blue industrial designer: we should use marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that , user interface: yeah . marketing: with very uh bright tones i guess . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow . marketing: so you have something like project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the leds on the on the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah okay yeah . user interface: if you we uh yeah . if you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it 's just a neutral colour , project manager: user interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the people . project manager: huh cool . marketing: mm . that does n't really work . to draw , i guess . project manager: no it 's . marketing: oh . what 's this ? project manager: yeah it 's text . user interface: marketing: right . project manager: n no you have to exit . marketing: hm . project manager: you could also make line with uh user interface: so that 's marketing: yeah . two hours further . project manager: yeah . marketing: thickness . oh . user interface: so that 's blue . marketing: oh . wh why not go for the twenty ? user interface: project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's what i call painting . user interface: mm . project manager: y marketing: so that 's that 's a dark blue basic colour i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah and then on top of that . marketing: it 's pretty nice . and then uh oh project manager: some yellow . marketing: yeah with some some yellow banana project manager: banana colour . industrial designer: and how about some uh some flashing standby lights ? marketing: like . industrial designer: like you have on the samsung , well i do n't like to call brands phones , marketing: industrial designer: the you know that 'cause i remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: so it not not only in in the colours of the leds , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: yeah if you if flashing colour so you ca n't lose it , basically . industrial designer: um user interface: yeah . marketing: some some industrial designer: yeah . exactly . project manager: well i think it 's a bit too much but user interface: maybe a industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah an orange . well alright well this is more like purple i guess , project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: but it 's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so uh yeah . that would be a nice uh nice device i guess . user interface: and which which colour should uh should i give the the display ? uh project manager: who ? user interface: or marketing: i mean , the the colour of the background of the display ? user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: ah well i do n't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive . project manager: and then you can use yellow or semething . why not ? aye . user interface: yeah . marketing: so just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: green is too old-fashioned . but blue , blue 's okay . j industrial designer: as long as you loo use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour . user interface: yeah project manager: like this . user interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? industrial designer: so that people with uh with marketing: white backlight , and dark . user interface: dark uh letters , yeah . marketing: yeah . whatever which is visible . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . i mean it 's hard to tell uh i dunno . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and also for people who are a bit colourblind . project manager: colourblind yeah . marketing: yeah . true . project manager: no so that 's mostly red and green i believe . marketing: which which uh colour should the buttons be ? user interface: that 's adjustable . project manager: woah . all all buttons ? marketing: why adjustable ? user interface: yeah ? or not . project manager: okay . marketing: no uh user interface: that 's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . or is it uh too expensive ? marketing: but maybe i mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? project manager: it 's difficult . marketing: and if the background is very dark blue project manager: blue . maybe green . industrial designer: but do n't we wan na make the background the the bright colo colours ? so th the total of the thing is very bright ? project manager: yeah you can industrial designer: like the pictures i showed you guys . those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy . marketing: yeah ? project manager: mm-hmm flashy . marketing: so more like project manager: mm bzz . marketing: does n't work very well . uh . more like this colour . industrial designer: yeah something like that , something that stands out more . marketing: and then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? the the press buttons . should they be white or black or project manager: red maybe . user interface: and it it looks quite cheap , that colour i think . marketing: uh project manager: black . user interface: it 's it 's not industrial designer: the green ? project manager: why ? user interface: yeah . i dunno . marketing: yeah but it 's pretty fresh , on the other side . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: it 's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment . user interface: it 's it 's trendy okay . but marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: my couch is in that colour . project manager: ooh . . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: well it works pretty well . project manager: marketing: and then time was up . project manager: uh not yet . marketing: uh industrial designer: do you get a pop-up if we marketing: . project manager: yeah within five minutes yeah . marketing: that you have five minutes left or industrial designer: alright . project manager: y left yeah left and then uh i have to kick you out . marketing: so something like this . user interface: yeah . marketing: that should be pretty nice colour . but maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people . project manager: yeah yeah . industrial designer: no that 's actu marketing: because the of the green . user interface: but the but the buttons have their own leds or not ? project manager: they have leds but they have a colour . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . even for colourblind . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: they will see one of each as grey . but if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i think . marketing: so red buttons are okay ? industrial designer: i think so . project manager: you can make them red . user interface: okay . that that 's a default uh setting . the the red buttons . project manager: yeah . but i think you need to keep in mind that the leds are just extra light . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: uh they they do n't determine the colour that much , i think . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . yeah i i was think about a red uh red leds and blue leds and project manager: 'cause you have to print on them you have a background marketing: no that 's that 's too busy i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: each number is transparent . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh partly but you have to print on the number . or the the sign . user interface: okay . project manager: so you ca n't change the colour so marketing: you better bet better better keep the led and the button itself in the same colour i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: so just an extra project manager: bit of light . industrial designer: you can marketing: bit of light and attention . project manager: bit of feedback . industrial designer: what we should do i think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured led behind it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so that the whole button will shine project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: as the colour the and if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it 's easy to hold f for both hands , marketing: industrial designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay with uh do n't mean to discourage you but uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . next thirty minutes to design something so industrial designer: ah , right . marketing: alright . project manager: and the you will do the evaluation . marketing: of the product ? project manager: yeah . marketing: which we do n't have yet . project manager: yeah uh about user interface: marketing: so wh how should i do that ? project manager: yeah i do n't know . you probably get a mail . marketing: oh okay . or you you or you send it to me . or just project manager: yeah . once they are finished . yeah . marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ? project manager: yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation you do n't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . i do n't know . marketing: yeah . i i probably get instruction on that , how to do that , project manager: yeah . marketing: so i make another presentation i guess . project manager: yeah . marketing: i kn i know what 's gon na happen in in yeah so project manager: about . yeah . you have the basic idea . marketing: i 've a basic idea . project manager: and you two uh are going to do this . look-and-feel and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so we 're gon na work here ? on this sketchboard ? project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: good luck . industrial designer: alright . thanks . marketing: yeah . alright so that 's uh project manager: so i uh make new page and uh be creative . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ? industrial designer: alright . project manager: yeah you have uh industrial designer: thirty minutes . project manager: thirty minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: then we have to uh see something which we can uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: show to the management . user interface: ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i would yeah . industrial designer: shall we uh make a new uh project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah l let 's just uh delete all these uh or marketing: yeah . project manager: next . marketing: . industrial designer: yeah , i just make a new one . user interface: oh , next . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh and save this uh board . industrial designer: alright . project manager: just save it . industrial designer: huh ? yeah i 'll just i 'll just keep it there . project manager: yeah okay but just press save and uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 'll be fine . marketing: on the left . s so , yeah . industrial designer: uh sorry . project manager: you can also include clip-art . user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: so if you 'll rather draw in paint or something industrial designer: current colour ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so um user interface: okay . uh industrial designer: shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ? user interface: yeah . and then after that we can make the user uh inter interface . industrial designer: because i i project manager: then look . industrial designer: yeah 'cause i have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design . marketing: this ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so how it 's gon na look . and you have to think uh how we 're gon na put the screen in it and those kind of things . marketing: uh pretty accurate . industrial designer: so if i 'm drawing and you think okay i 'm not gon na be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct . marketing: oh we skip this i guess . sound button press . user interface: yep . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh do you mind if i draw in black then ? for normal sketches . project manager: you can also include it . it 's not much work . user interface: oh no it 's it 's okay . marketing: light only button user ca user interaction . industrial designer: so we kind of want the girlish marketing: project manager: that 's included . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: figure . marketing: so the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . so industrial designer: i 'm not so good at drawing . excuse me ? marketing: well it 's a good thing that the buttons are n't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on when when they are usable . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: no uh uh . marketing: maybe you should draw it very large like this . user interface: yeah but this part is n't uh functioning properly . project manager: yeah . sensitive . marketing: oh right . industrial designer: how do we uh uh marketing: erase ? industrial designer: or insert text ? project manager: i dunno . maybe just start typing . industrial designer: user interface: it 's a bit uh large . industrial designer: oh that 's a bit big . yeah . project manager: you also do the other sides . not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . ex exactly . user interface: l let 's make first the the the all the views . the the front view , side view and the back view . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh . industrial designer: uh i thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you 're holding it with your project manager: jesus . what do i write down ? marketing: yeah . project manager: why ca n't i work here ? this is much easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: much easier , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and user interface: the middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but industrial designer: exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that i think . project manager: no so i just work here a few minutes . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah the display , industrial designer: uh do n't you think ? user interface: we yeah we can put a display . industrial designer: so the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it 's most reachable . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the user interface: the the arrow functions . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the th exactly . oh . this is hard . user interface: industrial designer: what do do n't have to draw it exactly do we ? user interface: no it 's it 's uh it 's okay . industrial designer: wait . let me try it one more time . maybe i 've uh it 's easier if i draw it in once . okay , of course it will become way more ugly . user interface: you can make it m larger . maybe it 's easier to to draw uh industrial designer: yeah . this 'll take forever . it 's fun to work with this pen . user interface: industrial designer: um so , larger . marketing: oh . user interface: yeah that 's that 's the basic idea . yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: wrong one . industrial designer: yeah . so side . project manager: five minutes left before the meeting ends . industrial designer: 'kay . um other views ? project manager: marketing: alright . user interface: yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit . industrial designer: uh user interface: that 's the question . industrial designer: yeah . let 's fill i fill in the buttons later . marketing: but we we user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so this is gon na be from the marketing: i is it if if this is from the side industrial designer: uh from user interface: from the marketing: woah . steady . industrial designer: yeah yeah . sorry . marketing: because there the screen goes up like that right ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so then it 's like this , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: or that 's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the it 's better to have it somewhat like this . or does it flip all the way ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm industrial designer: the the idea is that it has to flip up to here . user interface: may maybe it 's it 's easier to to integrate the the the lcd screen just into this this bubble . because it do does n't have to flip then . industrial designer: okay . user interface: because we have en enough space for for making a an l_c_d . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah yeah . user interface: because here marketing: it 's better to to have this like this i guess , and then flip it like this . industrial designer: true . user interface: but why why do we need uh the flipping uh industrial designer: you can adjust the angle to which it flips . so it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there . user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: you can flip it up to there if you want . marketing: yeah . so w yeah . but we still keep the flipping mechanism . project manager: yeah we keep the flip ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: think so . project manager: keep the flip live . industrial designer: yeah because i think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that user interface: marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: user interface: uh the the shape is okay but yeah ? i do n't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism . industrial designer: i thought it would be cool . marketing: yeah . user interface: because we okay yeah . it 's it 's for for for more trendy uh marketing: yeah but maybe yeah but maybe we we should then user interface: because we have enough space . h here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button . marketing: yeah there the middle sh sh should n't we integrate it ? user interface: yeah and then h we sh mm . marketing: and then like i oh th user interface: industrial designer: marketing: doh . come on . so this is the shape . oh . it has n't industrial designer: . it does n't aim so well . user interface: marketing: okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it does n't fall on the screen . user interface: yeah , then it 's marketing: so there 's a layer of rubber on the side . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah . definitely . project manager: marketing: so no flipping but just user interface: no flipping or project manager: no flipping ? marketing: no . user interface: you wanted the flipping so industrial designer: yeah i guess but uh i mean most votes count right ? user interface: but if you if you if you drop it it it just breaks . and it has to be very strong because of the . yeah kind of project manager: it 's shaking . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: throwing and the kinetics . oh . we better make we better make it like this . eventually . industrial designer: yeah true true . project manager: yeah just light on top . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's also for the for the children , it 's yeah for people not sixteen years . industrial designer: yeah if you if you 're going for the kinetics marketing: yeah . project manager: safer . mm . yeah okay that the target group . user interface: but there are more marketing: uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . yes . user interface: yeah okay . that 's true . okay . yeah ? project manager: well . i just uh ended the meeting . industrial designer: yeah . i 'm just thinking totally different designs also . project manager: you two go design . user interface: okay wi industrial designer: remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a gameboy . project manager: oh . by the way . um user interface: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: maybe we should try something like that . but yeah . marketing: project manager: i uh thought up a name for our product . yeah . it 's called uh the real remote . user interface: industrial designer: oh right . marketing: yeah ? project manager: with a copyright sign after real . marketing: ooh . industrial designer: alright . user interface: the real remote . marketing: yeah . alright . industrial designer: yeah . i like it . project manager: so maybe you can include that somewhere . industrial designer: okay . this can go . marketing: good . yeah . we should work in our own room right ? or not ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well . project manager: i do n't see any power cables here so industrial designer: let 's see . marketing: yeah . yes . industrial designer: what the hell 's that ? project manager: 'kay . user interface: i think uh it 's the sensors . marketing: see you two in half an hour uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh project manager: good luck . user interface: yep . okay that 's the side . ah it 's it 's okay . but do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ? industrial designer: yeah . i think we do . user interface: or just leave it ? uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button . marketing: industrial designer: yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah . user interface: for menu . or industrial designer: yeah ? i dunno . we w kind of wanted to stick with the user interface: yeah . no , yeah . industrial designer: yeah i 'm just thinking , if we i we wan na make something different project manager: industrial designer: right ? so the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i think . user interface: mm . yeah you are going to design it so </s> [SEP]what did the user interface elaborate on the shape of the button ?

the user interface proposed to make most of the buttons in a round shape which altogether located in a triangle . in the middle of the triangle , there would be a square button and the four buttons next to it would be respectively the channel control and the volume control , just as all the other remote controls .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

this was the children , young people and education committee , guided by lynne neagle . the whole meeting was in the quiz form , in which carol shillabeer , the chief executive of powys teaching health board , answered questions about the together for children and young people programme . to begin with , shillabeer responded to the progress and shortages of the whole programme , followed by the theme of early help and enhanced support for children and young people . the next topic was the camhs framework and its effect in promoting a consistent delivery of care . furthermore , shillabeer answered questions about neurodevelopmental services , in-patient care , the workforce issue , looked-after children , and transitional arrangement . in the end , shillabeer indicated the personal position of legacy that there would be something to handle those problems , no matter what it was .

summarize the discussion about early help and enhanced support .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about early help and enhanced support .

the mental health measure 's target had increased significantly among the uk . the programme well met the demand with more contacts , more staff , and shorter access times , but it still did not completely sustain at that stage . as for intervention resources , there had been good attempts to help . as for the stakeholder workshop , it was successful support on early help and enhanced support . finally , as for the legacy arrangements , camhs element would move to camhs network , part of the nhs mental health network .

what did carol shillabeer think about the legacy arrangements when talking about early help and enhanced support ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol shillabeer think about the legacy arrangements when talking about early help and enhanced support ?

the specialist camhs element would move to the camhs network . the whole-school approach had already been settled in the government while the programme had constructed a relative connection .

what were the outcomes of stakeholder workshops on early help ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what were the outcomes of stakeholder workshops on early help ?

the workshop brought all the agencies together , along with their demands and interests . furthermore , there was a planning group reflection for the next stage to which three commitments had been made . first , values-led approaches were to be developed to bring multiple agencies together to have a common purpose . the second was to develop ingredients for successful working . the third was to determine the priorities of the next step .

summarize the discussion about neurodevelopmental service .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about neurodevelopmental service .

in terms of an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , hefin david wanted to know its reasons and measures . carol shillabeer responded with no specific idea for the reasons and an introduction of delivery progression for the measures . being asked , carol then talked about a broader view of group work , mentioning the limitation of threshold and focused conditions .

what did carol shillabeer think about how to meet the capacity to deliver when answering a question about neurodevelopmental service ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol shillabeer think about how to meet the capacity to deliver when answering a question about neurodevelopmental service ?

carol shillabeer introduced dr. cath norton and his group which had a standing start in addressing neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . there had been seven teams across wales , a national pathway , and a community-of-practice-type environment .

what did carol shillabeer find unexpected when talking about neurodevelopmental service ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol shillabeer find unexpected when talking about neurodevelopmental service ?

there would be only 40 per cent to 50 per cent of families met a threshold for the support , while more people still needed help . therefore , focusing on the families who reached a threshold is not good enough , and the programme should tackle all of them .

summarize the discussion about in-patient care and workforce .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about in-patient care and workforce .

carol shillabeer answered lynne neagle 's question by introducing the progress of the in-patient care programme and the challenge of the workforce . carol personally recommended employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team and indicated communities of practice to make the best use of the resource . finally , as for the language , there was an agreement on the use of the welsh language and the need for enough welsh language practitioners to respond to vulnerable people .

what did carol dhillabeer think about the most important part of the work of in-patient care at that time ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol dhillabeer think about the most important part of the work of in-patient care at that time ?

the most important at that time was the long-term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined-up approach for children .

what did carol dhillabeer think about the community of practice when talking about workforce ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol dhillabeer think about the community of practice when talking about workforce ?

the practice was guided by the nation institute for health and care , enabling referrals to match the right practitioner and the right service . it is expected to be more flexible and careful to use the resource . overall , the community had gradually become standard , doing a collective reflection on service improvement and being clear about mutual learning , but the environment operated still waited to be improved .

summarize the discussion about looked-after children and transitional-arrangement .[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about looked-after children and transitional-arrangement .

carol shillabeer answered a question from suzy davies , indicating the intersection between the together for children and young people programme and the outcomes for children group programme . next , in response to dawn bowden , shillabeer talked about the development of transition guidance and the endeavor to reduce the numbers of transitions and manage them better .

what did carol shillabeer think about the reasons that brought the programme to intersect with the outcomes for children when talking about looked-after children ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol shillabeer think about the reasons that brought the programme to intersect with the outcomes for children when talking about looked-after children ?

first , there was a close link between each member . second , in terms of the question of specialist camhs in-patients , there was a need to bring the services together for stronger working .

what did carol dhillabeer think about the development of transition guidance when talking about transitional arrangement ?[SEP] <s>lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning . can i ask if members have got any declarations of interest they 'd like to make , please ? no ? okay . thank you . item 2 this morning , then , is a further session on our follow-up on our 'mind over matter ' report . i 'm very pleased to welcome carol shillabeer , who is chief executive of powys teaching health board , and who manages the together for children and young people programme . thank you very much for attending , and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee . we 've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning , so if it 's okay we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start and ask you if you 're satisfied with the progress that 's been made since the programme was established in 2015 . carol shillabeer: thank you very much for that question , chair . i 've got to say 'yes ' , in many regards . so , the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services . we developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model . other models that are very similar have been talked about as well , and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist camhs . it 's some years ago now since this committee did the original report , and obviously healthcare inspectorate wales and the wales audit office had done reports in the past , and i think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action . you 'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas , and so therefore had to make a prioritisation . the prioritisation was at the specialist camhs end . we have provided the committee with a red , amber or green rating of where we feel that we were , and that was just before submission of the evidence . overall i would say we have made progress . i recognise you recognise that in your 'mind over matter ' report , and that is pleasing . what i would say , though , is that there 's a still a lot to be done . certainly over the last nine months or so , we 've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work , which we 're not actually leading now as a programme , although we facilitated the workshop held in september . but that 's got a real momentum , and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward , and i 'm sure we will come on to that in more detail . but we know there is more community workforce in specialist camhs , we know we 're seeing children in a shorter time frame , and we know we 're accepting more referrals , so our indicators are telling us we are making progress . lynne neagle am: thank you . and you referred to the work on the whole-school approach , which is very welcome , and i recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well . but i 'm sure you 'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people 's mental health , and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance , then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme . are there any particular areas where you feel you have n't made enough progress that you 'd like to draw the committee 's attention to ? carol shillabeer: this is maybe about what the programme 's done , but really around the broader sense as well . i 'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies . i 'm disappointed that we have n't . i 'm assured that we 've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the matrics cymru framework developed for children and young people . i 've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee , who have owned this , and we 're working together more on this area . that 's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas have n't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models , but that is an area we should have made , i think , earlier progress on . there 's been a general reflection from myself and the together for children and young people programme board over the phase of the programme . i think we started very strongly ; i think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle , if i 'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel , and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months , and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist camhs into that whole-school approach . but , if i could just agree with your comments about the whole system , it has to be the whole system and that 's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical . if i can just say , in case i do n't get a chance to say this later , i was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday , because what is clear is for that part , the early help and enhanced support , this is n't just about the nhs and it 's not just about education , it 's about every part of the system , really , which does make it more complex . but i just wanted to say that i think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it 's needed and yesterday was a positive step . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . good morning . in terms of local primary mental health support services , what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the mental health ( wales ) measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people , and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? carol shillabeer: yes , thanks very much . so , it 's important to say , i think , at the outset , just by way of reminder , that the target , quite rightly , changed for children and young people . the target changed some years ago for adults , so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children . so , the services were working , a couple of years ago , with significant demand and then a change in the standard . i think you 're absolutely right ; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children , particularly within the 28 days . i would say— . and we 've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce , the staff , who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health , into a bit more of the secondary element , which is why the review being undertaken by the nhs delivery unit into primary care camhs is so critical , because , actually , if we do n't have—and i believe we do n't have—enough capacity in that part of the system , then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this . so , i think we will have seen , by the evidence submission , that demand has increased , not just in wales but in the uk , and it has increased significantly . we are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so , we have more contacts , more staff , shorter access times , so that is a good news story . we 've not got it completely sustained at this stage , and therefore the focus of the delivery unit 's primary care camhs report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i know , from my own experience as a constituency am , i have families who tell me that they ca n't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's— . and i do n't like to put it in resource terms , but it 's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family , but , obviously , in terms of cost as well . do you find that that 's a common theme across wales ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think that the thrust of that is absolutely right . so , we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that 's why this is a whole system , not compartmentalised . i think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist camhs , but can be supported , often by telephone , at that earlier stage . my sense of where we go next , in terms of , you know , you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle ' , as you referred to it in your report , is to make sure we 've got a fully joined-up , multi-agency team approach to that . and i think that will need some resourcing to support that , yet to be fully determined . but yesterday 's announcement about youth work , the government 's commitment to primary care , camhs , et cetera—that 's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist camhs . and just a final note on that , if i may—at the beginning of the programme , we had a report from hafal called 'making sense ' and there were 10 key asks , if you like , of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service . they said , 'please do n't medicalise it'—i 'm paraphrasing now , of course—'please do n't medicalise it ; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then , when we really need help , please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level . ' that 's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme . so , that reflects the questions that you were asking , really . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . what are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? and how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? and also , given that the together for children and young people programme comes to an end in october of this year , who , in your view , is best placed to forward this work stream , and what will be the biggest challenges ? it 's a bit of a long question , so , break it up however you like . carol shillabeer: that 's absolutely fine . janet finch-saunders am: and what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? carol shillabeer: yes , i think that 's helpfully laid out in three stages . so , you 're absolutely right , there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support . it brought all of the agencies together , which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list , apparently , for places . so , there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this . in relation to the next steps , there is a planning group reflection in early july , in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop , and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage . one is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose . the second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area , and then , thirdly , to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps . so , that 's the next stage of that . i 'm pretty sure we 'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards . there is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children 's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work . so , that will run alongside . but during the summer , then , we will be developing that framework approach , and we will be participating in the association of directors of social services conference in september , and then a follow-up workshop in october on this matter . on your question of 'well , what happens after the programme ? ' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme . i 'm pretty secure on the specialist camhs element . that will move , most likely , to the camhs network , which is part of the nhs mental health network . i actually chair the mental health network and that 's one part of that . the whole-school approach element is already settled in government and we 've got a connection in to that . the question that 's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go . i am currently in discussions with welsh government officials around that . i can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work . we can not afford that we 've come so far for this not now to proceed . i think there 's a huge momentum behind this . i do n't see there would be any obstacles—i hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach , as we move forward . so , i 'm not in a position to say , 'and the legacy arrangements will be— ' , but i am in a position to say that i 'm having those discussions with welsh government officials . they know my view that we 've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward , and i believe that they are supportive of that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet , i think those two questions have been touched on , the remaining questions . we are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements , but if i could just ask on psychological therapies : you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area , and the area has n't been directly led on by the together for children and young people programme . do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area , because , you know , we 've got different compartmentalising of actions , and this is absolutely key , is n't it , really ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think there's— . there is some refinement to be done , i think , in making sure the connections are there . so , i think , as we move to programme end , we 'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging , so to speak . i am confident—i mentioned the mental health network board that i chair—that we have those strands nailed down , but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the nhs . so , this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that . my own sense is that— . there 's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme . so , in the evidence that i 've provided , you 'll see the first 1000 days , all the adverse childhood experiences work , the cymru well wales partnership , et cetera , et cetera . so , there is a bit of what i would call tidying up of the landscape to be done , and this is the ideal opportunity to do that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on specialist camhs—if i can just ask about the impact of the specialist camhs framework , and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people . carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . without wanting to go back too far in history , i remember coming into this area back in 2014 as i was asked to establish a camhs network . my observation was there was n't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area . when we spin forward five years , i can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist camhs . the programme has helped ; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand , actually , there is a good case for consistency in the main , with local variation . there has been a case for much greater learning between organisations . if i just give you an example—you 'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish . some areas have them , but a lot of areas did n't . we do have inconsistency in that , but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes , which helps to prevent admissions and then , where there are admissions , helps to support people to be at home . they 're all called slightly different things . so , i might have referred in my papers to citt , catt , cot and cite . so , they 've all got slightly different names and they 've got slightly different opening hours . the key thrust of this is that there is a backbone , if you like , of a consistent approach with that local variation . we have to check . so , things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is . that then gets implemented , with some local variation . so , i think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful . there will be some variation . we want some variation , to some extent , as places try new things and evaluate new things . so , if i just refer to the previous question that i had , and i talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out ; that 's been tried in one area , been evaluated—let 's see the spread of that . so , you 'll know my view on internet counselling , for example ; i feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end . if that works in one area , why are n't we rolling that out to other areas ? so , i think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together . it 's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . you 've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care , but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service , especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming . wherever you live in wales , is that help there for you now ? carol shillabeer: well , in your work to produce the 'mind over matter ' report , i clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police . we 've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist camhs umbrella , to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that . for example , is it that because the cit , cat , cot , cite—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area , that actually it 's after that that the network of support is n't as strong , and , if that is the case , what are we going to do about that ? there 's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults ' and children 's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours . so , we are taking an extra look at this , because i could not be 100 per cent confident that , throughout the 24-hour period , we 've got this fully settled . i continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they 've not got that solid place to go , and we 're following those through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from hefin david on neurodevelopmental services . hefin david am: i think , chair , i should have declared an interest here , as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly . we 're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals , and that will increase further in the future . can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we 're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? carol shillabeer: thank you . they 're very big questions in terms of 'why ' . i 'm not sure that anyone really knows why , if i 'm honest , although there is a lot of academic research going on . what we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through . so , in the information provided , i refer to the nhs digital prevalence report in england , which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder . now , that sounds a bit shocking when we say that , but that 's in the international classification scaling , and , of that , certainly , 2.5 per cent is around autism . i can just testify , in real life , that demand is absolutely growing . so , if i just take my own health board for a moment , we usually have about 75 referrals per year . last year we had 300. so , that has felt very difficult to manage . if i can just give you a sense of what we 've done so far and then what i think is next , i want to recognise the work of dr cath norton and the steering group that 's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme . they had a standing start . they 've done a lot of very , very good work . we now have seven teams in place across wales . we now have a national pathway . we now have a community-of-practice-type environment , and we 're really getting into this . good progress has been made . more people have been seen . more people have been assessed . so , we have made progress . but i 've got a long list of considerations that i think respond to your question . one is that most referrals that come through , the clinicians tell me , are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support . so , that is often the reason why people come . now , that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that . demand is outstripping supply . so , our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up . so , if i just take my own example of 300 in the last year , we 're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families , but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be . because we 've put these teams in , because we 've got the new pathway , has that opened a gate and we 've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? hefin david am: can i just ask a question there ? carol shillabeer: yes . hefin david am: so , with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? carol shillabeer: in a year , yes . hefin david am: did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? carol shillabeer: i think we anticipated a few more , and just to say that in my— hefin david am: but not on that scale . carol shillabeer: no , not on that scale . and in my own health board—i 'm just referring to my own , and i 'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place . so , it was n't as if we had nothing in place previously . we had a nice-compliant service already in place , but we knew we needed to expand that , which we have done , but we did n't anticipate 300. so , this is happening not just across wales , actually , but across the uk—so , this greater recognition , the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route , which is really important . what i would also say , and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward , is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what i would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so , a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support . so , we 've got a lot of people who are under that threshold , but that 's a lot of people who still need help and support . i 'm trying to very fairly and , i hope , appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme . we 've got to tackle all of that . it 's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold , because there are needs elsewhere as well , and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support . some of that overlaps with learning disability services . can i just mention a few more things , as i 'm on roll on neurodevelopmental ? hefin david am: it 's up to the chair . lynne neagle am: yes , go on . carol shillabeer: is that all right ? sorry , i know it 's a very long answer . there is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private member 's bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there 's a real— . having the broadest view would be advised by them , and i think they 're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call , say , a 'perfect world ' would look like . that 's the piece of work that we 're wanting to do now . in terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements , about what the big , big things are , we are still needing to tackle . hefin david am: i mean , i personally took a very personal decision when it came to the member 's bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice i received . you need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions . so , i 'm glad you said that , because it gives me— . because i did n't vote for that bill , and i 'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there . but what i do have concerns about is if the increase was n't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the together for children and young people programme has a duty to review capacity , after october who 's going to make sure that that capacity 's reviewed on a strategic basis ? carol shillabeer: so , i should have probably added in that we 've got a piece of work under way at the moment—welsh government commissioned it—by a person called patrick holton , and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental . i think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term . we know that money 's been put into this and it has had an important impact , but we now need to be planning for the next three , five , 10 and many years beyond that . there is the integrated autism service . i think there are some conversations , when i talk about the landscape being quite busy , about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue . so , it 's not just about a childhood thing ; as people move through , we 've got to get much better at that long-term planning . so , that piece of work is really important . we will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that . it also connects to the early help and enhanced support , because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do n't meet a threshold for a certain category , that 's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . if we can just move on now to in-patient care , and if i can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of camhs in-patient care , particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in abergele and tŷ llidiard . carol shillabeer: yes , thank you very much for that question . again , quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients , and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units . i think , certainly , there is some recovery in the position in north wales , and the programme did a peer review visit to north wales , which i think was very helpful . in terms of where the programme has been on this issue , there is some work under way , at quite an advanced stage , around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services . this was quite a tricky thing to start off when you 're in a position where , actually , there 've been some restrictions , to then ask the service to think about going even further , but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce , get the right environment , et cetera , et cetera—so , that piece of work , the review of the specification about what could be possible . clearly , we work very closely with welsh health specialised services committee as the commissioner , so we do n't commission that . we neither performance manage those environments . but , if i can just say , probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children . we believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings . we have n't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams ; we 've got social care and we 've got healthcare . there is a growing appetite to do something different . there is a meeting with the children 's commissioner on 9 july to explore that . i 've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of care inspectorate wales , for example , and we have now got , i think , a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future . we also know that there 've been some high-profile legal cases as well . so , we 've got to move to that step now . it has been largely successful , the work that has taken place over recent years , but not without its key challenges . lynne neagle am: thank you . and , just briefly on the new specification that whssc are developing , that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours . how concerned should we be about that being a challenge , particularly in abergele , where staffing has been a major issue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented . the peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment , where the unit is , the challenge across north wales of the workforce . these are issues well known by the health board , by the way , so it was n't a surprise to them . but that dialogue about how do we ensure that we 've got the right workforce , because that unit , potentially , could—you know , it 's an isolated unit , and they ’ ve been risk-managing . they 've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they 've got available , and that 's been entirely the right thing to do . but the downside of that is it 's not as accessible as we would want . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin david has got some questions on workforce now . hefin david am: yes . with regard to the increased camhs posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in camhs posts—we know that there 's likely to be labour market demand , high labour market demand , in those instances , so are the vacancy rates higher in wales than elsewhere , given the increase in those posts to be filled ? carol shillabeer: so , you 're absolutely right . there 's been quite a lot of investment , and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service . we had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing peter to pay paul , to be quite frank . so , as new services were being developed , people would move from one part of the system to the other . so , in the early days there was little net gain . that has improved slightly , but we 're in a national context , particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine , of a national shortage , so this is not a quick fix . we are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce . so , if i can mention psychology assistants , for example , my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team , rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based . we see some of that through the nhs benchmarking , particularly with england . they have more of that . we 're perhaps a little bit— hefin david am: more of what ? carol shillabeer: they have more skill mix in their workforce . we 're catching up a bit more on that now . hefin david am: just to clarify there , what you 're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the wales system and more psychological staff , experts , in the uk picture . is that— ? carol shillabeer: in the england picture . so , england had a programme called iapt , which is about psychological therapies , and had therefore looked at the skill mix . some of that was— . we 've chatted to colleagues in england , trying to learn—we 're all trying to make improvements in this area , of course ; it 's a uk and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach . because of their vacancies they had to skill mix , and because of the money that they had available—they did n't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we 've been able to secure . so , they skill mixed much earlier ; we 're skill mixing now . we 're using different types of roles , for example . and if i can just make a plea , really , around recognising the input of the third sector—so , it does n't always have to be an nhs-employed person to work in service provision , direct front-line service provision , and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services . and that is one that we will need to cultivate , because , to be quite frank , our recruitment challenges wo n't be solved overnight . we 've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times , but , with the training time , it 's not a quick fix . hefin david am: does the workforce profile remain different , or are they starting to— ? carol shillabeer: they 're starting to come together . there is a—graph 13 in terms of the camhs profile . each year we do the nhs benchmarking , and we can see where we are compared to others , and i would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing . hefin david am: so , if you compare a child in wales with a child in england in the last two years who 's been through this , would they have had a different experience as a result , and different clinical advice as a result , or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? carol shillabeer: that 's quite a big question . hand on heart , could i tell you i absolutely know the detail of that ? no , i could n't . the practice in this area is guided by national institute for health and care excellence guidance , so it 's pretty much guided . we would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to nice guidance . when you skill mix a team , you enable the right referrals to go to the right person , so you would n't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well , you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs . so , it does— . and we 've seen some of that ; if i just make reference to the panel approach in gwent that 's been developed , a multi-agency panel come together , a referral comes in , it 's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented . so , we can be much more flexible in relation to that , and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person , because , if we 've got a resource that is highly specialist , we want them to be dealing with those children and young people . hefin david am: and one of the things you 're able to do—because there 's a lot about the labour market you ca n't control , but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development . you 've mentioned communities of practice . what other things are being done in addition , and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question , but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . so , there 's a couple of things around— . i think there 's a huge focus on staff retention now , not just in wales but across the uk . so , we 've got recruitment but we 've got retention . what are the factors that affect retention ? actually , well-being , well-being at work—and you 'll know that within ' a healthier wales ' the focus on staff engagement , staff well-being , has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services , and , then , as you rightly say , training and development and career opportunities . so , the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well . i think the community of practice—it 's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit , doing collective reflection on service improvement , and being very clear about learning from one another . and , if you 're a clinician , that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward . so , i think we have the fundamental building blocks in place , but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate . hefin david am: what about the welsh language in the health board ? carol shillabeer: thank you very much . there are two elements , if i may , just on that . in your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the welsh language , and have we got enough welsh language practitioners where we need them . we are doing that piece of work . i 'm pleased to say that , over the last few years , i think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their welsh-speaking communities are . we 're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient camhs and community intensive services , because , particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable , they would choose the language they wish to choose . so , we know we need to respond to that . so , we will be in a position to , by the end of this programme , provide that position statement on what happens next . i would also say , of course , we 've got the welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment , and we 've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards . so , that element is very high on the priority list . hefin david am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy davies has a question about looked-after children . suzy davies am: yes . thank you , chair . obviously , everything you 've been speaking about already , particularly about workforce development , applies to children in care as well , where there 's other work also going on in terms of support . can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects , then , with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? carol shillabeer: thanks very much for that . so , we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group , which is good . so , we 've got that cross-link . we also have a director of social services on our programme board and , obviously , they 're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children . i just made reference to , under the question on specialist camhs in-patients , the need to bring those services together , and that , really , is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the together for children and young people programme and the constituent parts . so , i 'm confident that that has been pegged now . we 've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that . suzy davies am: can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground ? because it 's great that people are talking together , but how would that affect , i do n't know , individual members of the workforce , or , indeed , the children we 're talking about ? carol shillabeer: yes . so , if i just give an example of a unit in south wales that is a social care unit , we 've been having discussions about , 'well , actually , should n't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera ? ' so , we have n't yet got an agreed position on how we 're going to do this , but the position is that something needs to be done , and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change , i believe . but what it will mean , i think , in practice , is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors , or we could be designing services that are fully integrated . now , there may be challenges in that , but , you know , let 's get them out on the table . so , in terms of this seamless health and social care system for wales , this is one of the tests of that , i would say : can we , within the next five years , 10 years , really bring that together ? that will take quite a lot of work and commitment . on the looked-after children specifically , we have picked that up , particularly following your previous report , looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system . absolutely , part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health . we are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be , particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances . that 's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream , and we 'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme . suzy davies am: okay . and you 're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps do n't have very frequent looked-after children reviews , because , from all other perspectives , things are going fairly well . carol shillabeer: yes . and , of course , there 's the edge-of-care work that the government have been supporting , and , certainly in my own area , under the regional partnership board , we have a start well programme , which is the old children and young people 's partnership programme , where there 's a significant investment in supporting children and young people , families , on the edge of care , which does pick up fostering . suzy davies am: ah , lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: dawn has a question on transition . dawn bowden am: yes . thank you , chair . we 've heard , not necessarily just in the context of this report , because we 've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention , and i 've in fact only recently—well , just this week , actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency , and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services . now , i know we had the— . the transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now , and the programme was involved in developing that guidance . but what 's your assessment of the impact that it 's had ? because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps , are n't we ? carol shillabeer: yes , thank you for that . you 're absolutely right ; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that . and , in particular , i know that the children 's commissioner is very focused on transition , not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support , but children in paediatric wards , and there is a working group with welsh government looking at this . the children 's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say , 'well , if this works , this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere ' . but the big question there is 'if ' . so , we do want to get evaluation . if i were just to give an estimate of where i think this will land , i think it will have made improvements , but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing , supporting , auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance . so , i talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make , then , a mandatory audit , each year , that we do that double check ? because it 's one of those things where we know when a child is 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , so what 's stopping us ? if indeed the evaluation says it 's not happening everywhere , it 's not happening early enough , what is stopping us ? we really need to get underneath that . so , my sense will be it will show us , it will be better , but there 's some further work to do , and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we 've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have n't had the guidance fully implemented , because it can make a real difference . dawn bowden am: yes , and it seems to me—you 've just talked about having a systematic approach , and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process , is n't it ? so , it should n't be difficult . i know we 're talking about in the health service things should n't be difficult and they are , and one of the gripes—i had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new it systems and so on—let 's not go there at the moment . but , really , this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services . it should n't be difficult . it 's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult . carol shillabeer: can i add one other dimension in , which i think is going to be quite interesting ? we talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it 's not just in mental health , but it 's elsewhere—then you start to think , 'what if we could reduce transitions ? ' , so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better . we are doing a piece of work with government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be . we know that in different places they have approached that—in australia and places in the uk . there are probably some pros and cons , but should we be moving to a 0-25. that is moving the transition at the age of 25 , but at least it 's not at the eighteenth birthday . what 's the argument around what adolescent , young people and young adults services are , for example ? that piece of research and understanding— dawn bowden am: you could probably have a gradual transition , then , could n't you ? carol shillabeer: quite potentially . i 've got some people who have joined my own health board who 've worked in that 0-25-type service , and we 're catching up—'tell me what was good about it ? tell me what was not so good about it ? what did the young people themselves think about that ? ' . because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions , there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right , then . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got some really important questions now about legacy , because throughout the session this morning you 've referred to ongoing work , really , and that is a major concern for the committee . suzy davies . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair , we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work 's not been completed . obviously , we 've got the welsh government 's strategy for mental health running until 2022 , which is a few years longer . can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue , perhaps even if it 's just for the same length of time as together for mental health , or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system ? carol shillabeer: thank you for that . can i just say , i 've given this so much thought over the time , because i think you might have asked me this question when i came previously ? there are two ways to look at this . i 'm absolutely sure that the issue of children 's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time . we have made a lot of progress , i think , as a society , in talking about this now . we talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to . when i was a child , we never talked about it . i talk to my own children and say , 'what 's going on in your lives at school ? ' , and they talk about this . this is not an issue , if you like , that i believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years . this is one for the long term for us . so , on the one hand , i think my view last year was that , when you have a programme of work , you should have a start , a middle and end , really—otherwise it 's not a programme of work , it 's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism . so , my position last year was , 'this will have been running for five years—we 've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist camhs , we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this ' et cetera . my position now is i want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work , if this programme is going to close . suzy davies am: are you sure ? carol shillabeer: not yet . so , i think , in an earlier question i indicated dialogue going on between myself and welsh government officials . i do n't think there 's a barrier—people are n't saying , 'no , it all needs to just stop ; we 've solved the issue ' , but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements , particularly for early help and enhanced support , are not yet fully determined , or for neurodevelopmental . if it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme , i would be supporting continuing the programme . i do n't think we can stop now . suzy davies am: well , i do n't think any of us would disagree with that , but i suppose there might be a level of concern that the welsh government 's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards . you mentioned that you 've done that work in gwent , down in the south-east of your patch there . it 's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of wales . i know you 've got your experience in gwent , but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere , if that 's the route that government decides to pursue ? carol shillabeer: yes . i think the key question in my own mind is : are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward ? i 'm the chair of the powys regional partnership board , so i should declare that . there 's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment— suzy davies am: well , we 'll be asking them to go with the 'mind over matter ' report , to make sure that that 's delivered upon . carol shillabeer: there 's a lot , you know , ' a healthier wales'— . everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working , so there is quite a high expectation . my understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different rpbs are in different places . so , some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships , and perhaps where they have been retained , they may be in a more progressed position . some are looking to have to re-establish those . so , my sense of this is that , i think , possibly the rpbs are n't yet in that position to be ready . our piece of work on early help and enhanced support , in terms of your earlier question about what 's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work , alongside the rpb development work , to get that ready , before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over . suzy davies am: you may not feel able to say it , then , but would be wrong in saying that , actually , it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme , just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction ? carol shillabeer: i 'm happy to respond to it . my sense is that , whether it 's the programme or whether it 's something else , something needs to be there . the next stage is really multi-agency , so it may well be that the programme currently has been nhs-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere , maybe not . i think there 's a view that this needs to continue . i 'm less wedded to it having to be the together for children and young people programme . it may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it 's already established , we 've got a programme team et cetera , so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution . i 'm not wedded to that . what i feel strongly about is that we 've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward . suzy davies am: can i just push you on one thing there ? you mentioned , perhaps , the nhs could lead on the work , for example . is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking— ? i 'm just thinking—i mean , we 've got the elements here : we 've got the nhs , there 's the whole-school approach , early help and enhanced support and intervention , as you mentioned earlier . if that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach , is there a risk that they might become too dominant , inadvertently— ? carol shillabeer: if i can just clarify—apologies if i was n't clear . i said the current programme has been nhs-led , and that might be a reason to change . suzy davies am: to mix it up a bit . oh , right , okay . anything else you want me to pursue on that— ? lynne neagle am: can i just clarify for the record , carol—because we put this to the minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from october 2019 ? are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point ? carol shillabeer: i 'm saying that on a more , if you like it , uniformed and informal basis , we 're doing some work with the children 's commissioner now in terms of— . i know the children 's commissioner 's very interested in how rpbs are managing , developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people 's concerns . we 're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the rpbs . what i would say is that there has been some preparatory work by government around supporting rpbs . so , for example , in the integrated care fund guidance last year , there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health , which i welcomed . i 've also welcomed , literally last week , a letter to all rpb chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per rpb to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element . so , all of these things are in the right direction . my sense , and i need to stress it 's a sense because we have n't done that piece of work , is different rpbs are in different places . so , how confident can we be at the october date that we could hand over ? my sense is , just to safeguard , having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable , and that 's what i 'm talking to officials about . lynne neagle am: and that would either be an extension of the together for children and young people programme or something else . okay , thank you . suzy davies am: thank you . because i think there is a question , is n't there , about whether the rpbs will make this enough of a priority ? i 'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have . just a final question from me : how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme ? are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they 're getting help ? how 's the stakeholder group feeding into this ? carol shillabeer: i 've not been blown over in the rush of people saying , 'do n't go anywhere . ' [ laughter . ] it 's a really important matter for young people . i know that later on you 're meeting with the youth parliament , you 're having a joint session , which is fantastic . we 've had contact with the youth parliament because we know it 's one of their top three issues . so , it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people , i think . whether they have a specific view on the programme , i do n't know . i 've not heard that . but i 'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying , 'we have to have these developments continue . ' it is a major issue , we 're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there 's still a lot to do—and i think we 'll need to be able to respond to that . suzy davies am: anything particularly you want in addition to that ? lynne neagle am: no , i think that 's fine . and if i can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through . it was very , very important and very welcome . suzy davies am: carol , thank you for that . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . we have come to the end of our time . we had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you . we might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we have n't covered , but can i thank you for your attendance this morning ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you very much for your time . carol shillabeer: thank you , all . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh youth parliament—invitation to engagement events . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for education clarifying some issues around the welsh network of healthy schools scheme , following the task and finish group . paper to note 3 : letter from the minister for education on the implementation of the diamond reforms , and that 's ahead of our session on 4 july . papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children 's commissioner and the minister for education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education . and then paper to note 6 , paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children , to the first minister , children 's commissioner for wales and the association of directors of social services . are members happy to note those ? thank you very much . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? okay . </s> [SEP]what did carol dhillabeer think about the development of transition guidance when talking about transitional arrangement ?

the guidance was developed and the programme was in the process of evaluation . however , there was still further work to do in terms of audit , making sure to get a systematic approach to deal with those who had n't had the guidance fully implemented .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

this was a conceptual design meeting , at which some decisions on product components , functional design , and pricing were made . the group spent a lot of time discussing the components of the device , especially the scroll wheel and power source . the main topics in the discussion about functional design were speech recognition and the function of rolling through the user 's favourite channels . the former was abandoned while the latter was adopted by the group for its novelty and feasibility . after discussing the functions , the group thought they were approaching the high-end market , so they could push up the price . in spite of that , the project manager supposed the profit expectation might not be so important as opening up a new market and promoting their brand . in the end , they agreed to price the product at thirty-five to fifty euros .

summarize the discussion about product components .[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about product components .

the group decided to produce a mid-sized remote control with a printed circuit board , a medium chip , a transistor , a scroll wheel , a power cradle , a locator , a radio transmitter , an antenna , a speaker , double curves , some leds and some buttons . the casing material would be a combination of rubber and plastic .

what did the user interface designer recommend when discussing the casing material of the product and why ?[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]what did the user interface designer recommend when discussing the casing material of the product and why ?

the user interface designer pointed out that if they were to go with titanium , there would be limitations in the amount of shapes because it was tough to shape the titanium . also , wood was not suitable as it seemed anti-technology . thus , the user interface designer recommended making a thick plastic inner shell and a rubber outer shell which was more durable and felt better .

what were the advantages and disadvantages of a scroll wheel ?[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]what were the advantages and disadvantages of a scroll wheel ?

when everybody was using buttons , a scroll wheel would be new and different , which might push somebody over the edge when they were looking at the new controller versus something else . plus , many people today were television surfers , and the scroll was a great mechanism for surfing . but there were two problems with the scroll wheel . on one hand , it broke down easily and would bring down the robustness of the whole product . on the other hand , users had to scroll really slowly to keep in pace with the tv 's ability to change channels , which would be frustrating .

summarize the discussion about functional design .[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about functional design .

the main topics in the discussion about functional design were the functions of speech recognition and rolling through the user 's favourite channels . the former was abandoned because it would be disturbed by other sounds , while the latter was adopted by the group for its novelty and feasibility .

what did the industrial designer and the user interface designer think of speech recognition ?[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]what did the industrial designer and the user interface designer think of speech recognition ?

the industrial designer and the user interface designer did n't think speech recognition was practical because it would surely be affected by other sounds if the tv was on or people spoke up in the middle of a tv show . then the project manager proposed to design a button to activate the recognition , but there would be no difference with controlling the tv by just pressing buttons .

what did the group discuss about the function of rolling through the user 's favourite channels ?[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]what did the group discuss about the function of rolling through the user 's favourite channels ?

according to the user interface designer , to implement this function , the users should press a button to start the program and type in their favourite channels . the project manager liked this idea and the marketing thought it would be another great market tool . in terms of the cost , the project manager believed it would n't be too expensive because they could come up with a partnership to produce that quite cheaply , but the marketing held that the technology was available through their own service . furthermore , this function must be accompanied by a mode switch and an indicator .

summarize the discussion about price issues .[SEP] <s>project manager: afternoon guys . it 's gon na be . marketing: rock and roll . project manager: oh . 'kay . marketing: so do we need to re-train mike on how to put his mic on ? project manager: we may do . industrial designer: think s marketing: okay , can he get it all by himself this time ? project manager: i dunno , i 'm feeling like a big boy . industrial designer: mm . pro marketing: industrial designer: probably not , 'cause he 's 's been listening to too much . marketing: so industrial designer: he 's getting retarded . yay . marketing: i believe i can fly . user interface: alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: just what i needed was something exciting . remember , i 'm an old man . industrial designer: project manager: 'kay , ready to go ? user interface: all ready . project manager: 'kay so we 've got our conceptual design meeting . industrial designer: apparently i 'm old as well . project manager: hopefully we 've all got exciting ideas now . marketing: thirty 's really young , eh ? user interface: we do . project manager: uh k exciting ideas . 'kay so here 's our agenda our agenda . um industrial designer: project manager: i 'm gon na open . i 'm gon na talk for a bit about what we 're gon na do . i 'm gon na take some notes . we 're gon na all do a presentation , and then hopefully we 're gon na make some decisions now . yep . well when i say hopefully , we have to . so user interface: alright . project manager: i 'm gon na let you guys talk before we make decisions . and does anyone really want to go first ? user interface: i guess i 'll go first . industrial designer: project manager: you p two ? user interface: yeah . project manager: what 's user interface: component , i think . yeah . project manager: components design . user interface: yep that 's it . industrial designer: presented by name . user interface: my name is . project manager: your name is name ? marketing: jose he man is . user interface: my name is name . project manager: huh hi name . industrial designer: my name is inigo montoya . project manager: industrial designer: you killed my father . user interface: sorry i did this in a bit of a rush . industrial designer: prepare to die . marketing: n name . project manager: right . user interface: so so here 's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . um you 've got a printed a printed uh circuit board here , and you 've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate marketing: project manager: we 've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . user interface: yeah we 've all broken a remote control . industrial designer: marketing: i 've user interface: so you 've also got um you 've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . um marketing: i just love you tech guys , huh . industrial designer: yeah there 's a thingy and a dingy and project manager: you press this and it does th user interface: well marketing: yeah y do jabber user interface: so you 've got here 's here 's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal , industrial designer: user interface: um you 've got the l_e_d_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . um you 've got a couple diodes here for i do n't know who and whatnot . project manager: i dunno who and whatnot . user interface: so exactly . industrial designer: nah . user interface: so um we 've got a i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip i dunno . marketing: p yeah . user interface: uh it 's two double a_ batteries . industrial designer: user interface: this is pretty standard remote . so here are options for our power sources . you can use a basic battery , which we 've already discussed , um th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: i wan na change that . user interface: i do n't know if that 's really marketing: i i got ta i got ta flashlight , and uh user interface: i do n't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: you shake it . marketing: yeah but it 's interesting 'cause you shake it like this . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: like this . user interface: so that 's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy , marketing: and that 's on the camera . industrial designer: user interface: so it 's like that flashlight where you have to shake it . marketing: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh we 've got solar cells , which i do n't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night which does n't make a lot of sense . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: and finally we 've got our cradle o our power cradle idea . project manager: okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? user interface: m battery versus cradle i think is yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i like the kinetic . project manager: so we have battery versus cradle marketing: i g i i figured you would . yes . yeah . user interface: it could be fun . project manager: it 's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here , user interface: yeah . project manager: you could user interface: well it is it is more uh i mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you 're still using power off the grid with the cradle . so um project manager: mm . hmm . user interface: our case design . we have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . if we go with titanium we 're gon na be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it 's tough to shape the titanium , and uh yeah pers project manager: wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , would n't it . user interface: i think wood i marketing: it it it project manager: nah . user interface: i i ca n't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it 's just anti-technology really , you know . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . hmm . marketing: uh uh to me in a marketing sense it 's not it 's not relative . we can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: and what we may be able to do , and i think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these . um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i i think it feels a little better than the plastic . project manager: 'kay . do you get a good grip on the rubber ? yeah okay . user interface: yeah um marketing: and if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand . user interface: yeah . marketing: you do n't even need to lean down to get it . user interface: the advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we 'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape industrial designer: marketing: user interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . so um and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um project manager: okay . user interface: but basically these are curved and double-curved i i believe that the tech department , in their um in their message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . i have no idea exactly what they 're talking about , project manager: okay . user interface: but that 's what they told me , uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved . industrial designer: user interface: i would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it 's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? i think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes project manager: okay . user interface: or surfaces . i have no idea . project manager: i think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a marketing: mm-hmm yeah that 's yeah that 's what i see . project manager: yeah that 's what . user interface: oh okay oh like a wave , okay . marketing: yeah that 's what i see also . user interface: alright that makes sense okay . um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and lcd display , marketing: ooh . user interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh has at his disposal to put together a user interface . project manager: okay . user interface: for electronics , we have these very technical um descriptions here . a simple chip , which is the least expensive , but i have no numbers to give you , project manager: user interface: a regular chip , which is like the medium porridge the medium expense uh project manager: d do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? user interface: yes the difference is , with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does n't this scroll up ? previous previous , okay . a simple chip is required to operate push buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: um an advanced chip is required to to operate um the lcd display , and it did n't say specifically , but i i have a hunch that a regular chip is gon na be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels . project manager: okay . user interface: so but yeah . project manager: yeah that makes sense . so presentation from i guess design would go best . next . user interface: that 's the end of my presentation . project manager: technical functions or interface concept ? user interface: i think industrial designer: oh interface concept . project manager: yeah that 's it . industrial designer: very long presentation . project manager: yes , but it has your name on it . user interface: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: well that does n't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . um so , somehow that thing 's too big , but um okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . they say they could put it to work but um we do n't think so . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . it it it you 'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and user interface: if the tv is working , yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's just i mean it 'll if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it 's gon na change the channel . industrial designer: yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore , user interface: so industrial designer: and i think that 's one of the things we wan na keep . project manager: but what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? so if you pressed it and went , up ? industrial designer: that kinda would r d user interface: well then why do n't you just press the up button ? project manager: man yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that would kind of lose it . project manager: but if it 's just one thing with a button that you can just go up . user interface: even still there 's gon na be interf th there 's there still will be interference from the tv . marketing: that 's right . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it might not be it might not be completely confusing , but i think you 'll still y it 's still marketing: user interface: i do n't think it 's practical at all . i think it 's a bad idea frankly . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah so um taking that away , our uh the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable project manager: you guys know your stuff . industrial designer: it 's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . um as for the point that we making about losing it . well , we wan na small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost , user interface: that i would believe . industrial designer: about marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . user interface: industrial designer: but um yeah i think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we 'll do that . somehow . um so the the what i would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext . project manager: so we 're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ? industrial designer: ye no it 's not user interface: that 's not a scroll wheel . industrial designer: i i it 's just four buttons that are on a cross , project manager: nah . oh okay okay . i see . industrial designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that alone . user interface: right . project manager: uh , okay . user interface: instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that 's up , down , louder , and quieter . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah um yeah so i think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good marketing: industrial designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . that be it . project manager: 'kay . so on to y functional requirements or trend watching ? marketing: i dunno . user interface: trend watching has a later date there . marketing: trend watching i guess . trend watching i believe . project manager: forty six nineteen fifty seven . yep . marketing: see what it looks like . it 's been so long . project manager: industrial designer: . marketing: well i do n't know what to say . when i s when i see the when i see the product i i i i do n't wan na buy it . i see so many of 'em out there . there 's nothing about that product that makes me wan na choose that product over other products that are out there . user interface: are you talking about the picture ? that 's not our that 's not our b design , marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: that 's just a that 's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like . marketing: okay . okay . okay 'cause 'cause right now i do n't have too much to say about how to market this product because we do n't have a product to market yet . project manager: mm . marketing: and uh from from talking to mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . that 's what i understand so , project manager: upper management said yes . marketing: hello . project manager: uh e excuse that , that 's a bit of spam . marketing: and and so yeah i 'm a i 'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that i 'm gon na market ? uh without special or increased marketable features i do n't believe the product has a consumer demand . uh i like the idea of of the scroll makin there are so many people making these products at this price right now . what are we gon na do to make this one special and unique ? user interface: what 's special and unique about a scroll ? marketing: uh well i do n't project manager: it 's cool . marketing: yeah it 's i i just see it as different . i do n't say it 's specially mm i do n't say it 's special . uh i say that it 's different i what i 'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . i give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , do n't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it 's f at the same price . i need something to market about this thing . we 're we 're a new firm . project manager: i 'd i 'd say though that we if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well , marketing: what i if when when we have project manager: but wi with a similar marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that 's as as a marketing standard i need something to market , to make this product unique . user interface: well right i think the two big th points that we have so far are the having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior , marketing: yep . user interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable . marketing: mm 'kay . just remember when i made up this report i did n't have the information that we 're discussing here . project manager: mm . course . user interface: right yeah . yeah . marketing: and and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what i 'm saying is , from my perspective , i do n't have a product to market right now . um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . that 's that is the next step , there 's technology and then there is technology , which we 're moving into the next phase . project manager: yeah 'cause that 's . industrial designer: marketing: and so uh we 're gon na have some new technology to enhance the marketability . yeah uh again i 'm not sold on the product because we do n't have a product in my opinion yet . project manager: mm . marketing: so i need a product . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: well let 's get a product then . marketing: i need a product to market . and i just whatever product you guys put together , we 'll find a way to market it . tha that i 'm not concerned with . project manager: so now marketing: if you if you give me if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then i need to i need to find a lower cost . project manager: so our big questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? do we go basic or do we go for features ? uh d does anyone really wan na do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ? user interface: well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? function-wise , what does that do that project manager: oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? marketing: yeah wh wh what 's the wh user interface: yeah . well it 's it 's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: but would we marketing: okay now what i see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . so from a marketing standpoint i have i have another door to walk through when we have something that 's unique . project manager: yeah . marketing: if it creates something more complex or more expensive , then i do n't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . but again , from a marketing perspective i want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we 're we 're co it 's a very competitive market . project manager: what i understand about scroll wheels is they 're they 're quite expensive to to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i d user interface: th they are gon na be more expensive , but on the other hand , i mean , it i mean it is an alternative if if you think that 's gon na sell some some uh you know if if we 're gon na make up the extra cost by extra sales i think maybe it 's worth it to do it , but i mean i would just use if i was gon na do this i would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . i do n't think volume or do you think volume would be industrial designer: i dunno . i 'll bet first in volume maybe . i dunno . user interface: no we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but project manager: well i d i like the idea of basically focusing the my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the uh dock to put it in to to charge it . we can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: it s i m makes it easy to market , marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: it 's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so . marketing: i think it 's that 's right . i think so . project manager: and if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product 's gon na need to be more durable th thus because you 're not going to be ditching it as often . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: it 's gon na need to be more expensive because of the cradle . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well marketing: yep . i think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now , user interface: yeah . marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it 's own demand from it 's uniqueness . project manager: so our big decision then is like how do we do um like we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh what type of casing ? i personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: i 'm thinking yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there 's you have plastic bits and then it 's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused the plastic with rubber on the outside . project manager: okay . just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for user interface: well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens i think are are kind of project manager: okay . so then if we d d do we want to do anything more basic with the uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for um buttons , or do we want if we 're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go lcd ? do we want to give do we want to have anything else on it ? industrial designer: it 's only a tv . user interface: or from from my perspective i think lcd is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you 're doing i mean it 's you 're not gon na get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you just sent it at last and there 's just not a lot of information , you know , there . project manager: okay . user interface: it receives no information . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so i i do n't see any reason for having an lcd 'cause it 's an increased cost . unless you can think of something interesting to do with it . marketing: yeah . yeah right now there 's right now there 's nothing coming out of the tv to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the a cable box or something there 's no s i do n't see the , user interface: right . marketing: i do n't see the necessity of an lcd either . do n't see it . project manager: okay so the question is now i guess we need t to decide on well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing . marketing: project manager: so , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ? marketing: project manager: what what overall things have we not decided on ? user interface: well we have to i think for me it 's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gon na be . there 's the scroll wheel , in or out ? what do you guys like in the user interface ? project manager: i think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gon na make enough of a difference to justify the cost ? marketing: again . well i think it 's it 's the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , i believe , for me to market . uh again the push-buttons i i see are are everywhere . and so we can go with the same thing , but we 're gon na be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . you know the other thing i thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? make a remote that does n't look like a remote . it 's just another it 's just a an idea , and i do n't know user interface: well i dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because i think , as far as durability th it 's not a big well maybe when it 's closed . marketing: i mean what i see one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: this user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and what i keep throwing out there i just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost . project manager: yeah and i guess th th the question th th that you 're being asked right now is whether is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ? marketing: oh okay project manager: because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost . marketing: phew . user interface: yeah . marketing: i think you got ta g get into cost effectiveness . i think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , i think those are two very strong features , user interface: well marketing: if that 's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost . user interface: the the locator 's gon na require a radio transmitter , which will marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's gon na n is that gon na need a better chip as well ? user interface: um we 're probably gon na have to go with a like a medium chip , s i would imagine . industrial designer: no it 's just different . user interface: but we i we will need a receiver , an antenna . marketing: integrated , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so it 's just uh i i think that 's user interface: it should be a really simple signal though so marketing: i know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button i can push to find my remote control . project manager: and it 's presumably gon na need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep . user interface: that 's true yeah . project manager: but i guess a little tiny speaker is gon na be quite cheap , it 's not gon na need q quality , is it ? it 's user interface: oh yeah yeah . it 'll be really cheap . marketing: or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink . project manager: marketing: you can industrial designer: maybe not marketing: project manager: makes your living room more fresh as you watch . marketing: yeah yeah yeah yeah . project manager: okay we 're doing well for time here . industrial designer: s project manager: um we 've got about another ten minutes . i think that uh user interface: so the scroll wheel , in or out ? project manager: mm pr my personal preference is out . i do n't think the cost is justified for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and i do n't s think it 's obvious and natural how it would be used . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think we have like and it 's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing , project manager: mm . industrial designer: 'cause it 's it it breaks down easier . marketing: yeah . user interface: for me i think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad . marketing: user interface: i do n't know exactly what the increased cost is gon na be , but i think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they 're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . i think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that . project manager: but then that that surely d depends a little on the tv marketing: w project manager: because some tvs are quite slow at changing channels from like so user interface: sure . project manager: if you 've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you 're actually keeping in pace with the tv 's ability to to change channels . or do you have to go through and you wait for it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: you scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to user interface: well i think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it 's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it 's where it 's quantized into you know certain project manager: mm . marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh i see i see . that 's where you user interface: that was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be . marketing: yeah . project manager: ah i see i see what you 're talking about now . okay . marketing: user interface: it 's just it 's basically it it 's just a f look and feel thing . it has the same exact functionality as two buttons . marketing: i i think there 's you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing are television surfers , and i see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing . project manager: yeah if you 're just sitting there going marketing: instead of going button-to-bu you just j you 'd j j j j j j . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's kinda cool actually . marketing: i really i really think that 's a really cool thing for surfing . project manager: i like that . user interface: now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of tvs wo n't re the tvs wo n't respond exactly the same . some of them are gon na be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it 'll be like flip , flip , flip . marketing: well there 's ano project manager: well not n necessarily . user interface: but project manager: you could basically make it so that it 'll i mean it 's just gon na be sending a signal to the tv yeah the tv 's ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it 's gon na flip once . user interface: right . marketing: that 's right . project manager: if you do that . user interface: yeah it just might be frustrating where you ca n't make it go as fast as you want , project manager: other than click click click . yeah . user interface: but i think once people get used to it i i do like the idea of the scroll wheel though . project manager: and if we 're marketing it as a high niche product , then we 're gon na be selling it to people who are buying good tvs as well , yeah , presumably . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: primarily . user interface: marketing: yeah i think so . i i think so . industrial designer: yep . marketing: now the the only thing i i on the interface side of it , is that i i i see the dilemma . but if we have the option of of scrolling at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i can go uh presuming i have , on my television , something that tells me what channel i 'm on , i can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . i know what because it 's on the television . the television tells me what channel it 's on when i change it . so i do n't know that really that 's that 's gon na be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . okay ? project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? you understand what i 'm saying ? user interface: i think i know what you might be getting at , or or project manager: oh i see so if maybe if we had an lcd up the top that just did a number on it , right ? and then it that basically marketing: oh no we could read it from the television . user interface: well , what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels , project manager: mm . well that 's quite cool . user interface: and it c it project manager: you 'd need a display on the th the thing . user interface: why ? it 'll tell you when you flip the channel on the tv . marketing: yeah the the television can tell you . user interface: yeah . marketing: can . project manager: oh yeah yeah no i see what you 're talking about . yeah that 's kinda cool . how would you program it though ? user interface: well you just it 's one extra button . you say programme start , and then type in marketing: put user interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you 'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually . project manager: okay okay . user interface: so programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , thirty eight , enter , programme end . project manager: okay and yeah marketing: and then . project manager: and that just basically flips between it and it 'll go it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that 's kinda cool . i like that . marketing: and again we have another another great marketing tool . industrial designer: marketing: we have about three we have three or four things here . project manager: that 's not gon na be too expensive because that 's gon na be you 're gon na be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . you could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . this may be something that 's available through our own uh through our own services . project manager: might be , but tha that 's not gon na be such a costly feature . the problem we 're gon na have is making it robust . making it last . user interface: oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two . marketing: or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other . project manager: so if there 's a button for each type . user interface: no because you wan na be able to go up and down through the channels . project manager: yeah people are gon na have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they marketing: ah-ha okay . okay , okay , user interface: right . marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch . project manager: yeah yeah the mode switch . user interface: i think we 'll need a we 'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we 're gon na need some kinda indicator project manager: just the lights behind the buttons . user interface: to which , an l_e_ an l_e_d_ project manager: you could have back-lit buttons maybe . user interface: okay . project manager: would that work ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that user interface: okay . project manager: okay we have five minutes . so right details th that we 've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel . marketing: project manager: we want a mode indicator . we want back-lit buttons . and if we 're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you 're pressing at the time , so that you know if it 's actually pressed or not . i 've seen some remotes do that . user interface: okay . just so you know i think i mean it was my understanding that before we were gon na stay in the mid-market range . it seems we 're kind of approaching a higher-end range . project manager: i think we are yeah . user interface: i wan na make sure everybody 's okay with that . marketing: yeah yeah . well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this . project manager: yeah well we do n't have it 's not that we have more money , marketing: did n't you say so ? project manager: we can push up the the price . marketing: that 's what i mean . project manager: yeah . marketing: we can increase the cost . user interface: okay . project manager: 'kay . marketing: so i do n't know i do n't know whether having user interface: i just wan na make sure everybody 's on board with it . so project manager: yeah . so we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we have n't got to a stage where we 're ready to pin down the price of components . but i 'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ? marketing: well i think th i think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it 's gon na cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit . project manager: yeah no i i think that 's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . we 're entering a new market here , user interface: right . project manager: so i think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to marketing: okay i 'm i 'm okay with that . i guess what i just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level . project manager: but th what 's our ballpark as to what we 'd be able to sell something like this for ? user interface: well y yeah . let 's let 's try and think now , how much would you pay for marketing: we have to find cost . user interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your tv remote , how much would you pay for that ? project manager: but you 've got ta think who our target market is because i i 'm not our target market . user interface: i 'm just asking you . project manager: i 'm a student , but on the other hand i would think , mm with my project manager salary , i would think yeah i could probably afford this user interface: if industrial designer: user interface: then you could probably afford this . project manager: uh would i buy it ? maybe . if i had a cool new tv and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which i think 's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . then maybe you know . i do i do n't think i 'd go over a hundred euro certainly , that would be way too much , user interface: oh no no . project manager: but the i would be happy paying over forty for it , i guess , but not much user interface: i would say thirty five to forty . marketing: yeah , i was gon na say thirty five to fifty . project manager: 'kay . thirty five to fifty euros is our sales bracket okay . so the question is what we ca we make it for . user interface: okay . marketing: because one of th one of the things we 're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television . project manager: mm . user interface: right . marketing: it 's one of the marketing features in this . project manager: that 's why the scroll needs to be really robust . industrial designer: okay so we 'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator . user interface: with a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it 's gon na look sexy . industrial designer: or not . user interface: or not . it might look like clay . industrial designer: okay so you can market pe depending on that ? marketing: yeah yeah . bas th that 's that 's easy . that 's that 's not a , it 's a . 'cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone . project manager: yep . industrial designer: cool . marketing: under the title of uniquenesses . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay . the next meeting starts in thirty minutes , although does it ? it starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . so we 've got more than a thirty minutes . um we 've got more like fifty . marketing: well i have is my three twenty one is the next meeting ? project manager: the the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah . marketing: that 's that 's almost uh fifty minutes . project manager: yeah that is . uh they 've they 've changed the times from the presentations . marketing: you guys can you guys you guys can uh create a all kinds of things . user interface: probably . we 'll let you know when we 're done , if we can go earlier . marketing: thanks , yeah . project manager: okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing 's gon na do , look like , how it 's gon na work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ? user interface: i do n't think so . if we have any questions we 'll just email you i guess . industrial designer: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah i think it pretty much everything 's covered . project manager: okay . this one was quite easy . industrial designer: coulda been worse . project manager: always the optimist . marketing: still . industrial designer: yes i am . project manager: 'kay thanks guys . marketing: thank you . i do n't have any emails . this means i can go home . oh , we all leave . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about price issues .

after discussing the functions , the group thought they were approaching the high-end market , so they could push up the price . in spite of that , the project manager supposed the profit expectation might not be so important as opening up a new market and promoting their brand . in the end , they agreed to price the product at thirty-five to fifty euros .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

the meeting began with a presentation on the prototype by industrial designer and user interface and a double curved rubber prototype with anti-rsi buttons was displayed . next , they discussed the cost of the remote which only cost ten seventy euros a unit and well under the budget of twelve fifty . then , the team evaluated the remote according to seven criteria and it passed with flying colours as three criteria scored a one and others no more than three . finally , the meeting ended with team building and a wrap-up , which project marketing concluded that the novel remote fit all criteria and the team did a great job .

what was the appearance of the prototype as shared in the presentation ?[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]what was the appearance of the prototype as shared in the presentation ?

the double curved prototype with anti-rsi buttons was ergonomic and comfortable to the size of the hand and to touch as it was made of rubber . the prototype was also easy and convenient to use as the important keys were right at the fingers . on the other hand , it brought fashion to electronics as the remote was offered in colours of black , yellow , blue and red , which contained fruit and vegetable elements . it was innovative and looked different so it would stand out from other remotes in the market .

what buttons were on the prototype as shared in the presentation ?[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]what buttons were on the prototype as shared in the presentation ?

the button to the thumb was the power button , the index and middle finger were channels up and down , whereas the ring finger and pinkie were volumes up and down . the blue button with the inscription of `` l '' was to lock , whereas the one with `` m '' was to mute . moreover , a numeric keypad was on the top so users could directly key to a channel .

what did the team think of project manager 's suggestion of making a right- and left-handed remote during the presentation of the prototype ?[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]what did the team think of project manager 's suggestion of making a right- and left-handed remote during the presentation of the prototype ?

industrial designer recalled that some acquaintances have left- and right-handed people in the family but they all use the right-handed mouse for the computer . marketing added that the remote only required pressing buttons and it would not be too hard . however , in the end , they agreed to have both in stock to make them more appealing .

would the remote come under budget as the cost of it was discussed ?[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]would the remote come under budget as the cost of it was discussed ?

play-doh would be used as it was very cheap , edible and chew-proof . the energy source would be kinetic power and electronics would be the simplest . for the case , it would be double curved and made of rubber . the interface was push buttons and they would be in special colours and forms . considering the cost of the above materials , the remote would be within budget as it cost ten seventy euros a unit .

summarize the evaluation of the remote .[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]summarize the evaluation of the remote .

on a scale of one to seven , with one being true and seven being untrue , the remote scored a one for the look and feel unanimous . for new technology and being easy to use , it was given a mark of three and two respectively as kinetic energy was the only technological innovation and the remote was better geared for right-handed people . next , the cost was given as it was under budget . then , one was given for rsi and the amount of buttons as there were only necessary buttons . finally , it scored a two for getting lost easily .

summarize the wrap up of the meeting .[SEP] <s>marketing: it 's play-doh . project manager: play-doh 's edible . did you know that ? it 's definitely marketing: because kids yeah . industrial designer: i used to eat it . user interface: i 've , i 've definitely eaten it before . i did n't know was edible . . project manager: yeah . it 's it 's chew proof . marketing: but um , it 's it 's made edible 'cause , yeah . it 's made edible 'cause kids eat it , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if it 's was n't edible then well , normal babies . user interface: actually that makes sense , because i remember like , peopl i dunno if my mom ever did it but i remember other people 's moms making like home-made play-doh where you just like make the colouring and make some sort of sort of dough . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh yeah it is , yeah . oh yeah . project manager: right . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: everybody everybody ready ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's have your um let 's get have the uh presentation ? industrial designer: user interface: we 've got some . industrial designer: we 've got a cool prototype . user interface: yeah , it 's pretty exciting . so , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use , industrial designer: double curved . project manager: nice . user interface: yeah , double curved , marketing: user interface: um but also something that was gon na jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . so uh i think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you 'll see what a nice thing we have going here . project manager: marketing: that is cool . user interface: so , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , the thumb button is the power button . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down . marketing: what 's the big blue thing ? user interface: that 's the lock button , has a l_ l_ on it marketing: oh cool . user interface: and then the m_ is a mute button . and then it also has digit project manager: what button ? um . oh mute . user interface: for muting the uh marketing: and mute . user interface: um and then then you can also there 's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: so it 's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it 's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different . project manager: that certainly does . marketing: user interface: so all the , i mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them . project manager: mm . industrial designer: which is ant anti-r_s_i_ . user interface: so you do n't you yeah . it should be . project manager: mm . user interface: and it 's also conformable to the size of your hand . i mean if that 's too big , it 's a rubber remote , so you can , you know project manager: yeah . 's great . user interface: change that . so d does that uh what mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it marketing: oh it 's so cute . industrial designer: project manager: i have one thing about it , but it 's a small thing , but it 'd mean we 'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one . industrial designer: oh right , yeah . user interface: ah , that 's good thinking , yeah . project manager: but , that 's i do n't see why that 's not possible . user interface: yeah , if we build rocket ships why ca n't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes . project manager: yeah . they make left-handed scissors , you know . user interface: yeah , i did n't i did n't think about that , but i 'd yeah , . marketing: yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like i was just thinking if there 's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ? project manager: yes s industrial designer: yeah , i know i know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse . project manager: mm . sure . sure . marketing: yeah , i 'm sure they 'll be able to user interface: uh-huh . marketing: i mean it 's only pressing buttons , you do n't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . i think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: imagine d are you right handed ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: imagine you 're doing it with your left hand , i do n't think it 's too marketing: yeah , it 's not industrial designer: but we can have both uh marketing: yeah . have them in stock . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: make 'em more appealing as well . project manager: but um other than that , i mean uh and that 's um , you know , that 's just something , i think i think it 's great , yeah , great idea . user interface: do you think it says r_r_ ? industrial designer: i think it does . user interface: project manager: i think it 's , well , if the r_r_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , i 'd say that could be quite fashionable . user interface: fashion to electronics . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . and it 's got the b the black and yellow and blue . project manager: yeah . user interface: plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh . project manager: yeah . marketing: . industrial designer: there you go . user interface: so that 's that 's our end of things wha uh project manager: yeah , very good , yeah . user interface: that 's project manager: it 's come up with what we 've you know , the things that 's what we 've what we were looking at doing , has n't it , all seems to be there . user interface: yeah . project manager: well done . marketing: and all the playing around is uh project manager: um before we move on marketing: yeah , i 'm just do you wan na plug in ? project manager: i need that cable . marketing: okay . project manager: thank you . yeah . um . one thing i do need to do we need to look at , is the costs . user interface: the costs , was that what you said ? industrial designer: play-doh is very cheap . project manager: well , yeah . user interface: marketing: mm . project manager: um marketing: play-doh wo n't last very long everybody 'll go like , oops , it 's gone . user interface: but it 's edible . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: chew proof . user interface: marketing: well , they 'll buy more of them if you eat them , . user interface: that was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . uh right . okay , now i think we 'll do this i could do you know , i can do this o on my own or i could do it with you , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: oh ho-ho . project manager: but it 's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we 're going for the kinetic power . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that 's inside it . ooh . industrial designer: project manager: so the case , we 've gone for the double curved . um and it 's made out of rubber . the interface is push-buttons . and button supplements well they 're in diff special colours , are n't they ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so special colours . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's better for project manager: special form , yeah , they 're a special form there in shapes and stuff . user interface: yeah , i mean , these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so marketing: and special material . project manager: yep . yeah . um . are they made out of any special material ? industrial designer: rubber . project manager: no they 're not . they 're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they 're just simple user interface: the buttons are rubber . marketing: well they 're rubber , are n't they ? project manager: okay . right . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so let 's see if that comes within budget . and it does . that is gon na cost uh industrial designer: . marketing: we 're under budget . project manager: yeah . that 's gon na cost ten ten euro seventy cents a unit to make . and our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty . user interface: that 's cool . yeah . yeah . project manager: so , user interface: and we 're actua actually making a better profit than we expected . project manager: this is all very very good . the bosses will be very pleased . user interface: project manager: okay , let 's just save this so i can e-mail it to you . uh . marketing: project manager: save it in save it in the uh my documents . marketing: it 's already saved , i think . project manager: splendid . okay . so uh , that 's done with this with this um doodah , so you 're . gon na do what you were gon na do , marketing: thank you . mm . project manager: your evaluation . marketing: oh , yeah . this is where we all get to i get to write on the , oops , on the board . right . project manager: marketing: oh . 's function project manager: f_ eight . marketing: okay . project manager: i love the smell of that play-doh . user interface: yeah , project manager: i cou . marketing: mm . user interface: have some have some . marketing: okay . so , evaluation . we 're gon na do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . i 've got the criterias . and we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it 's it 's more like it 's fits the criteria , and seven being as in it does n't fit the criteria . and the criterias are , and i 'll draw this up on the board so we have a box . and this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . so seven 's here and one 's here and then you 've got in the middle . so the first criteria . do you all get what we 're doing ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , cool . okay , first criteria , look and feel . so the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? as it is it colour-wise and is it spongy ? user interface: mm . marketing: so what mark should we give for that ? project manager: i would give it a seven . user interface: yeah . marketing: as in it 's not . project manager: oh sorry , one , d yeah . user interface: oh , sorry , one . industrial designer: a one . marketing: a one a one . so i 'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . second criteria , new technology . have we implemented new technology ? as in the new high-tech industrial designer: well , the kinetic thing , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . that was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new . project manager: . marketing: so it 's . so we 'll give it a industrial designer: well so the um user interface: it 's ergonomic , marketing: user interface: but that 's not that 's that 's a design that 's a des that 's a design thing , yeah . project manager: yeah , but that 's not a technological thing , that 's another thing , i that 's another marketing thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . true . project manager: so on the technical side of it it marketing: yeah . i 'd say it 's about a a twoish ? industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's about in the mid in the middle somewhere , marketing: two . user interface: maybe , yeah , i dunno . marketing: three . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: maybe three , yeah . marketing: three . so criteria three is is it easy to use ? project manager: easy to use . marketing: i think it 's a one , i think . project manager: i 'd say it 's i would n't user interface: yeah . project manager: not if you 're left-handed it 's not . i would give it a i would give it a two , user interface: mm . marketing: two , project manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but marketing: so it 's user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm . marketing: but if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ? user interface: if we 're gon na have one left-handed and one right-handed then i would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: give it a t give it a two . marketing: yeah , okay . 'kay , criteria four is costs . project manager: cost . it 's come in under budget . marketing: 's great . project manager: so that 's a definite one . user interface: yeah . that was great . marketing: yeah . project manager: amount of buttons . marketing: like the amount of buttons , project manager: contains only the necessary buttons . marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like so it 's a one ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: um criteria six . r_s_i_ is it good against ? industrial designer: yes s yeah . marketing: yes . very good . project manager: so it 's anti-r_s_i_ . marketing: it 's one . and criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ? industrial designer: it 's yellow . marketing: is it easy to get lost ? project manager: i do n't think it 's gon na get lost easily . user interface: it is very bright , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: no ? but it is smallish . industrial designer: two . user interface: it 's not the kinda thing that 's gon na slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . maybe it will . uh . industrial designer: t marketing: mm . i think i it would , could be , could get lost . user interface: you think it could lost project manager: two . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: i mean it marketing: i mean it 's not fully it 's not fully like you ca n't say project manager: no , i mean marketing: i mean , it 's not a one , definitely . project manager: i mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but user interface: okay . yeah , anything , i mean . okay . it 's bigger than the average mobile , i guess . marketing: yeah . user interface: but , yeah , it can get lost . marketing: the mobiles get lost all the time . user interface: yeah . okay , yeah , two is fine . marketing: but then you ring 'em and you find them . so industrial designer: mm . mm . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . so , that 's that . so that 's the evaluation , so i 'd say yay . project manager: alright it 's all all systems go . industrial designer: we 've , we 've done well . marketing: it 's like like a number one . um . user interface: yeah . marketing: number one product . user interface: mm . project manager: we ca n't fail . marketing: all done , thanks . we fitted all the criterias . project manager: marketing: yeah . project manager: . marketing: yeah , so project manager: well done , reissa . marketing: so that 's that one . project manager: okay , i i think um i just wan na put in as project manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they 've worked on it , user interface: project manager: you know , both individually and as a team . you know you 've w everyone 's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two . marketing: project manager: that 's all , you know , gone very very well user interface: yeah . project manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . user interface: yeah , during our design i mean there was some s some heated heated discussion , industrial designer: user interface: but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and project manager: did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? marketing: user interface: just just industrial designer: well . user interface: we just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and marketing: industrial designer: you know project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: fantastic . industrial designer: it is . user interface: now you guys have been a a great team . think we 're the we 're the envy of all the of all the other r_r_ teams , . marketing: been cool . project manager: i think so marketing: project manager: i i , you know , and i think we 've co we have come we 've come up with something new , something that has n't been done before , we have n't we 're not just rehashing an old design . marketing: in four diff in in four meetings . project manager: yeah . marketing: funny , all designer meetings could be this quick . project manager: you know , maybe this is n't a simulation , maybe this is actually so it 's like sony or someone like that they 're they 're just , yeah , they get marketing: user interface: yeah i think they 're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . marketing: they 're using our ideas . user interface: project manager: yeah . yeah , two years ' time this will be on the market . user interface: project manager: ex exactly that product marketing: user interface: project manager: um thum we 'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us . user interface: marketing: project manager: but um user interface: so at this stage , i mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? we do n't uh have another one after it 's gone gone to marke market or something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: no , marketing: project manager: i think when this meeting 's finished like officially , there b we 'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in . marketing: industrial designer: y oh really ? user interface: project manager: or six , uh marketing: just start summarising now . you can reply to the same message . project manager: i have n't got message . marketing: see summary , there . if you just reply to that one . user interface: so there 's no way to like predict what our 'cause we had a we originally had a as far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . it was fifty mil fifty million marketing: was it was it fifty or five ? user interface: i do n't remember . but there 's not a way to compute that , i mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we 're making on profit ? project manager: it gets handed over to another department . marketing: depends how much we sell . user interface: uh . project manager: what our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically . user interface: hmm . project manager: the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget . when it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that 's other departments it 's another team that actually work out the mai the user interface: but we have a vested interest project manager: oh yeah , the all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah . user interface: prof profit sharing . project manager: um . yeah , that 's it . you know , we 've we 've we 've made i we 've made marketing: we finished an hour earlier . project manager: we 've designed the product , we 've ma we 've got the prototype , it 's within budget , it 's does everything that we wanted it to do . it 's new , it 's it 's um something that uh that is n't out there already . user interface: i think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know . marketing: mm . user interface: we 're not we 're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: well , this is very marketable in that it is it 's it 's something that 's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that , marketing: definitely . project manager: it 's that it 's um , hang on , i wrote it down here somewhere industrial designer: user interface: project manager: oh no i thi i put it in one of my e-mails that i sent off . um that , you know , it 's marketable in the sense that it 's whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know , user interface: mm . mm . project manager: so that 's something that 's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new . user interface: mm . it make watching tv healthy . project manager: yeah , and if you 're not having a good time with the tv , you can f throw it about , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: it 's fine , it 's kid proof . marketing: just do n't sh do n't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them . user interface: uh . project manager: well , you can break the ornaments , but you wo n't break that . marketing: no . project manager: yeah . so all in all , i think we 've done very well . industrial designer: mm yep . project manager: well done everybody . user interface: right , you too . marketing: yay . project manager: um . drinks are on the company . user interface: industrial designer: cool . marketing: project manager: in the corporate bar that 's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we 're that 've all just gained access to . user interface: mm . industrial designer: glad to hear that . project manager: yeah . that 's it . user interface: that 's it . project manager: well , as far as i t as far as i know . um . marketing: yep . we have n't got the five minute left thing yet . project manager: no . anyone wan na play i spy ? marketing: mm mm . industrial designer: user interface: i guess it 's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . should we call the day then ? project manager: yeah , i guess . i mean we 're gon na get asked to fill out another questionnaire . user interface: uh , right . project manager: um . it 's probably gon na be the same as one we 've done before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: but i 'm not the authority to say that it is . marketing: in project . project manager: um how does everyone feel about the technology that 's been used in this ? the sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ? marketing: i love it . i love it . i think it 's cool . user interface: marketing: being all wired up and a vibrating pen and it 's cool . project manager: marketing: being watched . um project manager: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: user interface: your moment to shine . project manager: yeah . marketing: wow . project manager: i thi you know , i 'd i 'd n yeah , as we said earlier , i 've not never seen that before . something that t the whiteboard industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thingy , that 's great . um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , i do n't think it 's such a new thing . i mean it 's i or in such a new idea . it would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it 's not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's literally that 'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text . marketing: mm . user interface: right , i think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it 's just the first step . project manager: yeah . yeah . mm . user interface: marketing: logitech . user interface: i guess we should end this , since we 're off off topic . so . shall we marketing: yeah . meeting adjourned . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . </s> [SEP]summarize the wrap up of the meeting .

the remote fits all criteria and it was something novel . also , it was marketable in the sense that other remotes would give users repetitive strain injury but this remote would do the complete opposite . project manager concluded that everyone had done a great job , both individually and as a team . though there was some heated discussion during designing the remote , the communication was still great . for the technology that had been used during meetings , marketing thought it was quite cool .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

this is the first of a series of meetings devoted to the design of a remote control , and it aims only at the proposition of general first ideas on the project . project manager started off the meeting by introducing the team and their plan for the project . the team got to know each other better by drawing out their favourite animals and justifying their choice . project manager then invited everyone to raise ideas about the remote . their discussion included its multifunctional nature , ergonomic design and battery type , but there was no final decision on these matters . the work was split among the team members , as each took up the task of the working design , the technical functions design , or marketing .

summarize the process of team building and the discussion about animals .[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]summarize the process of team building and the discussion about animals .

following the proposal of project manager , each of the four team members drew their favourite animals . marketing drew fish , explaining that he/she liked their water-vascular system , habitat , and normally mild looks . industrial designer drew a cat for its independence and decisiveness . user interface 's choice was a badger , alluding to wind in the willows and brian 's books . finally , project manager showed his giraffe , and talked about its uniqueness and individuality .

what did the team say about being allergic to cats when discussing their favourite animals ?[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]what did the team say about being allergic to cats when discussing their favourite animals ?

when both marketing and industrial designer had admitted to being allergic to cats , project manager attempted to propose a situation where they actually were around one . after this proposal was decisively rejected by user interface , project manager talked about his/her experience with a roommate , proving that one could be used to cats if they were around them for a long time . yet marketing and industrial designer insisted on the severity of their allergies .

in the discussion of favourite animals , what was said about user interface 's choice ?[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]in the discussion of favourite animals , what was said about user interface 's choice ?

the animal user interface drew was a badger . when project manager demanded the reason for this unusual choice , user interface first answered that it was because badgers were grumpy and nocturnal . industrial designer joked about whether this suggested that user interface had the same characteristics . user interface then explained that his/her favourable impression of the badger came from books like wind in the willow , where badgers were cooler animals than what people generally imagine them to be .

summarize the first ideas they raised for the design of the remote .[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]summarize the first ideas they raised for the design of the remote .

the aspects they mentioned were its compatibility , ergonomics , and the battery type it would use . since the remote control was expected to be multifunctional , it must be compatible with all kinds of devices . this would also require a detailed instruction booklet for customers . the design of its look and curvature would also matter . finally , the team agreed to keep the battery problem on hold .

what is industrial designer 's opinion on dealing with the compatibility of the remote ?[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]what is industrial designer 's opinion on dealing with the compatibility of the remote ?

industrial designer perceived that the single remote should be able to control every possible device , and this would be rather difficult to achieve . industrial designer thought that vhss would be phased out shortly , but they should still take it into consideration for the time being . industrial designer drew the conclusion that they had to make sure it could cover all the variances in signals .

in the discussion of first ideas on the design , what did they decide on the battery type at the meeting ?[SEP] <s>project manager: okay . hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we 're gon na be designing . um i 'm mandy and i 'm the project manager . and i know all your names again , courtney , fenella and amber . marketing: yep . project manager: alright . okay , industrial designer: yep . project manager: so first let 's go through this powerpoint . i wonder what button i press ? user interface: just do it on the arrow . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , or how about i just click ? okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . um we 're gon na start with our opening which was our introductions . we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit better . um tool training , we 're going to , i guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . um we 're gon na make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . okay , here is our project . we 're gon na make a new remote control that 's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . and how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um we 're gon na have discuss the functional design first , how is it gon na be used , what 's the actual goal here , it has to operate tv , blah blah blah . and we 're going to do individual work on that and then meet . same thing with conceptual design . just the basic overview of the project and then we 're going to do individual work , meet . that 's pretty much the the whole process for today . and then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . okay . alright . first we 're gon na start off by using our tools . and the whiteboard thing , do you guys wan na give that a try even though the ink was n't working or do you wan na do it on here . industrial designer: i think we should forgo the whiteboard since we ca n't actually see what we 're writing . marketing: we could yeah , we could on here . project manager: alright , let 's go forward then . user interface: project manager: um right now so we 're all gon na draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . even if you are not a good drawer like me . user interface: project manager: alright . industrial designer: artistic skills , nil . user interface: fine . project manager: um . user interface: marketing: oh , thanks . project manager: bless you . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: industrial designer: i draw like i 'm in grade five . project manager: oh do i . user interface: project manager: 'kay , about one more minute . okay . marketing: project manager: okay . and who would like to start us off ? marketing: i 'll go . project manager: alright . marketing: um this is my picture . i drew fish i like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing . user interface: marketing: it 's pretty cool , and um they 've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that 's okay . project manager: only if they 're piranhas . marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: yeah , they they 're easy , you know . project manager: alright . marketing: yeah . project manager: who wants to go next ? industrial designer: i 'll go . user interface: industrial designer: i drew a kitty . it 's pretty much impossible to tell that 's a cat , but i love cats . marketing: no i i see it . project manager: no , it looks like a cat . user interface: no , i kne i knew . marketing: yeah , it does look like a cat . industrial designer: i love cats because they 're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . project manager: i love cats , too . i 'm a cat person . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm allergic to cats . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i 'm allergic to cats , too . user interface: ah . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: if you 're around one user interface: in my next life . project manager: i had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know , marketing: yeah , yeah , if you 're around them for a long period of time project manager: it 's weird . okay . industrial designer: i still ca n't sleep with them in my room . marketing: oh , yeah , this summer i , oh i had to live with cats . it was crazy . project manager: okay , fenella ? marketing: yeah . user interface: um , i drew a badger . project manager: badger . good choice . industrial designer: yay . marketing: cool . user interface: well , yeah . project manager: why a badger ? user interface: uh i dunno , they 're grumpy and nocturnal and marketing: industrial designer: are you trying to suggest something ? project manager: user interface: well , a little bit like the yes . um . and then , if you know wind in the willows badger . marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah and then uh i do n't know if you know brian . he 's liverpudlian writer . project manager: alright . user interface: um , that kind of books . badgers are cool in that one too . project manager: okay . and i 'm last . 'kay . look at my sad sad giraffe . marketing: no , that 's good . project manager: no , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . i do n't know even much about giraffes , but i just love the way they look . they 're just such odd creatures , you know . i i like that they 're so unique and individual , i guess . i do n't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . only seen a couple in zoos . marketing: you do n't really have to , i mean , if you like 'em project manager: yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . okay . alright . guess we 're getting straight back into business here . user interface: project manager: um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five euro , and our profit aim is fifty million euro . we 're going to make this an international product marketed in the states , in europe , in asia . and um our production cost to make that profit is gon na be a max of twelve fifty euro per remote . okay . so we 're gon na talk for a little while . um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . so . user interface: now ? project manager: yeah . you wan na start us off ? anybody have anything to offer ? user interface: industrial designer: well , we wan na make a multifunctional remote , right ? project manager: right . industrial designer: one remote for everything . user interface: and everything being wait , we have what , sound system , tv , d_v_d_ , v_h_s_ , uh tivo ? marketing: right . industrial designer: um . i think they 'll be phasing v_h_s_ out shortly . marketing: yeah , tivo . project manager: tivo . user interface: but it 's still there , so industrial designer: okay . user interface: if po if we 're gon na do it marketing: it needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal . project manager: they 're never universal . that 's right . esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , d_v_d_ player , say , usually it does n't work if it 's not one of the user interface: or if it 's not like a sony , if it 's like a i do n't know . project manager: yeah . yeah . something from sam 's club . industrial designer: so we 'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways . project manager: yeah . 'kay , and um another thing that i think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . if it 's just flat and kind of boring th those do n't nobody wants to buy those any more . they want the ergonomic ones . marketing: they want like the flashy lights . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh like this came from las vegas . project manager: ones that ones that look high-tech , too . user interface: but at the same time are simple . project manager: right . marketing: mm yeah . project manager: so that people like my mother can use it . industrial designer: what about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: 'kay . anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that user interface: just bad ones . project manager: yeah . that 's true . user interface: um . industrial designer: what kinda battery would we want to use ? because battery changing is usually user interface: d double a_ . marketing: double a_ . industrial designer: okay . project manager: do some of them use triple a_s though ? marketing: yeah some use triple a_s . project manager: okay . user interface: some but marketing: so double or triple ? user interface: yeah , i guess then it 's if we need to do triple a_ we can , but most people usually have double a_s around . project manager: okay . yeah . but that has to do with the size of it too . well , w as long as we know that issue is industrial designer: yeah . user interface: right . project manager: here we can marketing: yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we 'd probably wan na go with a triple a_ . project manager: triple a . but industrial designer: can you with a small lithium battery ? project manager: it 's okay , we do n't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important . user interface: project manager: hey . anything else ? alright . moving along . oh , we 're closing the meeting . next meeting is gon na start in thirty minutes . here 's what we 're going to do . um the i_d_ , which is who ? okay , you 're going to think about the working design . what do you think that means ? marketing: project manager: okay . and u_i_d_ , the technical fun functions design , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . okay . and the marketing person , that 's courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . i guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . right ? i would think so . okay . marketing: right . project manager: and you 're gon na get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . okay , so does anybody have anything they wan na say before we close the meeting ? okay . this meeting is officially over . </s> [SEP]in the discussion of first ideas on the design , what did they decide on the battery type at the meeting ?

the team first hesitated between double a and triple a batteries . double a 's would be more convenient for customers , since most people usually have this type around . however , triple a batteries would allow the remote to be thinner . industrial designer then proposed that they could also try a small lithium battery . with all these possible options , project manager decided that they should leave this question aside and move on with the meeting , as long as they kept the battery problem in mind .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

this meeting included three presentations from marketing , user interface and industrial design and discussion about core function of remote control . at first , marketing introduced the conclusion of experiment and questionnaire . users thought remote controls were ugly and only used a few buttons . since young users might prefer high technology features like speech recognition . after that , the user interface introduced how electric circuits , keyboard and transmitter reacted together . and group members discussed solutions of wave interference . then industrial designer talked about working design and how lcd display or speech recognition might influence the design of circuits . and whether adding these functions would make the price out of range was discussed . after discussing new requirements for remote control from management , the group members started with core and basic functions , such as necessary buttons . finally , they mentioned something about speech recognition and speech commands and their influence on battery life .

summarize the discussion about high technology features .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about high technology features .

marketing had concluded that younger users might be more expected to use high technology features such as lcd display and speech recognition . however , the industrial designer was worried it would influence the design of circuits and make the price out of range , while marketing thought they could afford it . industrial designer also mentioned that they should care about battery life if speech recognition was used .

summarize user interface 's opinions towards radio wave interference .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize user interface 's opinions towards radio wave interference .

user interface said that they could make this wave in specific frequency to avoid interfering with other devices . a password could also be put inside the wave in case that two neighbours had the same remote controls . if two devices were trying to go to communicate with the tv set , then the wave with more energy was chosen .

summarize industrial designer 's opinions towards whether the price would be out of range when discussing the cost of different factors .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize industrial designer 's opinions towards whether the price would be out of range when discussing the cost of different factors .

industrial designer thought that if they only used lcd displays , backlight radio frequency communication with the tv set and other related things , the price would be ok. however , if speech recognition was required , the price would be out of range . and he preferred ir circuits because it was much cheaper .

what did the group think of buttons when discussing basic functions .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]what did the group think of buttons when discussing basic functions .

they wanted the number of buttons to be as small as possible and only stuck on useful functions . they thought that channel changing and volume setting button was obviously needed . there could also be key buttons which were used to select a specific channel . an individual power button was also considered necessary after discussion . but the user interface rejected having a tv setting button on the remote control .

what did the group think of the clock or timer when discussing basic functions ?[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]what did the group think of the clock or timer when discussing basic functions ?

the marketing hoped there would be some features on the control to display the name . industrial designer also wondered about whether the time setting for turning on tv was useful . while the project manager thought that if time was added , a bigger display would be required , which was not useful for users .

summarize the discussion about the conclusion of experiments and questionnaire for user requirement .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about the conclusion of experiments and questionnaire for user requirement .

users did n't like the look and feel of most remote controls currently on the market . and most users only used ten percent of buttons on the remote control . channel selection button was the most commonly used button , followed by the volume button . young users might prefer to have high technology features such as lcd display or speech recognition function on the remote control .

summarize the discussion about the new requirement and basic functions .[SEP] <s>project manager: so um nice to see you again . uh . so , uh . tod uh for this meeting i will take the notes and do the minutes . uh so we will see our three presentations . um we will start with the uh manager expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device . marketing: okay , can i have the laptop over here , or ? project manager: yep . oh , i do n't think so . i think you have to come here . marketing: okay . have to get up . project manager: i dunno . i think it should stay . marketing: excuse me . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . project manager: marketing: okay . project manager: should stay in the square here . marketing: okay . project manager: oh , maybe . marketing: okay , so basically i 'm gon na present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control . project manager: oh , you can put it here . oh that 's okay , it 's jus marketing: um so first of all we what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they 'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they do n't like in remote controls . so basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users do n't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they 'd used in the past were ugly . completely ugly . um they they did n't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they 're watching tv . um , that the layout of the remote controls did n't match they way that they used it . um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . and from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control . um and you can see they 're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user 's watching tv . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . and basically they came they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . um and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh were n't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . so we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . and fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . um they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there 's many buttons and it 's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . um and then thirdly , they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . we also asked some users about some specific features that they 'd like to see in the on the remote control . in particular , do they want an lcd d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control . project manager: marketing: um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . they want these features , they want these high technology features . industrial designer: marketing: um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . whereas um the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . so i guess it depends on where we 're focusing our our market . um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um i think we 're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's my dic that 's my presentation . thank you . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: user interface: okay . project manager: so , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . so uh pet peter , can you talk say something about that ? industrial designer: well , okay , yeah . yeah , but the user user interface is responsible . project manager: no . user interface: b you think uh i i 'm user interface manager . project manager: ah . industrial designer: okay , so . marketing: project manager: sorry , i 'm sorry . sorry . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: user interface: if i could go there with this cable . industrial designer: you 're scaring me with lcd man . and speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive . marketing: yeah , it 's true , but , you know , they 're features that users want , industrial designer: marketing: so it 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and our production cost of twelve fifty euros per per unit is fairly high i think , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so i think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote . industrial designer: at least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . user interface: sh okay . marketing: it is true . user interface: where 's delete button ? okay . oh i 'm sorry . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: that 's the wrong one , i think . project manager: yeah , it 's still bob morris . user interface: oh . presentation three ? project manager: yeah you should have put yes . industrial designer: because you cancelled it . yeah . project manager: click on yes . user interface: oh . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . user interface: okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . i will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? simply it 's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . and the main idea we do n't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . and then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . and then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . okay , uh about what i found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to for designing a remote control . they are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves . industrial designer: you still want me the presentation . user interface: there are two different uh uh solutions i mean . this is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . and uh also as uh i understood , and uh i think it was a part of uh bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . so for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on tv and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . and uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you do n't need to tune it any way . and uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as i see . okay . that was my presentation . marketing: okay . i have a question . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ? user interface: uh , i do n't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . so they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home . marketing: okay . project manager: so can we use any any frequency ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be okay . project manager: we have the right to use any frequency ? user interface: uh no but as i know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . we can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we do n't need to ask any permission . project manager: okay . and what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control , for example ? and so do they have the same frequency , or ? user interface: uh for this i 'm not uh i i do n't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your tv can understand it project manager: okay . a kind of identification , user interface: yeah , identification code inside the industrial designer: yeah f uh i know about this , since it 's my it 's exactly my field , so . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: it 's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to uh when you start to communicate with the your tv then then it 's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: so so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the tv set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay . project manager: okay . user interface: the password may simply uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . a specific uh remote control has a specific f industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't have to think uh about this because i think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . it 's worth to buy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: and they have these problems solved so . so we do n't have to think about these . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so , maybe you can talk about the function , and marketing: okay . industrial designer: yes . i have only a couple of things because i had i struggled a bit with the software that i 'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . i was used to use linux before , so . but i tried to tried to break through this too , i guess . project manager: open . industrial designer: mm . ah . user interface: industrial designer: okay . how to make it big ? project manager: slide show . user interface: five . industrial designer: slide show . okay , thanks . project manager: it should work , so you can . industrial designer: okay . oh so i will speak about working design . that 's the first slide . uh what uh i have to do ? a look at what the other company okay so uh presently i am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh i did n't work uh with these uh circuits so far so i have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication for the i_r_ circuits and so on , so i 'm currently looking what is available on the web . and uh i wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , i would be glad if you can tell me about them . project manager: mm . yeah . industrial designer: so , you know . uh , okay findings , that 's the point that i 'm working on currently but uh so far i i was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , i mean radio wave radio frequency circuits are available now , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but the prices i read are high . so , i know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the tv do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but you know , when you are not close to the tv you probably wo n't need to to change the program and so on and so i am i am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of r_w_ but we will discuss it later maybe . uh . components to use , i 'm not exactly sure what i will use for the design of the circuit . it depends uh on whether we will use the lcd and mainly the speech recognition , user interface: industrial designer: because the speech rec yeah ? marketing: are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an o_e_m_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ? industrial designer: no no no no no . this we this we buy i think , because it 's rather cheap nowadays and it 's not worth to construct ourselves . marketing: okay s so we just buy a circuit board and industrial designer: exactly . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but i 'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . this i prefer that we should make ourselves . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends whether we take a decision to use it . same thing . it 's fairly expensive to use these circuits . so , speech recognition well , lcd it 's okay because it 's common nowadays to use lcd , project manager: industrial designer: so i agree on using any kind of lcd , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the what does it offer , you know . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . so what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ? industrial designer: yeah , i 'm project manager: or it would be maybe feasible ? industrial designer: oh . i was not thinking too much about the price . but if we use the lcd uh even the radio frequency communication with the tv set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . if we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we 'll see afterwards . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it depends of you if if the m_e_ or u_i_d_ , project manager: mm . industrial designer: i 'm sorry about the names , i do n't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not because the the the electronic device 's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we will discuss it afterwards . oh , this is nothing . this is just my notes on what to use . and uh my personal preference is yes , i would like also preferably to use r_w_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , i would stick to i_r_s . that 's my opinion . uh i mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency . project manager: why ? because it 's simpler ? industrial designer: because because the the range where you can use it is fair . project manager: yeah . mm . industrial designer: it 's okay i think . and the price is fairly cheap for this . project manager: okay . it 's a a price matter . industrial designer: well , depends . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: jus just the price . project manager: mm . industrial designer: otherwise i do n't care what i put there because it 's the chip which i buy or which we buy . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i i i think it 's o y o . marketing: what how much more expensive ? are we talking three times more expensive ? project manager: industrial designer: well , three to three to five . marketing: or ten times more expensive ? or industrial designer: n not ten times , marketing: okay . industrial designer: but it depends what what we marketing: yeah yeah . that 's still a lot . i think it 's it 's probably not worth spending the extra money , project manager: hmm . yeah . marketing: because i mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people do n't expect anything other than infra-red . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's not worth spending the extra money . project manager: well i , oh industrial designer: th they are used to use it when they can see the tv so , i do n't know . project manager: on the other side , we want to have something new . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , where marketing: yeah . project manager: we want to to have something new and so we i think we should still thinking about it . but maybe . marketing: but i think , based on my usability studies i th i feel that users are prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves . project manager: okay . marketing: so i think we 're better off spending money in the usability phase . industrial designer: you the user interface , and management man , uh project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , that 's it for me . project manager: okay , thank you peter . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: so um i have to inform you i receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . um marketing: mm . project manager: first um , they say that 's uh about something about t teletext . uh apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date . out-dated . and uh because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it 's not useful to have teletext . um . so i think we can avoid the teletext . um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for tv , not for d_v_d_ and other devices , because it make it it makes it 's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on tv on the only specific tv remote control . industrial designer: i agree . project manager: the third the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . so um uh we should we should keep uh the the product should be recognisable . uh , uh it 's that mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of in electronics . so , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it 's from real reaction and he s they should recognise the company . so , um so now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . so , mm , are we going to use lcd , speech recognition ? uh . marketing: well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need . project manager: yeah . marketing: and then we can move on to the more advanced features . user interface: mm . yes . project manager: maybe , maybe . industrial designer: okay , so the available things are lcd , the buttons and everything . uh radio frequency depends . and , well the recognition it depends on you guys . project manager: yeah but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? industrial designer: you should probably speak . project manager: i mean industrial designer: okay . project manager: what do marketing: okay , well , i mean the obvious one is changing channels . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , yeah . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: so , turning channel , of course . volume setting . marketing: industrial designer: uh just one note to the chan channel changing . do we will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? i mean those nine plus one or two ? project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it would be a b industrial designer: because it 's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: on the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it 's marketing: yeah , i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay so so we keep all these all these buttons . project manager: maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like user interface: yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button . project manager: uh industrial designer: like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something . project manager: yeah . maybe something like that . industrial designer: or using the names and the keyboard marketing: ah yeah . project manager: uh . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: or project manager: maybe user interface: or something . project manager: oh i do n't know . oh . maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and industrial designer: you mean like hierarchical structure . project manager: and inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch . user interface: mm-hmm . okay . like categorising channels . project manager: if you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you 've you plus plus plus . industrial designer: okay , so s user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh sorry . project manager: i it just an idea . user interface: okay . project manager: i do n't know what you think about that but . industrial designer: so it requires the use of lcd probably , to to tell you project manager: yeah , probably , yeah , yeah . marketing: to have some feedback . yeah . industrial designer: okay , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i 'll make a note on lcd . marketing: we could maybe also c um incorporate petre 's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: so we c you could quickly just through many channels . industrial designer: yeah . like roller for the yeah . okay . marketing: for the channels , perhaps . project manager: anything else ? marketing: so we 've got channel and volume . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we are still s speaking about the common devices user interface: industrial designer: or we are inviting the new one ? marketing: i think so . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones . project manager: what about the settings of the tv ? because it 's button we do n't use very often , but it 's we need it anyway . so user interface: so uh we do n't have any uh we do n't have uh marketing: yeah . user interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we do n't have any access to the to the tv design or we can change some design . because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can industrial designer: on the screen , you mean ? user interface: yeah . yeah b industrial designer: not on the control , but on the screen . user interface: not on the control , on the screen , on the tv screen . industrial designer: well , this would avoid lcd , then . user interface: and then marketing: i do n't oh , i do n't but i do n't think we 're we 're the ones . i mean this remote control we 're developing is a generic control for all tvs , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . i do n't know if it 's possible to to watch something on tv user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: oh . w i i think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the tv to to to print these things . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the lcd and this stuff is no problem in the price . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , what are we doing with the settings ? because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . maybe with the lcd we can do something with less buttons , but user interface: yeah . marketing: but then you do n't want to make the lcd display too complicated at the same time . project manager: mm . industrial designer: two tvs . marketing: i mean there 's always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some project manager: yeah . oh yeah . industrial designer: like ma project manager: oh , the . industrial designer: we we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: or i dunno . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or like children and grandfather 's mode , marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and the , well the the user user interface: mm . project manager: industrial designer: not the user , the man mana tv manager mode . ah , i dunno . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . so we have five minutes left . um . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh . marketing: so i think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they 're required . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's just how to a project manager: we should hide them somewhere . industrial designer: hide them , okay . project manager: in the menus of the lcd or in the back of the remote control , or something like that . marketing: yeah . okay . yeah . uh , okay , what else ? industrial designer: um . yes . marketing: i mean a power button 's obviously industrial designer: this i was thinking . do we need a power button at all ? marketing: uh required . industrial designer: should should should n't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? because generally project manager: it 's it 's a kind of setting , i think . it should fit in those settings functions . user interface: mm . settings . project manager: because it 's not a very current useful function . marketing: uh , well i think when they say power button they mean to turn the tv on and off . project manager: no , i think it 's after after five minutes or something a timer industrial designer: yes . well i i uh project manager: i i think , no ? industrial designer: marketing: but if you 're watching tv for two hours , you do n't want your tv to turn off after five five minute industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: you do n't need to every five minutes to keep it alive . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: uh probably . okay , so we should keep this button . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean based on our usability studies again , um pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button . project manager: oh okay , yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: um , you know , it was nine out of ten industrial designer: okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the lcd and all the buttons and stuff , marketing: re relevance . industrial designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the tv and if you close it , it will project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: turn off the tv . marketing: industrial designer: if if you like this , marketing: okay . b okay . industrial designer: because , well it 's maybe question for you t marketing: i think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your tv , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the tv off . project manager: yeah . so s yeah . marketing: um and all the other f functionality is industrial designer: user interface: yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this . marketing: not used very often . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: like covering cu . project manager: on the back , or industrial designer: yeah . i mean like the user interface: yeah , like mobile phone covering . industrial designer: yeah but since we have the lcd , we did n't need too much button too many buttons . um , okay , just um the decision of the power button . user interface: industrial designer: should we make it a button , or some some something which would be project manager: for what ? industrial designer: uh power button . marketing: i think a button . user interface: a button is better . project manager: ah oh yeah , yeah . marketing: i think it should be a bu industrial designer: if it if it 's a button or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah a button , yeah i guess so . industrial designer: okay . marketing: its own button on the front . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , one nice big button . marketing: industrial designer: old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers . project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: so , any other suggestions or functions ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: s what about things like the clock and um timers ? industrial designer: do we still have the time ? i i just wonder . project manager: yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah . industrial designer: okay . oh . well what w what was the question ? user interface: clock or marketing: uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display project manager: usually it 's already on tv or something like that . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: no ? because if if the tv turns on itself , it well you know , if the time the timer should be there . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . if we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? i mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? user interface: mm . project manager: this is the question . marketing: probably not . project manager: is it useful ? user interface: yes . marketing: it 's a questi yeah , it 's a trade-off . project manager: w in my opinion we should have only useful thing and because apparently they want the simpler it 's is better . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: ah , yeah . marketing: okay simple . industrial designer: did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the tv , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: well and based on your user interface: marketing: very , yeah okay , very occasionally . industrial designer: marketing: but i do use the i do use the display of the time quite often , but user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: yeah that 's okay , that 's true . okay , so no time button . okay . project manager: no time on . industrial designer: user interface: and uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: i think user interface: i i thin i think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it 's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . it does n't take that much place and also that much it does n't cost that much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . if we use the speech recognition . project manager: so maybe we think we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time next time . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . somebody booked the meeting room just for at one p_m_ , and so we should leave . uh . so , um . so now we are going for for a small lunch . it 's uh funded by the company . and uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . and uh i will do the minutes . and uh you are going to work on your individual works . and uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on . marketing: okay , project manager: thank you everybody . marketing: cool . okay user interface: thanks . marketing: thank you . </s> [SEP]summarize the discussion about the new requirement and basic functions .

new requirement included avoiding the teletext , focusing on remote control only for tv and keeping the product recognizable . all the group members agreed . they also decided to start with basic functions and then move on to the more advanced feature . then they concluded that lcd display , channel button and volume button were necessary .

summarize the whole meeting .[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]summarize the whole meeting .

the meeting started off with petitions from members that included appeals to the government to take action on issues such as raising the minimum wage for essential workers . the members then moved on to giving statements that included recognition for people who had recently lost their lives , as well as praise and criticism for efforts by the government and private organizations . finally , the members quizzed ministers on various issues facing various groups such as farmers and women .

which condolences were shared ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]which condolences were shared ?

condolences were shared to the families of the people who were involved in a fatal accident in placentia bay . sadly , mr. dufuor , mr. rogers , and mrs. louise feltham also passed away the week before . condolences were also given to the essential workers who lost their lives in service of others .

what were the accusations levied against the liberals ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]what were the accusations levied against the liberals ?

the liberals were accused of promoting the harmful status quo of maintaining the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . additionally , they , together with the conservatives , were also accused of using the emergency wage subsidy to fund their own partisan activities at the expense of vulnerable citizens .

which groups were thanked for their efforts ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]which groups were thanked for their efforts ?

essential workers were thanked for their efforts in saving lives during the ongoing pandemic . it was noted that the week was paramedic services week in appreciation of their work .

what issues did canadian farmers face ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]what issues did canadian farmers face ?

farmers were faced by inaccessibility of financial aid due to the complicated online calculator . even after consulting with accountants , it still was n't clear on how to navigate the assistance program .

what was said on women issues ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]what was said on women issues ?

funds were requested to help fight human trafficking that affected vulnerable women and girls . there was concern for the rise in women abuse going up by as much as 400 % and funds to support organizations to fight this not being released . additionally , the members were made aware of the stripping of titles from first nation women .

what did the committee say on housing ?[SEP] <s>the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): honourable members , i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 15thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . members will be participating via video conference or in person . i will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound , members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up here on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining by video conference , i 'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you need to be on the english channel for interpretation , and if you want to speak french , you should do so on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we will now proceed to ministerial announcements . i invite the right hon . prime minister to take the floor . right hon. justin trudeau (papineau, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . i rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day . over the past few days , we 've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border , but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems . prejudice , discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people . they are a result of systems that far too often condone , normalize , perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour . as a country , we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door . we are part of it . the calls for justice , for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities , because anti-black racism is happening here , everywhere in canada , every single day . this is something that our own staff , cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls . over the past few days , i 've heard many of these personal stories directly from them . i 'm not just talking about acts of violence . i 'm also talking about microaggressions , which many of us may not even see . that is the daily reality of far too many racialized canadians , and it needs to stop . when it comes to being an ally , i have made serious mistakes in the past , mistakes that i deeply regret and continue to learn from . i want to thank my colleagues , community leaders and fellow canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power . i 'm not perfect , but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing . it 's not an excuse to not step up , stand up for each other , be an ally . i know that for so many people listening right now , the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician . i 'm not here today to describe a reality i do not know or to speak to a pain i have not felt . i 'm here because i want you to know that our government is listening . we hear your calls for justice , equality and accountability . we acknowledge your frustration , your anger , your heartbreak . we see you . since coming to office , our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and injustice across the country . we are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in canada . for example , we have provided $ 9million to support programs for black canadian youth . we have made significant investments to enable the public health agency of canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma . we are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space . we have also created the anti-racism secretariat , which has an envelope of $ 4.6million , to address systemic barriers , such as employment , justice and social participation , that perpetuate injustice . we have made progress , but we know the work is far from being done . over the past five years , our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices . we 've taken action to support community organizations , invest in better data and fight racism . while we 've made some progress , there is still so much more to do , because here are the facts in canada : anti-black racism is real . unconscious bias is real . systemic discrimination is real . for millions of canadians , it is their daily , lived reality . the pain and damage it causes are real too . mr. chair , every canadian who has felt the weight of oppression , every student who has the courage to demand a better future , every person who marches and posts and reads and fights , from vancouver to montreal to halifax , expects more than the status quo . they expect more and deserve better . the government of canada has a lot of work to do , but we 're ready . we 're ready to work with our opposition colleagues , community leaders and canadians to make our country a more just and fair place . racism never has a place in this country , and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . over the past week , we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of george floyd in the united states . the video is painful to watch . no one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed , ignored by other members of law enforcement . the tragedy triggered marches , occupations , protests and , unfortunately , riots . however , i hope it has mostly sparked conversations . racism is real , painful and unacceptable . no one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin , especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all . here in canada , we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming , tolerant and inclusive . canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the u.s. civil war . our nation has benefited immensely from great canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make canada a better country : lincoln alexander , elected as a conservative in 1968 , was the first black member of parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister ; john ware was born into slavery in south carolina but , following the american civil war , was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province ; josiah henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in ontario ; and of course , viola desmond challenged segregation in nova scotia . black canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions ; they have also represented canada with excellence and pride on the world stage , like harry jerome , who represented canada in three olympic games and won a bronze medal in 1964. he would go on to become a teacher in british columbia , once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation . throughout our history , black canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow canadians , bravely serving around the world in our armed forces . while there are many things we can point to in our history with pride , that is not to say that we have a perfect record , nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an american problem . canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that can not be ignoredsadly , not just in our past . every day , there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form . throughout this pandemic , we have seen a troubling spike in anti-asian racism . no one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin . nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated , like the synagogue in montreal . the conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism , racism and discrimination . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism or extremism of any kind . but the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer . millions of people are protesting peacefully across the united states and in canada , and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence . mr. floyd 's brother , terrence , said that violence will not bring his brother back . instead , he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote . out of such tragedy , mr. chair , that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change . in a peaceful and free country like canada , there is absolutely no room for intolerance , racism and extremism of any kind . we are not born believing we are better than one another . we are all created in the image and likeness of god , and because of that , we are all equal . an infinite value exists in each one of us . canada is an incredibly diverse country . canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations , inuit and mtis people . waves of newcomers have come to canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values , democratic institutions , the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights . everyone comes here because canada is built on solid values , democratic institutions , and respect for the rule of law , as well as for fundamental , universal human rights . we must absolutely protect these values , because they are what sets us apart . they allow canada to offer what so many other countries simply can not . there are those who say that diversity is our strength , and that is true , but it does n't quite capture the full picture . diversity is the result of our strength , and our strength is and always has been our freedom . it is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them ; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law , regardless of your race or ethnic background ; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people . it is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off . it gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life . together , generations of canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built canada to truly the greatest country on earth , the true north strong and free . to ensure that our people remain free , we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms , including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in canada and around the world . minority rights must be protected . freedom of religion must be protected . freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected . as john diefenbaker said , i am a canadian ... free to speak without fear , free to worship ... in my own way , free to stand for what i think right , free to oppose what i believe wrong , free to choose those who shall govern my country . this heritage of freedom i pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind . thank you very much , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beloeilchambly . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . at a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who , despite everything , take to the streets to express that outrage , we here in politics will have to be careful , once again , about the words we use . indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people 's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them . today , our dutyand i would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity , our sadness , our indignation and our anger , but above alland in saying this , i 'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in quebec and the unitedstatesour friendship . we must try to be heard by all humans . every time we talk about this , a small part of me surfaces , that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist . it is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history , which in turn shape cultures . racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others , difference . each time difference instills fear , it is , of course , one time too many . we must learn to live equality in diversity , in itself an extraordinary thing . governments in the u.s. have all been racist . their racism has necessarily been expressed , at some point in their history , in their institutions . it has left its mark . it is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination . i am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims . i believe that the canadian government is not racist , that the quebec government is not racist , and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either . i believe , however , that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us . so systemic racism probably exists . it should not denounce individuals , but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them . this day belongs to georgefloyd . this day belongs to the black people of the unitedstates . this day belongs to the black people of quebec and canada . we do n't play politics at the funeral doors : we gather our thoughts , and let indignation and sadness be expressed . we leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice , in peace . all that is peaceful is legitimate . nothing that is violent is legitimate . the prime minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism . the first must be to show our solidarity and friendship . i 'm proposing a very concrete measure , which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially haitian , especially black , but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line . he has the power and the duty to do so , and if he needs parliament , let 's do it tomorrow or right now . that way , words will become actions , and the next step will be all the more credible . in the meantime , our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them . thank you , mr.chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for burnaby south . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . many , many canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of georgefloyd . georgefloyd 's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard . anti-black racism is n't only in the unitedstates ; it 's here in canada , too . systemic racism against blacks , indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well : racial profiling , economic inequality , social inequality , discriminatory hiring , trivialization of violence , excess incarceration , and so on . things are n't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action . when the time comes to act , they do n't have the courage , they do n't have the will to act . people are feeling a lot of grief and frustration , but we can turn that into action and justice . we must not just call for peace . i believe that we have to call for justice . justice is the only way to create a better world . when people around the world saw the killing of george floyd , it left all of us shaken to our core . it was chilling , the casual violence of anti-black racism , the callous taking of another human being 's life . it hurt to the core . there was pain . there was sadness . there is anger , and rightly so . there is frustration . this is n't just an american problem . this is just as much a canadian problem as well , and something that continues to exist across our country . anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real . people have suffered violence . indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in canada . i think about regis korchinski-paquet in toronto and the calls for justice for regis . a black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police . i think about stewart kevin andrews , a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in winnipeg . the anger and frustration are about this : how many more people need to die before there 's action ? how many more speeches will be made ? how many more protests need to happen before something is done ? how many more times will people plead to breathe ? how many more times will they plead to live ? what we 're talking about is basic human dignity . how many more voices have to ask , demand , plead , beg for basic human dignity ? people are angry . they 're feeling like enough is enough . why do they need to keep on asking ? why do black people , why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans ? why ? you know , people are done with pretty speeches , particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to . i 'm standing in a hall of power , the chamber of the commons , with a prime minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this . the prime minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something . i do n't have all the answers . i do n't think any one person does . we 're going to have to come up with those solutions together , but there are certainly some things we do know . martin luther king said , true peace is not merely the absence of tension ; it is the presence of justice . that 's what we need . we need justice . killer mike extolled that people should plan , plot , strategize , organize and then mobilize . cardi b put it this way : another way for the people to take poweri do n't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting . so what do we vote for ? we vote for a government to take action . i call on the prime minister , in this hall of power : if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country ? if the prime minister believes that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies ? if the prime minister believes , truly believes , that black lives matter , will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country ? if the prime minister truly believes that black lives matter , will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions ? will he commit to ensuring that there 's access to education and to health resources ? the prime minister has the power to do all these things right now . the prime minister simply needs to get it done . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , then similarly the prime minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people , the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people . if the prime minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter , the prime minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court ; the prime minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls . if the prime minister believes that indigenous lives matter , he could ensure that there 's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now . people are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words . people are angry because they 're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now . people do n't want peace . they do n't want an absence of tension . people want the presence of justice . people want justice . people deserve justice . people need justice , and justice is what people will get . nothing less will do . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for saanichgulf islands ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is indeed a difficult day . it 's a difficult week . these have been difficult weeks . i stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the algonquin peoples , and again to say meegwetch , on a day like this when we 're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we can not tolerate racism , not in this country . but we know it 's here . as the prime minister just said , racism never has a place in this country . but we know it 's here and we know it 's living with us . we are facing , in this pandemic , two dangerous , invisible viruses . one is covid-19 and the other one we 've tolerated far too long , which is race-based hatred , hate speech and anti-black racism . yes , black lives matter . i want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say , black lives matter . what we are seeing in the murder of george floyd is exactly as my colleague from the bloc qubcois said : george floyd is not a victim of racism ; he is another victim of racism . there is victim upon victim upon victim . these victims have names . we must not forget their names . the first time a black man was killed when his last words were i ca n't breathe was in 2014 , with eric garner . his mother did interviews this week . imagine what she 's going through , because george floyd died on video also saying , i ca n't breathe , and the people who were stopping him from breathing , his killers , are the police . in the case of eric garner , the policemen were fired but never charged . in george floyd 's murder , at least one killer has been charged , but it does n't do anything to ease the pain , nor , as my friend from the ndp said , does it quench the thirst for justice , because that 's what people are crying out for . they 're crying out for justice . the names just keep cascading . i had to look it up because i thought , when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck ? he was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck , in february . breonna taylor of louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there . they searched , and she did n't . what on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again ? i looked at a site called just security and i thought these words from reporter mia bloom , who happens to be canadian , were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the united states of america , but also in canada : driving while black , jogging while black , reporting while black , bird watching while black , selling lemonade while black can get you killed . the killers far too often are wearing a uniform . i want to go back to the words reporting while black , because this is something else we 've seen in the last four days that we 've never seen before , which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police . over 100 reporters have been injured in the united states in the last four days . one woman lost her eye . these are serious injuries . sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot , but this is different . this is another element altogether . it seems that , in this place , when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism , we do it in a kind of cycle . after colten boushie 's murder , we talked about anti-indigenous racism . we talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis . we talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons . just within the last day , the report came down on the killing of dale culver in prince george at the hands of the prince george rcmp . this indigenous young man was 35 years old , and he was pepper-sprayed until he could n't breathe . there will be charges in this case . that 's the recommendation that just came down . we go through sequential moments where we can say islamophobia is not okay . six muslims at prayer in quebec city were murdered . we can all stand up and say we denounce islamophobia . or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered . we denounce anti-semitism when we see anti-semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an ottawa rabbi 's home . we denounce it , but can we get to the root of it ? as the honourable leader of the conservative party mentioned , in recent days we 're seeing anti-asian racism on the increase . we 're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies . we want to be a good ally to the family of regis korchinski-paquet . we want to be a good ally . i am a woman of privilege . i got it by mere random accident of birth . i was born to white parents . privilege is being white . we have to study our privilege . we have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know , as the prime minister said , we 're not perfect , but it does n't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out . i am sitting so close to my friend here , our minister , ahmed husseni say your name out loud , but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding , that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they 're a little worried when the kids are around . it sounds exactly like what the prime minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see . we can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour . in looking at these things , there is something i want to say , when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder , what we can do about it . when we see a bully , when we hear hate speech , we have to speak up . we have to speak out and we have to say that the president of the united states is fomenting hatred and violence and it 's shameful and shocking that he would grab a bible , then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a washington street so that donald trump could pose with a bible in front of an episcopal church . the episcopal bishop of washington had this to say , because she is a good ally : in no way do we support the president 's incendiary response to a wounded , grieving nation . in faithfulness to our saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love , we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of george floyd . that 's what we must do in this place . we must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls , the report on which languishes a year later . we must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying . in 2006 , the u.s. fbi warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them . if we 're looking for real action , things we can do in this place , i call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in canada and identify them for what they are , a terrorist threat in our midst . we must make sure they 're not in our police forces , because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun , it 's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform . please , god , there are things we can do . please , god , we love each other , take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin , and pray for the united states of america . it 's a country being ripped apart , and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring . pray . pray for canada . pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys , the indigenous baby girls and boys , the asian kids . wherever you look , reach out and be a good ally . stand up and say , with my body i get between you and the cops . we have to be good allies . right now , they 're just pretty words . thank you for listening . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes . i 'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the honourable member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): mr. chair , it 's difficult to follow that set of speeches . i have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution . it creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health . it 's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year . a recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water . many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics . washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment . this petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for peace riverwestlock . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i rise to table a petition signed by canadians who are concerned about bill c-7 . given what we 've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in ontario and quebec , the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living , not assisted dying . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): presenting petitions , the hon . member for saanichgulf islands . ms. elizabeth may: mr. chair , it 's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and the truth and reconciliation commission 's calls to action . there is a call to respect the wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle rcmp exclusion zones . this petition came some time ago . some of these issues have been dealt with . i am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place . i will take this moment if i may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that will conclude the presenting of petitions . i would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the house if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table . that would be most appreciated . we 'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute . we 'll start statements by members with mr. weiler , the member for west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country . mr. patrick weiler (west vancouversunshine coastsea to sky country, lib.): mr. chair , i continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis . in many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant . nowhere is this more true than on the sunshine coast . dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the sunshine coast community task force to coordinate local government , non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community . social enterprises banded together to form the sunshine coast food service response , which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks . persephone brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands . the 101 brewhouse + distillery and bruinwood distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers . covid-19 , like all crises , has highlighted true leadership in our society , and i am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for medicine hatcardstonwarner , mr. motz . mr. glen motz (medicine hatcardstonwarner, cpc): mr. chair , the prime minister and his cabinet have shown they 're unwilling to put the protection and safety of canadians ahead of political interests . they themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country . the prime minister told canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence . either purposely or because of ignorance , he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence . the minister of public safety said he would n't target hunters , but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence . they have weakened the ability to protect our borders . they have ignored our rampant drug crisis , and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes , all while saying they take these issues very seriously . today they tell us they are banning a new liberal-invented type of firearm , a military-style assault rifle . it 's time to be honest with canadians . the liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters , farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs , gangs , illegal smuggling and crime . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sgro , the hon . member for humber riverblack creek . hon. judy a. sgro (humber riverblack creek, lib.): mr. chair , it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity . on that note , today i wish to recognize the work of the humber river hospital in my riding of humber riverblack creek and to congratulate them on the success of their humber front-line support fund and ppe drive . not only have they been on the front lines of the covid-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy , but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond , the humber river hospital has raised over $ 1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment . this will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy . i thank all those brave workers at the hospital , and i thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for abitibitmiscamingue , mr.lemire , to take the floor . mr. sbastien lemire (abitibitmiscamingue, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior . stephanlavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life . for several years , he had been using his fight against cancer , which he led with the help of natural products only , to ensure cancer services and care were improved , particularly in regions far from major centres . mayor of preissac , in the rcm of abitibi , stephanlavoie passed away yesterday . i would like to extend my condolences to his wife , anabelle , to his entire family and especially to his daughter , astrid , who is only 20months old . through his humanism , stephanlavoie was a warrior , a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us . to me , he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father . my thoughts also go out to the citizens of preissac , to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy , and to the leaders of the abitibi community . in our first conversation , he said to me , and i hope the house will echo it forever , that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind . stephan , rest in peace , dear friend . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for montroyal , mr.housefather , has the floor . mr. anthony housefather (mount royal, lib.): it is with great sadness that i rise today to pay tribute to tristan roy , after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago . born in saint-fabien-sur-mer , tristan became a pillar of the montroyal community in1997 when he bought the old montroyal newspaper . when the city 's oldest newspaper , the tmr weekly post ceased operations , tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the tmr poste de mont-royal . he created a truly bilingual newspaper , ensuring that tmr residents could receive their news in both french and english . his editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight . i join mayor philippe roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to tristan 's wife , anne-marie , his daughter , aril , and his son , lancelot . we all considered tristan to be a friend , an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be . he will be sorely missed . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauce , mr.lehoux , has the floor . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): mr.chair , if you did n't already know , people from beauce are proud . there is marie-philippoulin of beauceville , who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year , or antonyauclair of notre-dame-des-pins . antonyauclair said , in a cbc article , that beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the nfl . there is also guillaumecouture , from sainte-marie , who made his mother very proud , and everyone from beauce indirectly , on the program les chefs again last night . it is this same pride that i see throughout the region , with companies like revtech systmes , in saint-joseph-de-beauce , or purihaze , in sainte-marie , which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces . there are also local purchasing initiatives such as the # onlaici campaign by the nouvelle-beauce chamber of commerce and industry or achetons beauceron , by the saint-georges chamber of commerce . today i have but two words for my constituents : thank you . i thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it . i thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours . i thank them for being proud and being residents of beauce . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go now to the member for don valley east , ms. ratansi . ms. yasmin ratansi (don valley east, lib.): mr. chair , our government has shown leadership during the covid-19 pandemic by ensuring that canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need . eight million canadians are receiving the canada emergency response benefit . the canada emergency business account and the canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic . seniors received top-ups to the oas and gis , and families , the child care benefit . all of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of don valley east . the feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs . many canadians have shown generosity during this crisis . i want to particularly thank saravanaa bhavan and happy pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for vaughanwoodbridge , mr. sorbara . mr. francesco sorbara (vaughanwoodbridge, lib.): mr. chair , even though this year 's festivities for italian heritage month will be done differently , the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country . virtual events have seen italian canadians , through their generosity , raise over $ 1 million to help italy during covid-19 . today , june 2 , italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day italian republic . the italian canadian story remains one of passion , an adopted homeland filled with hard work , sacrifice and optimism . generations of italian canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous canada that we know today . our diversity is our strength , and i 'm proud to be italian canadian . let 's all join together in proudly celebrating italian heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for calgary skyview , ms. sahota . ms. jag sahota (calgary skyview, cpc): mr. chair , as communities begin to ease restrictions , i remain mystified that , according to this government , parliament is not an essential service . if it were up to the prime minister , he would not have to answer to anyone . that is not how democracy works . we in the opposition have been long calling for the return of parliament , which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines . canadians deserve to be represented in the house of commons by the elected member of parliament . while the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important , it is equally important to bring those voices back to ottawa to debate , to question and to hold the government to account . this is fundamental to the role of an elected representative . the role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight . our role as members of parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present . this is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime . now is not the time to hide behind a podium . if this government were doing the best job for canadians , they would not need to hide . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for brampton east , mr. sidhu . mr. maninder sidhu (brampton east, lib.): mr. chair , i would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of brampton east . this is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across canada . khalsa aid has been providing food supplies with the help of sperenza banquet hall , which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of brampton east . care4cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to good shepherd ministries to lessen their load . navraj brar at pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the peel regional police . aujla salon and spa has partnered with globalmedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks . i would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers , taxi drivers , grocery store clerks , nurses , doctors , paramedics and countless other front-line heroes . we see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day . thank you to everyone in brampton east who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need . you are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as canadians when we come together and support each other . i am truly honoured to represent you in ottawa . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for wellingtonhalton hills , mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): mr. chair , the house of commons is shut down . let 's be clear . this is not the house of commons . it 's a committee where only statements , petitions and questions are allowed . there is no power to introduce motions , to test confidence or to vote . the government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform . they tried to give the pmo the control over this house in motion 6 , and yesterday 's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election . now they 've shuttered parliament . parliament sat through two world wars , the october crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test , but not now . the people 's representatives need to sit . people need their representation . parliament and this house of commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for reginaqu'appelle . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many canadians : sickness , losing loved ones , job losses , economic hardships , loneliness and isolation . the pandemic has taken its toll on so many . it is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope . mosques , churches , synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities . whether it 's providing meals to the hungry , clothing for the cold , or technology for those who need it most , these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that canadians are known for . while there are too many groups to mention them all , i want to thank vikas sharma and care4cause out of brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the gta . this group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need . thank you , and god bless all the volunteers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we will go to the honourable member for winnipeg centre . ms. gazan , go ahead . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , i rise today in honour of national indigenous history month to speak truth about a history of racism in canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life , freedom , respect and dignity . even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past april . this is not a coincidence . we have statistics . we have research , and we have stories of loved ones lost . we know it , and we see it in our lives every day . we need to address police violence throughout this country . canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all . there will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for beauportlimoilou , mrs.vignola , has the floor . mrs. julie vignola (beauportlimoilou, bq): mr.chair , canada post is literally not delivering the goods . but the postal service is an essential service , and even more so today because everything is done online , even local shopping . the current crisis partly explains the congestion , but it is mainly due to the fact that canada post forgot to join the 21stcentury . it has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars . its platform is n't effective . it 's now delivering more parcels , but it 's losing money . there 's a statement to make here , right now . in the immediate term , canada post must deal with the delays , and to do so , it needs the help of the government of canada . canada post needs to hire staff . if a collective agreement had finally been signed , it would make it easier to hire staff . we have been waiting for two and a half years . a premium for essential workers might also be appropriate . as i said , the postal service is an essential service , and it 's time to give it the importance this status imposes . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for calgary centre . mr. mclean , go ahead . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): mr. chair , the prospects in canada 's oil fields are bleak in the near term . capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low . this is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our gdp , our balance of trade , and whose taxes support the social programs canadians enjoy , $ 108 billion in gdp , $ 8 billion per year in government revenues , $ 77 billion in trade surplus . it is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western canadians . we 're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000 , including 11,000 indigenous canadians . we 're talking about an industry that contributes 75 % of canada 's investment in clean technology . however , canada 's resource industry will still be resilient . bad policy can not permanently erase the work , the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers , and their efforts to continue building a great country . thank you . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for winnipeg south . mr. duguid , go ahead . mr. terry duguid (winnipeg south, lib.): mr. chair , today i want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at victoria general hospital , who are serving patients in our community here in winnipeg south . every day , doctors , nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most . whether it 's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using ipads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package , staff at the vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier . i would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in winnipeg south that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the vic . folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary canadians , and it is a great honour to represent them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this concludes the period for statements by members . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . the honourable leader of the opposition . hon. andrew scheer: mr.chair , the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication . franoislegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in quebec stay until the fall . the prime minister said no . i 'd like to hear the prime minister tell us why they ca n't stay . right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , like all canadians , i am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the canadian armed forces are doing in long-term care facilities in quebec and ontario . thanks to their reports , we 've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared . the work our military is doing is extraordinary . we will continue to support them , but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities is n't a long-term solution . therefore , we are going to work with quebec to find better long-term solutions . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , now that bell canada has decided to partner with ericsson to deliver its 5g network , the liberals will undoubtedly ban huawei , but the liberal inaction on huawei is just another example of this government 's weak leadership . instead of deciding for himself a year ago , the prime minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him . why could n't the prime minister have shown some backbone and banned huawei a year ago ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts , to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community , which has been looking into this issue . we know we need to make sure that canadian businesses , canadians and canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world . that has guided our approach on this from the beginning . hon. andrew scheer: the fact of the matter , mr chair , is that it has n't . the former public safety minister , ralph goodale , promised in this house over a year ago that an answer on huawei would be coming . here we are , it 's june 2 , 2020 , and they still have n't made a decision . on another topic , mr. chair , the president of the treasury board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis . i guess the minister of infrastructure did n't get that letter . she 's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the canada infrastructure bank . at a time when canadians are struggling , it is disgusting that the liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing . will the prime minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank received ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the mandate of the canada infrastructure bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of canada 's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital . the remuneration range of the former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . the opposition is looking backward . we 're moving forward . the bank is moving into its next phase of development , now under the leadership of the new board chair , michael sabia , and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , only to a liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing . the ceo of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus . i did n't ask a question about the remuneration . i did n't ask a question about the salary . this individual received a bonus . how much was that bonus ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , as i said , the remuneration range of this former ceo has been in the public domain for more than two years . in regard to further payments , we do not comment on personal hr and financial information of individuals in government . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , again , i did not ask about the remuneration . i asked about the bonus . the canada infrastructure bank was a liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers . even with that model , do you know how many projects they completed ? zero . yet , the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the prime minister . apparently , to the liberals , he was doing a good job . they might try to claim that it 's arm 's length and that they ca n't divulge this information , but we know that minister champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the canada infrastructure bank 's ceo . it 's a simple question . how much did that individual receive ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , five years ago , when we first got elected , we had to turn around the underinvestment that stephen harper 's conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country . even during the depths of the 2008 recession , the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs . they went into debt and did n't have anything to show for it . we 're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country . we 're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable member for beloeilchambly has the floor . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , well before 1867 , in what became quebec , in new brunswick , in acadia , in ontario and in the west , lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of canada and quebec . it can therefore be inferred that canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of canada . could the prime minister read his answer to this question : who pays for the health transfers to the provinces ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve canadians . in times of crisis , but also in good times , canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need . that is exactly what we are doing . mr. yves-franois blanchet: let me remind the prime minister that all the provinces and quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable . who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of quebec and canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we have worked with quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers . we have made transfers of $ 500million , that 's halfabillion dollars , because of the recent covid-19 crisis . we will continue to work with the provinces in the long term . but , for the moment , we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , the conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy , and i congratulate them for that . who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the liberal party of canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , since this crisis began , we have made investments to protect jobs and workers , including accountants , human resources managers and receptionists . we are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now , but some companies are under threat because the liberal party is a little richer . who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender ? one company has been awarded a private contract , probably a foreign multinational , probably for 2021 , while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in quebec and in canada . who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the government of canada 's work ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , we are in a crisis . we are in the process of helping workers and helping canadians by means of measures like the canada emergency response benefit , the canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies , we will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together . mr. yves-franois blanchet: fundamentally , my impression was that , in a crisis , civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions . i see that , in this case , and in all its operations , the government of canada takes money , about 20 % of which comes from quebec , and gives it to a private company , possibly a foreign company , so that it can tell us what will happen , although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already . is the prime minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy . that is exactly what we are doing . we are here for workers , we are here for families , we are here for our seniors and for our students . we will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens . that is what canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.blanchet , you have about 40seconds left . mr. yves-franois blanchet: mr.chair , as i see it , the prime minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers ' money , a part of which is going into his party 's bank account for the next election . is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of quebec , a role that is currently protected by a crisis ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr.chair , all across the country , including in quebec , people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing . we are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent . that is what people expected from this government as a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to the honourable member for burnaby south , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , people are fed up with pretty words from people in power . the prime minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that canada is faced with . will the prime minister end racial profiling in canada against black people once and for all ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism , systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the un international decade for people of african descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone . we have made significant steps forward , but there is so much to do , and i look forward to working with all members in this house to do just that . mr. jagmeet singh: i did not hear an answer . will the prime minister end the racial profiling of black people in canada ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized canadians , including indigenous canadians and black canadians . we know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system . we know we need to work on all the determinants of that . we will work as a country together . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister make sure canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of covid-19 on racialized people , particularly indigenous and black people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , not just on covid-19 but on all ranges of data , we 've made investments over the past years to statistics canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion . we need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities . disaggregated data will help , and we 're working with provinces on the covid-19 data . mr. jagmeet singh: we know people are frustrated with anti-black racism . people are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism . will the prime minister commit to ending the over-incarceration , over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , i referred to that in an earlier answer . yes , we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized canadians are reduced . there are many measures we 're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer , to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it . mr. jagmeet singh: here are two specific things we can do . i asked the prime minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court , and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry . we have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward . many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that , and that has delayed the putting out of the report . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that . mr. jagmeet singh: will the prime minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the ndp needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years , and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring . this is something we committed to canadians and we are doing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , the prime minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality . they do not have access to clean drinking water , and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories . will the prime minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , that was a commitment we made to canadians and a commitment we are keeping . the member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made . there has been significant progress made . we are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories . it would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there . there is good news and there is challenging news . we are working on those together . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the honourable member for carleton , mr. poilievre . hon. pierre poilievre (carleton, cpc): mr. chair , what share of canada 's national debt is owed to foreign lenders ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner , and we 'll continue to do that . hon. pierre poilievre: how much does the government of canada owe to the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we would be happy to provide information . if the member would like to send my office questions directly , i 'd be happy to provide this information . hon. pierre poilievre: it turns out i did a week ago . they still have n't provided answers to the questions , in particular the question regarding who owns canada 's foreign-held debt . we know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners . how much of that debt is owned by lenders from the people 's republic of china ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i said , we 'd be happy to reply to these questions directly . we 'll do so . we 'll get to it in order , as we work through this crisis , making sure we focus on canadians first . hon. pierre poilievre: how much is owned by lenders from saudi arabia ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , we 'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: which i have . mr. chair , moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people , how much would a 1 % increase in the effective interest rate on canada 's national debt cost canadian taxpayers ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly . i 'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he 'd like to send those directly to my office . hon. pierre poilievre: all right , mr. chair , we 'll try a different question , then , as we 're not getting any answers . we have lower interest rates than ever before . normally , it means you lock in those rates for the long run . anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low . what percentage of canada 's national debt is locked in for more than five years ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd be happy to get this information to the member , but i would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the government of canada , we look at the short term , the medium term and the long term . we think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country . hon. pierre poilievre: mr. chair , it turns out , according to department of finance officials , that less than 3 % of canada 's recently added debt since march is for terms of more than five years . why has this minister made canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $ 371.5 billion of new debt he 's added in the last two and a half months ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to manage the treasury function of the government of canada in a responsible way , making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term , a medium term and a long term , which we 've been doing as the government of canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well . hon. pierre poilievre: canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they 're looking to get the best rate . let 's move on to the canadian household . the average household was $ 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began . how many canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , again , we 'd be happy to get calculations to the member . i would make the observation that what we 've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support canadians and support canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do n't have access to income because they 're actually at home . we think that has supported them in a very , very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 30 seconds left , mr. poilievre . go ahead . hon. pierre poilievre: unfortunately , we will have a $ 1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end . how much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by , say , 1 % ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as i 've said to the house previously , we do not intend to raise taxes . what the member opposite is suggesting is that we should n't be investing to support canadians . i think the approach we 've taken , with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy , has been particularly critical for enabling canadians to get through a very challenging time . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the floor goes to the honourable member for beauce , mr.lehoux . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , my question goes to the minister of agriculture and agri-food . day after day , i speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the standing committee on agriculture and agri-food . the consensus is very clear : the business risk management programs are not working . when will the minister become involved and make major changes to those programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , we have made commitments to producers all across the country . some programs are already provided , including the risk management programs . i am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them . we have also increased our contribution to various other programs , specifically in the meat sector , for pork or beef producers , and food processors . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , i have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now . could the minister simply give us a date ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives . in addition , i am working together with my provincial colleagues . we are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance . then , we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60 % , even if a province or territory does not participate . have the provinces received the money , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: here is how it works . through the agrirecovery program , we have provided $ 50million for pork producers and $ 50million for beef producers . the program is available everywhere , but the provinces are responsible for implementing it . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , when will that transfer be made ? can the minister simply give us a date ? that is all we are asking . hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would really like to be able to give a date , but the answer depends on each of the provinces . the provinces have to implement the program . mr. richard lehoux: however , mr.chair , the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds , whether or not the provinces add any to the program . to date , we still have no answer in that regard . how does the minister of agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by july , when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers of agriculture to october ? we have been meeting by zoom for some time now . why was that not able to be an option ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i meet with my provincial colleagues every week , either by conference call or by zoom . i can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces . as for the agrirecovery program , once again , the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40 % or not , in whole or in part . however , our federal commitment on the 60 % share is firm . mr. richard lehoux: mr.chair , if i understand correctly , there will be no changes to the various programs before november . the sectors of agriculture under supply management , like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency , who have been promised compensation for a long time , want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country . hon. marie-claude bibeau: i know that poultry , egg and milk producers work extremely hard . our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm . at the moment , we are concentrating on emergency programs . we will then proceed with that compensation . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.lehoux , you have about 30seconds left . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . as i see it , i still have not had an answer . the country is moving towards more automation . i am thinking , for example , about the advances that many smes and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies . unfortunately , in the regions , the internet is far from adequate . when will i be able to tell my constituents that reliable internet service will be available in their homes ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: i assure you that we recognize the importance of the internet in rural regions . i myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day . we are working with our colleagues , the minister of innovation , science and industry and the minister of rural economic development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines . the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): we 'll now proceed to mr. motz . mr. glen motz: mr. chair , for the minister of public safety , minister blair , how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since may 1 ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): my understanding is that an order in council was made on may 1 , and we have not made any changes to that order in council . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . how many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date ? hon. bill blair: i suspect the member may be referring to the work that the rcmp has been doing through the canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed . the chair: before we go to mr. motz , i want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute . we are getting some voices in the background . mr. motz , please continue . mr. glen motz: how many .22 calibre rifles , firearms , are on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: to be very clear , mr. chair , the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles , including the ar-15 . the member may be referring to a weapon that the rcmp has identified as using an ar-15 frame , which of course mr. glen motz: again , that is a wrong answer , mr. chair . how many shotguns are now on that banned list ? hon. bill blair: that is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters . in fact , we did not prohibit any shotguns . mr. glen motz: again , that is another untruth , mr. chair . are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list ? hon. bill blair: that 's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby . in fact , there was a weapon called the blackwater ar-15 , which was a real gun that was prohibited , but the toy gun , the airsoft one , was not . mr. glen motz: that 's untrue . i know some of those exact firearms that are on that list . why is the rcmp continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , it is a very important that the rcmp , as the agency responsible for administering the canadian firearms program , continues to do its diligence to keep canadians safe . mr. glen motz: why has there been no notice given to firearms owners , retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list ? hon. bill blair: again , mr. chair , it is very important that the canadian firearms program and the rcmp continue to do the important work of ensuring that canadians are kept safe . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: again , i do not have that information and , as the member probably knows , records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted . mr. glen motz: how many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since may 1 ? of the firearms that have been transferred , how many now are retroactively prohibited since may 1 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , on may 1 , by order in council , we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms , all based upon a military design . those are the weapons that are prohibited . mr. glen motz: since that time you have added almost 700 more , and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish . if a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since may 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list , are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution ? hon. bill blair: again , the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction , and that is their decision , not ours . mr. glen motz: the minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure . we now know that to be completely false . there was no such failure , but an ordered shutdown . who ordered the rcmp to withhold these services from law-abiding canadians ? hon. bill blair: i have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made , mr. chair , and so i can not really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened . mr. glen motz: maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering . what does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , there was no firearms confiscation plan . we will , however , be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat canadians who purchased these firearms fairly . mr. glen motz: you ca n't buy back something that you never owned in the first place , mr. chair . these costs must include administration , price per firearm , as well as the industry costs . we know that industry costs are over $ 1 billion . if this minister does n't know the cost , maybe he 's as incompetent as our minister of finance . i am wondering , chair , through you , why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table ? the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the house . we should be careful what we say . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill blair: thank you very much , mr. chair . i 'd just like to advise you and this house that our purpose is to protect the lives of canadians , and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control . we are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers , only by our interest in keeping canadians safe . the chair: we will now continue to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week 's deadline . there are millions of relieved seniors with gis and parents with the child tax benefit and gst who now know they have a bit of time and protection and are n't to be cut off from their benefits . i 'm hoping to go two for two here today , so there 's no pressure to the minister of public safety . i want to build on the comments last week from ms. gladu , my colleague from sarnialambton , about family reunification between canadians and americans . many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation . i certainly support , and i think we support in this chamber , the idea of the extension for travel . however , it 's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other , and there are canadian and american children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other . after stating for months that reunifying families was n't considered essential travel , i am thankful that he and the prime minister have now said that it is . will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week , which would exempt spouses , children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation , so that we can get people and their families back together ? hon. bill blair: i 'd like to thank the member for what i think is a very important question and i want to assure him that i have had similar conversations with members of this house from all parties and representing all parts of the country . we recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families . it is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families . we are working very closely with the cbsa to ensure that individuals are treated fairly . i want to share this with the member and honourable members of this house . any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council . because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border , any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners . some of them , you may be aware , have expressed some concern , and we 're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns . at the same time we are working very hard , and i am very hopeful that we 'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many canadians you and everyone else represents . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question , they should speak through the chair and not directly to the other member . we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: we were looking at each other . it 's a bad habit . to the minister , i appreciate the comments . i will just note that the canadian and american governments have worked with provinces , as we have with the minister of foreign affairs , to repatriate canadians from around the world . there have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that . there are protocols and there is a precedence . i am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part . i believe there is a precedent and i believe there is a background there , and i think we can , through an order in council or whatever measure , get people back with their families . can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating canadians from other countries ? hon. bill blair: again i thank the member , because this is a very important issue and it 's important to us as well . we have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem , because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised . at the same time , i think it 's important to work very closely , as we have done , with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised . we are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families , and we the chair: we will go back to mr. duncan . mr. eric duncan: i appreciate that comment from the minister . i want to share the story of a constituent of mine , mr. david lee , from cornwall . he and his wife maria have been married for a couple of years now . she is an american citizen . they spend about five months of the year in texas and five months in cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year . however , she could n't come up to canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place , and it 's certainly putting a strain on them . can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible ? the three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited , that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents , and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments , they can do that and can stay with their spouse . can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed ? hon. bill blair: what i can confirm is that we 're working hard to make sure we keep families together . i want to reiterate , because you raise a very important point , that when people cross the border they 're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health . that 's for the protection of all canadians . you mentioned travelling back and forth across the border . if the travel is deemed essential , that is an exception , but if it is not deemed essential , then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days . that 's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought . we 're working to provide those assurances . the chair: before we go to the next line of questioning , i want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other . i therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters , who are doing a really good job . we 'll now go to mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i 've had the opportunity to talk with mr. james bogusz , ceo of the regina airport authority , and he paints a grim picture . he expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer . the loss of the regina international airport would be devastating , not only to the city of regina but also to southern saskatchewan . the liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $ 330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals , but here is what it 's not telling people : airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years , so when an airport 's revenue goes down to zero , its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero , pandemic or no pandemic . that means the government has done absolutely nothing to help canada 's airports . will the government commit today to providing real assistance to canada 's struggling airports ? hon. bill blair: the minister of transport has been working very closely with airports , large and small , right across the country . we have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation . we 've been in touch with each of the airports , and we 've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times . we know that in some circumstances , continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible , but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , canada 's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the liberal government 's response has been to defer their lease payments . these were already based on revenue , so these deferrals are effectively meaningless . in the meantime , the u.s. government 's cares program is providing $ 10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support american airports . will the government commit today to saving canada 's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , we have worked very hard , and continue to do so , to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country . we know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do . they support communities and the canadian economy . we 're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time , because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy . their continued existence and success are important to that restart , and we 'll work with them . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of regina . airports are vital to canada 's economy , providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $ 13 billion in wages and $ 7 billion in taxes . however , now canada 's airports are on the brink of collapse , and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90 % of their revenue . last month joyce carter , chair of the canadian airports council , called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery . it includes the permanent elimination of ground leases , substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities . could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the canadian airports council 's request ? hon. bill blair: i would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve . that 's why it 's important that we work with them all . the minister of transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities , large and small , right across this country on how we can continue to support them . there have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take . that 's all part of a very important ongoing discussion . i believe it is clear that canadians need our help , and we are there for canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic . the chair: mr. kram , we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer . mr. michael kram: mr. chair , the united states , australia , new zealand and japan have all started free trade negotiations with the united kingdom . why has n't canada ? hon. mary ng (markhamthornhill, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for the question . we , of course , are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of canadian businesses , and i want to assure canadians that ceta continues to apply to our trade with the united kingdom . we will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of canadian businesses . the chair: we now move to mr.therrien . mr. alain therrien (la prairie, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the liberal party of canada . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): on a point of order , mr.chair . i am not sure that the number of employees at the liberal party , the bloc qubcois , or the conservative party is relevant to government management . the chair: i am not sure whether that is a point of order , but i will let mr.therrien continue . mr. alain therrien: if he stays with me , he will understand . he can trust me . i would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the liberal party of canada . it is a simple question . hon. pablo rodriguez: a number of people do . some hon . members : oh , oh ! mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , i know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers . but that is not our style . the liberal party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program . i would just like to know how many people work for the liberal party of canada . hon. bill morneau: i do not know how many people work for the liberal party , but i can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy . that is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . mr. alain therrien: they have 157mps and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy . not one member wondered how many people work for them . they are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar . in an article in la presse on may25 , liberal party spokesman braeden caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program . is that correct ? hon. bill morneau: i am very focused on our concern , which is to protect canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30 % or more . it is very important for them and for our economy . mr. alain therrien: let 's use a round number . let 's say 100employees . how many employees in the liberal party of canada are threatened by the pandemic ? you should know ; it 's your party . the chair: i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr.chair . we stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country . we want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic . mr. alain therrien: i would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign . i would like to know how much taxpayers ' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the liberal party of canada . how much money have you taken from the program ? hon. bill morneau: the emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75 % of the income that employees were earning before the crisis , to a maximum of $ 847 . this is important for them and , of course , very important for our economy . mr. alain therrien: mr.chair , since i am not getting an answer , let me share with you the very simple calculation i cobbled together . one hundred employees at $ 847 a week is $ 340,000a month . that is the amount of taxpayers ' money that the liberal party is putting into its pockets . if we multiply that amount by threethat 's three months , since it started on march15we get over $ 1million . that is the amount they will have put in their pockets , to be used as election loot for the liberal party . given that the liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy , will their party continue to help itself to the money ? hon. bill morneau: the purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees . so every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees . that is very important . it is how employees and their incomes are protected . it will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation . the chair: mr.therrien , you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds . mr. alain therrien: they have already taken $ 1million out of the register , so that is settled . my question is twofold . first , are they going to pay back that $ 1million ? second , i hope they will not be taking another $ 1million by september . can i at least be reassured of that ? hon. bill morneau: we will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis . the chair: we will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places . we can now continue . we 'll go now to mr. van bynen . mr. tony van bynen (newmarketaurora, lib.): mr. chair , i will be splitting my time with the member for scarborough centre . mr. chair , as parliamentarians , our greatest responsibility is to keep canadians safe . during the previous parliament , our government made significant investments in the cbsa and the rcmp , and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities . on may 1 , our government banned assault-style weapons . this is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims ' groups , law enforcement and everyday canadians called on for decades , but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe . mr. chair , i 'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities . can the minister tell the house and the constituents of newmarketaurora what further steps our government will take to keep canadians safe ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i 'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for newmarketaurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community . mr. chair , building upon historic investments that we made in the last parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs , we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen canada 's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community , including the ontario association of chiefs of police , have said have no place in our communities . there is much more to do . we will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border , by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids , families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across canada . mr. chair , we have much work to do , and we are committed to keeping canadians safe . the chair: the next question goes to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , in cities and towns across canada , small businesses are the backbones of our local economies . they are also pillars of our communities . even during these challenging times , we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks . so many have supported scarborough health network 's meals on wheels program . their leadership has been inspiring . i have heard from many small business owners in scarborough , from dentists to small manufacturers , who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by covid-19 . they are interested in how programs like the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business , but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords do n't participate . these small businesses are crucial to our community . could the minister of small business , export promotion and international trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success , not just here in scarborough but across canada ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i want to thank the member of parliament for her advocacy for the people of scarborough centre on this really important question . while rent is an area of provincial responsibility , helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility . this is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while , at the same time , helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis . we are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times , and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75 % . this is a win-win situation . many landlords have already stepped up , and we salute their efforts . we will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across canada from coast to coast to coast . the chair: the next question goes to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan (vancouver east, ndp): the $ 4-billion canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. it 's supposed to provide up to $ 2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent . we know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black , indigenous and racialized people . can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , i want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit . we introduced the canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing , people who are in core housing need , are homeless or at risk of homelessness . we have signed agreements with provinces . we hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing the chair: we will go back to ms. kwan . ms. jenny kwan: it has been two and a half years , and families in need are still waiting . only one province has signed on , and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented . with so little federal leadership , the canadian alliance of non-profit housing associations has stepped up and done the work for the government . they have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the canada housing benefit . will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $ 55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership . it is quite the opposite . the canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy , which will ensure people have access to a safe , affordable place to call home . it is being signed by a number of provinces , not just one as the honourable member suggests . there are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the canada housing benefit . ms. jenny kwan: then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program . the fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30 % of their income on rent , and they have been hit hard by this pandemic . reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need . aside from going forward with a housing benefit program , will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-covid stimulus policy ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action . it 's real leadership by our government as part of the canada housing benefit . this is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need , people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home . the canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of canadian households . we will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories . ms. jenny kwan: well , minister , i would say that b.c . is still looking for the government to step up . we bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing , and the government has yet to provide any funding to them . the next question is for the minister of immigration . the first migrant worker died yesterday due to covid-19 . migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot . others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses . what action will the minister take to address this alarming situation ? hon. marco mendicino (minister of immigration, refugees and citizenship): i thank my colleague for the question , and i want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from covid-19 . of course , we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all canadians . we 're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made . we put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary , and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that canadians have access to safe and affordable food . ms. jenny kwan: no one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families . we rely on them to put food on the table for our families . they do n't have access to health care and they do n't have a pathway to permanent residence . will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you 're good enough to work , you 're good enough to stay ? hon. marco mendicino: in fact , mr. chair , i would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence . of course , that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that canadians have access to healthy , safe and affordable food . we will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the covid-19 crisis , and they deserve the support of all levels of government , including their own mps . yesterday the liberal and ndp mps banded together to restrict the standing committee on fisheries and oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months . conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support canadians , while the liberals and ndp refuse to do the work . when will the prime minister tell his mps to get back to work for the canadians who need their support ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr. chair , we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work , and that 's why committees are meeting regularly . i would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions , not the government . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , it took months for dfo to realize that fish passage on the fraser river was blocked at big bar . then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage . now that contract has tripled from $ 17.6 million to over $ 52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister 's office . the original contract amount was clearly inadequate , so who ordered it ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , since we found out about the landslide at big bar , our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through . we know how critically important the salmon are to the fraser river , as well as to the indigenous communities along the fraser . we 're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared . so far , we 've made significant progress , but we know there 's more work that needs to be done . that 's why we 'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the fisheries minister 's mandate letter from november of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species . half a year later , the minister has failed to deliver . canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister , and when they got a response five months later , it was devoid of any help . this government 's delays are hurting canada 's fight against invasive species . when will the minister follow her prime minister 's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my hon . colleague for the question . invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways . we know that a lot more has to be done . we 're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species . we are continuing to monitor situations in waterways . i am committed to making sure that i meet my commitments within my mandate letter , and i will have more to say on that soon . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by minister blair 's order in council continues to grow . what other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to be very clear , the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat . as law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times , they have no place in our community , and we agree . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , i continue to hear from constituents in the north okanaganshuswap who are unable to access supports under the canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program . business owners have also lost employees and ca n't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit . when the liberals shut down parliament , they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures . when will the government fix these problems and the programs ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we continue to look at the programs we 've put out to support canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact . as we 've moved along , we have said that we need to make amendments . we 've committed to extending the wage subsidy , and of course we 're looking at all the measures we 've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , an april 1 letter confirms that deloitte canada has been contracted to help supply ppe . was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in china in order to have an a-to-z procurement approach to delivering goods the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: can the minister confirm that this was , indeed , a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , there are a number of goods that need to be procured for canadian health care professionals to be safe , and that 's exactly the chair: we 'll go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: yes or no , was this a sole-source contract ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further , fuller response . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , is deloitte of canada able to speak on behalf of pspc ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , not at all . the contracts that we are entering into are made by us the chair: we will go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: what is the value of the contract with deloitte ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , again , that is information that we are not going to release at this time . when the time is right , we will do so . mr. arnold viersen: many of the suppliers that are in contact with deloitte of canada are indigenous contractors . has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers , as we are with many suppliers across canada and internationally . we are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board , and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix . mr. arnold viersen: many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors . is it appropriate for deloitte to be recertifying these vendors ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the honourable member appears to have information regarding deloitte 's certification processes , which would not be outside what the government itself is doing . i encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before the chair: go ahead , mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'll tell you what i think . i believe that canada is in a crisis , and i am making every effort to order ppe as canadian health care workers require . some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply ppe to canada . has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers , in terms of products and in terms of countries . that is our commitment to canadian health care workers the chair: now we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential , because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize the chair : we go back to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen: mr. chair , on friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted . have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between deloitte canada and ppe suppliers been filled ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , the member is mistaken . deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the government of canada . deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers , and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers . the chair: we will now proceed with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): mr.chair , we have difficulty understanding the government 's management of the border . the order between canada and the united states has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in canada if they have family here and we accept them . however , hundreds of canadian-american couples can not be reunited , which is a problem . i find it hard to believe that the minister can not quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i appreciate very much the member 's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me . i 'm also working with a number of different families . we remain committed to keeping families together . as i advised this house earlier , mr. chair , we 're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into canada , but to do so safely and not put other canadians at risk . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , letting a spouse come home will not put canadians at risk . a survey conducted in canada reveals that a large majority of canadians do not trust the chinese communist regime at all and do not want huawei in canada . the good news today is that bce and telus have decided not to do business with huawei . now that the government no longer has to worry about bce and telus , can they say today that no other company is going to use huawei and that huawei will be banned from canada for 5g ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for his question . our government will always protect our networks and ensure that canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications . a review of 5g technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way . we will ensure that canadians ' security and personal information will never be compromised . mr. pierre paul-hus: let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that csis has confirmed that huawei is unreliable as far as canada 's security is concerned . right now , two canadians are being unjustly detained by the chinese communist regime . the same regime continues to lie to the world about covid-19 , block our exports , and terrorize the citizens of hong kong . when will the prime minister confirm that he is going to ban huawei from developing 5g in canada ? it is a simple question . hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let 's be very clear . canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5g technology . at the same time , the safety and security of canada 's digital environment will be of paramount consideration . we 're doing the work required and we 're not basing that agenda on some media report , but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account . we are engaged in robust discussions with our five eyes partners , including the united states , and all our security agencies . mr. chair , we 'll do the work necessary to the chair: mr.paul-hus has the floor . mr. pierre paul-hus: the minister does not need a sheet of paper , this matter has been clear for a long time . everyone is saying that we need to ban huawei from canada . i have a quick question for the minister of finance . bell and telus had each estimated that removing huawei from their development would cost $ 1billion . today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use huawei . did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it ? having said that , my next question is more about the theft on may27 . about 90,000surgical masks bound for the quebec city uhc were stolen from the toronto airport . as we all know , these masks are critical in the fight against covid-19 . has the minister called for an investigation ? when are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague . our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time , and they 're being distributed to provinces , including quebec . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have time to ask a 15-second question . mr. pierre paul-hus: it is a little strange . the masks were stolen in toronto on may27 . so they have been gone a long time . i just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found . i want to address another complex and important issue . a police officer from the montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud . some social assistance recipients learned about the cerb and applied for it . building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients . they know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud . the police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent . should he give them to the fraudsters ? how does that work ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address cerb fraud . we understand that in delivering this benefit to a million canadians to date , we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back , but make no mistake : canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account , and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. moore . hon. rob moore (fundy royal, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . mr. chair , there remains a concern across canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free . the chief justice of the supreme court recently said in an interview that amendments to the criminal code could allow this backlog to be addressed . can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog , and when we can expect to see it addressed ? hon. david lametti (minister of justice and attorney general of canada): mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for his question . i can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts , who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law . i can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the chief justice of canada , again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee , to look at the restart of the justice system the chair: we 'll go back to mr. moore . hon. rob moore: mr. chair , weeks ago i raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system . the provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed , and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs . can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue ? hon. david lametti: we are working with the provinces . there are different practices in each province . we 're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces . we 're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law . hon. rob moore: many owners of small businesses in my riding , and indeed in all of our ridings , are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities . two weeks ago , the prime minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account . this is something that we 've been calling for over the past several weeks , and businesses can not wait any longer . can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure ? hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for that really important question . i want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them . we absolutely understand . we are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support . i would like to highlight , though , that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support . of course , there is more to do , and we will keep working hard for those business owners . hon. rob moore: the lack of access to high-speed internet remains a major issue across my home province of new brunswick . this is a significant barrier to rural economic development . it impacts the quality of life of rural constituents . the lack of progress and transparency on rural internet is frustrating for residents , for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to covid . when will a new plan for rural internet be introduced , and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , our government has a plan to connect canadians to high-speed internet . to date , we 've set aside investments to connect a million households , and there 's more work to be done . we will be announcing our next steps to connect more canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come . i look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring . hon. rob moore: on the issue of commercial rent , how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government 's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , as the member knows and would understand , rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction . that said , we 've moved forward to try to ensure that there 's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both . we 're seeing landlords the chair: we 'll now go to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin (fredericton, gp): thank you , mr. chair . george floyd , ahmaud arbery , nicholas gibbs , colten boushie , tina fontaine , alain magloire and breonna taylor were not all born on the same side of the border , but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy : racism . we can not , here in canada , think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour . we can not ignore our history , past or present . the final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a canadian genocide . in 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the toronto police , and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the montreal police force against black and indigenous people . black lives matter . indigenous lives matter . i am asking the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth , as per her mandate , what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions . if the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established , what priorities have been actioned ? hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): i would like to thank the member for that very important question . i will state that it is essential that we all work together , not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it . on the comments that were shared earlier , this is another life lost that should not have been lost . yes , the anti-racism secretariat has been established . this is a resource not only for canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well , including advancement opportunities . we know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country . that 's exactly why we came out with an open , transparent , merit-based appointment process : so that we can see the country 's diversity reflected at the decision-making table . there is a lot more work to do . i can assure the member and all canadians that my eyes are open , my ears are open and i am an ally . i will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table . i can not experience what it is to be a black canadian , but i can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard . i see you . mrs. jenica atwin: mr. chair , it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved . that resolution has n't taken place . the pain continues . why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still have n't received the payments they are owed ? these people deserve justice without any delay , especially in light of covid-19 and the added pressures facing communities . can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment ? hon. carolyn bennett: thank you very much . thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things . as you know , because of the exceptional circumstance of covid-19 , the class counsel , with the support of canada , was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim . on june 1 the federal court granted that order . a similar motion is before the ontario superior court . once granted , eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $ 21,000 over the coming weeks . canada welcomes the federal court 's the chair: we 'll now go back to ms. atwin . mrs. jenica atwin: thank you , mr. chair . eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis , or als , will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis . the pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment . they do not have the luxury of time . they want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones . the lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with als . can the minister of health commit to taking leadership on this file , removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies , and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered ? hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much for the very important question . we know that people living with als and their families struggle immensely every single day . of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for als to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all canadians . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. green . mr. matthew green (hamilton centre, ndp): mr. chair , i ca n't breathe and i 'm tired , and today we 've heard a lot of progressive words from the prime minister , but he has n't really said anything . if the prime minister will not provide leadership in this house , will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , yes , we do commit . that 's exactly why we will listen more . we will acknowledge that racism is alive in canada . we know we must do better . however , i also need the member to recognize that this work has started . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international the chair: we will go back to mr. green . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries ? hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers , because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . yes , i will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected . mr. matthew green: mr. chair , that 's not a legal requirement . it is also not lost on the black community that the former toronto chief of police , the architect of this country 's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding , was made this country 's minister of public safety by this prime minister . as the tragic consequence of the unlawful , unconstitutional and racist practices in toronto , black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police . does the minister of public safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in canada 's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism , and will he act to immediately end it today ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , let me be very clear . first of all , every canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing . i know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions . mr. chair , racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable , it 's in fact unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms and it 's contrary to the canadian human rights act . we are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service . we remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country . mr. matthew green: nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than i do . will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police ? hon. bill blair: just to be very clear , mr. chair , i actually worked with the diverse communities of toronto for nearly four decades . i worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and i learned extensively from their lived experience . we worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities . mr. matthew green: bill c-51 was introduced by the conservatives and supported by the liberals , including this prime minister . it declared indigenous , racial , economic justice , and environmental activists as domestic terrorists . each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols , which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling . given what he has said today in the house , will this minister of public safety work to repeal the changes made under bill c-51 ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful . it 's contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms ; it is contrary to the canadian human rights act . it can not ever be tolerated in policing in any place in canada , but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities , who tell us that this is still their lived experience , so there is a great deal of work left to do . the chair: it is now mr.champoux 's turn . mr.champoux , you have the floor . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i will be sharing my time with the honourable member for joliette . supplementary unemployment benefits , or subs , give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees ' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off . a number of companies , including soprema in drummond , have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the sub terms when employment insurance is converted to the cerb . however , surprise , surprise , when the employees applied for the cerb in may , they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of subs they have received exceeded $ 1,000 , the cerb income limit . in addition , they must reimburse the cerb because they found that they were not eligible for it . so , what does the minister of finance intend to do to correct his error ? the chair: we will pause for a second . we have a point of order on the floor . go ahead , mr. green . mr. matthew green: i posed the most important question . i had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before i was cut off , and i would appreciate , given the seriousness of the conversation here today , if the honourable minister of public safety will please answer the question : will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding ? the chair: the way i work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less , we go on to the next one , because it 's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer . i will move on to mr. champoux . he did ask a question , and we 'll let ms. qualtrough , the honourable minister , answer . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are very much alive and in place for companies , employers and their employees . the cerb allows employers to top up an employee 's wages to the maximum of a $ 1,000 . as was said , mr. chair , in order to deliver this important critical benefit to canadians , we had to go outside of the ei system . that decision was made , and as a result , eight million canadians are being helped . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , subs do not have an employment insurance cap . employers can contribute as much as they want , and they were assured that this would be the case with the cerb . otherwise , they would have opted for another program . let me put my question to the minister of finance again , in the hope that he will be the one to answer it . when does he intend to fix this error ? hon. carla qualtrough: i thank the member for his question , mr. chair . as we can all appreciate , delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many canadians as possible , both those who were ei eligible and those who were outside of ei , resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system . sub plans are available for employers the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have the floor . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): mr.chair , i will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits . let me remind everyone that service canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them . the victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the canada emergency response benefit , as my colleague just explained . i also have the question my colleague from drummond asked : why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income ? it is simple . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , as legislated , we needed to set up a straightforward , simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible . the nuance and sophistication of the ei system was not available to us . as a result , as i said , eight million canadians are getting the cerb . service canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation . we do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement . we are talking about mothers and fathers . when the government rolled out its canada emergency response benefit , it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them . the government can fix it right here , right now . does it want to do that ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , let me clarify that employees who were covered by a sub plan prior to march 15 are indeed covered by that plan . we 're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit , regardless of whether or not the cerb is in place . those who accessed ei after march 15 have been streamlined into the cerb process , and their employers can help them with up to $ 1,000 a month . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we really do not have the same information . agreements were signed before march15 for subsequent periods , but there was an agreement with service canada . companies have tried to contact service canada by telephone , but no one is answering . they have tried by email , but no one is replying either . the companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the sub . however , the government says that , after the fact , it changed the rules that had previously applied , and it is no longer honouring its agreement . as i understand it , the government does not want to straighten out the situation , and that is unacceptable . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at service canada . we have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the cerb , as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the ei process . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question , which is from mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp (saskatoon west, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . as of december 31 , 2019 , the total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. these are the most recent public figures . what is the current total number of pending veterans ' disability benefits applications before veterans affairs ? hon. lawrence macaulay (minister of veterans affairs): i am sorry , mr. chair . mr. chair , i thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the parliament of canada from my home in midgell . as i indicated earlier in the house of commons , i can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need . mr. brad redekopp: those 46,000 applications from december of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans . these are men and women who are suffering . how many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: i again thank my colleague . the fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities . as you understand , with this pandemic there are some difficulties , but we are processing the same number of decisions daily . our the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: on march 10 , we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks . what is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , as i indicated , what we 're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process , make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically . some can not , because we have to make sure that what 's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they the chair: we will go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: it seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government . on march 10 , the deputy minister of veterans affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated , written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog . this plan was to include timelines . when will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work . i know how important this piece of information is for them . my department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country . i can assure my honourable colleague the chair: we 'll go to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: mr. chair , i 'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to covid-19 , so i wonder if mr. macaulay can provide the committee with that plan right now , rather than wait . hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , i can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared , and prepared properly , for the committee . as i said before , i fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it 's difficult to give a timeline . i want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: the minister 's mandate letter instructed mr. macaulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications . when will this system be implemented ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we 're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper the chair: we 'll go back to mr. redekopp . mr. brad redekopp: if automatic approval is implemented , does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog ? hon. lawrence macaulay: mr. chair , it will remove a number from the backlog , because quite simply , if you 're skydiving out of a plane , you 're going to have knee problems , and if you 're a gunner , you 're going to have ear problems . these things should be done automatically , and that 's exactly what we 're working on . as i said before , other things are complicated . to make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration the chair: unfortunately , that 's all the time we have for today . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . </s> [SEP]what did the committee say on housing ?

ms. leah gazan asked for help to tackle homelessness and provide rental assistance . the minister of families , children and social development pointed to the ministries efforts to help with essential supplies and expenses .