Datasets:

mlgawd

/

ukumi

like 0

{ "chapters": [ { "start_time": "0:00", "title": "Dr. Raghuram Rajan x Ranveer Allahbadia begins" }, { "start_time": "3:20", "title": "The art of teaching" }, { "start_time": "6:10", "title": "Demand and supply concept" }, { "start_time": "8:50", "title": "His profession & art of economics" }, { "start_time": "12:51", "title": "How is a policy formed" }, { "start_time": "16:55", "title": "Work of RBI governor" }, { "start_time": "18:14", "title": "Role of Finance Ministery" }, { "start_time": "21:18", "title": "Chief Economic Advisor" }, { "start_time": "24:38", "title": "How does elected government affect RBI working" }, { "start_time": "30:04", "title": "His biggest achievement" }, { "start_time": "32:55", "title": "Can the government afford giving freebies?" }, { "start_time": "40:49", "title": "Truth about corruption" }, { "start_time": "44:11", "title": "Modi government criticism" }, { "start_time": "52:58", "title": "Economic policies" }, { "start_time": "56:20", "title": "Why he left the Modi government?" }, { "start_time": "1:01:32", "title": "Conspiracy theory against him" }, { "start_time": "1:11:21", "title": "His opinion on demonetization" }, { "start_time": "1:14:28", "title": "Creating better education institutions" }, { "start_time": "1:16:42", "title": "Employment problem" }, { "start_time": "1:21:30", "title": "Education problems" }, { "start_time": "1:26:20", "title": "Role of entrepreneurs in economic growth" }, { "start_time": "1:31:32", "title": "Thank you for watching" }, { "start_time": "1:32:04", "title": "End of the podcast" } ] }

[ { "end_time": "0:07", "start_time": "0:00", "text": "The narrative in the public eye is that you left working with the Modi government because your opinions weren't heard." }, { "end_time": "0:10", "start_time": "0:07", "text": "Point is not that this is silly government." }, { "end_time": "0:13", "start_time": "0:10", "text": "The point is that within the government, you have checks and balances." }, { "end_time": "0:17", "start_time": "0:14", "text": "In the congress government, what was your biggest achievement?" }, { "end_time": "0:18", "start_time": "0:17", "text": "We brought down inflation." }, { "end_time": "0:20", "start_time": "0:18", "text": "Inflation was at near double digits." }, { "end_time": "0:25", "start_time": "0:20", "text": "We started UPI, money transfers that you make all the time through Paytm, HomePay." }, { "end_time": "0:26", "start_time": "0:25", "text": "That was started in my time." }, { "end_time": "0:29", "start_time": "0:26", "text": "Every government carries on the work of previous governments." }, { "end_time": "0:34", "start_time": "0:29", "text": "All the credit belongs to the government past 2014, and none belongs before, I think, is not right." }, { "end_time": "0:39", "start_time": "0:34", "text": "Having an overly powerful premise, India cannot be governed from a very, very narrow center." }, { "end_time": "0:41", "start_time": "0:40", "text": "Do you think you were a disliked guy?" }, { "end_time": "0:49", "start_time": "0:41", "text": "In every profession, you have to know when people are pulling wool over your eyes, when they're trying to, convince you of something and you know it's not true." }, { "end_time": "0:57", "start_time": "0:51", "text": "This is an epic two part conversation with the former RBI governor, doctor Raghuram Rajan." }, { "end_time": "1:00", "start_time": "0:57", "text": "It's an explosive yet educative conversation." }, { "end_time": "1:03", "start_time": "1:01", "text": "We had to split it up into 2 parts." }, { "end_time": "1:18", "start_time": "1:03", "text": "Part 1 is primarily about the basics of economics, how he looks at the subject and what he learned from his stint as the RBI Governor working with both the Manmohan Singh Government as well as the Narendra Modi Government." }, { "end_time": "1:21", "start_time": "1:18", "text": "There's a lot of insight in part 1." }, { "end_time": "1:23", "start_time": "1:21", "text": "Part 2 gets a little more political." }, { "end_time": "1:26", "start_time": "1:24", "text": "Part 1 is more on the educative side." }, { "end_time": "1:34", "start_time": "1:26", "text": "But all in all, I feel both these parts encapsulated the ideas present inside this book that Doctor." }, { "end_time": "1:35", "start_time": "1:34", "text": "Raghu written." }, { "end_time": "1:37", "start_time": "1:35", "text": "It's called breaking the mould." }, { "end_time": "1:43", "start_time": "1:39", "text": "You'll understand what the statement means by the end of the two parts." }, { "end_time": "1:51", "start_time": "1:43", "text": "I sincerely hope you gain value from this conversation because for me, it was an honor speaking to this man." }, { "end_time": "1:54", "start_time": "1:51", "text": "You'll know why when you slip straight into it." }, { "end_time": "1:56", "start_time": "1:54", "text": "Enjoy today's TRS conversation." }, { "end_time": "2:17", "start_time": "2:16", "text": "Doctor." }, { "end_time": "2:21", "start_time": "2:17", "text": "Raghuram Rajan, thank you for being in our house, being in our studio." }, { "end_time": "2:22", "start_time": "2:21", "text": "Thank you for being on the show." }, { "end_time": "2:24", "start_time": "2:22", "text": "Thanks for having me here." }, { "end_time": "2:28", "start_time": "2:24", "text": "This is a huge honor because ever since I was in college, I've been hearing your name." }, { "end_time": "2:31", "start_time": "2:30", "text": "In the best possible conversations." }, { "end_time": "2:37", "start_time": "2:32", "text": "Whenever the conversation gets super intellectual and if it's about economic policy your name starts up." }, { "end_time": "2:39", "start_time": "2:37", "text": "So it says a lot about your body of work." }, { "end_time": "2:39", "start_time": "2:39", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "2:43", "start_time": "2:39", "text": "Well at least at this point I'm trying to talk to a broader public." }, { "end_time": "2:47", "start_time": "2:43", "text": "So reduce the intellectual, broaden the reach." }, { "end_time": "2:58", "start_time": "2:47", "text": "I was about to say that with conversations like this, I'm always a little confused whether I should make it intellectual and deep or kind of make it massy and, you know, for the public, for kids as well." }, { "end_time": "3:00", "start_time": "2:59", "text": "It can be for both." }, { "end_time": "3:00", "start_time": "3:00", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "3:12", "start_time": "3:00", "text": "I mean, sometimes the most complex, arguments can be simplified because, you know, ultimately, many, sort of deep arguments have a very simple message." }, { "end_time": "3:16", "start_time": "3:12", "text": "And if you can distill that, I mean, I've seen some great teachers." }, { "end_time": "3:18", "start_time": "3:16", "text": "They can do it fantastically well." }, { "end_time": "3:20", "start_time": "3:18", "text": "And that that's that's not." }, { "end_time": "3:21", "start_time": "3:20", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "3:29", "start_time": "3:21", "text": "The one thing I figured is that if one truly understands the subject matter, then they're able to explain it to 4 year olds really well using metaphors." }, { "end_time": "3:30", "start_time": "3:29", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "3:34", "start_time": "3:31", "text": "The metaphors require some thinking but, but yeah." }, { "end_time": "3:38", "start_time": "3:34", "text": "I mean that's really the art because you have to understand it." }, { "end_time": "3:50", "start_time": "3:38", "text": "You know, as a colleague of mine who's a very famous academic says, look, I I I teach because to teach, I have to understand it thoroughly." }, { "end_time": "3:52", "start_time": "3:50", "text": "And then I have to explain." }, { "end_time": "3:57", "start_time": "3:53", "text": "There there are lots of bad teachers who just read off from their notes." }, { "end_time": "4:07", "start_time": "3:57", "text": "But to really understand it and to teach people, I think that's that's really, you know, deep, deep, deep exercise." }, { "end_time": "4:09", "start_time": "4:07", "text": "And it requires a lot of intellectual thinking." }, { "end_time": "4:16", "start_time": "4:10", "text": "It requires a lot of time alone going over the concepts you've learned, trying to figure out how you'll relay it to your students or the audiences." }, { "end_time": "4:17", "start_time": "4:16", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "4:18", "start_time": "4:17", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "4:21", "start_time": "4:18", "text": "And and the best teachers spend a lot of time doing that." }, { "end_time": "4:27", "start_time": "4:21", "text": "You know, how does it I mean, I you know, we talked a little bit about how your show works, but the best teachers do that." }, { "end_time": "4:29", "start_time": "4:27", "text": "Go over how they taught the lecture." }, { "end_time": "4:30", "start_time": "4:29", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "4:31", "start_time": "4:30", "text": "What worked?" }, { "end_time": "4:32", "start_time": "4:31", "text": "What didn't work?" }, { "end_time": "4:36", "start_time": "4:32", "text": "And that's why when I teach cases, it's not the first time I teach it that works best." }, { "end_time": "4:37", "start_time": "4:36", "text": "It's the 7th time." }, { "end_time": "4:43", "start_time": "4:38", "text": "Because then I understand aspects of the case that, you know, come from my audience, that is my my students." }, { "end_time": "4:49", "start_time": "4:44", "text": "But also I understand that, okay, this didn't fly so well because I didn't explain it." }, { "end_time": "4:50", "start_time": "4:49", "text": "I have to do it better." }, { "end_time": "4:51", "start_time": "4:50", "text": "Mhmm." }, { "end_time": "4:54", "start_time": "4:52", "text": "I need you to explain some things to us today." }, { "end_time": "4:54", "start_time": "4:54", "text": "Okay?" }, { "end_time": "4:55", "start_time": "4:54", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "5:02", "start_time": "4:57", "text": "I want to be fully straight forward with you and just tell you how I am approaching this conversation." }, { "end_time": "5:10", "start_time": "5:03", "text": "We've had 2 people speak about economic policy on the show KV Subramanian sir and Sanjeev Sanyal sir." }, { "end_time": "5:14", "start_time": "5:10", "text": "I've learned everything about economics through those conversations I have had with them." }, { "end_time": "5:15", "start_time": "5:14", "text": "So I have certain notions." }, { "end_time": "5:20", "start_time": "5:16", "text": "I encourage you to destroy those notions if you feel I am thinking in a wrong way." }, { "end_time": "5:23", "start_time": "5:20", "text": "And kind of help me further the understanding." }, { "end_time": "5:28", "start_time": "5:23", "text": "The one thing that's encouraged in this show is, disagreements." }, { "end_time": "5:28", "start_time": "5:28", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "5:28", "start_time": "5:28", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "5:30", "start_time": "5:28", "text": "I feel it leads to like much better conversation." }, { "end_time": "5:31", "start_time": "5:30", "text": "Good." }, { "end_time": "5:35", "start_time": "5:31", "text": "So pardon me if I disagree with you, and I want you to disagree with me." }, { "end_time": "5:35", "start_time": "5:35", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "5:36", "start_time": "5:35", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "5:39", "start_time": "5:36", "text": "So let's start with a statement I heard." }, { "end_time": "5:44", "start_time": "5:39", "text": "Economy and economic growth can be boiled down to you producing more things." }, { "end_time": "5:44", "start_time": "5:44", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "5:45", "start_time": "5:44", "text": "That's it." }, { "end_time": "5:47", "start_time": "5:46", "text": "Well, it's 2 parts." }, { "end_time": "5:48", "start_time": "5:48", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "5:54", "start_time": "5:49", "text": "Producing more things is one half of it, which is what we call supply." }, { "end_time": "5:58", "start_time": "5:55", "text": "The other half of it is somebody has to want those things." }, { "end_time": "6:00", "start_time": "5:58", "text": "There has to be demand for it." }, { "end_time": "6:03", "start_time": "6:00", "text": "When both come together, you get growth." }, { "end_time": "6:13", "start_time": "6:03", "text": "So sometimes when there's overproduction but nobody wants it, then, what happens is you have industries producing too much, they cut back." }, { "end_time": "6:18", "start_time": "6:13", "text": "That's what is called a recession because they stop producing because nobody's buying this stuff." }, { "end_time": "6:19", "start_time": "6:18", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "6:23", "start_time": "6:19", "text": "And sometimes you have a lot of demand and not enough production." }, { "end_time": "6:27", "start_time": "6:24", "text": "That's when you get inflation because prices are rising." }, { "end_time": "6:28", "start_time": "6:27", "text": "There's a lot of demand." }, { "end_time": "6:31", "start_time": "6:28", "text": "People want more of of it, but not enough is being supplied." }, { "end_time": "6:33", "start_time": "6:31", "text": "I mean, take for example airlines." }, { "end_time": "6:38", "start_time": "6:34", "text": "If it's a hot tourist season, everybody wants a ticket." }, { "end_time": "6:42", "start_time": "6:38", "text": "So the airlines are all flying full and they know they can raise their prices." }, { "end_time": "6:45", "start_time": "6:42", "text": "That's a situation where demand is exceeding supply." }, { "end_time": "6:48", "start_time": "6:45", "text": "You can't build new planes in a hurry." }, { "end_time": "6:49", "start_time": "6:48", "text": "You can't bring them on board." }, { "end_time": "6:50", "start_time": "6:49", "text": "You have only so many flights." }, { "end_time": "6:53", "start_time": "6:50", "text": "And therefore that's that's inflation." }, { "end_time": "6:54", "start_time": "6:53", "text": "Gotcha." }, { "end_time": "6:55", "start_time": "6:54", "text": "Do you mind if I have this coffee?" }, { "end_time": "6:56", "start_time": "6:55", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "6:56", "start_time": "6:56", "text": "I'll join you." }, { "end_time": "6:57", "start_time": "6:56", "text": "Encourage you." }, { "end_time": "6:58", "start_time": "6:57", "text": "Cheers, sir." }, { "end_time": "6:59", "start_time": "6:58", "text": "Cheers to meeting you." }, { "end_time": "7:02", "start_time": "6:59", "text": "This is such a big life achievement for me, honestly." }, { "end_time": "7:04", "start_time": "7:02", "text": "You know, this is very interesting." }, { "end_time": "7:05", "start_time": "7:04", "text": "Orange juice and coffee." }, { "end_time": "7:09", "start_time": "7:06", "text": "It's my friend Riaz Amlani's, brainchild." }, { "end_time": "7:10", "start_time": "7:09", "text": "It's called Dope Coffee." }, { "end_time": "7:11", "start_time": "7:10", "text": "I'm just not branded at all." }, { "end_time": "7:12", "start_time": "7:11", "text": "He's just a friend." }, { "end_time": "7:16", "start_time": "7:13", "text": "But coffee culture in Mumbai is growing a lot." }, { "end_time": "7:22", "start_time": "7:16", "text": "This is a lot better though than some of those energy drinks which have 5 or 10 times the caffeine in them." }, { "end_time": "7:22", "start_time": "7:22", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "7:29", "start_time": "7:22", "text": "Those I think are positively dangerous because you may stay alive, awake for a really long time doing damage to your health." }, { "end_time": "7:31", "start_time": "7:29", "text": "May I ask you what's up in life right now?" }, { "end_time": "7:32", "start_time": "7:31", "text": "What's up in life?" }, { "end_time": "7:39", "start_time": "7:32", "text": "Well, on the one hand, I have a new book which, I'm trying to promote the message." }, { "end_time": "7:44", "start_time": "7:39", "text": "It's, sort of trying to say there's a different path for India in terms of growth." }, { "end_time": "7:47", "start_time": "7:45", "text": "Other than that, it's, you know, teaching." }, { "end_time": "8:00", "start_time": "7:47", "text": "I have to teach a PhD course, in the next, next quarter, which I have to, you know, along what we said, I have to first decide what I want to teach and then do the reading, learn it myself." }, { "end_time": "8:02", "start_time": "8:00", "text": "So there's a lot of work to be done." }, { "end_time": "8:06", "start_time": "8:02", "text": "And then, of course, we have an election coming up in this country." }, { "end_time": "8:14", "start_time": "8:06", "text": "And, you know, I'm gonna try and speak so that people sort of get a sense of what the big issues might be as we go into the election." }, { "end_time": "8:16", "start_time": "8:14", "text": "You'd be comfortable speaking about it today?" }, { "end_time": "8:19", "start_time": "8:16", "text": "I'd be happy to speak about it here." }, { "end_time": "8:19", "start_time": "8:19", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "8:22", "start_time": "8:20", "text": "Do you wanna speak about it right now, sir?" }, { "end_time": "8:23", "start_time": "8:22", "text": "We didn't talk anytime." }, { "end_time": "8:24", "start_time": "8:23", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "8:24", "start_time": "8:24", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "8:28", "start_time": "8:24", "text": "Why don't we actually get to it a little bit later because I'm sure it'll enter certain political domains?" }, { "end_time": "8:30", "start_time": "8:28", "text": "And first, let's address economics." }, { "end_time": "8:31", "start_time": "8:30", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "8:33", "start_time": "8:31", "text": "So people understand who they're listening to." }, { "end_time": "8:34", "start_time": "8:33", "text": "You spoke about the basics." }, { "end_time": "8:35", "start_time": "8:34", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "8:37", "start_time": "8:35", "text": "What I also wish to know about is the art of economics." }, { "end_time": "8:41", "start_time": "8:37", "text": "Which I know is a thing now because of the conversations I've had with us." }, { "end_time": "8:42", "start_time": "8:41", "text": "So there are basics you learn." }, { "end_time": "8:43", "start_time": "8:42", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "8:45", "start_time": "8:43", "text": "And then eventually, and I believe this is the case with any profession." }, { "end_time": "8:46", "start_time": "8:45", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "8:48", "start_time": "8:46", "text": "If you do it long enough, it does become a bit of an art form." }, { "end_time": "8:48", "start_time": "8:48", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "8:54", "start_time": "8:48", "text": "And then your personality and your own, for lack of a better word, biases come into play." }, { "end_time": "8:55", "start_time": "8:54", "text": "Human biases come into play." }, { "end_time": "9:00", "start_time": "8:55", "text": "Your own thought processes make their way to your work." }, { "end_time": "9:07", "start_time": "9:00", "text": "Now in your world as the RBI governor, so I first want you to break down this art form theory that I have." }, { "end_time": "9:15", "start_time": "9:07", "text": "The second sub question is as the RBI governor, how different was your work from the chief economic advisor?" }, { "end_time": "9:15", "start_time": "9:15", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "9:17", "start_time": "9:15", "text": "And or the finance ministry?" }, { "end_time": "9:17", "start_time": "9:17", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "9:22", "start_time": "9:18", "text": "And how do now like this is basically 3, 4 different profiles." }, { "end_time": "9:22", "start_time": "9:22", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "9:26", "start_time": "9:22", "text": "Everyone brings the art of economics into play, and then you'll come up with economic policy." }, { "end_time": "9:26", "start_time": "9:26", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "9:28", "start_time": "9:26", "text": "So how does this whole thing work?" }, { "end_time": "9:29", "start_time": "9:28", "text": "Right." }, { "end_time": "9:36", "start_time": "9:29", "text": "So I mean, when you say art, implied in that is also there might be a science of economics." }, { "end_time": "9:43", "start_time": "9:37", "text": "And and there is a a science which is the theory, the evidence that is built up." }, { "end_time": "9:47", "start_time": "9:44", "text": "Sometimes, administrators don't know that science." }, { "end_time": "9:49", "start_time": "9:47", "text": "They haven't been studying economics, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "9:56", "start_time": "9:49", "text": "They basically come with an administrative skill set, And then they learn on the job, you know, what what has to be done." }, { "end_time": "10:02", "start_time": "9:56", "text": "Now fortunately, I had a long, sort of tenure in economics as a professor." }, { "end_time": "10:05", "start_time": "10:02", "text": "I was chief economist of the International Monetary Fund." }, { "end_time": "10:12", "start_time": "10:06", "text": "And then, I eventually came to India, was chief economic advisor in the finance ministry and then RBI governor." }, { "end_time": "10:28", "start_time": "10:13", "text": "Now, so I had a body of knowledge, which is useful because you know, in every profession, you have to know when people are pulling wool over your eyes, when they're trying to, convince you of something and you know it's not true." }, { "end_time": "10:36", "start_time": "10:28", "text": "And for me, it was always sort of debating with the bankers who'd come with some new proposal or or the other to help them." }, { "end_time": "10:40", "start_time": "10:37", "text": "And you have to know when it makes sense and when it doesn't make sense." }, { "end_time": "10:44", "start_time": "10:40", "text": "So it's more like it teaches you the defense rather than the offense." }, { "end_time": "10:47", "start_time": "10:44", "text": "It teaches you the offense also in the following sense." }, { "end_time": "11:00", "start_time": "10:47", "text": "When you say offense, I mean, one of the things I did before I became, anything connected to the government was I was asked by doctor Manmohan Singh to write a report on the state of the financial system in India." }, { "end_time": "11:03", "start_time": "11:01", "text": "And we wrote the report called 100 Small Steps." }, { "end_time": "11:06", "start_time": "11:03", "text": "A lot of prominent bankers participated, Mr." }, { "end_time": "11:08", "start_time": "11:06", "text": "Rudet Kotak, for example." }, { "end_time": "11:14", "start_time": "11:08", "text": "And and that, report was a blueprint of how we reform, the system." }, { "end_time": "11:18", "start_time": "11:15", "text": "And, of course, what happens with many reports is it sits on a shelf." }, { "end_time": "11:19", "start_time": "11:18", "text": "Nobody acts on it." }, { "end_time": "11:25", "start_time": "11:20", "text": "Fortunately, when I came in as governor, the report was ready for for me to start acting in." }, { "end_time": "11:34", "start_time": "11:25", "text": "So we pulled it out and said We we went through the whole list of what we could do, and we did a fair amount in that period." }, { "end_time": "11:40", "start_time": "11:34", "text": "So that was the the sort of under core signs, playing offense." }, { "end_time": "11:48", "start_time": "11:41", "text": "Defense is, you know, when somebody comes to you and says, this can't be done, that can't be done." }, { "end_time": "11:50", "start_time": "11:48", "text": "And then you ask why, and then they explain." }, { "end_time": "11:56", "start_time": "11:50", "text": "And now you because you have a background, you start seeing what makes sense, what doesn't." }, { "end_time": "11:57", "start_time": "11:56", "text": "There's a lot of practicality." }, { "end_time": "11:59", "start_time": "11:57", "text": "That's the art that you're talking about." }, { "end_time": "12:04", "start_time": "12:00", "text": "That is there which people who have 20, 30 years experience in the area know." }, { "end_time": "12:08", "start_time": "12:05", "text": "And if you ignore that, that also is problematic." }, { "end_time": "12:09", "start_time": "12:08", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "12:11", "start_time": "12:09", "text": "Just just to be clear for better understanding." }, { "end_time": "12:12", "start_time": "12:11", "text": "I'm sorry I'm interrupting you." }, { "end_time": "12:16", "start_time": "12:12", "text": "But when you say that you see a report and then things are actually done." }, { "end_time": "12:20", "start_time": "12:16", "text": "This means they make their way to economic policies like whatever you thought about in the report." }, { "end_time": "12:20", "start_time": "12:20", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "12:30", "start_time": "12:20", "text": "And when you're talking about practicality, I think what you're trying to say is when the economic policies actually become a law, it affects the nation in a certain way." }, { "end_time": "12:38", "start_time": "12:30", "text": "So let me give you an example of of a thought which becomes a policy which then needs to be developed." }, { "end_time": "12:46", "start_time": "12:38", "text": "So, for example, one of the earlier sort of constraints was we didn't license banks." }, { "end_time": "12:50", "start_time": "12:48", "text": "It was done rarely." }, { "end_time": "12:58", "start_time": "12:52", "text": "So one of the big issues is, you know, if you do license more banks, you get more bank competition." }, { "end_time": "13:04", "start_time": "12:59", "text": "Of course, you have to supervise them carefully to make sure they don't make mistakes, But you get more competition." }, { "end_time": "13:08", "start_time": "13:04", "text": "There's more, banks opening up, you know, branches." }, { "end_time": "13:10", "start_time": "13:08", "text": "There's more employment and so on." }, { "end_time": "13:15", "start_time": "13:10", "text": "So one of the things we did was we essentially put the banks on open license." }, { "end_time": "13:19", "start_time": "13:16", "text": "Now once you do that, you also have to license them." }, { "end_time": "13:20", "start_time": "13:19", "text": "So that's the concept." }, { "end_time": "13:21", "start_time": "13:20", "text": "That's the concept." }, { "end_time": "13:24", "start_time": "13:21", "text": "But then the practicality is how do you actually license them?" }, { "end_time": "13:29", "start_time": "13:25", "text": "Now problem is, of course, every industrialist wants a license." }, { "end_time": "13:39", "start_time": "13:30", "text": "And, sometimes to fund their own enterprises, you have to be very careful about that because you don't want that kind of lending because often that turns bad." }, { "end_time": "13:45", "start_time": "13:39", "text": "So you wanna keep out the who need loans for their business enterprises from running banks." }, { "end_time": "13:46", "start_time": "13:45", "text": "You want bankers to be different." }, { "end_time": "13:48", "start_time": "13:46", "text": "They can be financials." }, { "end_time": "13:52", "start_time": "13:48", "text": "They can be big business houses, but they shouldn't have a financial, industrial interest." }, { "end_time": "13:54", "start_time": "13:53", "text": "So that's part of the law." }, { "end_time": "13:55", "start_time": "13:54", "text": "How do you make that?" }, { "end_time": "14:00", "start_time": "13:55", "text": "So we pushed regulation which said we won't have industrial houses owning banks." }, { "end_time": "14:02", "start_time": "14:00", "text": "Then the question was what kind of banks?" }, { "end_time": "14:09", "start_time": "14:03", "text": "So, normal bank that you see, you know, SBI, ICICI, that was 1." }, { "end_time": "14:11", "start_time": "14:09", "text": "But then we created 2 other kinds of banks." }, { "end_time": "14:15", "start_time": "14:11", "text": "One was the small finance bank for these microfinance institutions." }, { "end_time": "14:18", "start_time": "14:16", "text": "They were lending to many small people." }, { "end_time": "14:19", "start_time": "14:18", "text": "How do we expand that?" }, { "end_time": "14:23", "start_time": "14:19", "text": "Because we want more people to get get financing." }, { "end_time": "14:25", "start_time": "14:23", "text": "So we created something called a small finance bank." }, { "end_time": "14:28", "start_time": "14:26", "text": "And that was another, license." }, { "end_time": "14:30", "start_time": "14:28", "text": "And then the third was payment bank." }, { "end_time": "14:41", "start_time": "14:30", "text": "The lots of telecoms, this, that, which Paytm, or, you know, Jio, who can actually reach everybody." }, { "end_time": "14:47", "start_time": "14:43", "text": "And and that would be a a gain for people in terms of making payments." }, { "end_time": "14:52", "start_time": "14:48", "text": "So we created another license which we call we call the payment bank license." }, { "end_time": "14:57", "start_time": "14:52", "text": "Now we knew that some of the licenses would not be successful." }, { "end_time": "15:03", "start_time": "14:58", "text": "Some of these forms of licenses over time we'll see how successful they are and we may have to reform them." }, { "end_time": "15:07", "start_time": "15:03", "text": "Is there things that only pan out when they are in the real world?" }, { "end_time": "15:09", "start_time": "15:07", "text": "That's what you need to be always alert for." }, { "end_time": "15:10", "start_time": "15:09", "text": "Does it work?" }, { "end_time": "15:13", "start_time": "15:11", "text": "And ultimately you can theorize how much ever you want." }, { "end_time": "15:18", "start_time": "15:14", "text": "The proof of the pudding is seeing it on the ground and seeing whether it works." }, { "end_time": "15:20", "start_time": "15:18", "text": "Because you can never predict human behavior." }, { "end_time": "15:24", "start_time": "15:20", "text": "You can never predict human behavior and economics is all about human behavior." }, { "end_time": "15:24", "start_time": "15:24", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "15:27", "start_time": "15:24", "text": "You propose, but the public disposes." }, { "end_time": "15:34", "start_time": "15:28", "text": "And so what you have to see is we have licensed so many banks." }, { "end_time": "15:37", "start_time": "15:34", "text": "That licensing procedure had to be totally transparent." }, { "end_time": "15:44", "start_time": "15:38", "text": "Because otherwise people will accuse you that so and so, you know, bought their license by paying appropriate bribes." }, { "end_time": "15:50", "start_time": "15:45", "text": "So we got the most, respectable people on the licensing committee from outside." }, { "end_time": "15:56", "start_time": "15:50", "text": "We had 3 stages, 1 internal, 1 and finally up to the committee, and then finally up to the RBI board." }, { "end_time": "16:03", "start_time": "15:56", "text": "So nobody has ever raised a question about that licensing process because it was totally clean." }, { "end_time": "16:13", "start_time": "16:03", "text": "Now, you know, in the middle of that, I read an article in The Economist saying, oh, rumor has it that licenses are going for $75,000,000 a piece." }, { "end_time": "16:14", "start_time": "16:13", "text": "I said, wow." }, { "end_time": "16:19", "start_time": "16:14", "text": "I I wish I knew who was paying that and to whom because I'm not seeing any of it." }, { "end_time": "16:21", "start_time": "16:19", "text": "But we did that transparent process." }, { "end_time": "16:25", "start_time": "16:21", "text": "It went through and I think a whole bunch of those banks are now flashing." }, { "end_time": "16:33", "start_time": "16:25", "text": "When I see a bank on the mainstream and I say, I feel good about it that we are seeing some progress." }, { "end_time": "16:36", "start_time": "16:33", "text": "I'm also sure there's countless more stories like this from your tenure." }, { "end_time": "16:43", "start_time": "16:37", "text": "And you probably just used this one example to explain this economics 101 conversation that we're having." }, { "end_time": "16:46", "start_time": "16:44", "text": "I have to ask you that second supplemental question also." }, { "end_time": "16:50", "start_time": "16:47", "text": "How is the RBI governor's role different from the chief economic advisor?" }, { "end_time": "16:51", "start_time": "16:50", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "16:55", "start_time": "16:51", "text": "Different from the people within the finance ministry and the finance minister, Hassan?" }, { "end_time": "16:59", "start_time": "16:55", "text": "So the RBI governor does a bunch of things." }, { "end_time": "17:03", "start_time": "16:59", "text": "1, of course, is they, govern the money supply." }, { "end_time": "17:07", "start_time": "17:04", "text": "I mean, most people understand it is RBI prints notes." }, { "end_time": "17:11", "start_time": "17:07", "text": "It prints notes, but it does a lot else in terms of governing the money supply." }, { "end_time": "17:16", "start_time": "17:11", "text": "Biggest concern is the reserves that are out there in the system." }, { "end_time": "17:18", "start_time": "17:16", "text": "These are words I'm going to throw out." }, { "end_time": "17:19", "start_time": "17:18", "text": "You don't need to understand." }, { "end_time": "17:22", "start_time": "17:20", "text": "The pub, audience doesn't need to understand them." }, { "end_time": "17:24", "start_time": "17:22", "text": "Things like liquidity, they manage." }, { "end_time": "17:25", "start_time": "17:24", "text": "Then interest rates they set." }, { "end_time": "17:30", "start_time": "17:26", "text": "That is an important part of the, of what the RBI does." }, { "end_time": "17:37", "start_time": "17:30", "text": "It sets it high enough to keep activity from not going too fast, more inflation, or too slow, more recession." }, { "end_time": "17:40", "start_time": "17:38", "text": "And it keeps it in in the right place." }, { "end_time": "17:41", "start_time": "17:40", "text": "That varies." }, { "end_time": "17:43", "start_time": "17:41", "text": "That is something that it has to think about." }, { "end_time": "17:46", "start_time": "17:43", "text": "And that's why we have a monetary policy committee." }, { "end_time": "17:52", "start_time": "17:47", "text": "One of the things I did was to set up that monetary policy committee to make those decisions." }, { "end_time": "17:54", "start_time": "17:52", "text": "Because earlier it was only the governor making decisions." }, { "end_time": "17:57", "start_time": "17:54", "text": "I thought that was too much on one person." }, { "end_time": "17:59", "start_time": "17:57", "text": "It had to be a broader process." }, { "end_time": "18:09", "start_time": "18:00", "text": "But I think that, one of the most important differences within the RBI is it has these set rules." }, { "end_time": "18:18", "start_time": "18:09", "text": "The ministry is more about fulfilling the, sort of, promises of the government in power." }, { "end_time": "18:19", "start_time": "18:19", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "18:25", "start_time": "18:19", "text": "So the ministry is run by the finance minister who is a politic politician typically." }, { "end_time": "18:31", "start_time": "18:26", "text": "And so, they have to do what, you know, they promised the people." }, { "end_time": "18:35", "start_time": "18:32", "text": "And the RBI on the other hand is more a technocratic institution." }, { "end_time": "18:39", "start_time": "18:36", "text": "So typically, the objectives are aligned." }, { "end_time": "18:40", "start_time": "18:39", "text": "We both want growth." }, { "end_time": "18:41", "start_time": "18:40", "text": "We both want development." }, { "end_time": "18:45", "start_time": "18:41", "text": "We both want low inflation, but sometimes they diverge." }, { "end_time": "18:54", "start_time": "18:46", "text": "So for example, you know, before, an election, the ministry might want, you know, please cut interest rates." }, { "end_time": "18:57", "start_time": "18:54", "text": "It's gonna be better for for reelection." }, { "end_time": "18:59", "start_time": "18:57", "text": "People don't like high interest rates." }, { "end_time": "19:00", "start_time": "18:59", "text": "Don't keep growth too tight." }, { "end_time": "19:02", "start_time": "19:00", "text": "Let growth go." }, { "end_time": "19:04", "start_time": "19:02", "text": "That might be the incentives." }, { "end_time": "19:10", "start_time": "19:05", "text": "On the other hand, if the RBI is a technocratic institution, it's saying, no, no, that'll prompt inflation." }, { "end_time": "19:13", "start_time": "19:10", "text": "We don't really care about which government is in power." }, { "end_time": "19:16", "start_time": "19:13", "text": "We care about inflation in the in the longer term." }, { "end_time": "19:18", "start_time": "19:16", "text": "So there are some differences." }, { "end_time": "19:25", "start_time": "19:18", "text": "Typically, you know, there's more agreement, between the RBI and, and the and the finance ministry." }, { "end_time": "19:31", "start_time": "19:25", "text": "But of course, in the finance ministry, the attempt always is to boost growth." }, { "end_time": "19:35", "start_time": "19:32", "text": "In the RBI, it is to keep inflation under control." }, { "end_time": "19:37", "start_time": "19:35", "text": "So sometimes there are interesting conversations." }, { "end_time": "19:40", "start_time": "19:39", "text": "2nd of a co founder relationship." }, { "end_time": "19:43", "start_time": "19:40", "text": "1 co founder is aggressive, wants too much growth." }, { "end_time": "19:45", "start_time": "19:43", "text": "The other co founder is the play it safe." }, { "end_time": "19:45", "start_time": "19:45", "text": "Hey, listen." }, { "end_time": "19:47", "start_time": "19:45", "text": "Let's not get too crazy." }, { "end_time": "19:49", "start_time": "19:47", "text": "That's a very good way of describing it." }, { "end_time": "19:50", "start_time": "19:50", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "19:55", "start_time": "19:51", "text": "And and of course, the problem is one co founder is appointed by the other cofounder." }, { "end_time": "20:00", "start_time": "19:56", "text": "So so this is why people keep saying we need independence." }, { "end_time": "20:15", "start_time": "20:00", "text": "And there's a certain amount of independence which has developed over time through custom That, the RBI, even though the governor is appointed by the finance minister along with the prime minister, over time develops a certain kind of independence of their own." }, { "end_time": "20:20", "start_time": "20:15", "text": "I can't imagine how many human dynamics and power dynamics are at play when all this is happening." }, { "end_time": "20:20", "start_time": "20:20", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "20:21", "start_time": "20:20", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "20:23", "start_time": "20:21", "text": "There there there is a lot." }, { "end_time": "20:29", "start_time": "20:23", "text": "And and, you know, I mean, the Indian government is a complex institution." }, { "end_time": "20:38", "start_time": "20:30", "text": "And, there are I mean, apart from objective differences, there are also, cohort differences." }, { "end_time": "20:47", "start_time": "20:39", "text": "The IS is a very strong and powerful, sort of, force within the government and they have their own sort of issues." }, { "end_time": "20:55", "start_time": "20:47", "text": "So it's an interesting I think sociologists would have a fun time looking at all this and examining the different behaviors." }, { "end_time": "20:56", "start_time": "20:55", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "20:57", "start_time": "20:56", "text": "And where does the CEO come in?" }, { "end_time": "20:58", "start_time": "20:57", "text": "Chief economic advisor." }, { "end_time": "21:04", "start_time": "20:58", "text": "Chief economic advisor is supposed to be the technical sort of adviser to the finance minister." }, { "end_time": "21:10", "start_time": "21:05", "text": "So essentially, they're trying to tell the finance minister, okay, you want to do this." }, { "end_time": "21:14", "start_time": "21:10", "text": "This is the best way of doing it, economically speaking." }, { "end_time": "21:15", "start_time": "21:14", "text": "Be careful." }, { "end_time": "21:17", "start_time": "21:15", "text": "Don't do this, but do that." }, { "end_time": "21:23", "start_time": "21:18", "text": "So for example, let's say the idea is we want to boost growth, by reducing taxes." }, { "end_time": "21:26", "start_time": "21:24", "text": "Where do you where do you reduce taxes?" }, { "end_time": "21:28", "start_time": "21:26", "text": "Do you reduce taxes so as to enhance investment?" }, { "end_time": "21:37", "start_time": "21:29", "text": "That is you reduce it for corporations making investment, or do you reduce it on, Amjunta so that they can have more money that they can spend?" }, { "end_time": "21:38", "start_time": "21:37", "text": "Which one do you do?" }, { "end_time": "21:39", "start_time": "21:38", "text": "How do you do it?" }, { "end_time": "21:44", "start_time": "21:39", "text": "Those are the kinds of issues that the chief economic adviser would advise the government about." }, { "end_time": "21:47", "start_time": "21:45", "text": "Is that a job profile that ever interested you?" }, { "end_time": "21:52", "start_time": "21:49", "text": "I think it is a necessary job profile." }, { "end_time": "21:55", "start_time": "21:53", "text": "You need to understand how the government works." }, { "end_time": "22:03", "start_time": "21:56", "text": "If you want to be in something like the Reserve Bank, you need to understand, you know, here are the dynamics at work." }, { "end_time": "22:04", "start_time": "22:03", "text": "Here are the concerns." }, { "end_time": "22:12", "start_time": "22:04", "text": "It is also a place where the political establishment gets to assess you." }, { "end_time": "22:16", "start_time": "22:12", "text": "Are you I mean, before entrusting you with with too much power." }, { "end_time": "22:21", "start_time": "22:16", "text": "So a number of chief economic advisers have become governor, Bimal Jalan, for example." }, { "end_time": "22:31", "start_time": "22:22", "text": "And and I think it it breeds a certain amount of trust, when you have a chief economic adviser interacting with the finance minister of the day." }, { "end_time": "22:31", "start_time": "22:31", "text": "Gotcha." }, { "end_time": "22:37", "start_time": "22:32", "text": "So all in all, the CA kind of feeds into that aggressive cofounder, which is the government." }, { "end_time": "22:49", "start_time": "22:37", "text": "The RBI governor and his team or her team are the, like slightly played safe individuals in order to keep the safety of the country's economic growth at the forefront." }, { "end_time": "22:50", "start_time": "22:49", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "22:50", "start_time": "22:50", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "22:52", "start_time": "22:51", "text": "And this creates interesting dynamics." }, { "end_time": "23:02", "start_time": "22:52", "text": "I'll tell you one story where one gentleman, and I won't name names here, who was on the, you said, aggressive cofounder side." }, { "end_time": "23:04", "start_time": "23:02", "text": "That is on the ministry side." }, { "end_time": "23:08", "start_time": "23:04", "text": "I won't reveal his position because it'll become very clear who he was." }, { "end_time": "23:17", "start_time": "23:08", "text": "Wrote a very strong letter to the reserve bank saying you must do this, this, this because you're holding back, these developments." }, { "end_time": "23:21", "start_time": "23:18", "text": "And then in the middle, he wrote the letter, no reply." }, { "end_time": "23:27", "start_time": "23:22", "text": "In the middle, he got shifted and became deputy governor in the RBI." }, { "end_time": "23:37", "start_time": "23:27", "text": "And he had the objective he had the task of responding to the letter that he had written himself from the finance ministry to the RBI." }, { "end_time": "23:42", "start_time": "23:37", "text": "And he wrote back rejecting all the demands that he had put forward." }, { "end_time": "23:47", "start_time": "23:43", "text": "So the point is not that this is silly government." }, { "end_time": "23:51", "start_time": "23:48", "text": "The point is that within the government, you have checks and balances." }, { "end_time": "23:56", "start_time": "23:52", "text": "And each, institution has its objectives." }, { "end_time": "24:06", "start_time": "23:56", "text": "And I think when they were both work, you know, in a in a broader spirit of cooperation, but each one focusing on what they are supposed to do, it works well." }, { "end_time": "24:15", "start_time": "24:06", "text": "And sometimes you get these strange situations where the same person, but with a different objective will respond differently to that particular issue." }, { "end_time": "24:16", "start_time": "24:15", "text": "And I think this is okay." }, { "end_time": "24:17", "start_time": "24:16", "text": "This is healthy." }, { "end_time": "24:18", "start_time": "24:18", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "24:27", "start_time": "24:18", "text": "The the example that you use right now about how there can be differences between the RBI think tank and the government think tank, I think you highlighted election season." }, { "end_time": "24:31", "start_time": "24:28", "text": "So that when election season is coming up, a lot happens in the country." }, { "end_time": "24:34", "start_time": "24:31", "text": "Because the government in power would be trying to stay in power." }, { "end_time": "24:36", "start_time": "24:34", "text": "And the opposition would be trying to gain power as well." }, { "end_time": "24:42", "start_time": "24:37", "text": "The one thing I have learnt about a politician's life is that its starkly divided into 2 parts." }, { "end_time": "24:45", "start_time": "24:43", "text": "In the first one, the mission is to get elected." }, { "end_time": "24:47", "start_time": "24:45", "text": "In the second one, the mission is governance." }, { "end_time": "24:56", "start_time": "24:48", "text": "Now the thing is in that whole process about trying to get elected, it does change behavioral battle, it does change decision making, etcetera, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "24:59", "start_time": "24:56", "text": "And I kind of don't blame them because that's how the system is built." }, { "end_time": "25:05", "start_time": "25:00", "text": "You're saying that during the election season, it kind of bothered your work as well." }, { "end_time": "25:19", "start_time": "25:05", "text": "My question to you is say if a government gets elected, and they know they are going to be in power over the next tenure, do they still have a large say or do they oppose you a lot in your functioning as the RBI Governor?" }, { "end_time": "25:19", "start_time": "25:19", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "25:24", "start_time": "25:19", "text": "See, let me give you an example because I think again, examples make it more concrete." }, { "end_time": "25:25", "start_time": "25:24", "text": "Sure." }, { "end_time": "25:36", "start_time": "25:26", "text": "In the run up to an election, there's a great incentive to waive loans, especially to the agriculture sector, which is politically very important." }, { "end_time": "25:44", "start_time": "25:37", "text": "So farmer loan waivers are very, very, sort of become pressing for every candidate to announce." }, { "end_time": "25:55", "start_time": "25:48", "text": "And the problem, of course, is that once you become the new government, you have to find money to pay for all that." }, { "end_time": "26:08", "start_time": "25:55", "text": "Because when you say it's waiver, it means the government is gonna pay the debt to the banks because somebody has to pay other banks will make losses, and that won't be, you know, permissible in the long run." }, { "end_time": "26:15", "start_time": "26:08", "text": "So when the government comes into part, then it says, how will we get the money to pay for all this?" }, { "end_time": "26:22", "start_time": "26:16", "text": "We have just announced such a big thing, and we've also got so much else to do on the development front." }, { "end_time": "26:23", "start_time": "26:22", "text": "We need to build roads." }, { "end_time": "26:24", "start_time": "26:23", "text": "We need to build airports." }, { "end_time": "26:28", "start_time": "26:24", "text": "We need to, you know, provide, transfers to the most needy." }, { "end_time": "26:30", "start_time": "26:29", "text": "So there's a lot of demands." }, { "end_time": "26:34", "start_time": "26:30", "text": "And so invariably, what used to happen is they do the loan waiver." }, { "end_time": "26:41", "start_time": "26:34", "text": "And then after they do the loan waiver and they win the election, they come and say, Acha, please help us." }, { "end_time": "26:45", "start_time": "26:42", "text": "And you say, you know, how can I help you?" }, { "end_time": "26:47", "start_time": "26:45", "text": "You know, forbearance." }, { "end_time": "26:49", "start_time": "26:47", "text": "Don't don't, you know, let us do this." }, { "end_time": "26:50", "start_time": "26:49", "text": "Let us do that." }, { "end_time": "26:59", "start_time": "26:51", "text": "But the problem, of course, is once they get into part, they have to govern exactly what you said, promises earlier, which some of which are not the greatest promise." }, { "end_time": "27:03", "start_time": "26:59", "text": "But then governance has to happen after they get elected." }, { "end_time": "27:05", "start_time": "27:03", "text": "And then if there's no money, how do you govern?" }, { "end_time": "27:09", "start_time": "27:06", "text": "You need some money to make investments and so on." }, { "end_time": "27:17", "start_time": "27:09", "text": "I think it's important to be a little careful in the promises you make because, you do need to have the ability to govern afterwards." }, { "end_time": "27:19", "start_time": "27:17", "text": "Have you had to sort situations like this?" }, { "end_time": "27:20", "start_time": "27:19", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "27:23", "start_time": "27:20", "text": "And have you had to give in to government's demands?" }, { "end_time": "27:23", "start_time": "27:23", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "27:26", "start_time": "27:23", "text": "I mean, many of these were state governments." }, { "end_time": "27:32", "start_time": "27:26", "text": "And, but, you know, state governments have some backing also from the central government sometimes." }, { "end_time": "27:35", "start_time": "27:32", "text": "And you have to say, look, you know, this is not good practice." }, { "end_time": "27:38", "start_time": "27:35", "text": "I can do this, but I can't do that." }, { "end_time": "27:43", "start_time": "27:38", "text": "What we have to do is find something which works in the broader scheme of things." }, { "end_time": "27:55", "start_time": "27:43", "text": "But also, I mean, ultimately, even though we, you know, politicians have to do what they have to do, as a regulatory institution, if you give in too easily, you make it easier for them to do it." }, { "end_time": "28:00", "start_time": "27:55", "text": "And in fact, they will feel upset that you made it easy because next time they have to do it again." }, { "end_time": "28:02", "start_time": "28:00", "text": "They would rather that you stop them." }, { "end_time": "28:10", "start_time": "28:03", "text": "In fact, they would you know, I think the the right thing was would be they would make all the promises upfront, And then you'd come in and say, no." }, { "end_time": "28:11", "start_time": "28:10", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "28:11", "start_time": "28:11", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "28:11", "start_time": "28:11", "text": "You can't." }, { "end_time": "28:18", "start_time": "28:12", "text": "I mean, many politicians would love the courts to stop them from doing that because then they'll have the money to do the governance afterwards." }, { "end_time": "28:21", "start_time": "28:19", "text": "If they're stopped by the courts, they can blame the courts." }, { "end_time": "28:23", "start_time": "28:21", "text": "And perhaps they can publicly blame you also." }, { "end_time": "28:24", "start_time": "28:23", "text": "They can blame me." }, { "end_time": "28:31", "start_time": "28:24", "text": "Actually, this was, I mean, this is the role of independent institutions to take some of the blame." }, { "end_time": "28:37", "start_time": "28:31", "text": "And and but, you know, you need to allow them to be independent then then they can absorb the blame." }, { "end_time": "28:38", "start_time": "28:37", "text": "Was it a fun stint?" }, { "end_time": "28:52", "start_time": "28:39", "text": "I think it was a very fulfilling stint because there were many days you left at the end of the day, you know, 7, 8 o'clock meetings all day, but you felt you accomplished something." }, { "end_time": "28:54", "start_time": "28:53", "text": "We moved the needle." }, { "end_time": "28:58", "start_time": "28:55", "text": "That is something you rarely get in any job." }, { "end_time": "29:04", "start_time": "28:59", "text": "Partly because most jobs, what you're doing is you're pushing the paper to somebody else." }, { "end_time": "29:10", "start_time": "29:05", "text": "Even if you, you know, agree, there's somebody else who has to take the decision." }, { "end_time": "29:15", "start_time": "29:11", "text": "At the Reserve Bank, a lot of the decisions you could take yourself." }, { "end_time": "29:16", "start_time": "29:15", "text": "You didn't have to move it elsewhere." }, { "end_time": "29:22", "start_time": "29:16", "text": "So if we debated the whole day within the bank and we said, you could do it." }, { "end_time": "29:24", "start_time": "29:22", "text": "You didn't have to ask for further permission." }, { "end_time": "29:30", "start_time": "29:24", "text": "And that allowed you to feel at the end of the day that you actually had made a difference." }, { "end_time": "29:32", "start_time": "29:30", "text": "And in public service, there's no better feeling." }, { "end_time": "29:39", "start_time": "29:33", "text": "What in your heart or in your eyes was your biggest achievement?" }, { "end_time": "29:49", "start_time": "29:41", "text": "I think, there are I mean, I'll I'll I'll instead of one, let me name name 4." }, { "end_time": "29:51", "start_time": "29:50", "text": "We brought down inflation." }, { "end_time": "29:54", "start_time": "29:51", "text": "Inflation was at near double digits." }, { "end_time": "30:08", "start_time": "29:54", "text": "We brought it down, and we ensured it would stay low over time by creating this inflation committee process, making inflation the fundamental focus of, of of the Reserve Bank." }, { "end_time": "30:09", "start_time": "30:08", "text": "So that was 1." }, { "end_time": "30:19", "start_time": "30:10", "text": "We started UPI, direct money transfers that you make all the time through Paytm or through, you know, phone pay." }, { "end_time": "30:21", "start_time": "30:19", "text": "That was started in my time." }, { "end_time": "30:22", "start_time": "30:21", "text": "It was ideated in your time as well?" }, { "end_time": "30:24", "start_time": "30:22", "text": "It was ideated also." }, { "end_time": "30:27", "start_time": "30:24", "text": "But, the the I mean, success has many fathers." }, { "end_time": "30:32", "start_time": "30:27", "text": "So I don't want to claim that, that we ideated it, but we brought it out." }, { "end_time": "30:42", "start_time": "30:32", "text": "The single most important contribution I think that we made in that was to allow the non banks, to actually offer that service." }, { "end_time": "30:45", "start_time": "30:42", "text": "Otherwise, the banks wanted to monopolize it." }, { "end_time": "30:49", "start_time": "30:45", "text": "Today, 95% of transactions are done by the non banks." }, { "end_time": "30:55", "start_time": "30:49", "text": "So that was very important in the success of these, transfers that are made." }, { "end_time": "30:59", "start_time": "30:55", "text": "So that was, I think, a second, very important." }, { "end_time": "31:06", "start_time": "30:59", "text": "And third, we started the cleanup of the banks Because banks had a lot of bad loans and they had built up over time." }, { "end_time": "31:09", "start_time": "31:06", "text": "There were some business houses which just refused to pay." }, { "end_time": "31:19", "start_time": "31:09", "text": "And so we had to get them to start paying, get them to see the loan as a commitment to repay because ultimately the taxpayer was bearing the burden of those bad loans." }, { "end_time": "31:27", "start_time": "31:19", "text": "And so we started that process of cleaning up how much bad loans there were and then started putting pressure." }, { "end_time": "31:40", "start_time": "31:27", "text": "One of my best moments in the last year was when I met one of the promoters at a conference, and he said, sir, We gave it back." }, { "end_time": "31:41", "start_time": "31:40", "text": "And I said, wow." }, { "end_time": "31:53", "start_time": "31:42", "text": "For somebody to feel proud that they repaid, when earlier the sense was pride that we're not repaying, we have made a joke of the system." }, { "end_time": "31:56", "start_time": "31:54", "text": "I think that was a change in culture." }, { "end_time": "31:57", "start_time": "31:56", "text": "So I mean, those are the 3 things." }, { "end_time": "32:01", "start_time": "31:57", "text": "I mean, I came in when there was a lot of worry about the rupee." }, { "end_time": "32:02", "start_time": "32:01", "text": "The rupee was falling." }, { "end_time": "32:05", "start_time": "32:02", "text": "We were part of the, taper tantrum." }, { "end_time": "32:10", "start_time": "32:06", "text": "There was a talk that we were fragile 5, one of the fragile 5." }, { "end_time": "32:20", "start_time": "32:11", "text": "And we brought back the system from that rupee collapsing, rupee strengthened, foreign exchange started coming in." }, { "end_time": "32:24", "start_time": "32:20", "text": "There's more confidence and that has remained." }, { "end_time": "32:28", "start_time": "32:24", "text": "I think the rupee has performed quite well over time." }, { "end_time": "32:30", "start_time": "32:28", "text": "A lot of confidence in the system." }, { "end_time": "32:31", "start_time": "32:30", "text": "Inflation has been contained." }, { "end_time": "32:35", "start_time": "32:31", "text": "It's not been those huge rates of inflation we've seen in the past." }, { "end_time": "32:39", "start_time": "32:36", "text": "And I think all this is good change which has come." }, { "end_time": "32:43", "start_time": "32:39", "text": "We had Aatishi from the AAP on the show, on the Hindi podcast." }, { "end_time": "32:47", "start_time": "32:43", "text": "And from every political podcast, especially I have a few takeaways." }, { "end_time": "32:50", "start_time": "32:48", "text": "So my question to her was about freebies." }, { "end_time": "32:54", "start_time": "32:50", "text": "Because the AAP is known for distributing freebies in Delhi." }, { "end_time": "32:57", "start_time": "32:54", "text": "Free electricity, free water up till a certain point." }, { "end_time": "33:04", "start_time": "32:57", "text": "So I asked her that economically speaking, can all governments actually afford to do this?" }, { "end_time": "33:08", "start_time": "33:04", "text": "Because that will help the country or it will help the lower strata immensely financially." }, { "end_time": "33:12", "start_time": "33:09", "text": "Her response was, Yes, if there was no corruption." }, { "end_time": "33:28", "start_time": "33:12", "text": "Is it true that there's enough money with the central government for example, which can be distributed as freebies for the lower status of society if the government was entirely corruption free in all layers." }, { "end_time": "33:41", "start_time": "33:30", "text": "So one of the changes which has been very beneficial over the last few years is the use of, data and, and direct transfers." }, { "end_time": "33:49", "start_time": "33:43", "text": "That has made it possible to reduce the amount of corruption in the flow of money to the final beneficiary." }, { "end_time": "33:54", "start_time": "33:50", "text": "So we can know who the final beneficiary is." }, { "end_time": "33:56", "start_time": "33:54", "text": "We can transfer directly into their bank account." }, { "end_time": "34:04", "start_time": "33:56", "text": "And through periodic filtering using Aadhaar, this, that, we can filter out the people who shouldn't be receiving benefits." }, { "end_time": "34:10", "start_time": "34:05", "text": "Nevertheless, it is still difficult targeting the very poor because who's very poor, right?" }, { "end_time": "34:13", "start_time": "34:10", "text": "You can say, Achal, you shouldn't have a car." }, { "end_time": "34:15", "start_time": "34:13", "text": "You shouldn't have a government job." }, { "end_time": "34:16", "start_time": "34:15", "text": "You shouldn't have this." }, { "end_time": "34:17", "start_time": "34:16", "text": "Those are exclusion." }, { "end_time": "34:25", "start_time": "34:18", "text": "But if you apply all those, you maybe get rid of 20% of the people that leave the remaining 80%." }, { "end_time": "34:28", "start_time": "34:25", "text": "Now who amongst them is the very poor?" }, { "end_time": "34:38", "start_time": "34:29", "text": "I think it's useful to allow the very poor to have some ability to improve their lives, to invest in their children, to make a difference." }, { "end_time": "34:40", "start_time": "34:38", "text": "And that's what we talk about in this book." }, { "end_time": "34:44", "start_time": "34:40", "text": "How do we get an upliftment of the very poor?" }, { "end_time": "34:48", "start_time": "34:44", "text": "Because if we want to become a rich country, the poor have to become much richer." }, { "end_time": "34:52", "start_time": "34:48", "text": "They have to invest in health care, in nutrition, in education." }, { "end_time": "34:56", "start_time": "34:52", "text": "And if they don't do it when the kids are very young, it's too late." }, { "end_time": "35:04", "start_time": "34:56", "text": "By age 5, the child is effectively, you know, if the child hasn't got good nutrition is effectively crippled for the rest of their life." }, { "end_time": "35:10", "start_time": "35:04", "text": "So if you give them a certain amount of money, if they spend it on better food, healthier food." }, { "end_time": "35:10", "start_time": "35:10", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "35:15", "start_time": "35:10", "text": "Today, everybody gets free free food grains, but maybe they need more vegetables." }, { "end_time": "35:18", "start_time": "35:15", "text": "Maybe they need they need more ghee, maybe dal." }, { "end_time": "35:21", "start_time": "35:19", "text": "How do you allow them to make that choice?" }, { "end_time": "35:34", "start_time": "35:21", "text": "Maybe they want to send the child to a slightly better private school because the public school when I talk private school, I'm talking about a small school, which is run by people who take some fees, not those, daily public school, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "35:38", "start_time": "35:34", "text": "But if you want them to do that, can you give them a certain amount of money?" }, { "end_time": "35:49", "start_time": "35:38", "text": "This will be beneficial because it'll uplift when you invest in your family, when you invest in your children, invest in human resources, which in the long run is really good for the country." }, { "end_time": "35:52", "start_time": "35:49", "text": "So targeted transfers, I'm not against." }, { "end_time": "36:03", "start_time": "35:53", "text": "The problem comes when you just spread it around to all in sundry as a you know, political mimic." }, { "end_time": "36:05", "start_time": "36:04", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "36:07", "start_time": "36:05", "text": "And that becomes problematic." }, { "end_time": "36:08", "start_time": "36:07", "text": "Now how to tell the difference?" }, { "end_time": "36:13", "start_time": "36:09", "text": "I mean, there is the degree of targeting which is very important." }, { "end_time": "36:16", "start_time": "36:13", "text": "So you should basically focus on the needy population." }, { "end_time": "36:21", "start_time": "36:18", "text": "And and then the how do you what do you target?" }, { "end_time": "36:37", "start_time": "36:21", "text": "So offering it in in actual goods, so much electricity, so much gas, so much of this thing is a little more, problematic because then the beneficiary has to take so much, and they may not need all that." }, { "end_time": "36:40", "start_time": "36:38", "text": "So for example, food grains." }, { "end_time": "36:46", "start_time": "36:40", "text": "If I give you so much food grain, because so cheap, you're tempted to just eat the food grain." }, { "end_time": "36:48", "start_time": "36:46", "text": "But maybe you need a more balanced diet." }, { "end_time": "36:54", "start_time": "36:48", "text": "But because vegetables cost so much relative to the food grain, you fill your stomach with the food grain." }, { "end_time": "36:55", "start_time": "36:54", "text": "And then you get malnutrition." }, { "end_time": "37:00", "start_time": "36:56", "text": "You get all the diseases associated with bad, diets." }, { "end_time": "37:09", "start_time": "37:00", "text": "So, ideally I would give you money to buy the food grains and the vegetables and the dals that you need for a balanced diet." }, { "end_time": "37:14", "start_time": "37:11", "text": "So direct money transfers I think are very good." }, { "end_time": "37:17", "start_time": "37:14", "text": "They empower the very poor if properly targeted." }, { "end_time": "37:22", "start_time": "37:18", "text": "You know, free electricity, free food, grains, etcetera, becomes more problematic." }, { "end_time": "37:25", "start_time": "37:22", "text": "Let me give you an example of free electricity becoming a problem." }, { "end_time": "37:28", "start_time": "37:25", "text": "If you give free electricity to the farmers, what happens?" }, { "end_time": "37:32", "start_time": "37:29", "text": "Well, they use it to dig bore wells and lift the water." }, { "end_time": "37:33", "start_time": "37:32", "text": "That's good." }, { "end_time": "37:36", "start_time": "37:33", "text": "But poor farmers can't dig deep bore wells." }, { "end_time": "37:37", "start_time": "37:36", "text": "They cost a lot of money." }, { "end_time": "37:40", "start_time": "37:38", "text": "Rich farmers can dig much deeper." }, { "end_time": "37:44", "start_time": "37:40", "text": "So what happens, the water gets evacuated by the rich farmers." }, { "end_time": "37:49", "start_time": "37:44", "text": "They get dig deeper and the water table, the level at which the water is falls deeper and deeper." }, { "end_time": "37:53", "start_time": "37:49", "text": "So the poor farmers who can dig shallow bore wells don't get any water." }, { "end_time": "37:54", "start_time": "37:53", "text": "This becomes very unequal." }, { "end_time": "37:56", "start_time": "37:55", "text": "And this is not theory." }, { "end_time": "37:58", "start_time": "37:56", "text": "This is actual practice what happens." }, { "end_time": "38:04", "start_time": "37:59", "text": "So there are examples when you give free this or free that, it hurts some of the poor also." }, { "end_time": "38:06", "start_time": "38:04", "text": "You have to make sure that that doesn't happen." }, { "end_time": "38:15", "start_time": "38:06", "text": "Using the data we have because of adhar, we kind of at least have an idea about where the poor agenda is." }, { "end_time": "38:17", "start_time": "38:15", "text": "You give it to the women." }, { "end_time": "38:20", "start_time": "38:17", "text": "That that a lot of states are starting to do." }, { "end_time": "38:21", "start_time": "38:20", "text": "That's the idea they have." }, { "end_time": "38:30", "start_time": "38:21", "text": "And and yes, that is in a a option because there's a sense whether right or wrong that the women will invest more in their children." }, { "end_time": "38:33", "start_time": "38:31", "text": "There's also a sense the men will blow it on drink." }, { "end_time": "38:36", "start_time": "38:33", "text": "That's not That's what I would assume as well." }, { "end_time": "38:38", "start_time": "38:36", "text": "Evidence is it's not that that strong." }, { "end_time": "38:48", "start_time": "38:38", "text": "But but nevertheless, there is a sense that even having the woman control the bank account, unfortunately, in our country, there's an imbalance between the man and the woman." }, { "end_time": "38:55", "start_time": "38:48", "text": "And giving the woman access to the household finances, is a positive step in empowering women." }, { "end_time": "38:57", "start_time": "38:55", "text": "And that's that's that can be very useful." }, { "end_time": "39:01", "start_time": "38:57", "text": "So I I think absolutely we should do a lot of this." }, { "end_time": "39:04", "start_time": "39:02", "text": "But the key issue, is it affordable?" }, { "end_time": "39:07", "start_time": "39:04", "text": "Comes from how how well you can target." }, { "end_time": "39:15", "start_time": "39:08", "text": "Unfortunately, if you target too, narrowly, there are some poor people who'd be left out." }, { "end_time": "39:16", "start_time": "39:16", "text": "Why?" }, { "end_time": "39:19", "start_time": "39:17", "text": "Because we don't reach everybody." }, { "end_time": "39:19", "start_time": "39:19", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "39:24", "start_time": "39:19", "text": "We have even our Aadhaar doesn't cover every part of the population." }, { "end_time": "39:25", "start_time": "39:24", "text": "Sometimes the poorest are left out." }, { "end_time": "39:31", "start_time": "39:25", "text": "If you do the ration card, sometimes the very poorest don't have the ration card because they're sleeping on the footpath." }, { "end_time": "39:33", "start_time": "39:31", "text": "They don't have any address." }, { "end_time": "39:38", "start_time": "39:33", "text": "They don't have any so we have to make sure nobody who's really poor is excluded." }, { "end_time": "39:48", "start_time": "39:38", "text": "And I think we need to do a better job of ensuring the rich or the richer ones who don't require this are actually excluded." }, { "end_time": "39:57", "start_time": "39:49", "text": "So sometimes, you know, in Indonesia, what they did was they asked the village to identify the rich and to say, okay." }, { "end_time": "40:02", "start_time": "39:57", "text": "We will exclude these based on that village identification process." }, { "end_time": "40:11", "start_time": "40:03", "text": "We should make it a stigma for richer people to benefit from these transfers and, you know, maybe publicize in every village." }, { "end_time": "40:12", "start_time": "40:11", "text": "These are the people getting the transfers." }, { "end_time": "40:17", "start_time": "40:12", "text": "Then people say, Acha, this person has a car already and they're getting a transfer." }, { "end_time": "40:18", "start_time": "40:17", "text": "How is that possible?" }, { "end_time": "40:20", "start_time": "40:18", "text": "So we need the system to work." }, { "end_time": "40:26", "start_time": "40:21", "text": "And some of the information which is not in the system to come into the system without it becoming a police state." }, { "end_time": "40:27", "start_time": "40:26", "text": "Gotcha." }, { "end_time": "40:33", "start_time": "40:28", "text": "Do you think that there is an element of truth in what Aditi said about corruption as well?" }, { "end_time": "40:39", "start_time": "40:34", "text": "That there's corruption that happens in the central government because of which more freebies cannot be given out?" }, { "end_time": "40:41", "start_time": "40:40", "text": "I don't think that is the constraint." }, { "end_time": "40:59", "start_time": "40:42", "text": "I I think, in fact, one of the sort of positive achievements of the last 10, 15 years has been moving to this Adar based direct benefit transfer, which has made the government more efficient in giving direct transfers." }, { "end_time": "41:14", "start_time": "41:01", "text": "That said, I think the problem may be on the other side, and this is where the freebie culture comes in, that, you know, we also want to provide good schools, good health care to the public." }, { "end_time": "41:34", "start_time": "41:15", "text": "But when it becomes really easy to provide the freebie, and that's what, again, what we write about in the book, that when you when you, can put your face on an advertisement, Then who gets the credit?" }, { "end_time": "41:38", "start_time": "41:35", "text": "That big politician whose face is on the front page." }, { "end_time": "41:47", "start_time": "41:38", "text": "And then it becomes very convenient because I want to build up my name for the chief ministers, the prime ministers, whatever, to build themselves on the basis of freebies." }, { "end_time": "41:55", "start_time": "41:48", "text": "It's very hard to say I repaired the school in, the building your school building, repainted it, made it cleaner." }, { "end_time": "42:01", "start_time": "41:55", "text": "When you're sitting, you know, in Delhi or in, in, Lucknow, and the school is in some small area." }, { "end_time": "42:02", "start_time": "42:02", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "42:10", "start_time": "42:03", "text": "You know, if you were a much more decentralized, government like Delhi, then you can claim some credit." }, { "end_time": "42:12", "start_time": "42:10", "text": "And, you know, you were talking about Atishi." }, { "end_time": "42:26", "start_time": "42:12", "text": "What the Delhi government has done right is fix the schools, repainted them so that the quality of education the government schools is now on par with the private schools, including some of these public schools, Delhi public school, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "42:28", "start_time": "42:26", "text": "So that's that's that's a win." }, { "end_time": "42:32", "start_time": "42:28", "text": "That's that's very beneficial, but we need more of that also." }, { "end_time": "42:36", "start_time": "42:32", "text": "Who loses out in this freebies situation?" }, { "end_time": "42:37", "start_time": "42:36", "text": "Freebies are truly given out." }, { "end_time": "42:41", "start_time": "42:37", "text": "And by freebies I mean that little bag of money." }, { "end_time": "42:48", "start_time": "42:41", "text": "That basically what I've gained from this overall answer that you actually put money into the bank account of the poorest of the poor." }, { "end_time": "42:50", "start_time": "42:48", "text": "Does anyone lose out in this process?" }, { "end_time": "42:50", "start_time": "42:50", "text": "Not from that." }, { "end_time": "42:58", "start_time": "42:50", "text": "I think you actually buy prosperity because you give them a chance to have a voice." }, { "end_time": "42:59", "start_time": "42:58", "text": "See, money talks." }, { "end_time": "43:08", "start_time": "43:00", "text": "If that poor person comes with, you know, even to a government of office, they're not treated well." }, { "end_time": "43:16", "start_time": "43:09", "text": "If they go to a shop with 200 rupees or 2,000 rupees in their hand and say, I want to buy, They treat it with respect." }, { "end_time": "43:23", "start_time": "43:17", "text": "So the bottom up freebie gives respect to those people at the bottom." }, { "end_time": "43:35", "start_time": "43:23", "text": "But, and that's as a relatively poor country still, there's only so much we can afford because then the freebie eats into the public provision of services." }, { "end_time": "43:43", "start_time": "43:35", "text": "If you give too many freebies, you can't afford that hospital, you can't afford the school, which also need investment." }, { "end_time": "43:45", "start_time": "43:44", "text": "So it's a it's a trade off." }, { "end_time": "43:46", "start_time": "43:45", "text": "It's a balancing." }, { "end_time": "43:47", "start_time": "43:46", "text": "This is what economics is." }, { "end_time": "43:49", "start_time": "43:47", "text": "This is what economics is." }, { "end_time": "43:49", "start_time": "43:49", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "43:52", "start_time": "43:49", "text": "That what do you sacrifice in order for growth?" }, { "end_time": "43:53", "start_time": "43:52", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "43:54", "start_time": "43:53", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "44:05", "start_time": "43:54", "text": "We had Tahesin Poonal on the show who is a political commentator, and he's often against a lot of stuff that the Modi government does." }, { "end_time": "44:12", "start_time": "44:06", "text": "One of the things he brought up was, I mean, again, I'm giving you a very simple version of what he said." }, { "end_time": "44:32", "start_time": "44:12", "text": "He said something like, though considering the size of our population and the large youth population, every economic win that the Indian Government claims is their own, like that the Modi Government claims is their own in the last 9 to 10 years, would have happened anyway even if a Congress government was in power." }, { "end_time": "44:35", "start_time": "44:33", "text": "How true is that economically?" }, { "end_time": "44:36", "start_time": "44:35", "text": "Or it's an unpredictable?" }, { "end_time": "44:39", "start_time": "44:37", "text": "It's a hard to answer question." }, { "end_time": "44:43", "start_time": "44:40", "text": "Every government carries on the work of previous governments." }, { "end_time": "44:44", "start_time": "44:43", "text": "For for sure." }, { "end_time": "45:01", "start_time": "44:45", "text": "So, for example, when I said that these direct benefit transfers had been rolled out, that was in a sense taking the Aadhaar platform, which was created by the UPA government, and taking it to its logical conclusion, which was rolling out direct benefits to to people." }, { "end_time": "45:06", "start_time": "45:02", "text": "You know, obviously, both governments needed to do the work." }, { "end_time": "45:08", "start_time": "45:07", "text": "Which government gets more credit?" }, { "end_time": "45:09", "start_time": "45:08", "text": "Hard to say." }, { "end_time": "45:16", "start_time": "45:09", "text": "But to say that all the credit belongs to the government past 2014 and none belongs before or vice versa Yeah." }, { "end_time": "45:20", "start_time": "45:17", "text": "I think is is is is is not right." }, { "end_time": "45:25", "start_time": "45:20", "text": "I think a big part of political narrative all over the world is mudslinging in the other direction." }, { "end_time": "45:25", "start_time": "45:25", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "45:26", "start_time": "45:26", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "45:32", "start_time": "45:27", "text": "Now, so so I think it's important to remember that government is is continuity." }, { "end_time": "45:35", "start_time": "45:33", "text": "It builds on the work of previous government." }, { "end_time": "45:36", "start_time": "45:35", "text": "This is what I'm trying to break down, sir." }, { "end_time": "45:38", "start_time": "45:36", "text": "This government is continuity." }, { "end_time": "45:39", "start_time": "45:38", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "45:41", "start_time": "45:39", "text": "This statement, can you break it down more?" }, { "end_time": "45:45", "start_time": "45:41", "text": "Because what changes when the party in power actually changes?" }, { "end_time": "45:47", "start_time": "45:45", "text": "The RBI Governor will be the same." }, { "end_time": "45:51", "start_time": "45:48", "text": "I am assuming even economic policy for a long time will be the same." }, { "end_time": "45:55", "start_time": "45:52", "text": "And the other thing and please correct me if I'm thinking wrong." }, { "end_time": "46:02", "start_time": "45:56", "text": "But I feel like some of the smartest people in the country work in positions of power, work as the CEO." }, { "end_time": "46:04", "start_time": "46:02", "text": "You guys have access to the best minds in the country." }, { "end_time": "46:13", "start_time": "46:04", "text": "Which is why I think it's political narrative from both sides to downplay what their opposition has done." }, { "end_time": "46:13", "start_time": "46:13", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "46:14", "start_time": "46:13", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "46:15", "start_time": "46:14", "text": "I think that that is right." }, { "end_time": "46:19", "start_time": "46:16", "text": "I think there is a fair amount of continuity, but it's not all continuity." }, { "end_time": "46:21", "start_time": "46:19", "text": "So let me give you a couple of examples." }, { "end_time": "46:24", "start_time": "46:24", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "46:27", "start_time": "46:24", "text": "NAREGA, National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme." }, { "end_time": "46:27", "start_time": "46:27", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "46:43", "start_time": "46:28", "text": "That is a scheme by which, people in the villages, when they are desperately needing work, work is made available by the government and they get some amount per day that they work." }, { "end_time": "46:45", "start_time": "46:43", "text": "And, typically, this is hard work." }, { "end_time": "46:49", "start_time": "46:46", "text": "It's not something which is easy to do." }, { "end_time": "46:52", "start_time": "46:49", "text": "I mean, who wants to spend a day in the sun out there?" }, { "end_time": "47:00", "start_time": "46:52", "text": "And, but it puts, food on the table for them when they're in so this is what is called distressed, sort of." }, { "end_time": "47:02", "start_time": "47:00", "text": "It's a safety net for the distressed." }, { "end_time": "47:09", "start_time": "47:02", "text": "And, so what happens is that you see again and again when we have bad times." }, { "end_time": "47:14", "start_time": "47:09", "text": "Remember all those migrants in the cities going back to their villages during COVID." }, { "end_time": "47:22", "start_time": "47:14", "text": "You saw Narega spending go up tremendously because there were a lot of people who had gone back to the villages without work." }, { "end_time": "47:25", "start_time": "47:22", "text": "They didn't own land, but they were from the village." }, { "end_time": "47:31", "start_time": "47:25", "text": "And now they were doing this, you know, getting these, these this work from the government." }, { "end_time": "47:43", "start_time": "47:31", "text": "Now before, the this was a scheme of the UPA government, much criticized by the opposition then of which the current, NDA was was a big part." }, { "end_time": "47:52", "start_time": "47:44", "text": "But, of course, when they came into part, they realized this was a very effective way to provide support, in a way to the truly needed needy." }, { "end_time": "47:58", "start_time": "47:52", "text": "Because only the truly needy you won't have a middle class person coming there and doing their job in the hot sun." }, { "end_time": "47:59", "start_time": "47:58", "text": "And that's that's what happened." }, { "end_time": "48:02", "start_time": "47:59", "text": "It was a support, and so they continued it." }, { "end_time": "48:04", "start_time": "48:02", "text": "So this is an example of continuity." }, { "end_time": "48:15", "start_time": "48:05", "text": "An example of non continuity or changing is, over time, we were trying to integrate better with the world economy." }, { "end_time": "48:21", "start_time": "48:16", "text": "And we thought the way to integrate is to lower the taxes we put on imports." }, { "end_time": "48:23", "start_time": "48:22", "text": "Why is that important?" }, { "end_time": "48:27", "start_time": "48:23", "text": "Because a lot of what we produce and export is based on imports." }, { "end_time": "48:31", "start_time": "48:27", "text": "Today, for example, there's a big debate about electronic components." }, { "end_time": "48:48", "start_time": "48:32", "text": "The person who manufactures the cell phone here as puts it together basically says if you tax me on all the components that are coming in and I have to sell into the domestic market, I become unviable because you're putting tariffs on everything." }, { "end_time": "48:57", "start_time": "48:49", "text": "The component manufacturer in India who wants to start component manufacturing says if you don't put tariffs I'm uncompetitive from the beginning." }, { "end_time": "48:59", "start_time": "48:58", "text": "So who are you gonna benefit?" }, { "end_time": "49:04", "start_time": "48:59", "text": "The person who's making the cell phone or the person who's making the component?" }, { "end_time": "49:10", "start_time": "49:04", "text": "Now typically, what we've seen in other countries is you bring down the tariffs, it's gonna help both." }, { "end_time": "49:18", "start_time": "49:10", "text": "The component manufacturer has to compete, becomes more efficient, and the final producer who puts everything together also has to become more efficient." }, { "end_time": "49:24", "start_time": "49:19", "text": "So, that was the practice ever since liberalization in 1990." }, { "end_time": "49:27", "start_time": "49:24", "text": "We brought down tariffs to about 13% on average." }, { "end_time": "49:32", "start_time": "49:29", "text": "Since then we've taken up tariffs to about 18%." }, { "end_time": "49:40", "start_time": "49:32", "text": "And that's why you have this complaint going on between the component manufacturers and the key tariffs are too high." }, { "end_time": "49:42", "start_time": "49:40", "text": "It's just hard to manufacture in India." }, { "end_time": "49:46", "start_time": "49:43", "text": "That's what the final goods fellow is saying." }, { "end_time": "49:48", "start_time": "49:46", "text": "And the component fellow is saying, unless you put tariffs, I can't compete." }, { "end_time": "49:49", "start_time": "49:48", "text": "I can't produce." }, { "end_time": "49:52", "start_time": "49:50", "text": "So here's an example of way of discontinuity." }, { "end_time": "49:57", "start_time": "49:54", "text": "And and, you know, there there are these things across government." }, { "end_time": "50:00", "start_time": "49:57", "text": "What's the reason for the tariffs being increased?" }, { "end_time": "50:06", "start_time": "50:01", "text": "You know, this is an old view that somehow the only way India will be competitive." }, { "end_time": "50:10", "start_time": "50:06", "text": "It reflects a certain kind of dividends amongst our manufacturers." }, { "end_time": "50:15", "start_time": "50:11", "text": "The only way we can be compared is if is if we put tariffs, right?" }, { "end_time": "50:31", "start_time": "50:16", "text": "And it turns out in the nineties and the 2000, our manufacturers were really very confident and they were happy to see the tariffs come down because they also benefited when they were importing, some some things, from the low tariffs." }, { "end_time": "50:37", "start_time": "50:32", "text": "Somehow we have lost that sense of confidence in industry." }, { "end_time": "50:42", "start_time": "50:37", "text": "And, and, you know, so they're working with government to raise raise tariffs." }, { "end_time": "51:00", "start_time": "50:42", "text": "I don't think in the long run, this is beneficial because, once they put who's paying the tariff, it's all, Aam Aadmi who's paying higher prices for the goods that are imported only, so that, there's some protection for our own manufacturers and our manufacturers are making high costs." }, { "end_time": "51:11", "start_time": "51:00", "text": "We tried this in the 19 eighties, 19 seventies, 19 eighties, and we had a very high cost manufacturing sector, which didn't produce good stuff." }, { "end_time": "51:18", "start_time": "51:11", "text": "So if we go back to the side of the podcast, you spoke about how economic policy always has a practical side to it." }, { "end_time": "51:24", "start_time": "51:18", "text": "When you actually make it a law, then there's ways that human behavior works with this policy." }, { "end_time": "51:30", "start_time": "51:25", "text": "I believe that the only way to make efficient policy would be to actually study recent history." }, { "end_time": "51:36", "start_time": "51:30", "text": "So if your argument about raisinglowering tariffs is look at what happened in the 70s 80s." }, { "end_time": "51:40", "start_time": "51:36", "text": "Isn't that brought up in the rooms where economic policy is drafted?" }, { "end_time": "51:49", "start_time": "51:41", "text": "You know, it's interesting that I told you there's an additional element to it, which is your your science." }, { "end_time": "51:52", "start_time": "51:50", "text": "Do you have the science or do you have the art?" }, { "end_time": "51:53", "start_time": "51:53", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "51:59", "start_time": "51:54", "text": "In the rooms where economic policy is made, sometimes it's all about the art." }, { "end_time": "52:06", "start_time": "51:59", "text": "And the art is I don't understand the deep reasons for this, but, you know, surely it must be the case." }, { "end_time": "52:17", "start_time": "52:06", "text": "If I raise tariffs, if I increase the import duties, I'm creating some space for my own manufacturer that will create local jobs." }, { "end_time": "52:18", "start_time": "52:17", "text": "Isn't that a good thing?" }, { "end_time": "52:19", "start_time": "52:19", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "52:22", "start_time": "52:20", "text": "This kind of argument plays out." }, { "end_time": "52:24", "start_time": "52:22", "text": "It's very simple for everybody to understand." }, { "end_time": "52:29", "start_time": "52:25", "text": "It's good for the politician to say, local jobs." }, { "end_time": "52:30", "start_time": "52:29", "text": "I'm all for local jobs." }, { "end_time": "52:31", "start_time": "52:30", "text": "We need more jobs." }, { "end_time": "52:33", "start_time": "52:31", "text": "Jobs, jobs, jobs, biggest issue in India today." }, { "end_time": "52:43", "start_time": "52:34", "text": "And so they agree with the, and I've seen these arguments in, and as as chief economic adviser, I had to tell them why this was wrong." }, { "end_time": "52:47", "start_time": "52:43", "text": "But these are the arguments that come up into those, those closed rooms." }, { "end_time": "52:51", "start_time": "52:47", "text": "We should protect our industrialists and industrialists are all for it." }, { "end_time": "52:53", "start_time": "52:51", "text": "Now tell me what is wrong with it?" }, { "end_time": "52:55", "start_time": "52:53", "text": "Well, it's the second step." }, { "end_time": "53:08", "start_time": "52:56", "text": "If I actually produce this component at 20% higher price than the world, because I've got protection and I can afford to make a costly component." }, { "end_time": "53:15", "start_time": "53:09", "text": "And that's all my, other producers of the final, say, laptop can can buy." }, { "end_time": "53:21", "start_time": "53:15", "text": "Their laptop becomes 20% more expensive, and so they become uncompetitive with the rest of the world." }, { "end_time": "53:22", "start_time": "53:21", "text": "They can't export." }, { "end_time": "53:24", "start_time": "53:22", "text": "They can only sell into the domestic market." }, { "end_time": "53:27", "start_time": "53:24", "text": "They say, I need now 20% tariffs on laptop imports." }, { "end_time": "53:30", "start_time": "53:28", "text": "So that so the tariff spread." }, { "end_time": "53:32", "start_time": "53:30", "text": "And who pays the price?" }, { "end_time": "53:40", "start_time": "53:32", "text": "It is our consumer who says, now I have to pay 20% higher for laptops only to keep these manufacturers alive." }, { "end_time": "53:47", "start_time": "53:40", "text": "And what is most important is they don't actually grow because they're catering only to the domestic market." }, { "end_time": "53:50", "start_time": "53:47", "text": "They're not catering to the export market because they aren't competitive." }, { "end_time": "53:58", "start_time": "53:51", "text": "So you need to make these other arguments to see why it's not a good idea to keep raising tariffs to protect your people." }, { "end_time": "54:18", "start_time": "53:58", "text": "Another example we quote in the book, which is we raised tariffs on a very important input to polyester cloth, which it was raised because we have a big manufacturer who is very influential, who could push the government to raise the tariff on that input." }, { "end_time": "54:37", "start_time": "54:18", "text": "As a result, we are not able to compete in textiles because the input costs had gone up so much that, you know, we our cost of, of cloth, to the, you know, stitches to the is has gone up." }, { "end_time": "54:39", "start_time": "54:37", "text": "And so they're not uncompetitive with the rest of it." }, { "end_time": "54:41", "start_time": "54:39", "text": "This is a very labor intensive industry." }, { "end_time": "54:49", "start_time": "54:42", "text": "But because we raised tariffs to favor 1 producer, we have actually made this whole industry uncompetitive." }, { "end_time": "54:50", "start_time": "54:49", "text": "And this happens even today?" }, { "end_time": "54:52", "start_time": "54:50", "text": "This happens even today." }, { "end_time": "55:00", "start_time": "54:52", "text": "So effectively what I'm gaining from your answer, one layer deep, is that again human emotions as well as political agenda perhaps comes into play." }, { "end_time": "55:16", "start_time": "55:01", "text": "Well, I think you have to have a certain deep ideology that allowing more competition is going to make us more efficient in the longer run." }, { "end_time": "55:21", "start_time": "55:16", "text": "So if that is the mission statement, it will impact economic policy much better." }, { "end_time": "55:22", "start_time": "55:21", "text": "Exactly." }, { "end_time": "55:26", "start_time": "55:22", "text": "That's what we had since 1990 when we did the liberalization." }, { "end_time": "55:29", "start_time": "55:27", "text": "More competition is good." }, { "end_time": "55:30", "start_time": "55:29", "text": "Let's not reverse that." }, { "end_time": "55:35", "start_time": "55:31", "text": "Now, you know, the lessons from that over time get forgotten." }, { "end_time": "55:40", "start_time": "55:36", "text": "And if they're not repeated, you know, your point, we should learn from experience and keep repeating it." }, { "end_time": "55:57", "start_time": "55:40", "text": "If they're not repeated in the corridors of power, and if we do seat of the pants policy, and if we listen to the beneficiaries of such policies more than we listen to others, Aam Aadmi has no place in that that, room where these policies are made." }, { "end_time": "56:01", "start_time": "55:57", "text": "Then you get policies which don't necessarily benefit people." }, { "end_time": "56:01", "start_time": "56:01", "text": "K." }, { "end_time": "56:04", "start_time": "56:02", "text": "How straightforward can I be with you?" }, { "end_time": "56:04", "start_time": "56:04", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "56:17", "start_time": "56:05", "text": "As the narrative in the public eye is that you left working with the Modi government because your opinions weren't heard." }, { "end_time": "56:19", "start_time": "56:18", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "56:21", "start_time": "56:19", "text": "I actually could do everything I needed to do." }, { "end_time": "56:30", "start_time": "56:22", "text": "One of the interesting issues is I had a very good working relationship both with the prime minister and the finance minister." }, { "end_time": "56:33", "start_time": "56:30", "text": "And, I told you about the bank cleanup." }, { "end_time": "56:39", "start_time": "56:34", "text": "I went to the finance minister and I said, look, we've identified such big levels of NPAs." }, { "end_time": "56:41", "start_time": "56:39", "text": "I'm not accusing you at all." }, { "end_time": "56:42", "start_time": "56:41", "text": "No, no, no." }, { "end_time": "56:47", "start_time": "56:42", "text": "I'm just saying that that was not the issue." }, { "end_time": "56:51", "start_time": "56:48", "text": "That we had a good working relationship." }, { "end_time": "56:55", "start_time": "56:51", "text": "Everything we wanted done, we managed to persuade the government." }, { "end_time": "56:57", "start_time": "56:55", "text": "As I said, there's a job of persuasion." }, { "end_time": "57:02", "start_time": "56:58", "text": "There's jitbit that always goes on, but you have to overlook that." }, { "end_time": "57:09", "start_time": "57:03", "text": "And so long as you have a good relationship with the people in power, you can get things done." }, { "end_time": "57:16", "start_time": "57:09", "text": "Was there a reason you didn't do too many media interactions back then versus you doing media interactions now?" }, { "end_time": "57:20", "start_time": "57:16", "text": "Look, I saw my job then as communicating policy." }, { "end_time": "57:23", "start_time": "57:21", "text": "Why are we doing what we're doing?" }, { "end_time": "57:32", "start_time": "57:23", "text": "So for example, I remember the I was, you know, trying to explain why, you know, lower inflation was a good thing." }, { "end_time": "57:35", "start_time": "57:32", "text": "Somebody was complaining, why are the interest rates?" }, { "end_time": "57:38", "start_time": "57:36", "text": "We had fixed deposit rates." }, { "end_time": "57:42", "start_time": "57:38", "text": "We were earning 9%, and now they've come down to 6%." }, { "end_time": "57:44", "start_time": "57:43", "text": "How can this be a good thing?" }, { "end_time": "57:48", "start_time": "57:44", "text": "And I told them there's 6% because inflation has come down so much." }, { "end_time": "57:52", "start_time": "57:48", "text": "And actually you're making money, more money on your deposits than you were making earlier." }, { "end_time": "57:56", "start_time": "57:53", "text": "And I gave an example which became known as Dosa Economics." }, { "end_time": "58:03", "start_time": "57:56", "text": "How they could afford more Dosa's because interest rates were in real terms." }, { "end_time": "58:08", "start_time": "58:03", "text": "That is when you subtract inflation from the interest rate they were getting, were actually higher." }, { "end_time": "58:16", "start_time": "58:08", "text": "And so there is a job of communicating why the policy mix that you're following makes sense." }, { "end_time": "58:20", "start_time": "58:16", "text": "And I think that that was something I did a lot." }, { "end_time": "58:26", "start_time": "58:21", "text": "You know, sometimes, in a platform like this, you also want to caution." }, { "end_time": "58:32", "start_time": "58:28", "text": "The the, Sometimes there's a sense of triumphalism." }, { "end_time": "58:37", "start_time": "58:35", "text": "There's nothing that's going badly." }, { "end_time": "58:38", "start_time": "58:37", "text": "We need, you know, we're fine." }, { "end_time": "58:45", "start_time": "58:39", "text": "And, and I tried to caution there also, you know, let's, let's be careful." }, { "end_time": "58:51", "start_time": "58:45", "text": "It's when we start feeling nothing can go wrong, that things start going wrong." }, { "end_time": "58:56", "start_time": "58:51", "text": "You know, Andy Grove of Intel once had a phrase, only the paranoid survive." }, { "end_time": "58:58", "start_time": "58:57", "text": "That's so true." }, { "end_time": "58:58", "start_time": "58:58", "text": "Wow." }, { "end_time": "59:05", "start_time": "58:58", "text": "That's certainly true in politics, but I think it's absolutely true from national policy also." }, { "end_time": "59:14", "start_time": "59:05", "text": "As soon as you think there is nothing that can go wrong, you stop adjusting for the possibilities and they start happening." }, { "end_time": "59:24", "start_time": "59:14", "text": "So that was also important to warn about the things that could go wrong and to make sure that we were continuously sort of worried about covering for those." }, { "end_time": "59:26", "start_time": "59:24", "text": "Do you think you were a disliked guy?" }, { "end_time": "59:27", "start_time": "59:27", "text": "I don't think so." }, { "end_time": "59:34", "start_time": "59:27", "text": "I think what I hear every time, of course, these are only people who, you know, this is a selected sample." }, { "end_time": "59:37", "start_time": "59:35", "text": "Say, I entered economics only because of you." }, { "end_time": "59:41", "start_time": "59:38", "text": "So that's that's that's nice nice feeling." }, { "end_time": "59:47", "start_time": "59:41", "text": "I found the press was looking for all the, you know, downside of the balance, never talking about the upside." }, { "end_time": "59:56", "start_time": "59:49", "text": "And and I don't know whether that was by design or whether they were just desperate to find some counter voices." }, { "end_time": "59:59", "start_time": "59:57", "text": "And so they amplified that." }, { "end_time": "1:00:09", "start_time": "59:59", "text": "And I was, you know, sometimes when I give a speech and I read what what was going out on on media on that speech, I said, this is not the speech I gave." }, { "end_time": "1:00:11", "start_time": "1:00:09", "text": "Did anybody actually read the speech?" }, { "end_time": "1:00:13", "start_time": "1:00:12", "text": "Because they picked up those bits." }, { "end_time": "1:00:17", "start_time": "1:00:14", "text": "So I I think there's a little bit of of that that goes on." }, { "end_time": "1:00:36", "start_time": "1:00:19", "text": "You know, whether it is the building up, like a Narad, the dissension sells more papers, or gets more, sort of, eyeballs, or or whether there was an agenda there." }, { "end_time": "1:00:37", "start_time": "1:00:37", "text": "I I don't know." }, { "end_time": "1:00:41", "start_time": "1:00:37", "text": "But, but that that that was the the problem." }, { "end_time": "1:00:45", "start_time": "1:00:41", "text": "Balanced speeches got taken completely out of context." }, { "end_time": "1:00:45", "start_time": "1:00:45", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "1:00:47", "start_time": "1:00:45", "text": "I have a few things to say." }, { "end_time": "1:00:53", "start_time": "1:00:47", "text": "Again, going back to my pre podcast practice of talking to people for the episode." }, { "end_time": "1:00:55", "start_time": "1:00:53", "text": "So of course, I'll talk to a few people who understand economics." }, { "end_time": "1:01:04", "start_time": "1:00:56", "text": "I'll definitely always speak to extreme right and extreme left people to just draw out my guest's image in their head." }, { "end_time": "1:01:08", "start_time": "1:01:05", "text": "As I said earlier, everyone respected you." }, { "end_time": "1:01:12", "start_time": "1:01:08", "text": "The left people said that, Oh, see people like Doctor." }, { "end_time": "1:01:16", "start_time": "1:01:12", "text": "RRR are now ostracized from the government, sent away." }, { "end_time": "1:01:18", "start_time": "1:01:16", "text": "We need more people like Dun Bao." }, { "end_time": "1:01:21", "start_time": "1:01:18", "text": "The people in the extreme right, and I'm giving you both the perspectives." }, { "end_time": "1:01:25", "start_time": "1:01:22", "text": "Extreme right said that, Oh, he clearly doesn't like the Modi government." }, { "end_time": "1:01:31", "start_time": "1:01:25", "text": "And, you know, someone even said that there's a conspiracy theory attached to your name that you're working with the deep state." }, { "end_time": "1:01:35", "start_time": "1:01:32", "text": "And the deep state is supposedly the body that runs America." }, { "end_time": "1:01:37", "start_time": "1:01:35", "text": "As in the front is the present." }, { "end_time": "1:01:39", "start_time": "1:01:37", "text": "All this is conspiracy theory territory." }, { "end_time": "1:01:41", "start_time": "1:01:39", "text": "So they said that you are funded by the deep state." }, { "end_time": "1:01:43", "start_time": "1:01:41", "text": "There are accusations like this." }, { "end_time": "1:01:49", "start_time": "1:01:43", "text": "And that got me thinking that wow media has really cooked up some stories on both sides." }, { "end_time": "1:01:54", "start_time": "1:01:49", "text": "So now I'll pass the ball to you and I'll let you clear all these misconceptions." }, { "end_time": "1:02:05", "start_time": "1:01:54", "text": "Well, look, you know, first, when out of government, I have been critical regardless of the government in power because that's my job." }, { "end_time": "1:02:08", "start_time": "1:02:06", "text": "I mean, we have enough people praising." }, { "end_time": "1:02:12", "start_time": "1:02:08", "text": "And of course, you do offer some this is what is going well." }, { "end_time": "1:02:22", "start_time": "1:02:12", "text": "I was, before I became chief economic adviser in the Manmohan Singh government, I was the I was an adviser to doctor Manmohan Singh." }, { "end_time": "1:02:35", "start_time": "1:02:23", "text": "And I have a speech in, you know, a bunch of speeches talking about some of the concerns with cronyism, etcetera, that were building up in India." }, { "end_time": "1:02:46", "start_time": "1:02:36", "text": "And, you know, I remember a panel where, you know, 4 of the participants, this was celebrating, so many years since the liberalization." }, { "end_time": "1:02:56", "start_time": "1:02:47", "text": "4 of the participants, Isher Aluwalia, me, TN Nainan, of the 4th, the 4th was doctor Subbara, who was the RBI governor." }, { "end_time": "1:02:58", "start_time": "1:02:57", "text": "3 criticized the government deeply." }, { "end_time": "1:03:04", "start_time": "1:02:59", "text": "There was a 5th participant, which was doctor Manmohan Singh, who was the prime minister." }, { "end_time": "1:03:11", "start_time": "1:03:05", "text": "And he listened, and he said, not for me to say anything, I have to absorb this criticism and then act." }, { "end_time": "1:03:12", "start_time": "1:03:11", "text": "And he acted accordingly." }, { "end_time": "1:03:22", "start_time": "1:03:13", "text": "But the point is that anybody who wants just undiluted praise will go off track." }, { "end_time": "1:03:24", "start_time": "1:03:22", "text": "You know, the emperor's new clothes." }, { "end_time": "1:03:24", "start_time": "1:03:24", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "1:03:28", "start_time": "1:03:24", "text": "Nobody wants to point out that the emperor has no clothes in this matter or that matter." }, { "end_time": "1:03:35", "start_time": "1:03:29", "text": "And you make mistakes, huge mistakes which eventually I mean nobody has all the right answers." }, { "end_time": "1:03:47", "start_time": "1:03:35", "text": "If you suppress criticism, you take advice only from a narrow quatary and you only listen to them and you kill all all, sort of adverse information, adverse data." }, { "end_time": "1:03:53", "start_time": "1:03:48", "text": "You get the pop up politics of the Soviet Union and see where that ended up." }, { "end_time": "1:04:00", "start_time": "1:03:54", "text": "So it is important for independent outsiders to offer their concerns." }, { "end_time": "1:04:07", "start_time": "1:04:02", "text": "Of course, you know, they can offer, you know, both sides, but everybody's offering one side." }, { "end_time": "1:04:13", "start_time": "1:04:08", "text": "So when you offer the downside, you look like a die died in the world critic." }, { "end_time": "1:04:18", "start_time": "1:04:13", "text": "I've already told you I love the, fact that we've operationalized direct benefits." }, { "end_time": "1:04:25", "start_time": "1:04:18", "text": "I will tell you I like the fact that we're building out an infrastructure in ways we never did before." }, { "end_time": "1:04:26", "start_time": "1:04:25", "text": "These are all good things." }, { "end_time": "1:04:37", "start_time": "1:04:26", "text": "But there are sites that you will criticize, including the fact that you don't take criticism, which is a problem, which is why you will go off track in many significant ways." }, { "end_time": "1:04:47", "start_time": "1:04:38", "text": "Being a podcaster, people want the other cabinet ministers to speak up, and people would actually enjoy a little bit of self criticism, a little bit of acknowledging their own mistakes." }, { "end_time": "1:05:03", "start_time": "1:04:48", "text": "I think that that is important because the one narrative pushes people like me who want a fair discussion to focus more on the downside because there's so much on only the upside." }, { "end_time": "1:05:05", "start_time": "1:05:03", "text": "Everything's going well." }, { "end_time": "1:05:09", "start_time": "1:05:05", "text": "And I think the the issue of 1 person is is a very important issue." }, { "end_time": "1:05:15", "start_time": "1:05:09", "text": "Actually, there's a very interesting, quote from doctor Ambedkar, the framer of the constitution." }, { "end_time": "1:05:35", "start_time": "1:05:16", "text": "Where he said, bhakti in religion is a very good thing, but we shouldn't transfer bhakti to politics because that kind of devotion to 1 person in politics is detrimental to the longer run sort of stability of the country." }, { "end_time": "1:05:37", "start_time": "1:05:35", "text": "In fact, he said that leads to dictatorship." }, { "end_time": "1:05:42", "start_time": "1:05:38", "text": "And I think that is something that, you know, whether it was Mrs." }, { "end_time": "1:05:49", "start_time": "1:05:42", "text": "Indira Gandhi or, you know, we have to caution against that kind of, sort of focus." }, { "end_time": "1:05:53", "start_time": "1:05:49", "text": "I mean, you know, where is the rest of the cabinet?" }, { "end_time": "1:06:01", "start_time": "1:05:54", "text": "Why don't we have, you know, a sense that, you know, mister Gudhgari is doing a fantastic job on infrastructure." }, { "end_time": "1:06:08", "start_time": "1:06:02", "text": "Why aren't more sort of achievements of cabinet ministers highlighted?" }, { "end_time": "1:06:14", "start_time": "1:06:08", "text": "Why is it always, and, you know, to some extent it's also the power of the prime minister's office." }, { "end_time": "1:06:15", "start_time": "1:06:14", "text": "I've said this many times." }, { "end_time": "1:06:25", "start_time": "1:06:16", "text": "Having an overly powerful prime minister India cannot be governed from a very, very narrow center, especially if that center doesn't try and build consensus." }, { "end_time": "1:06:27", "start_time": "1:06:26", "text": "We saw what happened to the farm laws." }, { "end_time": "1:06:39", "start_time": "1:06:28", "text": "So what we talk about in this book that we put together, which I think is an important point about what we feel about what's going forward." }, { "end_time": "1:06:44", "start_time": "1:06:39", "text": "That we need to rethink governance also at the same time as we are rethinking economics." }, { "end_time": "1:06:46", "start_time": "1:06:45", "text": "Because the 2 go together." }, { "end_time": "1:06:53", "start_time": "1:06:46", "text": "If we want to be successful in the 21st century, we need a governance for the 21st century." }, { "end_time": "1:06:58", "start_time": "1:06:53", "text": "We have a governance for maybe the 20th century, maybe earlier." }, { "end_time": "1:07:02", "start_time": "1:06:59", "text": "This is something I loved about Milindeura who was on the show." }, { "end_time": "1:07:05", "start_time": "1:07:03", "text": "He had some incredible points that he made." }, { "end_time": "1:07:16", "start_time": "1:07:05", "text": "When I asked him what he changed about governance in general, he said I changed the whole system honestly, because the system is built for 1947 and we're still following it." }, { "end_time": "1:07:17", "start_time": "1:07:16", "text": "It has layers." }, { "end_time": "1:07:18", "start_time": "1:07:17", "text": "It doesn't incorporate technology." }, { "end_time": "1:07:20", "start_time": "1:07:19", "text": "Work doesn't move fast." }, { "end_time": "1:07:21", "start_time": "1:07:20", "text": "Policy doesn't move fast." }, { "end_time": "1:07:22", "start_time": "1:07:21", "text": "So he'd probably change the whole system." }, { "end_time": "1:07:25", "start_time": "1:07:23", "text": "Do you agree with that?" }, { "end_time": "1:07:26", "start_time": "1:07:25", "text": "That's my first question to you." }, { "end_time": "1:07:31", "start_time": "1:07:26", "text": "Well, I I would I would not start by saying we need to change the constitution." }, { "end_time": "1:07:38", "start_time": "1:07:33", "text": "My sense is when you open things up too much, then you can get get the wrong sort of change." }, { "end_time": "1:07:44", "start_time": "1:07:39", "text": "We don't want to move from a democracy to a more authoritarian government by changing the constitution." }, { "end_time": "1:07:46", "start_time": "1:07:44", "text": "In fact, what I think is we need far more democracy." }, { "end_time": "1:07:54", "start_time": "1:07:47", "text": "So for example, we talked earlier, how do you get politicians to focus on schools, on healthcare?" }, { "end_time": "1:07:59", "start_time": "1:07:55", "text": "And I think one of the important changes that we talk about in the book is decentralization." }, { "end_time": "1:08:05", "start_time": "1:08:01", "text": "How do you get the politician to focus?" }, { "end_time": "1:08:08", "start_time": "1:08:06", "text": "It has to be the primary responsibility of the politician." }, { "end_time": "1:08:13", "start_time": "1:08:10", "text": "The politician sitting in Lucknow doesn't care about what happens in the village." }, { "end_time": "1:08:17", "start_time": "1:08:14", "text": "The Sarpanch in the village cares about what happens in the village." }, { "end_time": "1:08:24", "start_time": "1:08:17", "text": "Supposing the Sarpanch was in charge of the local school rather than the minister sitting in Lucknow." }, { "end_time": "1:08:37", "start_time": "1:08:26", "text": "Then if the school wasn't, you know, if the teacher wasn't showing up, if the school wasn't repainted, if it was falling apart, if the children didn't get the midday meal, Sarpansh would hear it very quickly." }, { "end_time": "1:08:41", "start_time": "1:08:38", "text": "And the Sarpansh would not get reelected in the next, election." }, { "end_time": "1:08:49", "start_time": "1:08:42", "text": "That is an immediate empowerment of the people, immediate cause and effect, forces the serpent to do what the people need." }, { "end_time": "1:08:54", "start_time": "1:08:49", "text": "And one of the biggest things people will tell you again and again we need is a good school for our children." }, { "end_time": "1:08:57", "start_time": "1:08:55", "text": "So decentralization would make a difference." }, { "end_time": "1:09:03", "start_time": "1:08:57", "text": "Now, to your point, the politics of 1947." }, { "end_time": "1:09:08", "start_time": "1:09:04", "text": "In 1947, what we wanted was to keep the country together." }, { "end_time": "1:09:11", "start_time": "1:09:08", "text": "Too many forces you know, splitting the country." }, { "end_time": "1:09:13", "start_time": "1:09:11", "text": "After all, we had just been through partition." }, { "end_time": "1:09:23", "start_time": "1:09:14", "text": "Getting the princely states to agree to join, Hyderabad was still not part, Pondicherry, Goa, these all had to be integrated." }, { "end_time": "1:09:28", "start_time": "1:09:24", "text": "So in that, what we wanted was a strong central government." }, { "end_time": "1:09:39", "start_time": "1:09:29", "text": "And, you know, we had states, but there was a partition of there was a division of labor between the states and the central government, but there was no need for a third level." }, { "end_time": "1:09:44", "start_time": "1:09:39", "text": "And Ambedkar was very much against the 3rd level because he said the village is a den of inequity." }, { "end_time": "1:09:46", "start_time": "1:09:44", "text": "All the social ills come there." }, { "end_time": "1:09:49", "start_time": "1:09:47", "text": "Of course, time has passed." }, { "end_time": "1:09:57", "start_time": "1:09:50", "text": "And today what happens is that our, you know, state of Uttar Pradesh is the 5th largest country in the world." }, { "end_time": "1:09:58", "start_time": "1:09:57", "text": "It's too big." }, { "end_time": "1:10:01", "start_time": "1:09:58", "text": "India cannot be governed from the PMO in Delhi." }, { "end_time": "1:10:07", "start_time": "1:10:01", "text": "It cannot be governed from the chief minister's, quothree in the state capital." }, { "end_time": "1:10:11", "start_time": "1:10:07", "text": "It has to be much more decentralized for people to get what they need." }, { "end_time": "1:10:15", "start_time": "1:10:12", "text": "And that is why I think we need that kind of governance reform." }, { "end_time": "1:10:17", "start_time": "1:10:15", "text": "That's not about changing the constitution." }, { "end_time": "1:10:21", "start_time": "1:10:18", "text": "It's about Grassroot level governance." }, { "end_time": "1:10:21", "start_time": "1:10:21", "text": "Grassroot." }, { "end_time": "1:10:27", "start_time": "1:10:21", "text": "We have a 3rd tier of government, which has been empowered by the amendments to the constitution in the 19 nineties." }, { "end_time": "1:10:31", "start_time": "1:10:28", "text": "What we need is to make it operational because the states aren't giving funding." }, { "end_time": "1:10:38", "start_time": "1:10:32", "text": "They aren't giving people, they aren't giving powers to the municipalities and to the villages." }, { "end_time": "1:10:41", "start_time": "1:10:38", "text": "We need that level of transition to take place." }, { "end_time": "1:10:45", "start_time": "1:10:41", "text": "Otherwise, everybody wants to keep power at their level and not let any go down." }, { "end_time": "1:10:54", "start_time": "1:10:45", "text": "You had highlighted demonetization as one of the mistakes of the current government, probably the biggest economic mistake." }, { "end_time": "1:10:56", "start_time": "1:10:54", "text": "And you broke it down." }, { "end_time": "1:11:04", "start_time": "1:10:56", "text": "I think the consensus of that answer was that the intention behind demonetization was to reduce the usage of black money, etc." }, { "end_time": "1:11:10", "start_time": "1:11:04", "text": "And we didn't really achieve that mission statement." }, { "end_time": "1:11:12", "start_time": "1:11:11", "text": "What about 2024?" }, { "end_time": "1:11:15", "start_time": "1:11:13", "text": "And maybe the last 4 years generally." }, { "end_time": "1:11:27", "start_time": "1:11:16", "text": "You've constantly brought up the book and what I'm sensing is that the book is a way for you to express everything you wanted to say for years and you finally penned it down." }, { "end_time": "1:11:33", "start_time": "1:11:27", "text": "But I also give you this platform, because I don't know how news media asks you questions like this." }, { "end_time": "1:11:36", "start_time": "1:11:33", "text": "But this is going to be watched by millions of people." }, { "end_time": "1:11:45", "start_time": "1:11:37", "text": "And just open up your heart, talk about what actually needs to be highlighted in terms of criticism of the current Indian government." }, { "end_time": "1:11:52", "start_time": "1:11:45", "text": "So I actually want to offer a positive message, which is to beat a model, you have to offer a model." }, { "end_time": "1:11:59", "start_time": "1:11:54", "text": "The establishment has a very clear model of what they're trying to do." }, { "end_time": "1:12:09", "start_time": "1:11:59", "text": "And it's focused you know, certainly on some economics, but also much on, you know, giving people a greater sense of confidence, well-being, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:12:30", "start_time": "1:12:10", "text": "And and what I want to say is, you know, there are other ways of giving people confidence, which doesn't involve pressing down on one community while elevating or, you know, making another community feel strong, treating everybody equally, including everybody in the growth process." }, { "end_time": "1:12:44", "start_time": "1:12:31", "text": "But to do that, we have to focus on those who are being left behind, give them more capabilities, give them more access to schooling, to, health care, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:12:56", "start_time": "1:12:45", "text": "Just even in Delhi, which is full of hospitals, some, poor person navigating the health care system, of course, has improved a lot today because of the Muhala clinic, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:12:59", "start_time": "1:12:56", "text": "But, you know, 5, 10 years back was miserable." }, { "end_time": "1:13:02", "start_time": "1:12:59", "text": "And of course, in many other areas, it's still very, very bad." }, { "end_time": "1:13:05", "start_time": "1:13:03", "text": "So that's, that's one part of it." }, { "end_time": "1:13:07", "start_time": "1:13:05", "text": "But we also have to have ambition." }, { "end_time": "1:13:13", "start_time": "1:13:08", "text": "We have to have ambition to grow really fast to become a, you know, strong country." }, { "end_time": "1:13:21", "start_time": "1:13:13", "text": "So then we can spread our values, but our values have to be those, you know, our historical values of tolerance, of respect." }, { "end_time": "1:13:23", "start_time": "1:13:21", "text": "We can be a different superpower." }, { "end_time": "1:13:28", "start_time": "1:13:23", "text": "We don't have to be a superpower which suppresses others like the current superpowers that we have." }, { "end_time": "1:13:29", "start_time": "1:13:28", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "1:13:30", "start_time": "1:13:29", "text": "So how do we do that?" }, { "end_time": "1:13:39", "start_time": "1:13:30", "text": "How do we go with our values to the world and say, we want to embrace you in brotherhood, but we also want to be a really important country." }, { "end_time": "1:13:43", "start_time": "1:13:39", "text": "And there we're saying, look, we can build on our strengths." }, { "end_time": "1:13:49", "start_time": "1:13:43", "text": "And there is actually a path which is opening up, which didn't used to exist earlier." }, { "end_time": "1:13:58", "start_time": "1:13:49", "text": "A path which is based on, you know, intellectual property creation, on ideas, on creativity, on patents." }, { "end_time": "1:14:09", "start_time": "1:13:59", "text": "These are the things that flourish in a society which is always debating, which is talking to each other, engaging each other, producing new ideas." }, { "end_time": "1:14:14", "start_time": "1:14:10", "text": "Let us win that battle because that's where the battle is being fought today." }, { "end_time": "1:14:21", "start_time": "1:14:14", "text": "You know, when you talk about AI, robotics, etcetera, you're talking about the battle for new ideas." }, { "end_time": "1:14:27", "start_time": "1:14:21", "text": "And India has to win, but not win, but at least be a big part of that that battle." }, { "end_time": "1:14:38", "start_time": "1:14:28", "text": "So we ask, where are the Indian companies with great products like Nvidia, Boeing, you know, Tesla." }, { "end_time": "1:14:40", "start_time": "1:14:38", "text": "We don't have those products." }, { "end_time": "1:14:42", "start_time": "1:14:40", "text": "We need to create those products." }, { "end_time": "1:14:45", "start_time": "1:14:42", "text": "Even this industries where we are successful, pharmaceuticals." }, { "end_time": "1:14:50", "start_time": "1:14:46", "text": "We do generic products, which is imitating products of others." }, { "end_time": "1:14:51", "start_time": "1:14:50", "text": "We ask in the book, I talked to Doctor." }, { "end_time": "1:14:59", "start_time": "1:14:51", "text": "Youssef Hamid, great entrepreneur, built Cipla up, I asked him, why aren't you producing new drugs?" }, { "end_time": "1:15:10", "start_time": "1:15:00", "text": "The problem is that in the west, big universities create the intellectual property, they innovate the drug, and then they give it to the pharmaceutical firm which commercializes it." }, { "end_time": "1:15:12", "start_time": "1:15:10", "text": "In India, I don't see that." }, { "end_time": "1:15:16", "start_time": "1:15:13", "text": "If I am to invest in original r and d, it's too expensive for me." }, { "end_time": "1:15:18", "start_time": "1:15:16", "text": "Where am I going to do that?" }, { "end_time": "1:15:22", "start_time": "1:15:19", "text": "We need to make it possible for the Ciplas to create new drugs." }, { "end_time": "1:15:26", "start_time": "1:15:22", "text": "And for that, we have to, create very strong universities." }, { "end_time": "1:15:28", "start_time": "1:15:26", "text": "We don't have one university in the top hundred." }, { "end_time": "1:15:32", "start_time": "1:15:29", "text": "If we are to become a strong power, we need many more." }, { "end_time": "1:15:39", "start_time": "1:15:32", "text": "So we need to build at the very top, the elite, the strong universities, the strong firms." }, { "end_time": "1:15:43", "start_time": "1:15:39", "text": "We need to get the Nvidia's, the Apple's, to be Indian companies." }, { "end_time": "1:15:47", "start_time": "1:15:44", "text": "And we need to elevate at the bottom because you can't have a bifurcation." }, { "end_time": "1:15:53", "start_time": "1:15:48", "text": "For too long we've had a bifurcation, the top moving away from the bottom, bottom being left behind." }, { "end_time": "1:15:56", "start_time": "1:15:53", "text": "We need people who are poor to also be elevated." }, { "end_time": "1:15:58", "start_time": "1:15:56", "text": "And that means focus on the fundamentals." }, { "end_time": "1:16:03", "start_time": "1:15:59", "text": "The ultimate problem with policy always is it's too short term." }, { "end_time": "1:16:05", "start_time": "1:16:04", "text": "Some element has to be short term." }, { "end_time": "1:16:08", "start_time": "1:16:05", "text": "Today, the biggest short term issue is jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:16:11", "start_time": "1:16:08", "text": "We need a short term plan to create many more jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:16:16", "start_time": "1:16:11", "text": "If you talk about failings, this has been the most important failing over the last 15 years." }, { "end_time": "1:16:17", "start_time": "1:16:17", "text": "Not enough jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:16:18", "start_time": "1:16:17", "text": "Not enough jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:16:19", "start_time": "1:16:18", "text": "And you can see this." }, { "end_time": "1:16:25", "start_time": "1:16:19", "text": "The number of applicants for IS jobs tripled because there are no other jobs available." }, { "end_time": "1:16:33", "start_time": "1:16:26", "text": "Even though there are only, you know, maybe a 1000 civil service positions, we've got 11 lakhs applying for those 1,000 positions." }, { "end_time": "1:16:37", "start_time": "1:16:34", "text": "Railway jobs, 19,000,000 applying for 60,000 jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:16:41", "start_time": "1:16:38", "text": "You see civil engineers working as waiters." }, { "end_time": "1:16:43", "start_time": "1:16:42", "text": "Why is there this?" }, { "end_time": "1:16:48", "start_time": "1:16:43", "text": "Because there are not enough jobs, but also people aren't well trained for the job." }, { "end_time": "1:16:51", "start_time": "1:16:48", "text": "A lot of manufacturers say, you know, I can't find workers." }, { "end_time": "1:16:55", "start_time": "1:16:52", "text": "1,400,000,000 people and you can't find workers?" }, { "end_time": "1:16:55", "start_time": "1:16:55", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "1:16:57", "start_time": "1:16:55", "text": "Because nobody's well trained." }, { "end_time": "1:17:00", "start_time": "1:16:57", "text": "So we need to upscale people much more." }, { "end_time": "1:17:02", "start_time": "1:17:00", "text": "That has to be an immediate focus." }, { "end_time": "1:17:05", "start_time": "1:17:02", "text": "In other words, what we're saying is there's a path forward." }, { "end_time": "1:17:07", "start_time": "1:17:05", "text": "It requires a lot of work." }, { "end_time": "1:17:11", "start_time": "1:17:08", "text": "It ultimately implies we focus on the brains of Indians." }, { "end_time": "1:17:25", "start_time": "1:17:12", "text": "It's the brains that will make us truly I have seen and we give an example in the book of people going from poverty to wealthy in 1 generation simply because of education." }, { "end_time": "1:17:37", "start_time": "1:17:25", "text": "So for example, this fellow Mustafa in the book, father's a laborer, picking up ginger root, and Mustafa goes to school, fails in 6th grade." }, { "end_time": "1:17:39", "start_time": "1:17:37", "text": "This is the typical problem for many of our kids." }, { "end_time": "1:17:42", "start_time": "1:17:39", "text": "They enter school, they aren't able to keep up, they fail out." }, { "end_time": "1:17:44", "start_time": "1:17:42", "text": "Drop out rates are too high." }, { "end_time": "1:17:49", "start_time": "1:17:45", "text": "He fails, his teacher comes, pulls him back from the farm and says, don't don't stay on the farm." }, { "end_time": "1:17:50", "start_time": "1:17:49", "text": "Come back to school." }, { "end_time": "1:17:51", "start_time": "1:17:50", "text": "He goes back to school." }, { "end_time": "1:17:53", "start_time": "1:17:51", "text": "All his friends laugh at him." }, { "end_time": "1:17:56", "start_time": "1:17:55", "text": "Who are you?" }, { "end_time": "1:17:57", "start_time": "1:17:56", "text": "I mean, you failed." }, { "end_time": "1:18:02", "start_time": "1:17:58", "text": "And his teacher says, be be be calm." }, { "end_time": "1:18:04", "start_time": "1:18:02", "text": "Focus on one thing you can do well." }, { "end_time": "1:18:13", "start_time": "1:18:04", "text": "He studies, studies, does well in math, tops the class, suddenly gets the admiration of the students, then tops school, goes to NIT." }, { "end_time": "1:18:16", "start_time": "1:18:14", "text": "You know, that's the beauty of the system." }, { "end_time": "1:18:31", "start_time": "1:18:16", "text": "You can actually, there are public institutions which are cheap you can go to, becomes an engineer, comes back to IIM Bangalore, wants to start a enterprise, starts us starts 1, making Italy better, Italy Mau." }, { "end_time": "1:18:36", "start_time": "1:18:31", "text": "And, sells it widely, and now runs a firm with 2,500 people." }, { "end_time": "1:18:39", "start_time": "1:18:36", "text": "He tries to employ people like him." }, { "end_time": "1:18:41", "start_time": "1:18:39", "text": "He says, I need to give others a chance." }, { "end_time": "1:18:44", "start_time": "1:18:41", "text": "That's the entrepreneurship which can happen in 1 generation." }, { "end_time": "1:18:50", "start_time": "1:18:45", "text": "Laborer's son becomes a wealthy man, but is giving back." }, { "end_time": "1:18:53", "start_time": "1:18:50", "text": "And we can get so many entrepreneurs." }, { "end_time": "1:18:57", "start_time": "1:18:53", "text": "We can push so many people out of poverty if we focus on the right things." }, { "end_time": "1:19:03", "start_time": "1:18:58", "text": "And what we are saying is there is a lack of focus which we need to remedy today." }, { "end_time": "1:19:09", "start_time": "1:19:03", "text": "Today, we are more interested in getting some chip manufacturer to come and pay $10,000,000,000 to get them in." }, { "end_time": "1:19:12", "start_time": "1:19:09", "text": "Today we're paying $2,000,000,000 to get Micron into Gujarat." }, { "end_time": "1:19:14", "start_time": "1:19:12", "text": "For what, 5,000 jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:19:15", "start_time": "1:19:14", "text": "That's a mismatch." }, { "end_time": "1:19:18", "start_time": "1:19:15", "text": "You told me earlier, what is economics about?" }, { "end_time": "1:19:21", "start_time": "1:19:18", "text": "Trying to find the right use of resources." }, { "end_time": "1:19:26", "start_time": "1:19:22", "text": "$2,000,000,000 to get somebody to assemble chips in India is a waste of resources." }, { "end_time": "1:19:35", "start_time": "1:19:28", "text": "$2,000,000,000 spent in improving the quality of colleges, so that the students coming out from those colleges get a good job." }, { "end_time": "1:19:47", "start_time": "1:19:36", "text": "Getting many more good teachers into the colleges, getting much more sort of apprenticeships so that these kids actually do something that is useful for industry." }, { "end_time": "1:19:50", "start_time": "1:19:48", "text": "All that would be a much better spending." }, { "end_time": "1:19:54", "start_time": "1:19:51", "text": "And that would enable us to get many more jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:19:58", "start_time": "1:19:55", "text": "So all in all, more focus should be given on jobs." }, { "end_time": "1:20:10", "start_time": "1:19:58", "text": "I'd also argue that in order to create more jobs, I think what you're trying to say is more focus needs to be given to entrepreneurial thinking, which again, the extreme right as well as the current government would say that they are already doing." }, { "end_time": "1:20:17", "start_time": "1:20:11", "text": "I'm sure if I relay all these points to anyone in the current government or associated with the current government, they would say." }, { "end_time": "1:20:18", "start_time": "1:20:18", "text": "Yeah." }, { "end_time": "1:20:19", "start_time": "1:20:18", "text": "What they're not doing." }, { "end_time": "1:20:21", "start_time": "1:20:20", "text": "So so two things." }, { "end_time": "1:20:25", "start_time": "1:20:22", "text": "What they're not doing is focusing on the other part of the fundamental." }, { "end_time": "1:20:37", "start_time": "1:20:26", "text": "Creating a worker that is much more employable or creating the entrepreneur from the grass root, which means much more focus on education, much more focus on healthcare." }, { "end_time": "1:20:40", "start_time": "1:20:37", "text": "Let me give you an example of where that attention hasn't been paid." }, { "end_time": "1:20:43", "start_time": "1:20:41", "text": "What happened during the pandemic?" }, { "end_time": "1:20:45", "start_time": "1:20:43", "text": "A lot of children were out of school." }, { "end_time": "1:20:49", "start_time": "1:20:46", "text": "A lot of these children basically have lost learning." }, { "end_time": "1:20:55", "start_time": "1:20:50", "text": "If, there's a report called the ASSA report, which measures how much children learn." }, { "end_time": "1:21:02", "start_time": "1:20:56", "text": "By that report, we are back to 2012 levels in terms of learning in the schools." }, { "end_time": "1:21:03", "start_time": "1:21:02", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "1:21:06", "start_time": "1:21:03", "text": "In some, according to some metrics." }, { "end_time": "1:21:13", "start_time": "1:21:06", "text": "That is a worrisome feature because if you're gonna compete in the 21st century, you better have educated workers." }, { "end_time": "1:21:18", "start_time": "1:21:14", "text": "Not only did we not have adequate for them, it's gone worse in this pandemic cohort." }, { "end_time": "1:21:26", "start_time": "1:21:19", "text": "What that requires is a massive, massive effort to uplift the kids already in school." }, { "end_time": "1:21:27", "start_time": "1:21:26", "text": "That requires spending." }, { "end_time": "1:21:29", "start_time": "1:21:27", "text": "Some states are doing it." }, { "end_time": "1:21:33", "start_time": "1:21:29", "text": "A lot of states are not, in especially the poorest states." }, { "end_time": "1:21:37", "start_time": "1:21:33", "text": "That requires a whole of country effort, which only the central government can give." }, { "end_time": "1:21:43", "start_time": "1:21:38", "text": "And so that's where you say you don't keep saying everything is fine." }, { "end_time": "1:21:47", "start_time": "1:21:43", "text": "You look at the problem, identify the problem and act upon it." }, { "end_time": "1:21:54", "start_time": "1:21:47", "text": "The government has produced a good report to national education policy, but implementation has lagged." }, { "end_time": "1:21:56", "start_time": "1:21:54", "text": "The government implements a lot of things." }, { "end_time": "1:22:00", "start_time": "1:21:56", "text": "We need to implement the national education policy sooner rather than later." }, { "end_time": "1:22:02", "start_time": "1:22:00", "text": "What's happening with the national education policy?" }, { "end_time": "1:22:05", "start_time": "1:22:04", "text": "Because of lack of execution." }, { "end_time": "1:22:08", "start_time": "1:22:06", "text": "It has not been implemented." }, { "end_time": "1:22:08", "start_time": "1:22:08", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "1:22:09", "start_time": "1:22:08", "text": "Yes." }, { "end_time": "1:22:10", "start_time": "1:22:09", "text": "Who implements it?" }, { "end_time": "1:22:14", "start_time": "1:22:10", "text": "Well, I presume some combination of the center and the states have to get together." }, { "end_time": "1:22:23", "start_time": "1:22:14", "text": "Some of it is about things that are entirely within the center's control, which is there are many colleges which are too small, which can't afford adequate teachers." }, { "end_time": "1:22:27", "start_time": "1:22:23", "text": "So the policy prescribes merging some of those colleges." }, { "end_time": "1:22:30", "start_time": "1:22:27", "text": "Now that sort of comes up against a lot of vested interests." }, { "end_time": "1:22:36", "start_time": "1:22:31", "text": "There are lots of politicians who run colleges who don't want those colleges merged with others." }, { "end_time": "1:22:38", "start_time": "1:22:36", "text": "They're making fees from those." }, { "end_time": "1:22:40", "start_time": "1:22:38", "text": "So you need to you need to break all that." }, { "end_time": "1:22:44", "start_time": "1:22:40", "text": "And clearly we have a government which has a political power to do that." }, { "end_time": "1:22:45", "start_time": "1:22:44", "text": "We should be doing much more." }, { "end_time": "1:22:49", "start_time": "1:22:45", "text": "My understanding was that the bureaucracy actually executes all these things." }, { "end_time": "1:22:52", "start_time": "1:22:49", "text": "Like IAS officers, IPS officers, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:22:55", "start_time": "1:22:52", "text": "Like, they make things happen on the ground." }, { "end_time": "1:22:58", "start_time": "1:22:55", "text": "They do, but they get directions from the political establishment." }, { "end_time": "1:23:04", "start_time": "1:22:58", "text": "And the political establishment, again and again, when it works, basically says, what happened to this?" }, { "end_time": "1:23:06", "start_time": "1:23:05", "text": "Not yet." }, { "end_time": "1:23:06", "start_time": "1:23:06", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "1:23:07", "start_time": "1:23:06", "text": "Better do it." }, { "end_time": "1:23:08", "start_time": "1:23:07", "text": "Otherwise, you're out." }, { "end_time": "1:23:10", "start_time": "1:23:08", "text": "You I'll transfer you." }, { "end_time": "1:23:14", "start_time": "1:23:10", "text": "So at the end of the day, the party and power will decide where the country goes." }, { "end_time": "1:23:21", "start_time": "1:23:15", "text": "And I think the overarching criticism here is that we've not generated as many jobs as we could have generated in the last 10 years." }, { "end_time": "1:23:24", "start_time": "1:23:22", "text": "I think it's a longer standing issue." }, { "end_time": "1:23:27", "start_time": "1:23:24", "text": "I won't say this just the last 10 years, but there was a promise." }, { "end_time": "1:23:31", "start_time": "1:23:28", "text": "We will generate 2 crore jobs per month." }, { "end_time": "1:23:33", "start_time": "1:23:32", "text": "There's a guarantee." }, { "end_time": "1:23:35", "start_time": "1:23:33", "text": "That guarantee has not been fulfilled." }, { "end_time": "1:23:37", "start_time": "1:23:36", "text": "In fact, we've gone the other way." }, { "end_time": "1:23:49", "start_time": "1:23:37", "text": "So one of the most frightening numbers, I'll tell you, I'll use the word frightening, which again we mentioned in the book is that the employment in agriculture as a share of total employment has been going up." }, { "end_time": "1:24:03", "start_time": "1:23:50", "text": "No developing country, which is growing at 6, 7% a year should see employment in the old sector going up because productivity in agriculture is very low." }, { "end_time": "1:24:04", "start_time": "1:24:03", "text": "There's not enough land." }, { "end_time": "1:24:06", "start_time": "1:24:04", "text": "There's no why are more people going to agriculture?" }, { "end_time": "1:24:10", "start_time": "1:24:06", "text": "Because they cannot find jobs in services or industry." }, { "end_time": "1:24:14", "start_time": "1:24:10", "text": "In fact, if you look, employment in services has been coming down." }, { "end_time": "1:24:17", "start_time": "1:24:14", "text": "Employment in manufacturing has been coming down." }, { "end_time": "1:24:22", "start_time": "1:24:17", "text": "The only place where employment share has been going up is agriculture and construction." }, { "end_time": "1:24:25", "start_time": "1:24:22", "text": "Construction, give credit to the government." }, { "end_time": "1:24:26", "start_time": "1:24:25", "text": "It's been doing a lot of construction." }, { "end_time": "1:24:27", "start_time": "1:24:26", "text": "That has been helpful." }, { "end_time": "1:24:33", "start_time": "1:24:27", "text": "But the other two areas, which is where a modern economy needs more people, employment has been coming down." }, { "end_time": "1:24:34", "start_time": "1:24:33", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "1:24:37", "start_time": "1:24:35", "text": "Can we approach this from a slightly solution oriented?" }, { "end_time": "1:24:38", "start_time": "1:24:38", "text": "Absolutely." }, { "end_time": "1:24:39", "start_time": "1:24:38", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "1:24:45", "start_time": "1:24:39", "text": "Because again, I remember in one of your past conversations, you spoke about creative disruption." }, { "end_time": "1:24:48", "start_time": "1:24:45", "text": "You basically said that creativity is a strength that Indians have." }, { "end_time": "1:24:50", "start_time": "1:24:48", "text": "We need to play to our own strength." }, { "end_time": "1:24:51", "start_time": "1:24:50", "text": "Like, what is Isro in the first place?" }, { "end_time": "1:24:53", "start_time": "1:24:51", "text": "It's jugaad at play." }, { "end_time": "1:24:54", "start_time": "1:24:53", "text": "And Jugard comes out of creativity." }, { "end_time": "1:24:59", "start_time": "1:24:54", "text": "So I'm going to apply those same rules to this conversation." }, { "end_time": "1:25:12", "start_time": "1:24:59", "text": "Now I've often seen in my own entrepreneurial journey that I've pitched an idea and it sounds like something far fetched, but maybe entrepreneurs are optimistic inherently." }, { "end_time": "1:25:14", "start_time": "1:25:12", "text": "Which is why it always sounds nice to me." }, { "end_time": "1:25:15", "start_time": "1:25:14", "text": "This is one of those moments." }, { "end_time": "1:25:22", "start_time": "1:25:15", "text": "I personally feel that content and content creation as a long term career is kind of like a chef's job." }, { "end_time": "1:25:24", "start_time": "1:25:22", "text": "You're serving food all the time." }, { "end_time": "1:25:27", "start_time": "1:25:24", "text": "And then eventually people will also forget what you've served 2 years ago." }, { "end_time": "1:25:37", "start_time": "1:25:28", "text": "But the actual usage of content creation as a skill that can help the country is if we're able to spread education digitally." }, { "end_time": "1:25:46", "start_time": "1:25:38", "text": "Because I remember speaking with Sanjeev Sanyal, I think about this, where he said that entrepreneurs also have a very, very big role to play in the nation's story." }, { "end_time": "1:25:49", "start_time": "1:25:46", "text": "Everything is not down to the government and policy makers." }, { "end_time": "1:25:53", "start_time": "1:25:49", "text": "You need a lot of entrepreneurs in the country to actually make the change." }, { "end_time": "1:25:57", "start_time": "1:25:54", "text": "I personally see this as a pretty solvable problem." }, { "end_time": "1:25:58", "start_time": "1:25:57", "text": "It might be a far fetched thought." }, { "end_time": "1:26:07", "start_time": "1:25:58", "text": "And I say that because if YouTube and big boss has reached corners of the country, why can't skill based education also reach there?" }, { "end_time": "1:26:15", "start_time": "1:26:08", "text": "Of course, you can't make the practical side of it reach there, but you can make a lot of depths of theory reach those parts of country." }, { "end_time": "1:26:18", "start_time": "1:26:15", "text": "You can even make mindset reach parts of the country, etcetera, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:26:21", "start_time": "1:26:19", "text": "Is that a practical solution or am I being over optimistic?" }, { "end_time": "1:26:22", "start_time": "1:26:21", "text": "No." }, { "end_time": "1:26:32", "start_time": "1:26:22", "text": "There is an organizational process, but you're absolutely right that digital and technology offers us lots of scope for solutions, right, to make much better schools." }, { "end_time": "1:26:42", "start_time": "1:26:32", "text": "So one example, we met this entrepreneur who's basically started, what, a school system called ORCIDs." }, { "end_time": "1:26:47", "start_time": "1:26:43", "text": "Many people have been to good public schools, Columbus, DPS, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:26:50", "start_time": "1:26:48", "text": "How do you recreate those schools in a big way?" }, { "end_time": "1:26:51", "start_time": "1:26:50", "text": "Right?" }, { "end_time": "1:26:58", "start_time": "1:26:51", "text": "Very hard because they have teachers who've, you know, grown in the system, and they've built a reputation over time." }, { "end_time": "1:27:08", "start_time": "1:26:59", "text": "What he does is he got 37,000 plus lesson plans put together for each lesson that a teacher will give." }, { "end_time": "1:27:13", "start_time": "1:27:08", "text": "You know, like you're doing your podcast, fantastically with videos and this and that." }, { "end_time": "1:27:17", "start_time": "1:27:13", "text": "He knows that the maximum people will listen to a video, the short form video is 3 minutes." }, { "end_time": "1:27:20", "start_time": "1:27:18", "text": "So in his lesson plan, there's a 3 minute video." }, { "end_time": "1:27:26", "start_time": "1:27:21", "text": "Then there is, you know, the teacher sort of raises some question, there's a debate." }, { "end_time": "1:27:30", "start_time": "1:27:26", "text": "Every lesson plan is written out for every subject." }, { "end_time": "1:27:36", "start_time": "1:27:31", "text": "And then teachers are recruited to deliver this, and there's instant feedback." }, { "end_time": "1:27:43", "start_time": "1:27:36", "text": "End of the lesson, students type in, did we there's a lot of technology used, but it's a mix of human and technology." }, { "end_time": "1:27:45", "start_time": "1:27:43", "text": "Without the teachers, students won't learn." }, { "end_time": "1:27:50", "start_time": "1:27:46", "text": "With the teacher, there's a scripted process by which the learning takes place." }, { "end_time": "1:27:57", "start_time": "1:27:50", "text": "And you get maybe not quite Columbus, I don't know, But you get pretty close to top level public schools." }, { "end_time": "1:27:58", "start_time": "1:27:57", "text": "But this is totally scalable." }, { "end_time": "1:28:04", "start_time": "1:27:59", "text": "He is at this point, I think he has 63,000 students in schools." }, { "end_time": "1:28:06", "start_time": "1:28:04", "text": "I may get the number a little wrong." }, { "end_time": "1:28:09", "start_time": "1:28:07", "text": "63,000 is like, 63 Saint Columbus." }, { "end_time": "1:28:16", "start_time": "1:28:10", "text": "And he has another 350,000 schools who have bought his, his process." }, { "end_time": "1:28:31", "start_time": "1:28:18", "text": "It turns out when you do studies, and I'm not talking about his particular system, but in other countries, when you do studies on this kind of scripted system, it works very well in improving, people's education students' education level." }, { "end_time": "1:28:31", "start_time": "1:28:31", "text": "Why?" }, { "end_time": "1:28:37", "start_time": "1:28:31", "text": "Because the teacher has to follow and has to complete the thing, but it's properly timed." }, { "end_time": "1:28:39", "start_time": "1:28:37", "text": "It doesn't teacher doesn't have to run through it." }, { "end_time": "1:28:45", "start_time": "1:28:40", "text": "And the student constantly is tested to see how much they learned, help if they fall behind." }, { "end_time": "1:28:51", "start_time": "1:28:45", "text": "One of the biggest problems we have in class is students falling behind, not understanding what is taught in class." }, { "end_time": "1:28:56", "start_time": "1:28:52", "text": "So this is where one way of preventing them from falling behind." }, { "end_time": "1:29:00", "start_time": "1:28:56", "text": "They get remedial tuition during the week if they fall behind." }, { "end_time": "1:29:06", "start_time": "1:29:00", "text": "There's another way If you're looking forward, think about artificial intelligence bots." }, { "end_time": "1:29:09", "start_time": "1:29:06", "text": "So there's a teacher in a school who's teaching 50 students." }, { "end_time": "1:29:16", "start_time": "1:29:10", "text": "Now teacher will teach, maybe 10 stones in the middle will be very interested." }, { "end_time": "1:29:17", "start_time": "1:29:16", "text": "They'll get it." }, { "end_time": "1:29:25", "start_time": "1:29:18", "text": "Teacher was teaching at too low a level for the smartest stones, so maybe 10 stones will get bored and they will not pay too much attention." }, { "end_time": "1:29:27", "start_time": "1:29:25", "text": "But they're good enough, they'll get it." }, { "end_time": "1:29:32", "start_time": "1:29:27", "text": "The bottom 40, 30 or 40 students, basically, are falling behind." }, { "end_time": "1:29:33", "start_time": "1:29:32", "text": "They don't understand." }, { "end_time": "1:29:36", "start_time": "1:29:33", "text": "And once they don't understand, they don't understand even more." }, { "end_time": "1:29:40", "start_time": "1:29:37", "text": "And it's all Greek to them or Tamil to them or whatever." }, { "end_time": "1:29:44", "start_time": "1:29:40", "text": "They don't they don't understand what is being taught in class, and they drop out." }, { "end_time": "1:29:45", "start_time": "1:29:44", "text": "How do you keep them on board?" }, { "end_time": "1:29:47", "start_time": "1:29:45", "text": "Well, we need tutors." }, { "end_time": "1:29:51", "start_time": "1:29:48", "text": "30% of kids in school today are being tutored." }, { "end_time": "1:29:59", "start_time": "1:29:51", "text": "But what if we had tutors for every kid even in a poor government school because we could have cheap artificial intelligence bots." }, { "end_time": "1:30:03", "start_time": "1:29:59", "text": "You type in the question, and, you know, kids learn how to type very quickly, etcetera." }, { "end_time": "1:30:05", "start_time": "1:30:03", "text": "You type in the question, you get the answer." }, { "end_time": "1:30:08", "start_time": "1:30:05", "text": "Acha, I didn't understand what the Pythagoras theorem was." }, { "end_time": "1:30:10", "start_time": "1:30:09", "text": "Please explain it." }, { "end_time": "1:30:17", "start_time": "1:30:10", "text": "You get a detailed explanation much like Khan Academy or somebody would would give, and you learn." }, { "end_time": "1:30:22", "start_time": "1:30:17", "text": "So technology allows us the possibility of improving the quality of teaching tremendously." }, { "end_time": "1:30:28", "start_time": "1:30:23", "text": "And the hope is if we can spread this around the country, we have a solution." }, { "end_time": "1:30:38", "start_time": "1:30:28", "text": "Through a mix of entrepreneurship, good old style teachers, but aided by the scripts, by the, kind of, bots." }, { "end_time": "1:30:41", "start_time": "1:30:38", "text": "I mean, this is not far fetched." }, { "end_time": "1:30:45", "start_time": "1:30:41", "text": "I talk to people at Pratham, which works with the poorest kids." }, { "end_time": "1:30:47", "start_time": "1:30:45", "text": "They tell me technology has been very useful." }, { "end_time": "1:30:48", "start_time": "1:30:48", "text": "Okay." }, { "end_time": "1:30:56", "start_time": "1:30:48", "text": "So there's a lot I wish to ask you related to everything that you've just said, but we've spoken for almost an hour and a half right now." }, { "end_time": "1:31:01", "start_time": "1:30:56", "text": "So, I do believe these are the kind of conversations that need to be consumed in-depth." }, { "end_time": "1:31:06", "start_time": "1:31:02", "text": "And often when we upload 3 hour long, 4 hour long conversations, they don't get entirely consumed." }, { "end_time": "1:31:10", "start_time": "1:31:07", "text": "And only because of that, I'm going to stop you at this point." }, { "end_time": "1:31:14", "start_time": "1:31:10", "text": "And the rest of this conversation we'll cover in the next part where we'll talk about manufacturing." }, { "end_time": "1:31:17", "start_time": "1:31:14", "text": "We'll talk a little bit more in detail about politics." }, { "end_time": "1:31:21", "start_time": "1:31:17", "text": "But thank you for this 101, and I hope you enjoyed it." }, { "end_time": "1:31:22", "start_time": "1:31:21", "text": "Thank you very much." }, { "end_time": "1:31:23", "start_time": "1:31:22", "text": "Thank you." }, { "end_time": "1:31:25", "start_time": "1:31:23", "text": "Alright, ladies and gentlemen." }, { "end_time": "1:31:29", "start_time": "1:31:25", "text": "That was only part 1 of this special conversation." }, { "end_time": "1:31:32", "start_time": "1:31:29", "text": "Part 2 will release next week." }, { "end_time": "1:31:34", "start_time": "1:31:32", "text": "I hope you enjoyed it." }, { "end_time": "1:31:37", "start_time": "1:31:34", "text": "I hope you learned from it in the same way that I did." }, { "end_time": "1:31:44", "start_time": "1:31:38", "text": "Economics is a subject that I'm trying to learn actively through the show and through my own reading journey." }, { "end_time": "1:31:47", "start_time": "1:31:44", "text": "So I'd love for you guys to give me feedback on part 1." }, { "end_time": "1:31:49", "start_time": "1:31:47", "text": "Part 2 is even more power packed." }, { "end_time": "1:31:58", "start_time": "1:31:51", "text": "Perhaps more controversial in some ways, but the bottom line here is that we need more conversations like this." }, { "end_time": "1:32:01", "start_time": "1:31:58", "text": "And you'll see why I'm saying that in part 2." }, { "end_time": "1:32:03", "start_time": "1:32:01", "text": "So make sure you check out part 2 as well." }, { "end_time": "1:32:08", "start_time": "1:32:03", "text": "This was doctor Raghuram Rajan with part 1 of our epic conversation on TRS." } ]

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"00:00","title":"Start of the Podcast"},{"start_time":"6:02","title":"Who(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:03","start_time":"0:00","text":"Guests like yourself visit my life when I really, re(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the podcast"},{"start_time":"3:45","title":"Dr. (...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:02","start_time":"0:00","text":"Doctor Somnath, welcome to the Ravi show."},{"end_ti(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the episode"},{"start_time":"2:40","title":"Sarj(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:04","start_time":"0:00","text":"If there's ever anything I wish to learn about histo(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Introduction"},{"start_time":"1:05","title":"The Billiona(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:06","start_time":"0:00","text":"Story of Nikhil Kamath begins at age 14 when he drop(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"00:00","title":"Introduction"},{"start_time":"02:12","title":"On being r(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:02","start_time":"0:00","text":"Why should you listen to a podcast in the first plac(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the podcast"},{"start_time":"3:00","title":"Akaa(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:01","start_time":"0:00","text":"Flagrant meets TRS."},{"end_time":"0:02","start_time(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the podcast"},{"start_time":"3:11","title":"Abhi(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:01","start_time":"0:00","text":"It's AC who's back on TRS."},{"end_time":"0:05","sta(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the podcast"},{"start_time":"2:38","title":"Pete(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:01","start_time":"0:00","text":"Being a lone, Himalayan explorer."},{"end_time":"0:0(...TRUNCATED)

{"chapters":[{"start_time":"0:00","title":"Start of the podcast"},{"start_time":"3:22","title":"Fabi(...TRUNCATED)

[{"end_time":"0:04","start_time":"0:00","text":"You're a multi billionaire European founder who's mo(...TRUNCATED)