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need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you, however, um there are some changes that I've got from on highUser Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television.User Interface: Okay.Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window. And {vocalsound} they require that the uhUser Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four, um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it. So um, presentations, were you {disfmarker} anybody got, raring to goMarketing: Yeah. Yeah.Project Manager: Raring to go Okay. Good stuff. Mm.Marketing: Um. So how {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: S {gap}Project Manager: Just about.User Interface: Wow. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design.Marketing: {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold itProject Manager: Uh there we go, just screw'em on in. Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} So, after thatProject Manager: now, it was function F_ eight.Marketing: F_ eight. {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight.Project Manager: That's the wee blue one. Blue one F_ eight.Marketing: Okay.Project Manager: Should do it, good one.Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, me again, Rajan the Marketing Expert. Uh, as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out, sorry, yeah sure.Project Manager: Hold on, sorry. {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead, one at a time.Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, sorry I have to see the other {gap}, sorry.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, uh.Marketing: Yeah, thank you.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh, group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They know or turn the volume off or something,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}User Interface:'Kay.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} somethingProject Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.Industrial Designer: Right.Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}User Interface: If you find if yIndustrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speakerProject Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}User Interface: That comes with our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.Industrial Designer: Right, right.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably

Summarize the discussion about market potentials for the new remote controls.

According to Marketing, seventy-five percent of the users found the remote controls which were available now in the market were ugly. Eighty percent of the users reported having the willingness to pay high for good-looking remote controls. Thirty-four percent of the consumers considered their remote controls were too difficult to operate. What's more, some companies believed that they shall have more functions in their remote controls. However, rather than having more functions and making it complicated, they shall emphasize what actually customers wanted and what they operated. All of these market potentials were required to be taken into consideration in order to enhance profits and sales.

industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They on well.User Interface: Oh yeah, that's a good one that. Yeah so.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay, any lastMarketing: Yeah.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Twelve thirty.Project Manager: worries, queries Okay.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} S s {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Project Manager: I know what you're thinking.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay then, lunchtime, yay.Marketing: That's good.Project Manager: Okay, that felt a bit more like a {disfmarker} something with order and and reason to it than the last one.Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: This is quite fun actually.User Interface: Wow.Industrial Designer: Mm.User Interface: Has anybo oh.Project Manager: I really don't {disfmarker}User Interface: Has anybody pressed okay, it vibrates. It's pretty cool.Project Manager: Yeah, yeah.Industrial Designer: Yep.Marketing: Check here.Project Manager: Wow you've {gap} your first page.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I've been using up the pages.Project Manager: I was just writing really big. {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, got small writing. I don't wanna waste it.Project Manager: I've finished the meeting now.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Another questionnaire.Project Manager: Oh, everybody needs k questionnaire.Marketing: {vocalsound} could y you could have theUser Interface: or some sort of voice {disfmarker}Project Manager: you could have the basically um instead of a whistle if it's got the voice recognition you could have it just, you know, where are you {gap}. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's costly though.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: Yeah.Industrial Designer: Um a much easier thing is just any loud noise like clapping um, shouting, you know,Project Manager: Hmm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Yeah.Industrial Designer: uh and then, what would the response be It beeps back at you or somethingProject Manager: Sounds good.User Interface: Yeah, something.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well, uh let me set this up. So I plug it in, press F_ five Function F_ fiveProject Manager: Function F_ eight for the um the uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Or function F_ eight Okay.User Interface: Oh you need to twiddle the thingamibobsy thing.Industrial Designer: Okay. I think it's {vocalsound} uh just to lock it in. It's got it.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Okay.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} So as the Industrial Designer my job is to take an input from you guys,User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: um so it's good you went first,Project Manager: Alright.Industrial Designer: and I jotted down some notes as to what are the b needs and uh what kind of novel features we can add to differentiate our product from the others.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Let's remember that.Industrial Designer: Um so Raj told us that uh consumers are willing to spend more for fancy products, and um he also mentioned that uh the current products don't always match users'operating behaviour. Um, a lot of the buttons aren't used, and uh {vocalsound} he mentioned that they're not fun to use. And uh a novel feature which uh we just brought up was this this automatic

How did the research on market potentials contribute to the project

On the whole, the results of the market potentials helped the team know the status quo and form some general ideas about the functions required by the market. First of all, the team realized the requirement for beautiful products, thus aiming to design good-looking and appropriate TV remote controls in order to enhance the sales. Second, since about one-third of the consumers reported to have difficulties in using their remotes, the team then agreed to reduce the numbers of buttons. Lastly, they decided to add speech recognition to their products because people from fifteen to thirty (the age group contained most of the consumers) enjoyed this function very much.

group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They know or turn the volume off or something,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}User Interface:'Kay.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} somethingProject Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.Industrial Designer: Right.Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}User Interface: If you find if yIndustrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speakerProject Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}User Interface: That comes with our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.Industrial Designer: Right, right.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.User Interface: Yeah, okay.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,User Interface: Mm.Industrial Designer: Hmm.Project Manager: so I thUser Interface: And the expense.Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.User Interface: Mm.Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably

What were the advantages of reducing the buttons on remotes when discussing the market potentials for the new remotes

Altogether, there were three advantages. The first was the simplicity of use. In the market, lots of remotes had many buttons because companies believed that more buttons they added, the more their consumers would appreciate. However, the fact was that many people didn't know how to use these buttons at all. The redundant buttons only increased the difficulties for people to use. The second was the decrease in cost since fewer buttons were needed. The last was the increase in sales and profits.

group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, know or turn the volume off or something,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}User Interface:'Kay.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} somethingProject Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.Industrial Designer: Right.Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}User Interface: If you find if yIndustrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speakerProject Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}User Interface: That comes with our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.Industrial Designer: Right, right.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you, however, um there are some changes that I've got from on highUser Interface: Okay. {vocalsound}Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television.User Interface: Okay.Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window. And {vocalsound} they require that the uhUser Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four, um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it. So um, presentations, were you {disfmarker} anybody got, raring to goMarketing: Yeah. Yeah.Project Manager: Raring to go Okay. Good stuff. Mm.Marketing: Um. So how {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: S {gap}Project Manager: Just about.User Interface: Wow. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design.Marketing: {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold itProject Manager: Uh there we go, just screw'em on in. Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} So, after thatProject Manager: now, it was function F_ eight.Marketing: F_ eight. {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight.Project Manager: That's the wee blue one. Blue one F_ eight.Marketing: Okay.Project Manager: Should do it, good one.Marketing: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, me again, Rajan the Marketing Expert. Uh, as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out, sorry, yeah sure.Project Manager: Hold on, sorry. {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead, one at a time.Marketing: Yeah, yeah. Uh actually, sorry I have to see the other {gap}, sorry.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry, uh.Marketing: Yeah, thank you.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh, industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably

Summarize the discussion about the functions that the new remote controls would have.

After a thorough discussion, the team finally reached a consensus that the new design would have seven functions. First, the new remotes would dis-include teletext because that was obsolete. Second, they wanted to integrate the corporate colour and slogan in the new design. Third, speech recognition would be included. Fourth, the new remotes could glow in the dark. Fifth, there would be limited buttons on the remotes. Sixth, the design was organic. Seventh, the new remotes would be with programmability.

group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They know or turn the volume off or something,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}User Interface:'Kay.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} somethingProject Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.Industrial Designer: Right.Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}User Interface: If you find if yIndustrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speakerProject Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}User Interface: That comes with our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.Industrial Designer: Right, right.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.User Interface: Yeah, okay.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,User Interface: Mm.Industrial Designer: Hmm.Project Manager: so I thUser Interface: And the expense.Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.User Interface: Mm.Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably microphone and some some integrated circuits.Project Manager: no Oh right, okay.Industrial Designer: And it'd it'd be a small vocabulary speech recognition system,Project Manager: Is it not the circuits that cost {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: like a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh right, okay.Industrial Designer: {gap}Project Manager: Uh well that kind of takes back the R_F_ {vocalsound} the R_F_ remote sort of idea as well.User Interface: Okay.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um. {vocalsound} Five minutes. Okay. Decisions. Uh, votes, let's vote. Who wants T_F_T_Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No-one does.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Excellent, so we'll go with speech recognition, yeahIndustrial Designer: Okay.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm-hmm, that's cool.Project Manager: Um, speech recognition, limited buttons, organic design. And what else was I thinking of that I haven't written down and therefore fallen out my head,User Interface: UmProject Manager: programmability.Marketing: Glow in dark.Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}User Interface: if it's not too expensive s I think it's a good gimmick.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh o okay.Industrial Designer: Yeah. {gap}Project Manager: And also, integrating the, remember to integrate the logo and the s slogan. {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: Okay, so. Um can you put all these reports in the project documents folder if they're not already in there as well. So, it just helps me summarize them.Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah.Marketing: Here Sure.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And um I'll put any {disfmarker} {gap} I'm I'm putting anything I do in there anyway, so uh {disfmarker}User Interface: And where is it sorryProject Manager: Uh pro uh project documents.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it should be when you saveProject Manager: On A_M_I_ scenario controller.Industrial Designer: on your desktop, so it goes save as, or {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh {gap}.Marketing: Uh it is in shared documentsIndustrial Designer: And then uh hit that little folder up thing again.Project Manager: Where am IMarketing: Projoct uh projector.Industrial Designer: Again.Project Manager: Project

What's the conclusion of the discussion about the function of" glow in dark"

Although there were two options: a light inside the remotes and glow in the dark material, the team finally agreed to choose the later one because it was much cheaper. Besides, it was believed that combined with speech recognition, it would be easy for people to locate their remote controls, thus enhancing the overall market sales.

need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, yes, I have to look at the uh market potential for this product, uh, like consumer likings and everything, what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not Then {disfmarker}Project Manager: P press F_ five to start it first.Marketing: Sorry. Okay. Yeah, I can, okay.Industrial Designer: Hmm.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Jesus.Marketing: Uh then uh the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey. A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings, what they prefer what they not prefer, w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things. And what we got was, we found that {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh, what they th what problems they are having with different uh remote controls available in the market. Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly. They are not so good looking. So, we have to put stress on this, uh we have to take care of this fact also like our design, uh should be appropriate, should be good looking for the consumers. And yes that's wi uh this will definitely, this can definitely put uh uh enhance our sales. Uh and even uh the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high uh pay more for this uh good looking remote controls also. So even if the available market goes for the available {disfmarker} uh even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros, which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably two leading um remote controls at the moment.Project Manager:'Kay.User Interface: You know they're grey, they've I mean this one's got loads of buttons, it's hard to tell from here what they actually do,Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}User Interface: and they don't look very exciting at all. Um, personally I prefer this one just because it's looks easier use, it's a bit more sleek with more of this silver stuff,Project Manager: Mm-hmm.User Interface: um, but there you go, that's what we're up against,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: and I think we can do much better than that.Project Manager: {vocalsound} We hope so.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Of course. {vocalsound}User Interface: Um hang on. F_ five,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: okay, sorry. Personal preferences. Um, well I think we need to l I think the ergonomics is quite um important, umProject Manager: {gap} Yeah, particularly if we've uh there was a bit in Raj's about R_S_I_ and things as well.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Uh-huh. And um I thought not too edgy and like a box, more kind of hand-held more um {vocalsound} not as uh computery andProject Manager: Organic {vocalsound}.User Interface: or organic, yeah, more organic shape I think. {vocalsound} Um simple designs, like the last one we just saw, not too many buttons and as Raj pointed out, only ten percent {disfmarker} fifty percent of people only use ten percent of the buttons,Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: Mm-hmm.User Interface: so I think what we can miss out on the buttons we can make up for in design and and how nice it looks.Project Manager: Sales, {gap}. Okay.User Interface: Um, hand-held and portable I think is portamint is important because T_F_T_ have just um released um I think is it a a remote control for presentations or uh and a big seven inch big screen, anyway, so um {disfmarker}Project

What were the difficulties in applying speech recognition in the new remote controls

According to the Project Manager, it was hard to have speech recognition in remotes and no products in the market now used this function well. There was mainly one reason: the noise interference problem, which was too expensive to solve. Luckily, the User Interface came up with an idea to have something built into the TV that people could press and then it would send out a little signal. The Industrial Designer agreed and proposed to have a microphone by the TV speaker and a transmitter there to send back to their remotes. Such design was subtractive cancellation of the noise.

industrial design of these.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well that's cool. If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control, yeah.Industrial Designer: Right. So,User Interface: Yeah sure.Industrial Designer: I figured, just put'em all together.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_, and umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem, you know, too many buttons. Give it one buttonUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know, for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Right okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Well I like that design. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated, is itIndustrial Designer: Right. So I think I I missed the budget thing,Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it was fifty million EurosUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them Right. {vocalsound} Okay. {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah, not a problem.Marketing: Fifty million was uh profProject Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}Marketing: As a profit.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh okay, so I I mixed those numbers.Project Manager: gotta make profit, so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time.User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay. Well I guess more realistically then, we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing, cheap plastic uh, you know, um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably need not to have any, much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales. So um this is all aboutProject Manager: Okay. {vocalsound}Marketing: uh market potential by me.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Uh, yes, th thank you.Project Manager: Okay, thank you. Um, {vocalsound} follow on with Helen Yeah please.User Interface: Yep, sure, that's cool, um {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out.Project Manager: Oh, so we do yeah.Marketing: Sorry.User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fun and games.Marketing: Sorry.Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough.Marketing: Uh sorry, I have {gap}. {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well.Marketing: Brian, this one also I {gap}. Yeah.Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Thank you very much Brian.User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay.Marketing: If you want me to help, yeah.User Interface: Um, yep.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay, and then what do I press, F_ eightMarketing: Uh F_ eight. Function F_ eight.Project Manager: Function F_ eight.User Interface: Oh right.Marketing: Mm s.User Interface: Okay, cool.Marketing: It's not coming. Function F_ eight, okay.User Interface: Oh.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah. No signal. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer.Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: Computer adjusting, yeah.Project Manager: There you go.User Interface: Okay. Cool.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one, to get it on to the big {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh F_ five.User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do IMarketing: Escape.Project Manager: Um, F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing.User Interface: Okay, so um I'm the interface design designer, know or turn the volume off or something,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}User Interface:'Kay.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually, but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} somethingProject Manager: Ah, that's a good idea.Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep.Industrial Designer: Right.Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly. {vocalsound}User Interface: If you find if yIndustrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know, uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise.User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker, or not a remo I'm sorry, a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote,'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s.User Interface: Mm. Yeah, that's the only thing, yeah.Industrial Designer: But yeah, then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speakerProject Manager: That we should just stick on, yeah.Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}User Interface: That comes with our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right, and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television.Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap.Industrial Designer: Right, right.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Right, right. Um. {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to group persons like uh sorry, I can open it in another way.Project Manager: Okay. Speech recognition.Marketing: Uh, yes. If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not, we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point, like for speech recognition in a remote control.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like, because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five,User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group. So we should look {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm. We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well. {gap}Marketing: Yeah. We can look at that that factor also, so yes. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh, which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual, sort of.Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Mm, mm.Marketing: So, and {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteen to tweMarketing: Yes. I think so. Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control. So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn. They find it again. If you do have this sorta speech interface to it, you don't even need to find it. You just say you know, um whatever you whatever you want the remote for, you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off, you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know, within hearing range. And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job.Project Manager: Uh-huh.User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though, which might make our remote control a bit obsolete.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: Well, hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve. {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job.User Interface: Yeah, okay.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay. {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing. Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that,User Interface: Mm.Industrial Designer: Hmm.Project Manager: so I thUser Interface: And the expense.Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time.User Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen.User Interface: Mm.Project Manager: Um, but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem. Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow

Summarize the whole meeting.

This meeting took up the discussion from the last one. They specified the ideas brought up last time and adapted them according to the market potentials and budget limits. Marketing first reported their findings of market potentials. Altogether, they summarized four conclusions: (1) consumers were willing to spend more for fancy products (2) the current products didn't always match users'operating behaviours (3) a lot of buttons weren't used (4) they were not fun to use. Then, the team came up with a novel feature of automatic speech recognition to retrieve the remotes. In the latter half of the meeting, the team decided that the following functions would be for the new remotes: speech recognition, limited buttons, organic design, programmability, glowing in dark, and integrating the logo and slogan.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't itKirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but

Summarize the discussion about schools causing concern with questions from Irranca-Davies.

According to Kirsty, there were a variety of ways in which schools that needed support or needed to be challenged on their practice would be identified. Basically, they relied on the school categorization system. What's more, in Kirsty's opinion, the school improvement service was a risk-based approach. Luckily, the categorization system on which they depended would continue to evolve to align itself to the curriculum reform and make changes in self-evaluation. It would continue to evolve because it had to be consistent with their overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. What they needed now was a more strategic, longer term approach to reach changes in a school rather than some of the easy-to-fix items that made a school as if it was doing better.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but

What was the method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they did

Now, Estyn was used as part of the accountability system. Since the systems were evolving all the time, the Estyn itself inspection regime was changing as well. Now, they were moving to a system where Estyn would be more regularly in schools. Although there were two systems, they were different and they looked at different things. The categorization system they used now was how they looked for those ways of identifying support for schools.

fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour Short answers.Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that againKirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but

How could the schools that are causing significant concern be identified

According to Kirsty and Huw, the real question was how was it that they didn't identify those schools. Since these schools were not being identified early enough, there was a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Even though they had identified them as needing that extra help, they were not moving at pace away from that system. In Steve's opinion, the importance lied on" What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?" And it brought together what they knew from Estyn, but also, local authorities had knowledge of their schools, and so did consortia. They had got to be better at bringing those together.

fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't itKirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about

What was a level that Kirsty would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales

According to Kirsty, school was going to need a little bit of extra support, so it was not always just a crisis that needed extra support. There were just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. However, it was also right that they had a particular challenge in the secondary sector. That's why they had introduced the new pilot to address those schools. If they carried on doing the same thing, they would keep getting the same results, which was not satisfying enough.

have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting Are Members content Thank you. Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about

Summarize the discussion about the attitudes and opinions on the work of consortia.

According to Hefin, some regional consortia services performed really highly, but there were others that needed to improve. Those consortia shall be seen as working together on a national approach, but being delivered on a regional basis. Also, it had evolved over time, and they were constantly looking for optimum delivery. By taking Education through Regional Working as an example, they had pointed out that ERW as well as the Education Achievement Service EAS was constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. They delivered on a regional basis. They would continue to discuss with ERW what was the optimal way and continued to cooperate with the constituent local authorities about how that shall be organized.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that againKirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in

Why did they take Education through Regional Working as an example

In Hefin's opinion, they took ERW as an example because it did things differently with regard to the four consortia. They were interested in the effectiveness of that organization to deliver for children and for teachers since ERW had got particular challenges. What they were seeing the national consortia do is developing a national approach to school improvement services. What's more, according to Hefin, the regional consortia were not a beast of the Government; they were a beast of the local authorities that had worked together to create a school improvement service that met their needs.

fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that

What's their opinion in intervening Neath Port Talbot and ERW about addressing the issue of safeguarding their schools

Kirsty believed that it was really important for them to understand how Neath Port Talbot intended to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what was a critical time. They wanted to know from Neath Port Talbot how they were going to do that without being part of the organization. Additionally, Kirsty was curious about how they were going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who were receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot were not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about

What's their role in intervening Neath Port Talbot and ERW about addressing the issue of safeguarding their schools

According to Kirsty, they would be" seeking assurances" . It meant that Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to them how they were going to address these problems. However, so far, they had not seen the plans. But if Neath Port Talbot were to push forward and follow on the notice, they would want to see. Now, what they were doing was waiting for their responses.

Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journeyKirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting Are Members content Thank you. we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that

Summarize the discussion about actions towards the document in 2015-" National model for regional working" .

According to Kirsty, it was the current model. Although they failed to persuade the local government to adopt a new national model, the local authorities had already seen the value in it. However, they were at the stage looking to a wholesale review of the national model. Now they were all focusing on the work of implementation. At the same time, they had the risk of losing focus because of the emphasis on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system.

we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluationKirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that--. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that againKirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early--not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in

When would the work of implementation be completed

Now the group was engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, that plan was there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum. Based on the words from Kirsty, they were very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this phrase following the publication. Now they had moved into a relentless focus on implementation. Basically, everything now was an emphasis on successful implementation.

we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children--where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular--. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now Because the research--I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluationKirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course--. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the

What should be expected from reviewing the role of the middle tier

Steve believed that it was set up to build collective efficacy because what people out there were seeing was a confusion of roles in what the regions were doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. They would have collective effort, but they needed to do more within the middle tier.

we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs--for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level--we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at--level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children--Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures--I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge--whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions

What's their opinion about the risk of losing focus

In Kirsty's opinion, it appeared that it was placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. However, there was not a risk from them to lose focus. Absolutely, it was about making sure that there was no duplication, that people were not second-guessing each other's work. There were clear demarcations about who does what in the system. Therefore, there was not a question of losing focus.

Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journeyKirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Sian Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't itKirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the

Summarize the discussion about the long-term trends with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment.

According to Kirsty, they were trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that gave them a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that told only one aspect. They would use the Program for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that came through organizations like OECD. In addition, they believed that all the challenges and changes involved were made for the right reasons. What was crucial was that it was about more intelligent use of data and what was truly telling about the system.

fact that there is PS475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in--. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9. 4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in how we test how our system is doing.Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of timeKirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passesKirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says,'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to--.'We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that--you know--is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines--you know,'We did this and it's resulted in that'--given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say,'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions

What did they think of making improvement but presenting more of a challenge

It was true that the change did make it more challenging. But the changes were made for the right reasons. By taking the example of learning English literature, they had come to a conclusion that they were making those changes because they believed that they were in the best interest of children, and that had to trump ease of comparison.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and we always encourage--local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceivedKirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors'reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's--. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing--. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but

How do they come to conclusions about what was working if that was not presented on a local authority and regional basis

The real question was not about communicating the data, but about challenging people on how the data should be used. The data was still available, but it was a challenge to them about how to use the data. Sometimes, how they presented data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of the system. Therefore, it was about how they used the data. The focus shall be on the more intelligent use and interrogation of the data, and about truly what it was telling us about the system.

is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage--and of children--and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals--were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.Lynne Neagle AM: Sian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basisKirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says,'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.'That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say thatKirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes beKirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following Welsh Government--as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school--requiring special measures or urgent improvement--and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment,'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying--Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying,'Can we put more schools in Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot'It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it--that it actually makes a difference And it's actually--I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know--Steve Davies: I think your important point is about,'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction'And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness--not always a trigger, but the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked aboutSteve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago--just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum--that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's

Was the continuing to publish the local and regional level data contraindicated to what they had said about consortia

According to Kirsty, there was no contradiction at all. They were not in the business of trying to hide the data because it was absolutely in full transparency. It was about how the data was used rather than about hiding data or making that data not available. They needed to dig much, much deeper underneath the data.

Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journeyKirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17. 42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting Are Members content Thank you. top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible. ]--date.Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this PS100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluatedSteve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report--because it is an extensive report--to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair--I hope you'll be pleased to hear this--that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has beenKirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour Short answers.Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter. ] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide

Summarize the whole meeting.

Basically, the Children, Young People and Education Committee's meeting was about the inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. In this meeting, the Minister for Education, Kirsty and Director of Education, Steve answered many specific questions and expressed their opinions about the current situations. Altogether, they had talked about the school categorization system which has been used right now, the curriculum reform, changes and challenges. Also, they spent lots of time discussing regional consortia services that the way it worked and how they could be improved. Although now they failed to persuade the government to adopt the new model, they were optimistic about the future application.

this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions to present today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect on systemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 our obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and our commitments under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action. They specifically reference the RCMP violation of UNDRIP in its actions on Wet'suwet'en territory and ask the government to commit to actually living the principles embodied in UNDRIP.The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Hardie.Mr. Ken Hardie (FleetwoodPort Kells, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am presenting a petition on behalf of the one in a million Canadians who suffer severe and adverse effects from vaccinations. GuillainBarre syndrome is very debilitating, and this petition seeks the setting up of a no-fault accident or compensation system to help offset the loss of work, the loss of wages and the loss of quality of life that many of these people suffer. I'm pleased to present this petition pursuant to Standing Order 36.The Chair: Mr. Trudel, you have the floor.Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Chair, culture is the soul of a people. Over the past 20years or so, culture, especially music, has never been as accessible as it is now. Paradoxically, creators'incomes have never been so low. The advent of digital technology has completely overturned the system for distributing the wealth generated by creators for the benefit of various Web stakeholders, many of whom are billionaires. This petition addresses these problems and proposes realistic solutions. The first is to set a minimum royalty model for streaming platforms for artists. The second is to update the existing private copying system. The third is for Internet and cell phone providers who sell their services as direct access to culture to share their profits with artists. The fourth is that the GAFAMs have to pay taxes on their services. Six thousand people have already signed the first version of recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1. 4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibblingHon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1. 4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given

Summarize the debates on the governmental issue of allocating the fund and dealing with the systematic racism.

When it comes to the governmental issues, some of the members, for example, Justin Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh had a heated debate over the way of the distribution of the fund. The root of their debate was the problem of systematic racism in the RCMP, and many other institutions at home. Therefore, a revolution might be needed in those institutions. In terms of the revolution, Jagmeet Singh pointed out that the governmental fund should be allocated to medical care instead of RCMP, for that during the outbreak of COVID-19, emergent needs had shown in the medical field.

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need itRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions to present today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect on systemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1. 4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibblingHon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1. 4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the not relent from pushing my political colleagues to summon the courage necessary to implement policies that lead to environmental, economic and social justice.The Chair: I now give the floor to Mr. Blaney.Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Mr. Chair, here is a beautiful story, the story of a woman from Bellechasse, a courageous young mother from Saint-Malachie, Marie-ChristineGoupil. With three children, including the eldest daughter with a disability, and realizing that her daughter with a disability had special clothing needs, she decided to go into business to meet the needs of other parents who, like her, were facing their child's clothing challenges. Last week, she presented her Handy clothing collection on the show Dans l'il du dragon. It was a very emotional moment for the audience and the dragons. They were so touched that they decided to give her the amount she wanted without diluting her shares. The video of her presentation has already been viewed over 1million times on social networks. Marie-ChristineGoupil has discovered a passion for entrepreneurship and has moved and inspired many people with her passionate and courageous attitude. Congratulations, Ms. Goupil, your example makes us proud.The Chair: Mr. Blanchet, you have the floor.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I lend my voice to the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec-Labrador, GhislainPicard, whose message is as follows: There have been no fewer than 14reports and conclusions of commissions of inquiry since1967 highlighting major problems in relations between law enforcement agencies and indigenous people. Each time, the conclusions have been overwhelming and highlight a disturbing reality. The justice system has failed indigenous people. Are you going to respond, as you too often do, by moving on to the next one, or are you going to do what we expect you to do,

What did JustinTrudeau elaborate on the governmental fund when discussing the issue of allocating the fund and dealing with systematic racism

When talking about the issue of allocating the governmental fund, Yves-Fran questioned why their prime minister at present was acting like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right, he further pointed out that the government was meant to use the $14 million fund to interfere with the political affair of Quebec. But according to Justin Trudeau, the $14 million fund would actually be used to guarantee their people's safety during the pandemic outbreak.

continue to work with provinces to make sure that we're getting Canadians the help they need.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Canadians cannot wait. He has run down the clock on parliamentary sittings and he still refuses to make these changes to get more help to Canadians. Today, we learned that Telus has installed Huawei technology in downtown Ottawa. There are over 80 sites across the national capital region with Huawei technology installed. Some of these sites are very near sensitive government institutions, like government departments, the National Research Council, RCMP headquarters and the Bank of Canada. How long has the Prime Minister known that Huawei technology has been installed in the Ottawa areaRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, first off, on the issue of Parliament, it has been meeting four times a week over the past many weeks, and members of the opposition have been able to continue to ask questions on COVID-19 and a broad range of subjects. Moreover, every two weeks the finance department puts forward at the finance committee the full transparent measures that we've taken, so that parliamentarians can study them. We are continuing to work in this crisis. At the same timeMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Answer the question. The Chair: I'm sorryRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: in regard to Huawei technology there are strict rules for companies to follow and we assume they will all follow those.The Chair: We'll pause for a second and stop the clock. I want to remind the honourable members who are joining us virtually that heckling really does disrupt the whole session. Your face does come up and we do see who it is, so I just want to make sure that you're aware of that. Now we'll go back to Mr. Scheer. We have a minute and 10 recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1. 4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibblingHon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1. 4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need itRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety our obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and our commitments under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action. They specifically reference the RCMP violation of UNDRIP in its actions on Wet'suwet'en territory and ask the government to commit to actually living the principles embodied in UNDRIP.The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Hardie.Mr. Ken Hardie (FleetwoodPort Kells, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am presenting a petition on behalf of the one in a million Canadians who suffer severe and adverse effects from vaccinations. GuillainBarre syndrome is very debilitating, and this petition seeks the setting up of a no-fault accident or compensation system to help offset the loss of work, the loss of wages and the loss of quality of life that many of these people suffer. I'm pleased to present this petition pursuant to Standing Order 36.The Chair: Mr. Trudel, you have the floor.Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Chair, culture is the soul of a people. Over the past 20years or so, culture, especially music, has never been as accessible as it is now. Paradoxically, creators'incomes have never been so low. The advent of digital technology has completely overturned the system for distributing the wealth generated by creators for the benefit of various Web stakeholders, many of whom are billionaires. This petition addresses these problems and proposes realistic solutions. The first is to set a minimum royalty model for streaming platforms for artists. The second is to update the existing private copying system. The third is for Internet and cell phone providers who sell their services as direct access to culture to share their profits with artists. The fourth is that the GAFAMs have to pay taxes on their services. Six thousand people have already signed the first version of

What did JustinTrudeau think of the revolution in those national institutions when talking about the governmental issue of allocating the fund and dealing with systematic racism

When discussing the governmental issue of dealing with systematic racism, Justin Trudeau mentioned that actually there had been serious systematic racism in most national institutions for the past two years, so he called for a revolution in those organizations to welcome equal cooperation with the black colleagues and indigenous communities. One of those institutions, RCMP, had another problem of the inappropriate fund allocation. According to Justin Trudeau, during the outbreak of the pandemic, the fund should be paid to the medical system but not the policing work.

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need itRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll

What did the group talk about the uncertainty of Canadian economy and what the government should do during the special period

Justin Trudeau was confident about the economic recovery after the pandemic, however, Cathy McLeod and Mona Fortier and some other members did not agree with him for that they thought Canada was undergoing an extreme uncertain time during which no one could foresee a bright future unless the prime minister kept the revenue report public. Furthermore, statistics showed that actually Canada had suffered decline in revenue in both the first and second season this year, and the forestry industry even reported depression before the outbreak. Various evidence showed a great challenge to the Canadian economy.

Dreeshen: Thank you. Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau has repeatedly asked stakeholders to send her data about the impacts of the carbon tax on farmers, so this is exactly what they have been doing. The Atlantic Grains Council, the Grain Farmers of Ontario, Producteurs de grains du Qubec and the Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association issued a joint statement at the beginning of this year in which they estimated that the cumulative indirect inflation of carbon tax on farm costs will be $14. 50 an acre this year, with that cost escalating by more than double by 2022 to almost $30 an acre. These are huge numbers. Why does the Liberal government continue to ignore the facts presented to it and continue to misrepresent the truth to CanadiansHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madame Chair, I can assure you that we have paid close attention to all the information that has been provided to us and that our calculation was also based on this information provided by provinces and different stakeholders. Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Our government has been very open and transparent about our pollution pricing plan. The department used data from stakeholders and provinces Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you very much, Madam Chair Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: as well as the 2019 agricultural tax data to estimate the average cost of pollution pricing associated with grain drying at up to 0. 4% of overall operating costs. It is important to remember that we have put in place many special provisions Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Madam Chair Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: like exempting farm fuel and providing other financial supports for farmers.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr. Dreeshen, I am watching the time, and the minister is allowed to answer for the same amount of time that you used to ask the question. Therefore, I would hope that we would allow her to finish. She has finished, and unfortunately the time is up. The committee now stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon. repeat my question. What does the army have to do that is more important than helping caregivers save the lives of those who built QuebecThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons is asked to keep his answer brief.Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Madam Chair, the Government of Canada is there and will continue to be there to help the people who built Quebec. The Government of Canada will work with the Quebec government to make that happen.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for Red DeerMountain View, Mr. Dreeshen.Mr. Earl Dreeshen (Red DeerMountain View, CPC): Thank you so much. Madam Chair, on May 14 I asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Liberal government would put aside its usual campaign rhetoric and recognize the very detrimental impact the carbon tax is having on farmers across this country. Minister Bibeau proudly noted that according to their data, the average cost of the carbon tax per farm across Canada is $210 to $819. We know that these numbers are completely unfounded and are not based on any factual evidence. The fact is that the Liberal government's own Parliamentary Budget Officer has estimated that at $25 per tonne, the cost for an 855-acre crop farm in Alberta is well over $6,000. The office came up with that using the government's statistics from the 2016 agricultural census. Madam Chair, the evidence is right in front of the minister. When will this Liberal government come clean with Canadians and recognize the disastrous impact the carbon tax is having on Canada's critical agriculture and agri-food sectorHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Madam Chair, our pollution pricing policy is designed to grow a clean economy. To support this sector, we have put a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I in place the following measures. Emissions from livestock and crop production are not priced. Farm fuels and fuels from cardlock facilities are exempt, and there is a partial rebate for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. Our government has been very open and transparent about our pollution pricing plan. We will do a review of our pollution pricing system in 2020, focused on competitiveness issues in trade-exposed industries such as agriculture. It is also important to remember that this is about tackling climate change and that 100% of the revenues stay in the province. We will continue to support our farmers and food processors as they provide an essential service across Canada.Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau keeps talking about wanting to protect Canadians'environment. Well, the truth is that Canada's farmers, ranchers and processors have for years demonstrated their ability to deliver meaningful reductions in emissions and to safeguard the environment through the adoption of new technologies, education and innovative management practices, but the government ignores these efforts. Will the minister at the very least admit to Canadians that Canadian farmers are unable to pass on the cost of the carbon tax to consumers and instead have to absorb those extra costs out of their own pocketsHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madam Chair, allow me to explain again our government's position on pollution pricing. The price and method were developed so we could build an increasingly clean economy. We put a number of measures in place to help the agriculture sector. Emissions from animal and plant production aren't taxed. Farm fuels and fuels delivered to off-farm points-of-sale are alsoMr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have another question.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I am watching the time, Mr. Dreeshan. You have a couple more seconds.Mr. Earl

What did Cathy McLeod think of the forestry industry when talking about the uncertainty of Canadian economy and what the government should do during the special period

When talking about the uncertainty of Canadian economy and what the government should do, Cathy McLeod mentioned that the forestry industry even suffered depression before the outbreak of the COVID-19. The plants closed, and thousands of workers were unemployed. Meanwhile, both the art industry and fishery industry had received support from the government. Therefore, Cathy McLeod asked for more attention to the forestry to help them go through the difficulty. In response to her petition, ministers said that they did consider a lot of the solutions, including further investment and industrial revolution.

repeat my question. What does the army have to do that is more important than helping caregivers save the lives of those who built QuebecThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons is asked to keep his answer brief.Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Madam Chair, the Government of Canada is there and will continue to be there to help the people who built Quebec. The Government of Canada will work with the Quebec government to make that happen.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for Red DeerMountain View, Mr. Dreeshen.Mr. Earl Dreeshen (Red DeerMountain View, CPC): Thank you so much. Madam Chair, on May 14 I asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Liberal government would put aside its usual campaign rhetoric and recognize the very detrimental impact the carbon tax is having on farmers across this country. Minister Bibeau proudly noted that according to their data, the average cost of the carbon tax per farm across Canada is $210 to $819. We know that these numbers are completely unfounded and are not based on any factual evidence. The fact is that the Liberal government's own Parliamentary Budget Officer has estimated that at $25 per tonne, the cost for an 855-acre crop farm in Alberta is well over $6,000. The office came up with that using the government's statistics from the 2016 agricultural census. Madam Chair, the evidence is right in front of the minister. When will this Liberal government come clean with Canadians and recognize the disastrous impact the carbon tax is having on Canada's critical agriculture and agri-food sectorHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Madam Chair, our pollution pricing policy is designed to grow a clean economy. To support this sector, we have put included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given

What did Mona Fortier think of the governmental support when discussing the uncertainty of Canadian economy

Since many members called for more governmental support for their respective industry, MonaFortier, as the Minister of Middle-Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance responded that Canadian government had financially supported more than 2. 5 million jobs with wage subsidy. In addition, she promised to lay stress on supporting the industry, the workers, and all the Canadians in their next working phase, as well as keeping the revenue report updated and public.

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1. 4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibblingHon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1. 4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need itRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll

Summarize the measures to guarantee social stability, including reducing the rent for those individual businesses and strictly restraining the weapon.

The group mentioned that during the pandemic, countless individual businesses reported bankruptcy, which would do harm to social stability. Therefore, according to Mona Fortier, Canadian government had tried a lot to support them. However, not so many people were willing to accept the rent reduction, indicating that the policy might not be very effective. Another problem related to social safety was the handgun smuggling. Bill Blair, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, in response to the firearms seizure issue, promised to implement a stronger gun control in the near future.

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need itRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1. 4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibblingHon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1. 4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the

Why did Bob Saroya disagree with the government when talking about reducing the rent for those individual businesses

The government said that they had carried out a plan of reducing the rent for those individual business to go through the harsh time of the pandemic, however, as Bob Saroya pointed out, not so many people were willing to accept the little fund from the government, which made the plan not effective at all. Mona Fortier, in response to him, promised to follow up and monitor those businessmen and lords, as well as pay more attention to their CMHC support program.

continue to work with provinces to make sure that we're getting Canadians the help they need.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Canadians cannot wait. He has run down the clock on parliamentary sittings and he still refuses to make these changes to get more help to Canadians. Today, we learned that Telus has installed Huawei technology in downtown Ottawa. There are over 80 sites across the national capital region with Huawei technology installed. Some of these sites are very near sensitive government institutions, like government departments, the National Research Council, RCMP headquarters and the Bank of Canada. How long has the Prime Minister known that Huawei technology has been installed in the Ottawa areaRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, first off, on the issue of Parliament, it has been meeting four times a week over the past many weeks, and members of the opposition have been able to continue to ask questions on COVID-19 and a broad range of subjects. Moreover, every two weeks the finance department puts forward at the finance committee the full transparent measures that we've taken, so that parliamentarians can study them. We are continuing to work in this crisis. At the same timeMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Answer the question. The Chair: I'm sorryRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: in regard to Huawei technology there are strict rules for companies to follow and we assume they will all follow those.The Chair: We'll pause for a second and stop the clock. I want to remind the honourable members who are joining us virtually that heckling really does disrupt the whole session. Your face does come up and we do see who it is, so I just want to make sure that you're aware of that. Now we'll go back to Mr. Scheer. We have a minute and 10 and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions to present today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect on systemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns was the Prime Minister on October21,2019 He received a minority mandate from Quebeckers and Canadians. Why is he behaving like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine rightRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: I've heard the Conservative Party and the Bloc Qubcois throw their accusations around. They don't point out that the House of Commons did indeed give its consent to extend the mandate of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic until the end of June. Three parties agreed, which was the right thing to do in the context of this minority government. We've been working with the other parties. However, as they did not get the results they wanted, they complained. Unfortunately, they too are part of a minority Parliament and must respect the voice of the majority of parliamentarians, just as we do.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I might have been tempted, but that's unlikely to happen because the Prime Minister isn't me, he's him. It's therefore up to him to bring people together, open a dialogue and recall Parliament. All we were asking for was the opportunity to talk for an hour or two. However, suddenly he doesn't want to play anymore. It's not working anymore, and there's something a bit strange about that. In addition, the government wants to buy the right to interfere in provincial and Quebec jurisdictions for $14billion. However, Quebec and a number of provinces are refusing to allow it to interfere in their jurisdictions and are asking that this money be paid to them unconditionally. Is the Prime Minister trying to take advantage of the crisis or is he trying to create a constitutional crisisRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the safety of Canadians is the responsibility of all levels of government. That's why we have proposed a $14billion not relent from pushing my political colleagues to summon the courage necessary to implement policies that lead to environmental, economic and social justice.The Chair: I now give the floor to Mr. Blaney.Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Mr. Chair, here is a beautiful story, the story of a woman from Bellechasse, a courageous young mother from Saint-Malachie, Marie-ChristineGoupil. With three children, including the eldest daughter with a disability, and realizing that her daughter with a disability had special clothing needs, she decided to go into business to meet the needs of other parents who, like her, were facing their child's clothing challenges. Last week, she presented her Handy clothing collection on the show Dans l'il du dragon. It was a very emotional moment for the audience and the dragons. They were so touched that they decided to give her the amount she wanted without diluting her shares. The video of her presentation has already been viewed over 1million times on social networks. Marie-ChristineGoupil has discovered a passion for entrepreneurship and has moved and inspired many people with her passionate and courageous attitude. Congratulations, Ms. Goupil, your example makes us proud.The Chair: Mr. Blanchet, you have the floor.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I lend my voice to the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec-Labrador, GhislainPicard, whose message is as follows: There have been no fewer than 14reports and conclusions of commissions of inquiry since1967 highlighting major problems in relations between law enforcement agencies and indigenous people. Each time, the conclusions have been overwhelming and highlight a disturbing reality. The justice system has failed indigenous people. Are you going to respond, as you too often do, by moving on to the next one, or are you going to do what we expect you to do,

What did Bill Blair respond to the firearms seizure issue at Pearson airport when talking about the measures to guarantee social stability

According to Bill Blair, gun violence in any of the communities was unacceptable, and it was important that governments and communities took steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals, especially during the special period of the pandemic outbreak. In terms of the gun smuggling, he also said that in order to thoroughly ban the violence, they had to keep an extremely strong attitude and carry out strict laws over the gun issue.

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 he please confirm whether Veterans Affairs has a plan to address the claims backlog, yes or noHon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Madam Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question, and yes, we've indicated that it's a major priority. That's why I'm so pleased that the supplementary estimates contained just under $90 million to address hiring more staff, improving the process and making sure that we attack the backlog in an appropriate manner.Mr. Alex Ruff: Madame Chair, does that plan exist in written formHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well, Madam Chair, I can assure you that it's in the supplementary estimates, and of course, this money isThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: The question is about the plan, not how much money has been allocated. I am asking for the written plan on how to address the backlog.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madam Chair, I can tell my honourable colleague that the money is in the supplementary estimates, and with the money we're able to attack this problem in an appropriate manner, and that's what is important for our veterans.Mr. Alex Ruff: The deputy minister committed on March 10 that a written plan would be provided to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs within a month and made public. Did the deputy minister or the department provide the minister that plan within a monthHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madame Chair, I'm sure my honourable colleague wants an appropriate plan and he would be fully aware this just under $90 million would make a big difference in the plan to attack the backlog. WeThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: Thank you, Chair. Therefore, my question is, if the deputy minister in the department provided him with an appropriate plan or this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions to present today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect on systemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more

Summarize the inquiries towards Service Canada and their cooperation with Quebec.

As John Williamson, the member from New Brunswick Southwest mentioned, what Service Canada had done was far from enough. Service Canada should be responsible for helping their people to adjust to the post-pandemic situation more quickly and recovering the national economy. The government members tried to persuade him that the government was doing a lot to make the revenue condition clear to the public, and their support fund was already prepared. Also in terms of the support fund, Bergeron went on to ask for a closer cooperation between Canadian government and Quebec to guarantee the regional development and stability during the pandemic.

not only to engage fans but to generate much-needed revenue. Will the government commit now to supporting the sports and gaming industries by supporting my private member's bill, Bill C-218Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, I've had the opportunity on many occasions to speak to members of Parliament and also to mayors and councillors and people living in border communities where there are casinos. They've raised this issue a number of times. We've listened very carefully to the concerns that have been expressed by them. I would like to advise the member that I look forward to the opportunity for a careful examination of his bill. We are at all times concerned about maintaining the integrity of the gaming industry within our community. That's the best way to protect Canadians. At the same time, we will examine his bill with all of the necessary attention to make sure it's given full consideration.Mr. Kevin Waugh: Madam Chair, it's the first time in history that we've had the five professional leagues in this country joining together for this bill. Newspapers rely, as we all know, on advertising for a significant portion of their revenue. This includes the usual flyers as well as in-paper ads. I've heard major concerns from a number of newspapers in this country about competition they're receiving today from Canada Post, which is offering massive free postage services. In fact, I have one of their ads here, which says that the first 6,000 pieces of postage are 100% free. If the government is genuine about wanting to ensure that newspapers and journals can succeed in this country, why are you allowing Canada Post to use its monopoly power to actually threaten local newspapers in this countryHon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair, and I thank the a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given he please confirm whether Veterans Affairs has a plan to address the claims backlog, yes or noHon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Madam Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question, and yes, we've indicated that it's a major priority. That's why I'm so pleased that the supplementary estimates contained just under $90 million to address hiring more staff, improving the process and making sure that we attack the backlog in an appropriate manner.Mr. Alex Ruff: Madame Chair, does that plan exist in written formHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well, Madam Chair, I can assure you that it's in the supplementary estimates, and of course, this money isThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: The question is about the plan, not how much money has been allocated. I am asking for the written plan on how to address the backlog.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madam Chair, I can tell my honourable colleague that the money is in the supplementary estimates, and with the money we're able to attack this problem in an appropriate manner, and that's what is important for our veterans.Mr. Alex Ruff: The deputy minister committed on March 10 that a written plan would be provided to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs within a month and made public. Did the deputy minister or the department provide the minister that plan within a monthHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madame Chair, I'm sure my honourable colleague wants an appropriate plan and he would be fully aware this just under $90 million would make a big difference in the plan to attack the backlog. WeThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: Thank you, Chair. Therefore, my question is, if the deputy minister in the department provided him with an appropriate plan or and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I

Why did John Williamson disagree with the government when putting forward inquiries towards Service Canada

Since there was a lot of absence in public service during the pandemic outbreak, John Williamson thought the Service Canada should be to blame for their irresponsibility. Mona Fortier justified themselves by illustrating that the government was always supporting the families, the industries, and the workers by offering support funds. However, what the public would like to see was complete and exact statistics of the financial support from the government, but not always claiming that" they were doing hard" .

included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to ParliamentHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2. 5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Bergeron.Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr. Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds'interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpickingThe Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solutionHon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more the Internet will be available in his municipality. It is not complicated. What does the government plan to do so that rural municipalities across Canada can have access to the Internet as soon as possible What is its planHon. Maryam Monsef: We are working with partners across the country to ensure that every Canadian household is connected to a high-quality, accessible and affordable high-speed Internet service. Madam Chair, I assure my colleagues that we share the same goal, and we will work with all our partners across the country to ensure every Canadian household has accessThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr. Gnreux, you have the floor.Mr. Bernard Gnreux: MadamChair, I am still not getting a specific answer. According to the government's plan, when will rural Canadian businesses and households be connectedThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I would ask the honourable minister to provide a brief answer.Hon. Maryam Monsef: Madam Chair, those plans are under way, and we will have more to share in the coming days.Mr. Bernard Gnreux: It seems that the Minister of Rural Economic Development plans to announce a new plan this week. Can she tell us how this program will differ from the Connect to Innovate program, which is already in place Can the minister tell us whether her program will solve the problem of the 25square kilometre hexagonal zones, which unfortunately make many projects ineligible for the CRTC's broadband fundHon. Maryam Monsef: Madam Chair, I'm pleased to share with my colleague that the model he's referring to, the hexagon model, is no more. Our maps are much more precise now to ensure that we do not leave Canadians behind.Mr. Bernard Gnreux: MadamChair, this year, the Canada summer jobs program is a real fiasco. I think all my colleagues will agree with me. On May13,100jobs its fair share of contractsHon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): I'd like to thank the member for her question. Davie is certainly a strong and trusted partner that works very hard to help our government get results for Canadians. Building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for cost estimates to change throughout the procurement project. It's important to make sure additional funding is available for the joint support ships project to ensure the navy's vessels are delivered.Mrs. Julie Vignola: We are talking about $1. 5billion, here. In the beginning, eight years ago, the project was supposed to cost $2. 6billion. There can't be much missing when the cost overrun is double the initial estimate. Why haven't the ships been delivered yet Why is Davie still not seen as a trusted partnerThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Minister, please keep your answer brief.Hon. Anita Anand: Once again, I would point out that building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for the cost estimate to change for a procurement project as large as this one. I know that Davie works very hard, and we also believe it is an outstanding partner.The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): It is now over to the honourable member for Montcalm, Mr. Thriault.Mr. Luc Thriault (Montcalm, BQ): Madam Chair, in Quebec, 12,000people have begun their training to work in residential and long-term care centres. They will be ready for duty in mid-September. In the meantime, we need the support of the army, which is helping us save lives. The dedication of the members of the armed forces is paramount, and I want to extend my heartfelt thanks. The government extended their mission until June26, which is only 10days away. What does the

What did Bergeron think of the cooperation between two levels of government when discussing the inquiries towards Service Canada and their cooperation with Quebec

When it comes to the cooperation between two levels of government, Bergeron said that Canadian government once promised to offer $14 million to support Quebec and other provinces to go through the difficulty, but only in targeted transfers. Notwithstanding how promising it seemed, under the current situation, what they needed might be an unconditional transfer, especially towards the medical care system. Under the pressure of the people, the government had to reconsider their cooperation of the armed forces in the CHSLDs, as well as their support for Quebeckers.

beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2. 5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8. 4million CanadiansThe Chair: We are returning to Mr. Deltell.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for CanadaHon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an updateThe Chair: Mr. Deltell has the floor.Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost CanadiansHon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more him.Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U. S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this groupHon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robustMr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U. S. in joining this economic prosperity groupHon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularlyThe Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the sameHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I continue to work with provinces to make sure that we're getting Canadians the help they need.Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Canadians cannot wait. He has run down the clock on parliamentary sittings and he still refuses to make these changes to get more help to Canadians. Today, we learned that Telus has installed Huawei technology in downtown Ottawa. There are over 80 sites across the national capital region with Huawei technology installed. Some of these sites are very near sensitive government institutions, like government departments, the National Research Council, RCMP headquarters and the Bank of Canada. How long has the Prime Minister known that Huawei technology has been installed in the Ottawa areaRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, first off, on the issue of Parliament, it has been meeting four times a week over the past many weeks, and members of the opposition have been able to continue to ask questions on COVID-19 and a broad range of subjects. Moreover, every two weeks the finance department puts forward at the finance committee the full transparent measures that we've taken, so that parliamentarians can study them. We are continuing to work in this crisis. At the same timeMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Answer the question. The Chair: I'm sorryRight Hon. Justin Trudeau: in regard to Huawei technology there are strict rules for companies to follow and we assume they will all follow those.The Chair: We'll pause for a second and stop the clock. I want to remind the honourable members who are joining us virtually that heckling really does disrupt the whole session. Your face does come up and we do see who it is, so I just want to make sure that you're aware of that. Now we'll go back to Mr. Scheer. We have a minute and 10 far away from the Prime Minister, and I'm sorry, but Andrew Scheer used to be the Speaker of the House and should show better decorum.The Chair: We have a point of order from Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, on the same point of order, it is disgusting for the leader of the Green Party to use decorum as an excuse to interrupt the Leader of the Opposition in the middle of critical lines of questioning. The leader of the Green Party knows the rules of the House and shouldn't be abusing them to advance a partisan agenda.The Chair: We're getting into debate. I do want to point out that the time had run out. We're now moving on to the next line of questions. On a point of order, Mr. Scheer.Hon. Andrew Scheer: I appreciate the honourable leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May, for that reminder. When I was Speaker I always appreciated her help and advice about how to improve decorum in here. I just want to say to the member, and to all members, that the reason that I cannot control myself is that the Prime Minister used the word embarrassment in answering a foreign affairs question, and it just made me think of the India trip.The Chair: I believe we're getting into debate and arguments. Mr. Blanchet, you have the floor.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr. Chair, while the Greens and the Conservatives are saying that they'll be waiting outside after the meeting, I will ask a question. The Prime Minister has extended the Canada emergency response benefit, and that's good news, but it's not enough. Last week in the House, the government said it was urgent to fight fraud. For us, it was also urgent to adjust the CERB to the needs of the tourism, arts he please confirm whether Veterans Affairs has a plan to address the claims backlog, yes or noHon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Madam Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question, and yes, we've indicated that it's a major priority. That's why I'm so pleased that the supplementary estimates contained just under $90 million to address hiring more staff, improving the process and making sure that we attack the backlog in an appropriate manner.Mr. Alex Ruff: Madame Chair, does that plan exist in written formHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well, Madam Chair, I can assure you that it's in the supplementary estimates, and of course, this money isThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: The question is about the plan, not how much money has been allocated. I am asking for the written plan on how to address the backlog.Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madam Chair, I can tell my honourable colleague that the money is in the supplementary estimates, and with the money we're able to attack this problem in an appropriate manner, and that's what is important for our veterans.Mr. Alex Ruff: The deputy minister committed on March 10 that a written plan would be provided to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs within a month and made public. Did the deputy minister or the department provide the minister that plan within a monthHon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madame Chair, I'm sure my honourable colleague wants an appropriate plan and he would be fully aware this just under $90 million would make a big difference in the plan to attack the backlog. WeThe Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.Mr. Alex Ruff: Thank you, Chair. Therefore, my question is, if the deputy minister in the department provided him with an appropriate plan or

Summarize the whole meeting.

The meeting was about the potential consequences of the COVID-19 in Canada. The members put forward several petitions to ask for further attention for the people in need, say, the children, the workers who would suffer unemployment, and the creators who made a living on artworks, and also many other stakeholders from all walks of life, trying to ensure the life quality of their people during such a harsh time. Some of the group members mentioned some social problems, including the economic depression, racial discrimination, social security, and the environmental pollution, to call for a maintenance of the wealthy and healthy community in Canada. Through the discussion, it could be found that fortunately, some of the problems had been dealt with extra funds and cooperation with other related organizations.